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Based on the liner notes of the '70s Houston Opera Company production of the revised "Treemonisha", the opera was in fact never staged in Joplin's lifetime. The closest he came was a brief run-through at a Harlem theatre which was more of a rehearsal than a performance, and was by all accounts a disaster. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.107.50.100 ( talk • contribs) 17:23, January 4, 2006 (UTC)
I am spending way too much here... I did come across a link, it says he was born January 1867, what we have to find out exact monthm i do not expect exact date... if there is somebody who lives in the area where joplin was born, go, check historical records, it would be good to know the month, if he was 50, that would be nice, symbolic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.220.171 ( talk • contribs) 23 November 2006
Just a quick note: some one should corect the mistake which is udner the picture of this guy: Born June 1859 - January 1868
As you can see, there is 1859... Well, now, it is not, according to the article. Cheers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuxan ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 26 December 2006
I attempted to add Scott Joplin, Complete Piano Rags, by David A. Jasen, ISBN 0-486-25807-6, but was unable to do so. I did include it in the Sheet Music section User:W8IMP 0517, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The year of Joplin's birth keeps being changed back and forth. People changing or wishing to change it, please site sources for this info, thanks. -- Infrogmation 06:33, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say that the Scott Joplin International Ragtime Foundation probably has the date of his birth closest. He is, after all, their namesake. Check out http://www.scottjoplin.org/biography.htm. Should the birthdate possilibities listed be changed to between June 1867 and mid-January 1868?
It seems to me that this article might be better served by being broken into subtopics--unfortunately, no time to do it tonight... -- Dvyost 01:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This page seems to me to be an unlikely target for vandalism, yet it gets far, far more than its fair share. Odd. Ben-w 07:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Much of Joplin's music, when you really analyze it appears to be more in the vain of folk-inspired Romantic music or simply late 19th-century Romantic composition, rather than ragtime. I think characterizing Joplin as solely a composer of ragtime is insulting to the man and his legacy--its very clear that Joplin always strove to be viewed and accepted as something greater than just a mere composer of toe-thumping bar tunes, but American society at the time simply couldn't accept an educated African American man anything other than that...just look at Treemonisha--it's certainly more musically and stylistically diverse and in a lot of ways fantastically better than what Gershwin was writing a bit later in the 20th century and Gershiwn is always talked about as having written the first true American opera. I think in some instances aspects of Treemonisha, for example the ballet the "Frolic of the Bears," compare more favorably to other nationalistic/folk-inspired Romantic music of the late 19th and early 20th century (i.e. Grieg's Peer Gynt incidental music) than ragtime. Another of his most complex and arguably best compositions, "Bethena", which is a concert waltz, is by any standard extremely impressive and comapres favorably to some of the great Chopin waltzes. Unfortunately, people being unable to accept Joplin as anything other than a Ragtime composer generally barbarously mis-orchestrate Bethena into some sort of ragtime jig, which is rather sad.
At any rate, I just think something is lacking in this article when there really is no mention of how diverse his compositions actually were, and the fact that his composition bears many of the hallmarks of the best of European and American romantic music being written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, rather than just simply ordinary ragtime. - 68.79.195.19 20:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there should be some kind of recognition of the extent Joplin was able to create works (such as "Bethena" or "Magnetic Rag") which were very much greater than mere Ragtime. Not being a musicologist I don't have the expertise to go into the technical detail, however. Should this be within the "Legacy" section perhaps if it were demonstrable, and not just POV? Major Bloodnok 23:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
On reflection, I think that there should be a section such as "musical development", detailing Joplin's, erm, development as a composer. I'll see what I can come up with when I have the chance. Also, it would follow that his compositions should be listed by year composed and /or thematically rather than alphabetically. Perhaps this should be on a different page as with other classical composers? Major Bloodnok 11:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Amended the "works" section to list works by publication date, in line with other composers. Major Bloodnok 12:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
An anon on rotating ip#s keeps putting in that Joplin was "the founder of ragtime". Once they sited [1]. As Joplin was not the first to create works in ragtime, nor made any such claim to have founded or invented the form, this is inaccurate and inappropriate, even if some poorly written tourist site has such a claim. -- Infrogmation 22:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the place of birth has been changed. Is there any proof of this? Where is the source of the information? Available information seems to indicate that there is no definitive proof either way. Also, as Infrogmation shows, it is simply wrong to say that Joplin was the founder of Ragtime. Major Bloodnok 00:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If you recall alan freen, he gave name to rock n roll, black american artists called it by different names and it was not white music, but combination... ok... now... I agree with you guys, it's possible he was not THE FOUNDER BUT HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN FOUNDING this kind of music, the birth... www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Joplin-S.html hard to say, but current version (i corrected town) sounds much better, keep in mind, these things get lost over time you know, that's all. That's normal, sad but true. There are some sources which claim he was born january 1857, go figure. Anyways, hopefully current should be ok. But yea, ragtime belongs to him. Remember, during his time, it was called something else, there was ragtime, but it was not definitive.-Nov 20
[2] gives his birthplace as "probably at Caves Springs, near Linden, Texas"; [3] says "the place of his birth in east Texas is a matter of some debate." I have changed the article accordingly unless new definitive evidence has put an end to the debate. -- Infrogmation 14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
well, provide some evidence already, otherwise this is vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.0.3 ( talk) 21-Nov-2006 13:%3
I suggest you stop playing around with this article and STOP REMOVING relevant articles, because I will not allow that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 ( talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:13 I would like to know... POSSIBLY born near Linder, WHAT IS THAT, IS THAT MATERIAL FOR ENCYCLOPEDIA? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 ( talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:19
Ok, I put the link there, which should STAY, ok... now, what are you asking me, most of the people will agree he was born in Linden, so no use to put probably. I am a ragtime musician as well.
I have been the second one to remove anon's description of Joplin's music as "jazz". Calling Joplin's ragtime "jazz" seems about as relevent or appropriate as "rock & roll" -- a style influential on later musics, but hardly equivilent. Please, anon, either read up on the subject before editing or stop trolling. -- Infrogmation 15:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0859013.html YOU ARE TALKING TO JAZZ HISTORIAN and do not play with me and this article. I am sick of you reverting, jazz is earliest type of music, and stop using your unorthodox excuses, because they make no sense, the above article proves my point and there are 100's just like that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.4 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 24 November 2006)
Ok... if article is sloppy, show me, or is that your lousy defense, most of the jazz historians will agree with me that he is the founder, however, i am no longer stating that on wiki, since there are arguments, however, the link is not part of the article but it's external information, together with other information it does not destroy this page, it helps and it gives us a different angle of thought, in the link itself it says he is founder and keep in mind THIS IS NOT JUST ANY LINK, it comes from texas educational link, link is associated with colleges. So, it does not matter what you think of me as a historian or not, hopefully we can agree on something, if not, well, I know I am right. The problem with wiki is one wrong word of uncivility, even if you are right, all of a suddent you become wrong, either way go to some old jazz club and ask musicians, then I will visit there too and let's find out, according to any jazz knowledge, it was joplin (if not the founder) who made it popular and that's just as being a founder. Elvis did not invent rock n roll, there were many other black singers before him who sang it. Together with the combination of gospel, rhythm n blues, country they invented something new and had no idea how to call it. Even Hank Williams in 1947 composed move it on over, in today's terms that's rock n roll. And I suggest you stop calling me troll, that's an attack, all these replies make me think i am talking to a robot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.243 ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 25 November 2006)
- Buddy Bolden and Jelly Roll Morton made the earliest forms of jazz, not Joplin.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.30.62 ( talk • contribs) 07:16, 27 November 2006
What are you talking about, what years are those, do you have a link?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.0.78 ( talk • contribs)
- I'm talking about the true originators of jazz, Buddy was born only a decade after Joplin and Morton about 17 years, and you can check their respective wikipedia articles for a link. If that's not enough I can provide more later.
- I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble (and especially Jazz Historian over there) but Jazz is 'suprisingly' NOT the earliest form of music and in fact did not even become well known until the twenties. Jazz would not be as it is today without BLUES and RAGTIME. Blues---->Ragtime---->Jazz. Blues has been around for probably longer than we have empirical evidence to support such a date, but was becoming well known at the dawn of the twentieth century. Sorry. Also, Joplin did not create Ragtime but did, in fact, add new elements to ragtime that were not established earlier. Very much in the way we think of yes---Elvis, W.C. Handy, and Robert Johnson—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.160.230 ( talk • contribs)
I'm not the same anonymous editor that claimed that jazz is the earliest form of music. And you also forgot to include march music, minstrel show music and gospel/soul music as influences in the origins of jazz. Bottom line, jazz isn't the earliest form of music (Duh!), Joplin is neither the originator of Ragtime nor Jazz, just one of the best and most popular composers of Ragtime and influenced the development of Jazz and Joplin doesn't count as a Jazz musician nor a Jazz composer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.62.118 ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 18 December 2006
Edward A. Berlin suggests that there is evidence that Irving Berlin stole "Alexander's Ragtime Band" from Joplin. Should this be entered? Discuss.-- 75.9.32.43 08:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I've heard, "Alexander's Ragtime Band" is not actually rag, but rather a piece of music that used the word "rag" in the title to interest the buyer. It's just another "fake" rag.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.110.254 ( talk • contribs)
I have removed the accuracy tag as the issues seem to have been resolved. Capitalistroadster 06:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This list could be expanded massively by an hour or two in my vinyl collection. When The Sting , with incomplete snatches of Joplin's good stuff led to the Joplin Revival of the 70's, several good recordings were released.
One was a Biograph Release of Rolls Played on a Bechstein upright, with a committee to agree on tempos, as these tended to vary on the rolls as well as between instruments. When listening to rolls there is the barely-perceptible sound of the tempo rising as the pin rolled to the bottom. In my neighborhood pizza parlor there was a well-maintained upright player and many Joplin rolls, some recorded by Joplin himself. I found it interesting how often he played lovely "grace notes" that were NOT included in his scores, and which he often reminded artists NOT to play.
Nonesuch released two LPs of Joshua Rifkin playing the best arrow-straight, (non-stylized), recordings of Joplin's piano I ever heard. I saw Rifkin in concert in La Jolla California, and he was as good or better at interpreting Joplin live as anyone ever recorded.
The release that brought me to appreciate Joplin was Gunter Schuler, and the New England Conservatory Ragtime Ensemble recording of "The Red Back Book." These were orchestral arrangements by Joplin. KPBS in San Diego played, "Sugar Cane", and "The Easy Winners", and for the first time in my life I went directly to Tower Records and bought the LP. Schuler later released, "Palm Leaf Rag", an album of his own orchestral arrangements, (played by the NECRE), of Joplin Piano Music. User:W8IMP 0524, 05 January 2007 (UTC)
Anyone wanna tackle getting all the links cleaned up? At a glance, most of what's there fails WP:EL. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please do something about the above statement. As far as I can make out from the text (apologies if I've missed something), Joplin married twice, in which case, the statement is plainly wrong. Either way, its syntax is way out! Regards, -- Technopat 21:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
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WHAT INSTRUMENTS DID JOPLIN PLAY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.61.25 ( talk) 15:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Theres is only the Plesant Moments played by himself. The other rolls are all arranged rolls. See footnotes on de:Scott Joplin. Gerhard51 ( talk) 09:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
This statement is incorrect. Seven Connorized rolls and one Aeolian Uni-Record roll are labelled as 'Played by Scott Joplin'. The Connorized rolls have been heavily edited, including quantized (making the tempo perfect) and having embellishments added by an editor (the walking bass) but the Aeolian roll is pretty much untouched and is probably almost exactly as Joplin sat down and played it that day in 1916. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
125.236.172.96 (
talk)
12:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
By some of the massive chords and wide skips in certain piano pieces penned by Scott Joplin, I wonder if he had large hands. I have the same hunch for classical composers Robert Schumann (1810-1856), and Cesar Franck (1822-1890). Musicwriter ( talk) 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Seriously. Some articles I can understand, but what in the world makes this article such a target? Both obvious and sneaky...is it one person who keeps using multiple IPs, or is it linked from some places very well travled by vandals? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ben/Melodia, Every time I see vandalism on this page, I ask myself the same question. How could anyone get a thrill out of such silly, destructive rubbish?. I can understand, but will never condone racial slurs, but how does saying, "...he was gay and cr*pp*d on the lawn...", amuse this poor, lost soul? How would one suppose this poor person's mother would feel if she ever found out?-- W8IMP 00:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Again. I noticed a small syntax error and corrected that, but then realized the entire page had been vandalized. I'm a bit new to revisions, I hope I got it right. I think this page needs to be locked, as it appears we have ongoing attempts at pernicious vandalism. Dfrauzel 00:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Should it be mentioned that he alledgely could travel in time? Also, he was keenly interested in popular tennis. http://snltranscripts.jt.org/02/02fjoplin.phtml http://snltranscripts.jt.org/03/03ejoplin.phtml That is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThomasJCyrus ( talk • contribs) 20:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Quote from article: ... he did record seven piano rolls in 1916; "Maple Leaf Rag" (for Connorized and Aeolian companies), "Something Doing," "Magnetic Rag," "Ole Miss Rag," "Weeping Willow Rag" and "Pleasant Moments - Ragtime Waltz" (all for Connorized). These are the only records of his playing we have ...
I'm up for doing this split. Any discussion? Stepheng3 ( talk) 15:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions two marriages of Scott Joplin: one to Belle in 1900 or earlier, and one to Lottie Stokes in 1909.
So the following sentence is inexplicable:
"Their" wedding? Whose wedding is this? Freddie and Freddie's wife? Freddie and Scott Joplin's wedding? A wedding between Scott Joplin and an unnamed woman? Even assuming that Freddie Alexander is female, grammatically there is no antecedent for "their". — Lawrence King ( talk) 04:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
It is described in the text as "award-winning", but there is no reference for that either in the Joplin article, or in the Treemonisha one. Joplin certainly was award winning, even if that was posthumous, but his opera? I'll remove the phrase until we have further information.
On another note, I've realised this article lacks any analysis of the music itself. I'll take a first look at expanding that section with what sources I have. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 11:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
What happened to Belle? The article says he married her around 1900 and then it says he married Freddie Alexander in 1904. Did he divorce her? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gambit2392 ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. You can find my detailed review on the comments page. Article is B-class, but might be brought to GA with some work. If you have comments or questions, feel free to leave them here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 16:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for a picture of John Still Stark, and found it on "The State Historical Society of Missouri's" Website. It's a dot.Edu. So it should be creditable. Clicked on the "Scott Joplin Biography" link, and there it was! Not only his "Signature," but two pictures and one cartoon of him. One taken from the front cover of his sheet music “Swipesy Cake Walk,” 1900. And the other picture taken [taken from American Musician, June 17, 1907, Performing Arts Reading Room, Library of Congress].
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/joplin.shtml#marshall
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/joplinsignature.jpg
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/joplinstark.html
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/stark.jpg
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/13-LC-Joplin.jpg
So what do you guys think? I'm pretty sure it's all public domain. And we could at least use the picture of John Stark.-- Morahman7vn ( talk) 05:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
And they do have some good looking References and Resources.-- Morahman7vn ( talk) 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Some good additions to the lead, but there are some problems with certain passages - was the Pulitzer prize actually awarded for Treemonisha? this suggests its for his work as a whole. I removed the final sentence because it seemed too POV and without reference. For example, it called the revival of interest in Joplin's music "unprecendented". Really? Had interest in music revivals not happened before? It also made the faux pas of calling The Entertainer a song. Last time I checked it wasn't, unless you're refering to a different version. My computer cut off the comment in the edit summary so I couldn't finish the thought; sorry about that all. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 14:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Been making some changes to the body which I'll try to get back to in a few days. In the meantime, any suggestions, corrections, further additions, or other ideas would be helpful. Right now, a Google search for Scott Joplin gets close to a million results, with this Wiki article being #1. And with Joplin being such a vital source of our musical heritage, I think he deserves the best bio we can give him. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 02:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This section has gotten scrambled. If Freddie Alexander died in 1904, then the move in 1900 would not have been "subsequently". -- Stepheng3 ( talk) 03:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The section below was copied (not cut) from the "Music styles" section. If anyone has any suggestions for rephrasing and simplifying this paragraph, it would certainly give me great solace and felicity. My hunch is that for the average reader it's a real slow drag trying to make sense of it, and a good rewrite would give it a more euphonic sound.
Any volunteers? -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 07:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Below is a copy of the contents before and after new material was added. Any ideas on how the structure should be revised can be put in this discussion section. It's quick to move entire sections around or even divide or combine subsections, so restructure ideas can come anytime. You'll notice that my last edits were to pull out and combine the details about his family life, which were comingled with his music background and where he lived - sometimes within the same sentence. I split up a section to make it easier to see which areas need more detail (i.e. divide and conquer.) I'll try to add more details over time and any feedback or other edits and additions would be useful.
The Bach article structure is OK because there's enough detail to fill in for a time period. Joplin's would have a long way to go to match that kind of outline but with more additions it might work. BTW, I didn't think that having Bach's "Family members" section inserted between "Musical style" and "Works" was the best place for it. In any case, moving sections around is simple.
|
Outline suggestions below -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Proposed Contents
1 Early years
3 Personal life and marriages
4 Final years and early death
2 Music career
5 Legacy
6 Revival
7 Other awards and recognition
8 References
9 External links
|}
I haven't been clever enough to renumber the sections, but I think the idea is clear. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Existing questionable sections
I'd like to expand on his Treemonisha opera so am giving some advance notice and thoughts:
The main factor in my upcoming additions is that they will be mostly autobiographical in nature. I presume this is fairly unusual for operas. As I add more details and sources the question will gradually arise as to how to use or categorize the related section. Some questions might relate to whether part of the details should be cut or copied to the the Treemonisha article; others could involve treating the opera as a major section of subsection (as it is now.) But obviously a lot depends on what the text will look like when it's in, so I propose and wait-and-see attitude till I get it written. As material is added, I'll probably try experimenting with different ways of laying this out and might try some section heading changes as part of it.
The good news is that I desire to leave it up to all editors to reach consensus and decide after it's in what should be cut, changed, moved, etc. And as we all know, it's a quicker to trim branches off a tree than it is to grow one. I hope to have most of my new material added over the next 3-4 days, after which time we can all sharpen out pruning shears. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I had some more material for other sections that I thought I'd better work in first.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 05:19, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
In relation to the other sections, this one seems too heavily weighted and redundant of observations. It probably deserves more than simply saying he was a better composer of music than a pianist, but considering his claim to fame is more as a composer anyway, the minutiae makes it a barrier to get through the article, IMO. I'll try to trim it down so the essence is there and the issue stays in proportion to the rest. It's most all taken from the Berlin book anyway so there's no problem reinserting facts when needed. If anyone feels that I've trimmed out too much, feel free to put anything back. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 03:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This may explain the differences in opinion of those observing Joplin's playing in the late 1890s and in the early 1910s. In the 1976 TV series All You Need is Love, Eubie Blake recalled listening to a later Joplin performance and was shocked as he performed the "Maple Leaf Rag". [1]
While Joplin never made an audio recording, he did record seven piano rolls in 1916; "Maple Leaf Rag" (for Connorized and Aeolian companies), "Something Doing," "Magnetic Rag," "Ole Miss Rag," " Weeping Willow" and "Pleasant Moments - Ragtime Waltz" (all for Connorized). These are the only records of his playing we have, and are interesting for the embellishments added by Joplin to his Connorized performances, although studying other Connorized rolls of that era reveals they may well have been added during the production process by staff artists, rather than Joplin himself. The roll of "Pleasant Moments" was thought lost until August 2006, when a piano roll collector in New Zealand discovered a surviving copy. It has been claimed that the uneven nature of some of Joplin's piano rolls, such as one of the recordings of "Maple Leaf Rag" mentioned above, documented the extent of Joplin's physical deterioration due to syphilis. A comparison of the two "Maple Leaf Rag" player-piano rolls made by Joplin in 1916, one in April the other in June, has been described as "... shocking. The second version is disorganized and completely distressing to hear." [2]: xxxix While the irregularities may also be due to the primitive technology used to record the rolls, rolls recorded by other artists for the same company around the same time are noticeably smoother.
Although I'll be adding more details, I notice when scanning all the sections that the Revival section looks gigantic in comparison. My impression is that it looks at least three times the size it needs to be to keep it practical and the article sections balanced. Reading the material is very complex with all the dates, places, and names, and without any section breaks for organization. On the other hand, a section on Revival should be compact enough not to require sections, hence the size issue. In the alternative, we could have another article on just the revival of ragtime generally, and leave enough here for Joplin's basics and a see more link. Just my opinion.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 06:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing the revival section, with new subheads, I think there is still too much here. Since facts have no doubt been added piecemeal over a long time, I don't think I'll mess with it. What I did was copy the section here and struck out text that I feel can be cut (except any needed cites). I think the revival section could be nicely summarized in 2 or 3 paragraphs. I would keep out any trivia and minute details since this section, coming after the main article and legacy, should be easier to read and understand. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 20:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Revival
After his death in 1917, Joplin's music and ragtime in general waned in popularity as new forms of musical styles, such as jazz and novelty piano, emerged. Even so, Jazz bands and recording artists such as Tommy Dorsey in 1936, Jelly Roll Morton in 1939 and J. Russell Robinson in 1947 released recordings of Joplin ragtime compositions ragtime on 78 RPM records.
Between 1902 and 1961 more recordings of the Maple Leaf Rag were released by more artists than for any other Joplin rag. [3]
- 1960s
In the 1960s, a small-scale reawakening of interest in classic ragtime was underway among some American music scholars.
In 1961, composer and performer Trebor Tichenor began publishing The Ragtime Review and hosting ragtime performances aboard a St. Louis riverboat named Goldenrod. In New York City, William "Bill" Bolcom learned of the existence of the opera Treemonisha in 1966 and began to search for it, finding that Rudi Blesh had published it a few years prior. Bolcom arranged with Thomas J. "T.J." Anderson for a full orchestration of the work and, in the meantime, began playing and composing rags, sending sheet music back and forth with his friends William "Bill" Albright and Peter Winkler, a mathematician and fan of ragtime. Blesh's friend Max Morath introduced them to the breadth of Joplin's rags. In 1968, Bolcom and Albright interested Joshua Rifkin, a young musicologist, in the body of Joplin's work. Together, they hosted an occasional ragtime-and-early-jazz evening on WBAI radio. [4]: 179–182
- Joshua Rifkin
In November 1970, Rifkin released a recording called Scott Joplin Piano Rags [5] on the classical label Nonesuch. It sold 100,000 copies in its first year and eventually became Nonesuch's first million-selling record. [6] Record stores found themselves for the first time putting ragtime in the classical music section.
The album was nominated in 1971 for two Grammy Award categories: Best Album Notes and Best Instrumental Soloist Performance (without orchestra). Rifkin was also under consideration for a third Grammy for a recording not related to Joplin, but at the ceremony on March 14, 1972, Rifkin did not win in any category. [7]
- New York publishing
In January 1971, Harold C. Schonberg, music critic at the New York Times, having just heard the Rifkin album, wrote a featured Sunday edition article entitled "Scholars, Get Busy on Scott Joplin!" [8] Schonberg's call to action has been described as the catalyst for classical music scholars, the sort of people Joplin had battled all his life, to conclude that Joplin was a genius. [4]: 184 Vera Brodsky Lawrence of the New York Public Library published a two-volume set of Joplin works in June 1971, entitled The Collected Works of Scott Joplin, stimulating a wider interest in the performance of Joplin's music.
- Treemonisha productions
On October 22, 1971 excerpts from Treemonisha were presented in concert form at Lincoln Center
with musical performances by Bolcom, Rifkin and Mary Lou Williams supporting a group of singers. [9] Finally, on January 28, 1972, T.J. Anderson's orchestration of Treemonisha was staged for two consecutive nights, sponsored by the Afro-American Music Workshop of Morehouse College in Atlanta, with singers accompanied by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra [10] under the direction of Robert Shaw, and choreography by Katherine Dunham. Schonberg remarked in February 1972 that the "Scott Joplin Renaissance" was in full swing and still growing. [11]
Gunther Schuller
Gunther Schuller, a french horn player and music professor, formed the New England Ragtime Ensemble in 1972 from students at the New England Conservatory. He had received mimeographed copies of individual instrumental parts of the Red Back Book from Vera Lawrence, and was introducing Joplin tunes into the middle of otherwise 'classical' concerts of American turn-of-the-century music. Angel Records approached him with a record deal and, in 1973, produced a recording called Joplin: The Red Back Book.
- The Sting
After Marvin Hamlisch produced the soundtrack for The Sting in 1973, won an Oscar for his adaptation of Joplin's music, [12], and got his adaptation of The Entertainer on the Billboard Hot 100 music chart in 1974, "the whole nation has begun to take notice...", wrote the New York Times. [13]
New York Magazine, in 1979, wrote that Nonesuch Records, by giving artists like Rifkin their "first hearing" by recording Joplin's music, "created, almost alone, the Scott Joplin revival." [14] In his interview with the Times, Rifkin stated, "Let's face it - the big factor here is the score for The Sting."
However, Rifkin pointed out that the movie's score was a "direct stylistic lift from two sources. ...What you get in the movie is piano solos played exactly like mine and the orchestral arrangements done exactly like his [Schuller]." [13] The Grammy-nominated recordings remained at the top of Billboard's classical charts for some time. [15]Edward Berlin tends to agree
that the movie was an important factor in the revival: "Led by The Entertainer, one of the most popular pieces of the mid-1970s,a revival of his music resulted in events unprecedented in American musical history." He further added, "never before had any composer's music been so acclaimed by both the popular and classical music worlds." [16] The New York Times described some of the revival's effects on the public:
- "Joplin's music, happily, is just about omnipresent these days. His The Entertainer ... reverberates from every jukebox and car radio; companies like Kodak and Ford are using rags ... as background music for television commercials; ragtime renditions by everybody from Percy Faith to E. Power Biggs ... crowd together on record store shelves." [13]
Rifkin had also been affected by the revival: In 1974 he said, "I did a tour this fall and various other concerts since then, including two in London - there's a craze in England as well - and made something like ten appearances on BBC television this spring ... This past May I gave a concert in London's Royal Festival Hall, which seats about 3,200 people, and it was sold out within four days..." [13]
;Ballet Also that year the Royal Ballet, under Kenneth MacMillan created Elite Syncopations, a ballet based on tunes by Joplin, Max Morath and others. In addition, 1974 also saw the premiere by the Los Angeles Ballet of Red Back Book, choreographed by John Clifford to Joplin rags from the collection of the same name, including both solo piano performances and arrangements for full orchestra.
- Treemonisha on Broadway
In May 1975, Treemonisha was staged in a full opera production by the Houston Grand Opera.
The company toured briefly, then settled into an eight-week run in New York on Broadway at the Palace Theater in October and November. This appearance was directed by Gunther Schuller, and soprano Carmen Balthrop alternated with Kathleen Battle as the title character. [10] An "original Broadway cast" recording was produced. Because of the lack of national exposure given to the brief Morehouse College staging of the opera in 1972, many Joplin scholars wrote that the Houston Grand Opera's 1975 show was the first full production. [9]
- After his death in 1917, Joplin's music and ragtime in general waned in popularity as new forms of musical styles, such as jazz and novelty piano, emerged. Even so, Jazz bands and recording artists such as Tommy Dorsey in 1936, Jelly Roll Morton in 1939 and J. Russell Robinson in 1947 released recordings of Joplin ragtime compositions ragtime on 78 RPM records.
Between 1902 and 1961 more recordings of the Maple Leaf Rag were released by more artists than for any other Joplin rag.[17]
- New York Magazine in 1979, credited Nonesuch Records with creating the ragtime revival with the release of records like Rifkins' [18] , although Rifkin himself credited The Sting. < The Grammy-nominated recordings went to the top of Billboard's classical charts in 1971. [19]
- The New York Times described some of the revival's effects on the public:
- "Joplin's music, happily, is just about omnipresent these days. His The Entertainer ... reverberates from every jukebox and car radio; companies like Kodak and Ford are using rags ... as background music for television commercials; ragtime renditions by everybody from Percy Faith to E. Power Biggs ... crowd together on record store shelves." [13]
I've found a midi file of the Piano Roll recording of the Maple Leaf, as recorded by Joplin in 1916, which I think would be very suitable for inclusion in the "Performer" section as it would help to illustrate the deterioration of Joplin's piano-playing.
The file can be found here. The owner of the site is a Wikipedia user ( User:PlayerRoll), so I left a note on his talk page asking if he could upload the midi (which he says is free to download). No response since November 08 so I will Be Bold. Given that the original recording is now 93 years old, it will be in the Public Domain (see also here).
There is an issue with the scanning in process done by User:PlayerRoll because it may conceivably be seen as a derivative work, however, no copyright notice exists on his site, or within the file as far as I can see. However, in the absence of clear evidence either way, I'd be cautious about this. There is a guideline here, which suggests usinig on 1 minute of the track in the event that the audio is copyrighted. I have re-recorded the midi file as an ogg-vorbis audio file, and I'll upload 1 minute of that (the Trio as played in this recording is very untidy). Few! Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
In an effort to keep the topics and sections in balance, I question whether a section of "performance skills" belongs. Note that there is little in the article about his performances besides what he did in small clubs (i.e. Maple Leaf), so the next question might be whether he "performed" or "played." Even the Irving Berlin article skipped over his "performances" and focused on his key profession - composer, as he was not noted for being a "pianist." After all, we're not discussing people noted for their "performances" as if they played Carnegie Hall, or even a playhouse. Same goes for someone like Al Jolson, who also played piano, but is never discussed as either "playing" or "performing" piano music, but simply singing.
Personally, I always assume that any piano music composer knows how to play the piano, so going into detail on their changing skill level, at least beyond mention, seems distracting and might even diminish the attention to his composition skills for the average visitor to the article. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 23:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, modern research by ragtime history Edward A. Berlin has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate - the most likely approximate date being the first half of 1867.
Yet the lede says "June 1867 - January 1868". That's the latter half of 1867. I have no idea which is correct, but these two statements are inconsistent. -- JackofOz ( talk) 00:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the stamp image File:Scott Joplin stamp 1983.jpg for a second time because the recent re-licence of the image is incorrect. This stamp image is not a public domain image. All US stamps issued after 1978 are copyright which is why it must be removed and deleted. If you doubt what I say please read the {{ Non-free USGov-USPS stamp}} template carefully. It is quite clear. Because this is a non-free image of a stamp it fails WP:NFC#Images which clearly states: Stamps and currency: For identification of the stamp or currency, not its subject, which was the use here, so it may not be used in this article. Sorry. ww2censor ( talk) 01:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
This seemed the best place to put this. Most, if not all, of the pages on Joplin's works make reference to the date it was "copyrighted", which seems very odd. Why not just say published like normal? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ ( talk) 14:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It's been almost a year since the last assessment on this page, and there have been substantial improvements since then thanks to the work by Wikiwatcher and others. While there are a few minor things I'd like to change / improve (and a citation to support joplin's "amazing" improvisational ability in the lead, to name but one) none of these look impossible to achieve. What does everyone think? Shall we put it up for Good Article nomination? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 18:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
(UTC)
Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
A suggested ammendment to this section:
What do you think? I'd still want to use the Joplin Maple leaf recording in this section, to let the reader make up their own mind. The Pleasant Moments recording serves as a useful comparison. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
How's this? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 16:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I've trimmed the paragraph below as it pertains to a single event, described in minute detail, which seems to add little to the bio. While it would work in a large book, like Berlin's, in this article it seems off topic and irrelevant to anything else, and IMO at least, distracts from the flow of the overall biography. I've tried to summarize the story but couldn't even do that without it seeming out of context. I'm placing it here for others to offer thoughts if this kind of anecdote fits anywhere. BTW, "truth" alone is not a suitable reason to add the story.
In 1896, Joplin was performing in the region around Waco, Texas, when William Crush, a manager with the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railway, staged a publicity stunt ramming two locomotives, pulling heavily laden trains, head-on into each other at full speed in front of over 40 thousand spectators, killing three of them when the boilers exploded and hurtled debris into the crowd. Joplin commemorated the event with "The Great Crush Collision March" (which he dedicated to the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railway). The sheet music was published in Temple, Texas, by John R. Fuller in 1896. [36]
-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
As suggested above, including:
I'm currently in the middle of smoothing out the page references; making them standardised, adding all books referenced into the bibliography with isbn numbers & google books pages where possible, and linking the references to them.
In addition, I'm unhappy with the amount of quotations used on the page - they can be powerful, but have been overused. To quote WP:Quotations:
Third, while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Wikipedia. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short. Long quotations not only add to the length of many articles that are already too long, but they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information.
— WP:QUOTE
The article has improved immensely since Wikiwatcher1 went through the available sources. I think now is the time to streamline the text; quotations are apt if they highlight POV for example, but are generally unnecessary where there is little or no controversy over the events.
An example. I changed this:
After moving to Texarkana a few years after Scott was born, Jiles began working as a common laborer for the railroad. Florence did laundry and cleaning for additional income. Berlin writes that they "were a musical family and provided their son a rudimentary musical education." At the age of seven, for instance, Scott was allowed to play piano in both a neighbor's house and at the home of an attorney while his mother worked at housecleaning
into this:
After moving to Texarkana a few years after Scott was born, Jiles began working as a common laborer for the railroad. Florence did laundry and cleaning for additional income. Joplin was given a rudimentary musical education by his musical family; at the age of seven Scott was allowed to play piano in both a neighbor's house and at the home of an attorney while his mother worked
Others may disagree, but I think the current version of the above is tidier and flows better. The direct mention of Berlin is not needed since he is named in the citation. I think it's important that we go through the text further to remove other instances of the same, plus block quotes where they are not needed. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Just watched a music documentary called, "All You Need Is Love: Disc 2," (5 in full set) that had close to an hour of outstanding old ragtime footage and detailed interviews with Rudi Blesh and Eubie Blake. Eubie described watching him play after the symptoms took hold. It's available on Netflix. Apparently it's from a British TV documentary from 1977, but I don't think it was ever shown in the U.S. It was recently put on DVD and the quality is excellent. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 02:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Some of the rephrasing would be clearer, I think, if put in a chonological order, and with some more intro. details about Weiss. As it reads now, Weiss is introduced in the paragraph without any description of who he was or why he is even mentioned - hence his connection to Joplin seems a bit abstract. It also discussed his receiving money "years later" but is followed by what he actually did to cause that, instead of the reverse order. I would try to rephrase a bit to fill in those missing areas. Otherwise, the rephrasing and shortening the material is pretty good. Since this is such a critical phase in his development, however, I wouldn't condense it too much since any details about his childhood helps readers get to know his personality and better understand his youthful world. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 20:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
In addition to the above, there seem to areas in the text which need further explanation because I don't think the current text is as clear as it could be. I'll add it to our list of things to improve:
In the article of Michael Jackson, he is described as "American" and not "African American."
The article should be modeled after the MJ article, with the primary mention as "American" and following elsewhere that he is African-American.
Here is what I've done: He is described as "American" in the first sentence, and then "African-American" in the biographical section of the main article, moved along with the post-slavery generation tidbit.
Scott Joplin and MJ should be described fairly and equally. Facial ( talk) 20:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
From all the sources that I have read, Joplin only composed one opera: "Treemonisha". Did he really compose two operas as this article states? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.195.61 ( talk) 19:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I changed mentions of "Scott" in the first paragraph after the lede to "Joplin" to keep it consistent with the rest of the article. Stepheng3 ( talk) has requested that I revert the change - not that I wish to go against the opinions of editors who watch this page but I think that keeping a consistency throughout benefits the article and what existed before did jar. I can see merit in having "Scott" in the paragraph mentioning the parents and the rest of the Joplin family, but I thought it would be obvious who we were talking about given the context. I am more than willing to change back should others disagree with me on this. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
A suggested improvement to the Lead:
What does the community think? I didn't think the Lead as it stands fully discusses the biographical element, and in some places (like the mentioning of his improvisational ability) is not supported by all the sources. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
He was "blessed with an amazing ability to improvise at the piano," writes opera historian Elise Kirk, and was able to enlarge his talent "with the music he heard around him," which was rich with the sounds of gospel hymns and spirituals, dance music, plantation songs, syncopated rhythms, blues, and choruses.<ref name=Kirk/>{{rp|190}} After he studied music with several local teachers, his talent was noticed by a[[Germans|German]] [[immigrant]] music teacher, Julius Weiss, who chose to give the 11-year-old boy lessons free of charge. Joplin was taught music theory, keyboard technique, and an appreciation of various European music styles, such as folk and opera. As an adult, Joplin also studied at the [[George R. Smith College]], a [[historically black college]] (HBCU), in [[Sedalia, Missouri]]. "He composed music unlike any ever before written," according to Joplin biographer Edward Berlin.<ref>Jefferson, Margo. ''The New York Times'', July 20, 1994.[http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/20/books/books-of-the-times-setting-the-rhythm-for-a-new-era.html "Books of the Times; Setting the Rhythm for a New Era."] Retrieved on November 8, 2009.</ref> Eventually, "the piano-playing public clamored for his music; newspapers and magazines proclaimed his genius; musicians examined his scores with open admiration."<ref name=Berlin/>{{rp|3}} Ragtime historian Susan Curtis noted that "when Joplin syncopated his way into the hearts of millions of Americans at the turn of the century, he helped revolutionize American music and culture."<ref name=operaam>{{cite web|url=http://web.archive.org/web/20050218222938/http://www.operaam.org/encore/tree.htm|title=Opera America|accessdate=2009-03-14}}</ref>
Added to do list for discussion and aid while editing. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 20:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
There appears to be disagreement over the mechanics of how Joplin was playing the piano while his mother was working. Does anyone have access to the source? What does it say with regards to this? Unless it is in the source, it is speculation and shouldn't be in here! I'll try and check the sources I have. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 06:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I found it hard to follow who was who in his childhood because it would have sentences talking about Scott's family members and then the next sentence would start with the name "Joplin" only. I'm unsure whether this is referring to the family member that was just spoken of (which, grammatically, it is) or if it is referring to Scott Joplin himself. A first name would help here. 205.208.213.99 ( talk)
It seems important to include any uncommon racial aspects to his bio. Joplin himself, born right after the Civil War ended, felt the black-white dimension was important enough to write his final and most important opera, Treemonisha, with that as a basis:
For the same reason, the fact that he was taught music when a child by a white person, with the added dimension of religious differences, and was taught for free, adds relevant depth to his childhood, and as his biographers pointed out, may have influenced his writings. Maybe this kind of relationship is less significant in 2010, but it clearly was back then. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Any of the trimming I have done hasn't omitted anything currently in the article; I have folded some quotations into the text, removed some where the point made was not helpful to the sense of the text, and improved some where I felt the sense of the original had been lost. I don't think we have addressed racial issues in Joplin's life very much at all, and I think you are right Wikiwatcher1 to point it out. I haven't read Albrecht, and a Google Book search did not allow me to see the article (there is a $90 subscription to the web-site of the College Music Symposium which I didn't feel willing to put out for), and Berlin doesn't mention Weiss' religion. I think there are various things which we should consider when moving forward:
I would favour removing the reference to Weiss' religion. I think we should add another item to our "to do" list; explore Joplin's impact and significance as a composer who happened to be African-American. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:20, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Album names are italicized, but simple song titles are put in quotes, not italicized, per MOS:MUSIC. For instance, "Maple Leaf Rag" was one of the songs on Rifkin's Scott Joplin Piano Rags album. Binksternet ( talk) 22:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
In response to the Major's last question, in 2009 I stumbled upon Irving Berlin's article (another ragtime composer, by coincidence,) and felt it needed some improvement. So that article is a pretty good example of what I would do here if we had the sources. But I don't believe we do. I was able to add about 25 new cites, mostly books, to the Irving Berlin article, but there are only a few about Joplin - so were' quickly limited.
What I do think Berlin and Joplin have in common, it would appear, is the importance of including any details - even some minutia - about their early years before and immediately after they took up writing music - the formative years. I've heard that 75% of the average person's personality is settled by the time they're 5 years old. For both Joplin and Berlin, they clearly had their minds set to be music writers in their teens. That's why I feel expanding that period, especially with 2nd. hand quotes, would help a lot. We even had some 1st hand quotes from Joplin's wife, I believe, but they were trimmed. I would add them back in context. It helps make him a real person.
The piano roll topic strikes me as tangential because it is used merely to support another somewhat tangential topic: his playing skills. But like Berlin, he was not primarily noted as a recording artist, and for Berlin, therefore, I only briefly mentioned his customized piano and the fact that he used mostly the black keys. For the piano roll material on Joplin, it seems a bit distracting as it changes the focus onto minute details about the evidence that implies Joplin's piano skills, good or bad. But again, I don't think many readers would even think about Joplin as a piano player over being a composer, so I'd condense it and keep the focus on Joplin.
I would probably do the same with the "Revival" section, and for the same reasons: let's write about Joplin the person; his life, family, friends, environment, associates, etc. There was, before some trimming, more details about the conflicts that Joplin's love of music had on both his early and later life. Edward Berlin surmises that it may have caused the breakup of his parents, remember. His mother, with little income as a housecleaner, bought him a piano. More details like those for his formative period I feel will help the article greatly. Most of the rephrasing you've done has been a valuable improvement and you've cleaned up a lot of disorganized material. Nice work! -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 23:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I'll flag this up here for anyone who watches this page; I've had a quick look through the article as it stands and I think it is in pretty good shape overall. The "to-do" list is still valid I think, but I would like to put this article up for GA nomination; at the very least it would be very useful to get an outsider's opinion on it. Any thoughts? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I saw a picture of Scottie J's grave and it said his birthday was November 24th 1868. COULD SOMEONE PLEASE ADD THIS IN????? Thanks, Cthornton799 ( talk) 16:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
OpenTTD offers two sets of "base music", and one of them is "Scott Joplin's Anthology". It is unknown to me, wheither the use of those MIDIs there is legal or not - OpenTTD itself is of questionable legality. Yura87 ( talk) 22:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
The peer review highlighted a couple of things, much of which I have fixed or tried to fix. The reviewer thought that the page could get through GAN, and I do agree with them. I think the New York section which is the part that is most obviously lacking in detail and needs expanding. I would like to take some of the cite news templates we have in the bulk of the text and put them into the bibliography section just to be tidy, but that's not a GA-critical thing. As per an earlier discussion I think it would be useful to see whether there is an assessment of Joplin's roll in the African-American community, specifically whether his experience was typical of the era (I don't think it was, but we need sources to say that), and whether he has been seen as a pioneer. Again, I don't think this is a GA-critical issue, but it's one we should address if / when we go for FA-status. I've put other things which were mentioned on to the "to do" list and I'll add this race one too.
I'll put this in for GAN once the New York section has been fleshed out. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 07:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The article seems to continually attract vandals. Maybe 99% of the time they're IPs, so page protection should help. I have a feeling that this article will need continual protection based on the number of different IPs and types of edits, mostly rude kids. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 08:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
One of his songs "solace" is used in the video game the Ship. It is mostly used in the main menu theme. I can tell because of the main piano piece. You can recognize that anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.216.249.141 ( talk) 01:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk · contribs) 22:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: none found.
Linkrot: two found and fixed. [5]
I aim to post a substantive review within 48 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 23:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Rereading the article after a long pause, I tend to understand some of the issues listed. Unfortunately, calling sentences "clumsy" doesn't explain problems with precision. But IMO I think some serious pruning would help. However, pruning facts is tricky since they were added by someone who felt they improved the article, and becomes a subjective edit.
My guess is that about 15 - 20% of the article can be pruned and consolidated. I see a lot of complex sentences, many relying on semicolons to expand details. More than a few have unnecessary minutia, trivia, or irrelevant details, and trimming them might help unify and simplify the readability. Taking a few sentences from the 1st paragraph of the 1st section gives an example:
Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, research has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate – the most likely approximate date being the second half of 1867.[3] In addition to Scott, other children of Giles and Florence were Monroe, Robert, Rose, William, and Johnny.
The 1st sentence can be simplified, and the 2nd one doesn't need the name of his siblings, IMO. I don't mind helping a bit, and would have no problem with anyone undoing anything. Joplin is an icon of American music history and deserves a GA designation if possible. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 22:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Scott Joplin, the second of six[1] children, was born in eastern Texas, outside of Texarkana,[2] to Giles Joplin and Florence Givins. His birth, like many others, represented the first post-slavery generation of African-Americans. Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, research has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate – the most likely approximate date being the second half of 1867.[3] In addition to Scott, other children of Giles and Florence were Monroe, Robert, Rose, William, and Johnny.[4] His father was an ex-slave from North Carolina and his mother was a freeborn African American woman from Kentucky.[5]
Scott Joplin, the second of six children, was born in eastern Texas, outside of Texakarna at some point in the second half of 1867, and not as previously believed November 24th 1868[3]. His father Giles Joplin was an ex-slave from North Caroline and his mother, Florence Givins, was a freeborn African-American from Kentucky.
I've replaced the musical artist infobox with the Classical composer infobox. There is much discussion Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes here and elsewhere in the projects' pages. It seems sensible to replace the infobox with a shorter one as much of the information in the previous infobox is available in the lead or is subject to qualification - having it in the infobox is misleading. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 15:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The stated purpose of the removal of the longer infobox style for musical composers is as follows:
1. They often give trivia undue emphasis and prominence at the head of the article 2. They tend to become redundant (by duplicating the lead) 3. They can, conversely, become over-complex and thus vague, confused, or misleading, often compounding errors found elsewhere in the article, e.g. by confusing style and genre, setting forth haphazard lists of individual works, or highlighting the subject's trivial secondary or non-musical occupations.
However, none of these are the case in the "Scott Joplin" article: several of the instruments played by the composer are never mentioned elsewhere in the article, none of the occupations listed are non-musical or biographically trivial, and the historical era -- 1895-1917 -- is much more accurate and precise than simply "20th century". This infobox does not duplicate the lead; rather, it summarizes it in less than 50 words, vs. 500 words. In addition, there is no argument to be made concerning music genre vs. style, as the Wikipedia articles of Ragtime and march define both as "genres". Please discuss. 99.232.8.194 ( talk) 03:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Scott Joplin | |
---|---|
![]() Scott Joplin in June 1903. This picture also appears on the cover of The Cascades from 1904.
[38] | |
Background information | |
Birth name | Scott Joplin |
Born | c. late 1867 or early 1868 Northeast Texas |
Origin | Texarkana, Texas |
Died | April 1, 1917 (aged 49) New York City, New York |
Genres | Ragtime, march, waltz |
Instrument(s) | Piano, |
Years active | 1895–1917 |
We could of course decide to do without one; I'm not sure one way or the other. Classical composers Bach, Beethoven and Mozart don't have an infobox, while modern composers John Barry (composer), David Arnold, and Hans Zimmer do. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 19:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Would it make sense to have a list of significant recordings of Joplin's music? we have mentioned a number of them in his article, but i think a list would be nice.(mercurywoodrose) 75.61.130.86 ( talk) 06:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
The argument that Joplin should be referred to as an American pianist and not an African-American pianist, because African-American "is not a nationality", is redundant: please see the pages Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Booker T. Washington, Harriet Tubman, etc. Additionally, quite apart from the fact that Joplin lived in a society that was totally segregated by race, and would never have been seen as indistinctly "American", his own ethnic identity is a constantly recurring theme in his publications, with numerous references to "negro music", "genuine negro ragtime", and to audiences as "colored folks", "dark-town", "darkies", and so on, and is therefore very significant to the composer's biography and body of work. Joplin emphasizes the ethnic identity associated with ragtime, and was set to prove that black music was not necessarily trashy or "crude", as was the popular opinion of the time.
Please discuss here before editing the article. Brownsc ( talk) 04:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The guidelines are simple:
I am not wading into this because of the stated arguments. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 15:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Although I agree it is correct to explain that his race was important, the Lead now has two references to "African-American" - for the sake of style I think there should only be one. In addition (and this is something I think needs putting in the lead and in the article itself) there should be an explanation of the importance of his race to his music as has been discussed. Otherwise the reference to "African-American" might not be fully understood in context. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 07:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The article underwent a major revision during March, 2009. Therefore many of the comments made below are no longer relevant.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 05:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This is an assessment of article
Scott Joplin by a member of the
Composers project, according to its
assessment criteria. This review was done by
Magicpiano.
If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.
Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.
Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
This is a nice article about one of my favorite composers. From a content perspective it seems reasonably complete, although there are some odd personal bio defects (what happened to the first two wives? I've seen the talk page -- get it in the article). Its structural issues (as well as the bio quirks) would probably be raised in a GA review: it needs more citations, the lead needs expansion, and the legacy section especially needs prose work.
Article is B-class; if it actually passes a GA review, it might be considered A-class. Magic ♪piano 16:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Berlin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Based on the liner notes of the '70s Houston Opera Company production of the revised "Treemonisha", the opera was in fact never staged in Joplin's lifetime. The closest he came was a brief run-through at a Harlem theatre which was more of a rehearsal than a performance, and was by all accounts a disaster. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.107.50.100 ( talk • contribs) 17:23, January 4, 2006 (UTC)
I am spending way too much here... I did come across a link, it says he was born January 1867, what we have to find out exact monthm i do not expect exact date... if there is somebody who lives in the area where joplin was born, go, check historical records, it would be good to know the month, if he was 50, that would be nice, symbolic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.220.171 ( talk • contribs) 23 November 2006
Just a quick note: some one should corect the mistake which is udner the picture of this guy: Born June 1859 - January 1868
As you can see, there is 1859... Well, now, it is not, according to the article. Cheers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuxan ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 26 December 2006
I attempted to add Scott Joplin, Complete Piano Rags, by David A. Jasen, ISBN 0-486-25807-6, but was unable to do so. I did include it in the Sheet Music section User:W8IMP 0517, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The year of Joplin's birth keeps being changed back and forth. People changing or wishing to change it, please site sources for this info, thanks. -- Infrogmation 06:33, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think it's fair to say that the Scott Joplin International Ragtime Foundation probably has the date of his birth closest. He is, after all, their namesake. Check out http://www.scottjoplin.org/biography.htm. Should the birthdate possilibities listed be changed to between June 1867 and mid-January 1868?
It seems to me that this article might be better served by being broken into subtopics--unfortunately, no time to do it tonight... -- Dvyost 01:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This page seems to me to be an unlikely target for vandalism, yet it gets far, far more than its fair share. Odd. Ben-w 07:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Much of Joplin's music, when you really analyze it appears to be more in the vain of folk-inspired Romantic music or simply late 19th-century Romantic composition, rather than ragtime. I think characterizing Joplin as solely a composer of ragtime is insulting to the man and his legacy--its very clear that Joplin always strove to be viewed and accepted as something greater than just a mere composer of toe-thumping bar tunes, but American society at the time simply couldn't accept an educated African American man anything other than that...just look at Treemonisha--it's certainly more musically and stylistically diverse and in a lot of ways fantastically better than what Gershwin was writing a bit later in the 20th century and Gershiwn is always talked about as having written the first true American opera. I think in some instances aspects of Treemonisha, for example the ballet the "Frolic of the Bears," compare more favorably to other nationalistic/folk-inspired Romantic music of the late 19th and early 20th century (i.e. Grieg's Peer Gynt incidental music) than ragtime. Another of his most complex and arguably best compositions, "Bethena", which is a concert waltz, is by any standard extremely impressive and comapres favorably to some of the great Chopin waltzes. Unfortunately, people being unable to accept Joplin as anything other than a Ragtime composer generally barbarously mis-orchestrate Bethena into some sort of ragtime jig, which is rather sad.
At any rate, I just think something is lacking in this article when there really is no mention of how diverse his compositions actually were, and the fact that his composition bears many of the hallmarks of the best of European and American romantic music being written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, rather than just simply ordinary ragtime. - 68.79.195.19 20:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there should be some kind of recognition of the extent Joplin was able to create works (such as "Bethena" or "Magnetic Rag") which were very much greater than mere Ragtime. Not being a musicologist I don't have the expertise to go into the technical detail, however. Should this be within the "Legacy" section perhaps if it were demonstrable, and not just POV? Major Bloodnok 23:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
On reflection, I think that there should be a section such as "musical development", detailing Joplin's, erm, development as a composer. I'll see what I can come up with when I have the chance. Also, it would follow that his compositions should be listed by year composed and /or thematically rather than alphabetically. Perhaps this should be on a different page as with other classical composers? Major Bloodnok 11:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Amended the "works" section to list works by publication date, in line with other composers. Major Bloodnok 12:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
An anon on rotating ip#s keeps putting in that Joplin was "the founder of ragtime". Once they sited [1]. As Joplin was not the first to create works in ragtime, nor made any such claim to have founded or invented the form, this is inaccurate and inappropriate, even if some poorly written tourist site has such a claim. -- Infrogmation 22:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the place of birth has been changed. Is there any proof of this? Where is the source of the information? Available information seems to indicate that there is no definitive proof either way. Also, as Infrogmation shows, it is simply wrong to say that Joplin was the founder of Ragtime. Major Bloodnok 00:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If you recall alan freen, he gave name to rock n roll, black american artists called it by different names and it was not white music, but combination... ok... now... I agree with you guys, it's possible he was not THE FOUNDER BUT HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN FOUNDING this kind of music, the birth... www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Joplin-S.html hard to say, but current version (i corrected town) sounds much better, keep in mind, these things get lost over time you know, that's all. That's normal, sad but true. There are some sources which claim he was born january 1857, go figure. Anyways, hopefully current should be ok. But yea, ragtime belongs to him. Remember, during his time, it was called something else, there was ragtime, but it was not definitive.-Nov 20
[2] gives his birthplace as "probably at Caves Springs, near Linden, Texas"; [3] says "the place of his birth in east Texas is a matter of some debate." I have changed the article accordingly unless new definitive evidence has put an end to the debate. -- Infrogmation 14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
well, provide some evidence already, otherwise this is vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.0.3 ( talk) 21-Nov-2006 13:%3
I suggest you stop playing around with this article and STOP REMOVING relevant articles, because I will not allow that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 ( talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:13 I would like to know... POSSIBLY born near Linder, WHAT IS THAT, IS THAT MATERIAL FOR ENCYCLOPEDIA? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 ( talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:19
Ok, I put the link there, which should STAY, ok... now, what are you asking me, most of the people will agree he was born in Linden, so no use to put probably. I am a ragtime musician as well.
I have been the second one to remove anon's description of Joplin's music as "jazz". Calling Joplin's ragtime "jazz" seems about as relevent or appropriate as "rock & roll" -- a style influential on later musics, but hardly equivilent. Please, anon, either read up on the subject before editing or stop trolling. -- Infrogmation 15:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0859013.html YOU ARE TALKING TO JAZZ HISTORIAN and do not play with me and this article. I am sick of you reverting, jazz is earliest type of music, and stop using your unorthodox excuses, because they make no sense, the above article proves my point and there are 100's just like that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.4 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 24 November 2006)
Ok... if article is sloppy, show me, or is that your lousy defense, most of the jazz historians will agree with me that he is the founder, however, i am no longer stating that on wiki, since there are arguments, however, the link is not part of the article but it's external information, together with other information it does not destroy this page, it helps and it gives us a different angle of thought, in the link itself it says he is founder and keep in mind THIS IS NOT JUST ANY LINK, it comes from texas educational link, link is associated with colleges. So, it does not matter what you think of me as a historian or not, hopefully we can agree on something, if not, well, I know I am right. The problem with wiki is one wrong word of uncivility, even if you are right, all of a suddent you become wrong, either way go to some old jazz club and ask musicians, then I will visit there too and let's find out, according to any jazz knowledge, it was joplin (if not the founder) who made it popular and that's just as being a founder. Elvis did not invent rock n roll, there were many other black singers before him who sang it. Together with the combination of gospel, rhythm n blues, country they invented something new and had no idea how to call it. Even Hank Williams in 1947 composed move it on over, in today's terms that's rock n roll. And I suggest you stop calling me troll, that's an attack, all these replies make me think i am talking to a robot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.243 ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 25 November 2006)
- Buddy Bolden and Jelly Roll Morton made the earliest forms of jazz, not Joplin.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.30.62 ( talk • contribs) 07:16, 27 November 2006
What are you talking about, what years are those, do you have a link?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.0.78 ( talk • contribs)
- I'm talking about the true originators of jazz, Buddy was born only a decade after Joplin and Morton about 17 years, and you can check their respective wikipedia articles for a link. If that's not enough I can provide more later.
- I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble (and especially Jazz Historian over there) but Jazz is 'suprisingly' NOT the earliest form of music and in fact did not even become well known until the twenties. Jazz would not be as it is today without BLUES and RAGTIME. Blues---->Ragtime---->Jazz. Blues has been around for probably longer than we have empirical evidence to support such a date, but was becoming well known at the dawn of the twentieth century. Sorry. Also, Joplin did not create Ragtime but did, in fact, add new elements to ragtime that were not established earlier. Very much in the way we think of yes---Elvis, W.C. Handy, and Robert Johnson—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.160.230 ( talk • contribs)
I'm not the same anonymous editor that claimed that jazz is the earliest form of music. And you also forgot to include march music, minstrel show music and gospel/soul music as influences in the origins of jazz. Bottom line, jazz isn't the earliest form of music (Duh!), Joplin is neither the originator of Ragtime nor Jazz, just one of the best and most popular composers of Ragtime and influenced the development of Jazz and Joplin doesn't count as a Jazz musician nor a Jazz composer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.62.118 ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 18 December 2006
Edward A. Berlin suggests that there is evidence that Irving Berlin stole "Alexander's Ragtime Band" from Joplin. Should this be entered? Discuss.-- 75.9.32.43 08:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I've heard, "Alexander's Ragtime Band" is not actually rag, but rather a piece of music that used the word "rag" in the title to interest the buyer. It's just another "fake" rag.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.110.254 ( talk • contribs)
I have removed the accuracy tag as the issues seem to have been resolved. Capitalistroadster 06:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This list could be expanded massively by an hour or two in my vinyl collection. When The Sting , with incomplete snatches of Joplin's good stuff led to the Joplin Revival of the 70's, several good recordings were released.
One was a Biograph Release of Rolls Played on a Bechstein upright, with a committee to agree on tempos, as these tended to vary on the rolls as well as between instruments. When listening to rolls there is the barely-perceptible sound of the tempo rising as the pin rolled to the bottom. In my neighborhood pizza parlor there was a well-maintained upright player and many Joplin rolls, some recorded by Joplin himself. I found it interesting how often he played lovely "grace notes" that were NOT included in his scores, and which he often reminded artists NOT to play.
Nonesuch released two LPs of Joshua Rifkin playing the best arrow-straight, (non-stylized), recordings of Joplin's piano I ever heard. I saw Rifkin in concert in La Jolla California, and he was as good or better at interpreting Joplin live as anyone ever recorded.
The release that brought me to appreciate Joplin was Gunter Schuler, and the New England Conservatory Ragtime Ensemble recording of "The Red Back Book." These were orchestral arrangements by Joplin. KPBS in San Diego played, "Sugar Cane", and "The Easy Winners", and for the first time in my life I went directly to Tower Records and bought the LP. Schuler later released, "Palm Leaf Rag", an album of his own orchestral arrangements, (played by the NECRE), of Joplin Piano Music. User:W8IMP 0524, 05 January 2007 (UTC)
Anyone wanna tackle getting all the links cleaned up? At a glance, most of what's there fails WP:EL. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please do something about the above statement. As far as I can make out from the text (apologies if I've missed something), Joplin married twice, in which case, the statement is plainly wrong. Either way, its syntax is way out! Regards, -- Technopat 21:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
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WHAT INSTRUMENTS DID JOPLIN PLAY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.61.25 ( talk) 15:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Theres is only the Plesant Moments played by himself. The other rolls are all arranged rolls. See footnotes on de:Scott Joplin. Gerhard51 ( talk) 09:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
This statement is incorrect. Seven Connorized rolls and one Aeolian Uni-Record roll are labelled as 'Played by Scott Joplin'. The Connorized rolls have been heavily edited, including quantized (making the tempo perfect) and having embellishments added by an editor (the walking bass) but the Aeolian roll is pretty much untouched and is probably almost exactly as Joplin sat down and played it that day in 1916. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
125.236.172.96 (
talk)
12:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
By some of the massive chords and wide skips in certain piano pieces penned by Scott Joplin, I wonder if he had large hands. I have the same hunch for classical composers Robert Schumann (1810-1856), and Cesar Franck (1822-1890). Musicwriter ( talk) 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Seriously. Some articles I can understand, but what in the world makes this article such a target? Both obvious and sneaky...is it one person who keeps using multiple IPs, or is it linked from some places very well travled by vandals? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Ben/Melodia, Every time I see vandalism on this page, I ask myself the same question. How could anyone get a thrill out of such silly, destructive rubbish?. I can understand, but will never condone racial slurs, but how does saying, "...he was gay and cr*pp*d on the lawn...", amuse this poor, lost soul? How would one suppose this poor person's mother would feel if she ever found out?-- W8IMP 00:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Again. I noticed a small syntax error and corrected that, but then realized the entire page had been vandalized. I'm a bit new to revisions, I hope I got it right. I think this page needs to be locked, as it appears we have ongoing attempts at pernicious vandalism. Dfrauzel 00:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Should it be mentioned that he alledgely could travel in time? Also, he was keenly interested in popular tennis. http://snltranscripts.jt.org/02/02fjoplin.phtml http://snltranscripts.jt.org/03/03ejoplin.phtml That is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThomasJCyrus ( talk • contribs) 20:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Quote from article: ... he did record seven piano rolls in 1916; "Maple Leaf Rag" (for Connorized and Aeolian companies), "Something Doing," "Magnetic Rag," "Ole Miss Rag," "Weeping Willow Rag" and "Pleasant Moments - Ragtime Waltz" (all for Connorized). These are the only records of his playing we have ...
I'm up for doing this split. Any discussion? Stepheng3 ( talk) 15:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions two marriages of Scott Joplin: one to Belle in 1900 or earlier, and one to Lottie Stokes in 1909.
So the following sentence is inexplicable:
"Their" wedding? Whose wedding is this? Freddie and Freddie's wife? Freddie and Scott Joplin's wedding? A wedding between Scott Joplin and an unnamed woman? Even assuming that Freddie Alexander is female, grammatically there is no antecedent for "their". — Lawrence King ( talk) 04:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
It is described in the text as "award-winning", but there is no reference for that either in the Joplin article, or in the Treemonisha one. Joplin certainly was award winning, even if that was posthumous, but his opera? I'll remove the phrase until we have further information.
On another note, I've realised this article lacks any analysis of the music itself. I'll take a first look at expanding that section with what sources I have. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 11:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
What happened to Belle? The article says he married her around 1900 and then it says he married Freddie Alexander in 1904. Did he divorce her? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gambit2392 ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. You can find my detailed review on the comments page. Article is B-class, but might be brought to GA with some work. If you have comments or questions, feel free to leave them here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 16:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for a picture of John Still Stark, and found it on "The State Historical Society of Missouri's" Website. It's a dot.Edu. So it should be creditable. Clicked on the "Scott Joplin Biography" link, and there it was! Not only his "Signature," but two pictures and one cartoon of him. One taken from the front cover of his sheet music “Swipesy Cake Walk,” 1900. And the other picture taken [taken from American Musician, June 17, 1907, Performing Arts Reading Room, Library of Congress].
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/joplin.shtml#marshall
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/joplinsignature.jpg
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/joplinstark.html
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/stark.jpg
http://shs.umsystem.edu/famousmissourians/musicians/joplin/images/13-LC-Joplin.jpg
So what do you guys think? I'm pretty sure it's all public domain. And we could at least use the picture of John Stark.-- Morahman7vn ( talk) 05:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
And they do have some good looking References and Resources.-- Morahman7vn ( talk) 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Some good additions to the lead, but there are some problems with certain passages - was the Pulitzer prize actually awarded for Treemonisha? this suggests its for his work as a whole. I removed the final sentence because it seemed too POV and without reference. For example, it called the revival of interest in Joplin's music "unprecendented". Really? Had interest in music revivals not happened before? It also made the faux pas of calling The Entertainer a song. Last time I checked it wasn't, unless you're refering to a different version. My computer cut off the comment in the edit summary so I couldn't finish the thought; sorry about that all. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 14:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Been making some changes to the body which I'll try to get back to in a few days. In the meantime, any suggestions, corrections, further additions, or other ideas would be helpful. Right now, a Google search for Scott Joplin gets close to a million results, with this Wiki article being #1. And with Joplin being such a vital source of our musical heritage, I think he deserves the best bio we can give him. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 02:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This section has gotten scrambled. If Freddie Alexander died in 1904, then the move in 1900 would not have been "subsequently". -- Stepheng3 ( talk) 03:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The section below was copied (not cut) from the "Music styles" section. If anyone has any suggestions for rephrasing and simplifying this paragraph, it would certainly give me great solace and felicity. My hunch is that for the average reader it's a real slow drag trying to make sense of it, and a good rewrite would give it a more euphonic sound.
Any volunteers? -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 07:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Below is a copy of the contents before and after new material was added. Any ideas on how the structure should be revised can be put in this discussion section. It's quick to move entire sections around or even divide or combine subsections, so restructure ideas can come anytime. You'll notice that my last edits were to pull out and combine the details about his family life, which were comingled with his music background and where he lived - sometimes within the same sentence. I split up a section to make it easier to see which areas need more detail (i.e. divide and conquer.) I'll try to add more details over time and any feedback or other edits and additions would be useful.
The Bach article structure is OK because there's enough detail to fill in for a time period. Joplin's would have a long way to go to match that kind of outline but with more additions it might work. BTW, I didn't think that having Bach's "Family members" section inserted between "Musical style" and "Works" was the best place for it. In any case, moving sections around is simple.
|
Outline suggestions below -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Proposed Contents
1 Early years
3 Personal life and marriages
4 Final years and early death
2 Music career
5 Legacy
6 Revival
7 Other awards and recognition
8 References
9 External links
|}
I haven't been clever enough to renumber the sections, but I think the idea is clear. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Existing questionable sections
I'd like to expand on his Treemonisha opera so am giving some advance notice and thoughts:
The main factor in my upcoming additions is that they will be mostly autobiographical in nature. I presume this is fairly unusual for operas. As I add more details and sources the question will gradually arise as to how to use or categorize the related section. Some questions might relate to whether part of the details should be cut or copied to the the Treemonisha article; others could involve treating the opera as a major section of subsection (as it is now.) But obviously a lot depends on what the text will look like when it's in, so I propose and wait-and-see attitude till I get it written. As material is added, I'll probably try experimenting with different ways of laying this out and might try some section heading changes as part of it.
The good news is that I desire to leave it up to all editors to reach consensus and decide after it's in what should be cut, changed, moved, etc. And as we all know, it's a quicker to trim branches off a tree than it is to grow one. I hope to have most of my new material added over the next 3-4 days, after which time we can all sharpen out pruning shears. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I had some more material for other sections that I thought I'd better work in first.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 05:19, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
In relation to the other sections, this one seems too heavily weighted and redundant of observations. It probably deserves more than simply saying he was a better composer of music than a pianist, but considering his claim to fame is more as a composer anyway, the minutiae makes it a barrier to get through the article, IMO. I'll try to trim it down so the essence is there and the issue stays in proportion to the rest. It's most all taken from the Berlin book anyway so there's no problem reinserting facts when needed. If anyone feels that I've trimmed out too much, feel free to put anything back. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 03:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This may explain the differences in opinion of those observing Joplin's playing in the late 1890s and in the early 1910s. In the 1976 TV series All You Need is Love, Eubie Blake recalled listening to a later Joplin performance and was shocked as he performed the "Maple Leaf Rag". [1]
While Joplin never made an audio recording, he did record seven piano rolls in 1916; "Maple Leaf Rag" (for Connorized and Aeolian companies), "Something Doing," "Magnetic Rag," "Ole Miss Rag," " Weeping Willow" and "Pleasant Moments - Ragtime Waltz" (all for Connorized). These are the only records of his playing we have, and are interesting for the embellishments added by Joplin to his Connorized performances, although studying other Connorized rolls of that era reveals they may well have been added during the production process by staff artists, rather than Joplin himself. The roll of "Pleasant Moments" was thought lost until August 2006, when a piano roll collector in New Zealand discovered a surviving copy. It has been claimed that the uneven nature of some of Joplin's piano rolls, such as one of the recordings of "Maple Leaf Rag" mentioned above, documented the extent of Joplin's physical deterioration due to syphilis. A comparison of the two "Maple Leaf Rag" player-piano rolls made by Joplin in 1916, one in April the other in June, has been described as "... shocking. The second version is disorganized and completely distressing to hear." [2]: xxxix While the irregularities may also be due to the primitive technology used to record the rolls, rolls recorded by other artists for the same company around the same time are noticeably smoother.
Although I'll be adding more details, I notice when scanning all the sections that the Revival section looks gigantic in comparison. My impression is that it looks at least three times the size it needs to be to keep it practical and the article sections balanced. Reading the material is very complex with all the dates, places, and names, and without any section breaks for organization. On the other hand, a section on Revival should be compact enough not to require sections, hence the size issue. In the alternative, we could have another article on just the revival of ragtime generally, and leave enough here for Joplin's basics and a see more link. Just my opinion.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 06:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing the revival section, with new subheads, I think there is still too much here. Since facts have no doubt been added piecemeal over a long time, I don't think I'll mess with it. What I did was copy the section here and struck out text that I feel can be cut (except any needed cites). I think the revival section could be nicely summarized in 2 or 3 paragraphs. I would keep out any trivia and minute details since this section, coming after the main article and legacy, should be easier to read and understand. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 20:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Revival
After his death in 1917, Joplin's music and ragtime in general waned in popularity as new forms of musical styles, such as jazz and novelty piano, emerged. Even so, Jazz bands and recording artists such as Tommy Dorsey in 1936, Jelly Roll Morton in 1939 and J. Russell Robinson in 1947 released recordings of Joplin ragtime compositions ragtime on 78 RPM records.
Between 1902 and 1961 more recordings of the Maple Leaf Rag were released by more artists than for any other Joplin rag. [3]
- 1960s
In the 1960s, a small-scale reawakening of interest in classic ragtime was underway among some American music scholars.
In 1961, composer and performer Trebor Tichenor began publishing The Ragtime Review and hosting ragtime performances aboard a St. Louis riverboat named Goldenrod. In New York City, William "Bill" Bolcom learned of the existence of the opera Treemonisha in 1966 and began to search for it, finding that Rudi Blesh had published it a few years prior. Bolcom arranged with Thomas J. "T.J." Anderson for a full orchestration of the work and, in the meantime, began playing and composing rags, sending sheet music back and forth with his friends William "Bill" Albright and Peter Winkler, a mathematician and fan of ragtime. Blesh's friend Max Morath introduced them to the breadth of Joplin's rags. In 1968, Bolcom and Albright interested Joshua Rifkin, a young musicologist, in the body of Joplin's work. Together, they hosted an occasional ragtime-and-early-jazz evening on WBAI radio. [4]: 179–182
- Joshua Rifkin
In November 1970, Rifkin released a recording called Scott Joplin Piano Rags [5] on the classical label Nonesuch. It sold 100,000 copies in its first year and eventually became Nonesuch's first million-selling record. [6] Record stores found themselves for the first time putting ragtime in the classical music section.
The album was nominated in 1971 for two Grammy Award categories: Best Album Notes and Best Instrumental Soloist Performance (without orchestra). Rifkin was also under consideration for a third Grammy for a recording not related to Joplin, but at the ceremony on March 14, 1972, Rifkin did not win in any category. [7]
- New York publishing
In January 1971, Harold C. Schonberg, music critic at the New York Times, having just heard the Rifkin album, wrote a featured Sunday edition article entitled "Scholars, Get Busy on Scott Joplin!" [8] Schonberg's call to action has been described as the catalyst for classical music scholars, the sort of people Joplin had battled all his life, to conclude that Joplin was a genius. [4]: 184 Vera Brodsky Lawrence of the New York Public Library published a two-volume set of Joplin works in June 1971, entitled The Collected Works of Scott Joplin, stimulating a wider interest in the performance of Joplin's music.
- Treemonisha productions
On October 22, 1971 excerpts from Treemonisha were presented in concert form at Lincoln Center
with musical performances by Bolcom, Rifkin and Mary Lou Williams supporting a group of singers. [9] Finally, on January 28, 1972, T.J. Anderson's orchestration of Treemonisha was staged for two consecutive nights, sponsored by the Afro-American Music Workshop of Morehouse College in Atlanta, with singers accompanied by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra [10] under the direction of Robert Shaw, and choreography by Katherine Dunham. Schonberg remarked in February 1972 that the "Scott Joplin Renaissance" was in full swing and still growing. [11]
Gunther Schuller
Gunther Schuller, a french horn player and music professor, formed the New England Ragtime Ensemble in 1972 from students at the New England Conservatory. He had received mimeographed copies of individual instrumental parts of the Red Back Book from Vera Lawrence, and was introducing Joplin tunes into the middle of otherwise 'classical' concerts of American turn-of-the-century music. Angel Records approached him with a record deal and, in 1973, produced a recording called Joplin: The Red Back Book.
- The Sting
After Marvin Hamlisch produced the soundtrack for The Sting in 1973, won an Oscar for his adaptation of Joplin's music, [12], and got his adaptation of The Entertainer on the Billboard Hot 100 music chart in 1974, "the whole nation has begun to take notice...", wrote the New York Times. [13]
New York Magazine, in 1979, wrote that Nonesuch Records, by giving artists like Rifkin their "first hearing" by recording Joplin's music, "created, almost alone, the Scott Joplin revival." [14] In his interview with the Times, Rifkin stated, "Let's face it - the big factor here is the score for The Sting."
However, Rifkin pointed out that the movie's score was a "direct stylistic lift from two sources. ...What you get in the movie is piano solos played exactly like mine and the orchestral arrangements done exactly like his [Schuller]." [13] The Grammy-nominated recordings remained at the top of Billboard's classical charts for some time. [15]Edward Berlin tends to agree
that the movie was an important factor in the revival: "Led by The Entertainer, one of the most popular pieces of the mid-1970s,a revival of his music resulted in events unprecedented in American musical history." He further added, "never before had any composer's music been so acclaimed by both the popular and classical music worlds." [16] The New York Times described some of the revival's effects on the public:
- "Joplin's music, happily, is just about omnipresent these days. His The Entertainer ... reverberates from every jukebox and car radio; companies like Kodak and Ford are using rags ... as background music for television commercials; ragtime renditions by everybody from Percy Faith to E. Power Biggs ... crowd together on record store shelves." [13]
Rifkin had also been affected by the revival: In 1974 he said, "I did a tour this fall and various other concerts since then, including two in London - there's a craze in England as well - and made something like ten appearances on BBC television this spring ... This past May I gave a concert in London's Royal Festival Hall, which seats about 3,200 people, and it was sold out within four days..." [13]
;Ballet Also that year the Royal Ballet, under Kenneth MacMillan created Elite Syncopations, a ballet based on tunes by Joplin, Max Morath and others. In addition, 1974 also saw the premiere by the Los Angeles Ballet of Red Back Book, choreographed by John Clifford to Joplin rags from the collection of the same name, including both solo piano performances and arrangements for full orchestra.
- Treemonisha on Broadway
In May 1975, Treemonisha was staged in a full opera production by the Houston Grand Opera.
The company toured briefly, then settled into an eight-week run in New York on Broadway at the Palace Theater in October and November. This appearance was directed by Gunther Schuller, and soprano Carmen Balthrop alternated with Kathleen Battle as the title character. [10] An "original Broadway cast" recording was produced. Because of the lack of national exposure given to the brief Morehouse College staging of the opera in 1972, many Joplin scholars wrote that the Houston Grand Opera's 1975 show was the first full production. [9]
- After his death in 1917, Joplin's music and ragtime in general waned in popularity as new forms of musical styles, such as jazz and novelty piano, emerged. Even so, Jazz bands and recording artists such as Tommy Dorsey in 1936, Jelly Roll Morton in 1939 and J. Russell Robinson in 1947 released recordings of Joplin ragtime compositions ragtime on 78 RPM records.
Between 1902 and 1961 more recordings of the Maple Leaf Rag were released by more artists than for any other Joplin rag.[17]
- New York Magazine in 1979, credited Nonesuch Records with creating the ragtime revival with the release of records like Rifkins' [18] , although Rifkin himself credited The Sting. < The Grammy-nominated recordings went to the top of Billboard's classical charts in 1971. [19]
- The New York Times described some of the revival's effects on the public:
- "Joplin's music, happily, is just about omnipresent these days. His The Entertainer ... reverberates from every jukebox and car radio; companies like Kodak and Ford are using rags ... as background music for television commercials; ragtime renditions by everybody from Percy Faith to E. Power Biggs ... crowd together on record store shelves." [13]
I've found a midi file of the Piano Roll recording of the Maple Leaf, as recorded by Joplin in 1916, which I think would be very suitable for inclusion in the "Performer" section as it would help to illustrate the deterioration of Joplin's piano-playing.
The file can be found here. The owner of the site is a Wikipedia user ( User:PlayerRoll), so I left a note on his talk page asking if he could upload the midi (which he says is free to download). No response since November 08 so I will Be Bold. Given that the original recording is now 93 years old, it will be in the Public Domain (see also here).
There is an issue with the scanning in process done by User:PlayerRoll because it may conceivably be seen as a derivative work, however, no copyright notice exists on his site, or within the file as far as I can see. However, in the absence of clear evidence either way, I'd be cautious about this. There is a guideline here, which suggests usinig on 1 minute of the track in the event that the audio is copyrighted. I have re-recorded the midi file as an ogg-vorbis audio file, and I'll upload 1 minute of that (the Trio as played in this recording is very untidy). Few! Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
In an effort to keep the topics and sections in balance, I question whether a section of "performance skills" belongs. Note that there is little in the article about his performances besides what he did in small clubs (i.e. Maple Leaf), so the next question might be whether he "performed" or "played." Even the Irving Berlin article skipped over his "performances" and focused on his key profession - composer, as he was not noted for being a "pianist." After all, we're not discussing people noted for their "performances" as if they played Carnegie Hall, or even a playhouse. Same goes for someone like Al Jolson, who also played piano, but is never discussed as either "playing" or "performing" piano music, but simply singing.
Personally, I always assume that any piano music composer knows how to play the piano, so going into detail on their changing skill level, at least beyond mention, seems distracting and might even diminish the attention to his composition skills for the average visitor to the article. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 23:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, modern research by ragtime history Edward A. Berlin has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate - the most likely approximate date being the first half of 1867.
Yet the lede says "June 1867 - January 1868". That's the latter half of 1867. I have no idea which is correct, but these two statements are inconsistent. -- JackofOz ( talk) 00:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the stamp image File:Scott Joplin stamp 1983.jpg for a second time because the recent re-licence of the image is incorrect. This stamp image is not a public domain image. All US stamps issued after 1978 are copyright which is why it must be removed and deleted. If you doubt what I say please read the {{ Non-free USGov-USPS stamp}} template carefully. It is quite clear. Because this is a non-free image of a stamp it fails WP:NFC#Images which clearly states: Stamps and currency: For identification of the stamp or currency, not its subject, which was the use here, so it may not be used in this article. Sorry. ww2censor ( talk) 01:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
This seemed the best place to put this. Most, if not all, of the pages on Joplin's works make reference to the date it was "copyrighted", which seems very odd. Why not just say published like normal? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ ( talk) 14:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
It's been almost a year since the last assessment on this page, and there have been substantial improvements since then thanks to the work by Wikiwatcher and others. While there are a few minor things I'd like to change / improve (and a citation to support joplin's "amazing" improvisational ability in the lead, to name but one) none of these look impossible to achieve. What does everyone think? Shall we put it up for Good Article nomination? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 18:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
(UTC)
Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
A suggested ammendment to this section:
What do you think? I'd still want to use the Joplin Maple leaf recording in this section, to let the reader make up their own mind. The Pleasant Moments recording serves as a useful comparison. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
How's this? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 16:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I've trimmed the paragraph below as it pertains to a single event, described in minute detail, which seems to add little to the bio. While it would work in a large book, like Berlin's, in this article it seems off topic and irrelevant to anything else, and IMO at least, distracts from the flow of the overall biography. I've tried to summarize the story but couldn't even do that without it seeming out of context. I'm placing it here for others to offer thoughts if this kind of anecdote fits anywhere. BTW, "truth" alone is not a suitable reason to add the story.
In 1896, Joplin was performing in the region around Waco, Texas, when William Crush, a manager with the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railway, staged a publicity stunt ramming two locomotives, pulling heavily laden trains, head-on into each other at full speed in front of over 40 thousand spectators, killing three of them when the boilers exploded and hurtled debris into the crowd. Joplin commemorated the event with "The Great Crush Collision March" (which he dedicated to the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railway). The sheet music was published in Temple, Texas, by John R. Fuller in 1896. [36]
-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
As suggested above, including:
I'm currently in the middle of smoothing out the page references; making them standardised, adding all books referenced into the bibliography with isbn numbers & google books pages where possible, and linking the references to them.
In addition, I'm unhappy with the amount of quotations used on the page - they can be powerful, but have been overused. To quote WP:Quotations:
Third, while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Wikipedia. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short. Long quotations not only add to the length of many articles that are already too long, but they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information.
— WP:QUOTE
The article has improved immensely since Wikiwatcher1 went through the available sources. I think now is the time to streamline the text; quotations are apt if they highlight POV for example, but are generally unnecessary where there is little or no controversy over the events.
An example. I changed this:
After moving to Texarkana a few years after Scott was born, Jiles began working as a common laborer for the railroad. Florence did laundry and cleaning for additional income. Berlin writes that they "were a musical family and provided their son a rudimentary musical education." At the age of seven, for instance, Scott was allowed to play piano in both a neighbor's house and at the home of an attorney while his mother worked at housecleaning
into this:
After moving to Texarkana a few years after Scott was born, Jiles began working as a common laborer for the railroad. Florence did laundry and cleaning for additional income. Joplin was given a rudimentary musical education by his musical family; at the age of seven Scott was allowed to play piano in both a neighbor's house and at the home of an attorney while his mother worked
Others may disagree, but I think the current version of the above is tidier and flows better. The direct mention of Berlin is not needed since he is named in the citation. I think it's important that we go through the text further to remove other instances of the same, plus block quotes where they are not needed. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Just watched a music documentary called, "All You Need Is Love: Disc 2," (5 in full set) that had close to an hour of outstanding old ragtime footage and detailed interviews with Rudi Blesh and Eubie Blake. Eubie described watching him play after the symptoms took hold. It's available on Netflix. Apparently it's from a British TV documentary from 1977, but I don't think it was ever shown in the U.S. It was recently put on DVD and the quality is excellent. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 02:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Some of the rephrasing would be clearer, I think, if put in a chonological order, and with some more intro. details about Weiss. As it reads now, Weiss is introduced in the paragraph without any description of who he was or why he is even mentioned - hence his connection to Joplin seems a bit abstract. It also discussed his receiving money "years later" but is followed by what he actually did to cause that, instead of the reverse order. I would try to rephrase a bit to fill in those missing areas. Otherwise, the rephrasing and shortening the material is pretty good. Since this is such a critical phase in his development, however, I wouldn't condense it too much since any details about his childhood helps readers get to know his personality and better understand his youthful world. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 20:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
In addition to the above, there seem to areas in the text which need further explanation because I don't think the current text is as clear as it could be. I'll add it to our list of things to improve:
In the article of Michael Jackson, he is described as "American" and not "African American."
The article should be modeled after the MJ article, with the primary mention as "American" and following elsewhere that he is African-American.
Here is what I've done: He is described as "American" in the first sentence, and then "African-American" in the biographical section of the main article, moved along with the post-slavery generation tidbit.
Scott Joplin and MJ should be described fairly and equally. Facial ( talk) 20:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
From all the sources that I have read, Joplin only composed one opera: "Treemonisha". Did he really compose two operas as this article states? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.195.61 ( talk) 19:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I changed mentions of "Scott" in the first paragraph after the lede to "Joplin" to keep it consistent with the rest of the article. Stepheng3 ( talk) has requested that I revert the change - not that I wish to go against the opinions of editors who watch this page but I think that keeping a consistency throughout benefits the article and what existed before did jar. I can see merit in having "Scott" in the paragraph mentioning the parents and the rest of the Joplin family, but I thought it would be obvious who we were talking about given the context. I am more than willing to change back should others disagree with me on this. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
A suggested improvement to the Lead:
What does the community think? I didn't think the Lead as it stands fully discusses the biographical element, and in some places (like the mentioning of his improvisational ability) is not supported by all the sources. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 22:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
He was "blessed with an amazing ability to improvise at the piano," writes opera historian Elise Kirk, and was able to enlarge his talent "with the music he heard around him," which was rich with the sounds of gospel hymns and spirituals, dance music, plantation songs, syncopated rhythms, blues, and choruses.<ref name=Kirk/>{{rp|190}} After he studied music with several local teachers, his talent was noticed by a[[Germans|German]] [[immigrant]] music teacher, Julius Weiss, who chose to give the 11-year-old boy lessons free of charge. Joplin was taught music theory, keyboard technique, and an appreciation of various European music styles, such as folk and opera. As an adult, Joplin also studied at the [[George R. Smith College]], a [[historically black college]] (HBCU), in [[Sedalia, Missouri]]. "He composed music unlike any ever before written," according to Joplin biographer Edward Berlin.<ref>Jefferson, Margo. ''The New York Times'', July 20, 1994.[http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/20/books/books-of-the-times-setting-the-rhythm-for-a-new-era.html "Books of the Times; Setting the Rhythm for a New Era."] Retrieved on November 8, 2009.</ref> Eventually, "the piano-playing public clamored for his music; newspapers and magazines proclaimed his genius; musicians examined his scores with open admiration."<ref name=Berlin/>{{rp|3}} Ragtime historian Susan Curtis noted that "when Joplin syncopated his way into the hearts of millions of Americans at the turn of the century, he helped revolutionize American music and culture."<ref name=operaam>{{cite web|url=http://web.archive.org/web/20050218222938/http://www.operaam.org/encore/tree.htm|title=Opera America|accessdate=2009-03-14}}</ref>
Added to do list for discussion and aid while editing. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 20:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
There appears to be disagreement over the mechanics of how Joplin was playing the piano while his mother was working. Does anyone have access to the source? What does it say with regards to this? Unless it is in the source, it is speculation and shouldn't be in here! I'll try and check the sources I have. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 06:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I found it hard to follow who was who in his childhood because it would have sentences talking about Scott's family members and then the next sentence would start with the name "Joplin" only. I'm unsure whether this is referring to the family member that was just spoken of (which, grammatically, it is) or if it is referring to Scott Joplin himself. A first name would help here. 205.208.213.99 ( talk)
It seems important to include any uncommon racial aspects to his bio. Joplin himself, born right after the Civil War ended, felt the black-white dimension was important enough to write his final and most important opera, Treemonisha, with that as a basis:
For the same reason, the fact that he was taught music when a child by a white person, with the added dimension of religious differences, and was taught for free, adds relevant depth to his childhood, and as his biographers pointed out, may have influenced his writings. Maybe this kind of relationship is less significant in 2010, but it clearly was back then. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Any of the trimming I have done hasn't omitted anything currently in the article; I have folded some quotations into the text, removed some where the point made was not helpful to the sense of the text, and improved some where I felt the sense of the original had been lost. I don't think we have addressed racial issues in Joplin's life very much at all, and I think you are right Wikiwatcher1 to point it out. I haven't read Albrecht, and a Google Book search did not allow me to see the article (there is a $90 subscription to the web-site of the College Music Symposium which I didn't feel willing to put out for), and Berlin doesn't mention Weiss' religion. I think there are various things which we should consider when moving forward:
I would favour removing the reference to Weiss' religion. I think we should add another item to our "to do" list; explore Joplin's impact and significance as a composer who happened to be African-American. Major Bloodnok ( talk) 21:20, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Album names are italicized, but simple song titles are put in quotes, not italicized, per MOS:MUSIC. For instance, "Maple Leaf Rag" was one of the songs on Rifkin's Scott Joplin Piano Rags album. Binksternet ( talk) 22:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
In response to the Major's last question, in 2009 I stumbled upon Irving Berlin's article (another ragtime composer, by coincidence,) and felt it needed some improvement. So that article is a pretty good example of what I would do here if we had the sources. But I don't believe we do. I was able to add about 25 new cites, mostly books, to the Irving Berlin article, but there are only a few about Joplin - so were' quickly limited.
What I do think Berlin and Joplin have in common, it would appear, is the importance of including any details - even some minutia - about their early years before and immediately after they took up writing music - the formative years. I've heard that 75% of the average person's personality is settled by the time they're 5 years old. For both Joplin and Berlin, they clearly had their minds set to be music writers in their teens. That's why I feel expanding that period, especially with 2nd. hand quotes, would help a lot. We even had some 1st hand quotes from Joplin's wife, I believe, but they were trimmed. I would add them back in context. It helps make him a real person.
The piano roll topic strikes me as tangential because it is used merely to support another somewhat tangential topic: his playing skills. But like Berlin, he was not primarily noted as a recording artist, and for Berlin, therefore, I only briefly mentioned his customized piano and the fact that he used mostly the black keys. For the piano roll material on Joplin, it seems a bit distracting as it changes the focus onto minute details about the evidence that implies Joplin's piano skills, good or bad. But again, I don't think many readers would even think about Joplin as a piano player over being a composer, so I'd condense it and keep the focus on Joplin.
I would probably do the same with the "Revival" section, and for the same reasons: let's write about Joplin the person; his life, family, friends, environment, associates, etc. There was, before some trimming, more details about the conflicts that Joplin's love of music had on both his early and later life. Edward Berlin surmises that it may have caused the breakup of his parents, remember. His mother, with little income as a housecleaner, bought him a piano. More details like those for his formative period I feel will help the article greatly. Most of the rephrasing you've done has been a valuable improvement and you've cleaned up a lot of disorganized material. Nice work! -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 23:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I'll flag this up here for anyone who watches this page; I've had a quick look through the article as it stands and I think it is in pretty good shape overall. The "to-do" list is still valid I think, but I would like to put this article up for GA nomination; at the very least it would be very useful to get an outsider's opinion on it. Any thoughts? Major Bloodnok ( talk) 19:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I saw a picture of Scottie J's grave and it said his birthday was November 24th 1868. COULD SOMEONE PLEASE ADD THIS IN????? Thanks, Cthornton799 ( talk) 16:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
OpenTTD offers two sets of "base music", and one of them is "Scott Joplin's Anthology". It is unknown to me, wheither the use of those MIDIs there is legal or not - OpenTTD itself is of questionable legality. Yura87 ( talk) 22:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
The peer review highlighted a couple of things, much of which I have fixed or tried to fix. The reviewer thought that the page could get through GAN, and I do agree with them. I think the New York section which is the part that is most obviously lacking in detail and needs expanding. I would like to take some of the cite news templates we have in the bulk of the text and put them into the bibliography section just to be tidy, but that's not a GA-critical thing. As per an earlier discussion I think it would be useful to see whether there is an assessment of Joplin's roll in the African-American community, specifically whether his experience was typical of the era (I don't think it was, but we need sources to say that), and whether he has been seen as a pioneer. Again, I don't think this is a GA-critical issue, but it's one we should address if / when we go for FA-status. I've put other things which were mentioned on to the "to do" list and I'll add this race one too.
I'll put this in for GAN once the New York section has been fleshed out. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 07:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The article seems to continually attract vandals. Maybe 99% of the time they're IPs, so page protection should help. I have a feeling that this article will need continual protection based on the number of different IPs and types of edits, mostly rude kids. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 08:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
One of his songs "solace" is used in the video game the Ship. It is mostly used in the main menu theme. I can tell because of the main piano piece. You can recognize that anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.216.249.141 ( talk) 01:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk · contribs) 22:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: none found.
Linkrot: two found and fixed. [5]
I aim to post a substantive review within 48 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 23:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Rereading the article after a long pause, I tend to understand some of the issues listed. Unfortunately, calling sentences "clumsy" doesn't explain problems with precision. But IMO I think some serious pruning would help. However, pruning facts is tricky since they were added by someone who felt they improved the article, and becomes a subjective edit.
My guess is that about 15 - 20% of the article can be pruned and consolidated. I see a lot of complex sentences, many relying on semicolons to expand details. More than a few have unnecessary minutia, trivia, or irrelevant details, and trimming them might help unify and simplify the readability. Taking a few sentences from the 1st paragraph of the 1st section gives an example:
Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, research has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate – the most likely approximate date being the second half of 1867.[3] In addition to Scott, other children of Giles and Florence were Monroe, Robert, Rose, William, and Johnny.
The 1st sentence can be simplified, and the 2nd one doesn't need the name of his siblings, IMO. I don't mind helping a bit, and would have no problem with anyone undoing anything. Joplin is an icon of American music history and deserves a GA designation if possible. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 22:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Scott Joplin, the second of six[1] children, was born in eastern Texas, outside of Texarkana,[2] to Giles Joplin and Florence Givins. His birth, like many others, represented the first post-slavery generation of African-Americans. Although for many years his birth date was accepted as November 24, 1868, research has revealed that this is almost certainly inaccurate – the most likely approximate date being the second half of 1867.[3] In addition to Scott, other children of Giles and Florence were Monroe, Robert, Rose, William, and Johnny.[4] His father was an ex-slave from North Carolina and his mother was a freeborn African American woman from Kentucky.[5]
Scott Joplin, the second of six children, was born in eastern Texas, outside of Texakarna at some point in the second half of 1867, and not as previously believed November 24th 1868[3]. His father Giles Joplin was an ex-slave from North Caroline and his mother, Florence Givins, was a freeborn African-American from Kentucky.
I've replaced the musical artist infobox with the Classical composer infobox. There is much discussion Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes here and elsewhere in the projects' pages. It seems sensible to replace the infobox with a shorter one as much of the information in the previous infobox is available in the lead or is subject to qualification - having it in the infobox is misleading. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 15:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The stated purpose of the removal of the longer infobox style for musical composers is as follows:
1. They often give trivia undue emphasis and prominence at the head of the article 2. They tend to become redundant (by duplicating the lead) 3. They can, conversely, become over-complex and thus vague, confused, or misleading, often compounding errors found elsewhere in the article, e.g. by confusing style and genre, setting forth haphazard lists of individual works, or highlighting the subject's trivial secondary or non-musical occupations.
However, none of these are the case in the "Scott Joplin" article: several of the instruments played by the composer are never mentioned elsewhere in the article, none of the occupations listed are non-musical or biographically trivial, and the historical era -- 1895-1917 -- is much more accurate and precise than simply "20th century". This infobox does not duplicate the lead; rather, it summarizes it in less than 50 words, vs. 500 words. In addition, there is no argument to be made concerning music genre vs. style, as the Wikipedia articles of Ragtime and march define both as "genres". Please discuss. 99.232.8.194 ( talk) 03:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Scott Joplin | |
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![]() Scott Joplin in June 1903. This picture also appears on the cover of The Cascades from 1904.
[38] | |
Background information | |
Birth name | Scott Joplin |
Born | c. late 1867 or early 1868 Northeast Texas |
Origin | Texarkana, Texas |
Died | April 1, 1917 (aged 49) New York City, New York |
Genres | Ragtime, march, waltz |
Instrument(s) | Piano, |
Years active | 1895–1917 |
We could of course decide to do without one; I'm not sure one way or the other. Classical composers Bach, Beethoven and Mozart don't have an infobox, while modern composers John Barry (composer), David Arnold, and Hans Zimmer do. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 19:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Would it make sense to have a list of significant recordings of Joplin's music? we have mentioned a number of them in his article, but i think a list would be nice.(mercurywoodrose) 75.61.130.86 ( talk) 06:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
The argument that Joplin should be referred to as an American pianist and not an African-American pianist, because African-American "is not a nationality", is redundant: please see the pages Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Booker T. Washington, Harriet Tubman, etc. Additionally, quite apart from the fact that Joplin lived in a society that was totally segregated by race, and would never have been seen as indistinctly "American", his own ethnic identity is a constantly recurring theme in his publications, with numerous references to "negro music", "genuine negro ragtime", and to audiences as "colored folks", "dark-town", "darkies", and so on, and is therefore very significant to the composer's biography and body of work. Joplin emphasizes the ethnic identity associated with ragtime, and was set to prove that black music was not necessarily trashy or "crude", as was the popular opinion of the time.
Please discuss here before editing the article. Brownsc ( talk) 04:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The guidelines are simple:
I am not wading into this because of the stated arguments. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 15:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Although I agree it is correct to explain that his race was important, the Lead now has two references to "African-American" - for the sake of style I think there should only be one. In addition (and this is something I think needs putting in the lead and in the article itself) there should be an explanation of the importance of his race to his music as has been discussed. Otherwise the reference to "African-American" might not be fully understood in context. Ben (Major Bloodnok) ( talk) 07:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The article underwent a major revision during March, 2009. Therefore many of the comments made below are no longer relevant.-- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 05:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This is an assessment of article
Scott Joplin by a member of the
Composers project, according to its
assessment criteria. This review was done by
Magicpiano.
If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.
Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.
Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
This is a nice article about one of my favorite composers. From a content perspective it seems reasonably complete, although there are some odd personal bio defects (what happened to the first two wives? I've seen the talk page -- get it in the article). Its structural issues (as well as the bio quirks) would probably be raised in a GA review: it needs more citations, the lead needs expansion, and the legacy section especially needs prose work.
Article is B-class; if it actually passes a GA review, it might be considered A-class. Magic ♪piano 16:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Berlin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).