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Dialect group of Saraiki | Subdialect | Where spoken | Alternate_names | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|
Saraiki (Central or Pure Saraiki) |
Saraiki Language | Multan District, Lodhran District, Bahawalpur District, Muzaffargarh District, Rahim Yar Khan District, Dera Ghazi Khan District, Rajanpur District, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India | 1.
Riyāsatī in Bahawalpur District. 2. Ḍerāwālī in Dera Ghazi Khan |
1.According to Masica, the two names Bahāwalpurī and Riyāsatī are locally specific names for the Multani dialect group, possibly specific dialects within the group.
[1] According to Shackle, they instead denote a distinct dialect group. Also according to Shackle, the Bahawalpur District of Punjab Province (i.e., within its 1976 boundaries) is split between Mūltānī in the north and Bahāwalpurī in the south, with the dialect of Bahawalpur city being of blend of these two. 2.According to Masica, this use of the name Ḍerāwālī is to be distinguished from its use as an alternate name for a different dialect group (see following row). The spelling with retroflex 'Ḍ' instead of 'D' is according to Masica. [1] The name dialect name "Thaḷī" is used to refer to the local dialects of both Dera Ghazi Khan and Dera Ismail Khan, but "Thaḷī" in the former is the Multani dialect and "Ḍerāwālī " in the latter is the Thaḷī dialect. [1]: 239ff : Appendix I:220-245 |
Thaḷī, Shahpori | Bhakkar District, Layyah District, Dera Ismail Khan District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Tank District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India | 1.Thalochi and Thaḷochṛi in Bhakkar District. 2.Jaṭkī; Hindko or Hindki on the west of Indus River. 3. Thaḷī in Dera Ismail Khan District and Tank District |
1.Named after the
Thal Desert, a region bordered by the Indus River to the west and the Jhelum and Chenab Rivers to the east. 2. Hindko is classified as Lahnda language whose southern dialects are closer to Saraiki. Sometimes, in Mianwali, it is referred as Mianwali di Boli and has close link with Hindko. | |
Sindhi-Saraiki | Northern part of Sindh including Kashmore District, Jacobabad District, Shikarpur District, Tando Muhammad Khan District, Tando Allahyar District, Sobho Khan Mastoi, Kamal Khan Mastoi, Thatta District, Sujawal, Dadu District and Ghotki District. | Sireli (of north) | Dialect of Saraiki which has some features of the Sindhi language. Sindhi Saraiki is also categorized as a dialect of Sindhi language. In the Interier Sindh, 40% of population speak Sindhi-Saraiki. | |
Jhangvi | Jhang District, Faisalabad District, Gujrat District, Mandi Bahauddin, Chakwal, Hafizabad, Gujranwala District, Jangal Bar tract of Faisalabad District, Okara, pakpattan and all regions encompassing the former Montgomery District | Jhangochi, Jhangi | Jhangvi dialects actually be closer to the Saraiki language. It also includes Nissoani sub-dialect or local name of Jhangi spoken by a tribe, Nissoana, as of 1919 in northern parts of Jhang District. Another sub-dialect of Jhangi, Kacchī, is named for alluvial desert plain of Kacchi, southwest of Jhang town.Dialect of Jhangochi spoken by the pastoral tribes of the mentioned areas, such as the Kharals, Wattus, Johiyas, who used to rear cattle and sheep in the jungles, before irrigation of the region. It is also called Chenavari (Cināwaṛī or Cinhāwaṛī) due to the name of an area on the right bank of the Chenab River. |
References
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Balochki language and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 3#Balochki language until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 18:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
May be an issue of reading /comprehension is visiable. It is a Language -variety. Read the section Saraiki variety in the source. There are numerous publications some claiming Dialect some as unrelated language. Context is important, Lahnda (Western Punjabi) is a linguistic reality. Western Punjabi link can not be ignored altogather. The term Language variety is a mid view accepted by linguistics across the globe. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 17:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Saraiki is an Indo-Aryan languagematches with the opening sentences of virtually all articles about Indo-Aryan languages (cf. Bengali language, Awadhi language, Marathi language, Sinhala language), including language varieties with a similarly debated status (e.g. Sylheti language). – Austronesier ( talk) 11:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The classification of the Indo-Aryan languages is controversial.Exactly. And this is why using "Indo-Aryan" as a primary label is an elegant and neutral solution, since the Indo-Aryan subgroup itself is uncontroversial. And it is by no means "incorrect". – Austronesier ( talk) 15:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
all sources accept that Lahnda has no local currency hence it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi.Yes, all sources confirm that "Lahnda" is a scholarly construct, but it doesn't appear unsuitable to Masica, Southworth and other scholars who freely use it, and not "Western Punjabi". – Austronesier ( talk) 15:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Primary objective Vs StandardWhy a person will visit Saraiki page? he dont know what is Saraiki ? He opens this page and is told that it is an Indo Aryan Language. He may think It is just like Maldivian language because that page also tell that it is an Indo Aryan Language. That is gross misleading that is because if you visit linguistic scholary data e.g. this one [2] you will find only 46% Lexical similarity of Multani (Southern Lahnda) currently named as Saraiki. Alternatively if you compare with Standard Punjabi its highest 90% even more than other Western Punjabi (Lahnda) varieties Hindko 87% Pothohari 82%. So why give wrong information to him and make it very clear in the Lead that it has very strong relation with if not with Punjabi but atleast western punjabi.
Dialect or Seprate Language or More nuetral Language variety and Concept of long standingRead article it says it was historically considered as dialect of punjabi (you can say LONG STANDING for centuries) and in 1960s (just recentaly= NOT LONG STANDING) claimed and standardized as seprate language and if you research the backdrop it is more political than linguistic (For new seprate province read article Saraikistan). Still if you search over internet then you may come up hundreds of results showing it as dialect of Punjabi. So it is better to be nuetral and use a mid way like language variety.
Lahnda or western punjabiVery first use of title "Lahnda" was done by George A. Grierson as Western punjabi. On each page of his book he used only western punjabi in foot notes detailing Lahnda.Then you see my last two para above which clearly explain why it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi. And please be professional and dont play childish sock allegation game. I am not a cheater. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 04:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ! Two users Snusho and Austronesier has accepted the Variety position proposed by me after a series of argument. HistoryofIran your only position was about use of Lahnda & You proposed to move Lahnda page. Why moving? We use | everywhere in such situations on WP. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 04:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I have not accepted the changes by @LingoSouthAsia. I don't see the merit of not displaying Lahnda as Lahnda (plus I have pointed out that numerous sources – including the very sources mentioned by @LingoSouthAsia, e.g. Masica (1991) – use "Lahnda" rather than "Western Punjabi". Also, I have pointed out that "Indo-Aryan" is a good primary classifier for Saraiki, following the example of every WP article about Indo-Aryan varieties (and if sources are needed, why not follow a gold standard source such as the Journal of the International Phonetic Association: Saraiki (ISO 639-3:skr) is an Indo-Aryan language widely used in Pakistan and India
[4]).
Deriving tacit agreement from my rejection to engage in an edit war is absurd. Instead, I have invited them to self-revert [5] to follow our soft rules of good practice in a dispute—with known result: continued edit-warring leading to a block.
My first edit ever to this article was when I intervened in the slow edit war between @LingoSouthAsia and @Snusho in December, and restored the status quo ante. Actually, @Snusho already made a slight compromise with this version: [6]
Saraiki ... is an Indo-Aryan language variety of Lahnda group, thus accepting the change from "language" to "language variety".
In my first comment in this talk page, I have basically agreed with this slight change (and only this change), although I have suggested to adjust the wiki-links. – Austronesier ( talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
India,
Pakistan, and
Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Saraiki language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
Dialect group of Saraiki | Subdialect | Where spoken | Alternate_names | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|
Saraiki (Central or Pure Saraiki) |
Saraiki Language | Multan District, Lodhran District, Bahawalpur District, Muzaffargarh District, Rahim Yar Khan District, Dera Ghazi Khan District, Rajanpur District, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India | 1.
Riyāsatī in Bahawalpur District. 2. Ḍerāwālī in Dera Ghazi Khan |
1.According to Masica, the two names Bahāwalpurī and Riyāsatī are locally specific names for the Multani dialect group, possibly specific dialects within the group.
[1] According to Shackle, they instead denote a distinct dialect group. Also according to Shackle, the Bahawalpur District of Punjab Province (i.e., within its 1976 boundaries) is split between Mūltānī in the north and Bahāwalpurī in the south, with the dialect of Bahawalpur city being of blend of these two. 2.According to Masica, this use of the name Ḍerāwālī is to be distinguished from its use as an alternate name for a different dialect group (see following row). The spelling with retroflex 'Ḍ' instead of 'D' is according to Masica. [1] The name dialect name "Thaḷī" is used to refer to the local dialects of both Dera Ghazi Khan and Dera Ismail Khan, but "Thaḷī" in the former is the Multani dialect and "Ḍerāwālī " in the latter is the Thaḷī dialect. [1]: 239ff : Appendix I:220-245 |
Thaḷī, Shahpori | Bhakkar District, Layyah District, Dera Ismail Khan District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Tank District, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa, Derawal Nagar, Delhi, India | 1.Thalochi and Thaḷochṛi in Bhakkar District. 2.Jaṭkī; Hindko or Hindki on the west of Indus River. 3. Thaḷī in Dera Ismail Khan District and Tank District |
1.Named after the
Thal Desert, a region bordered by the Indus River to the west and the Jhelum and Chenab Rivers to the east. 2. Hindko is classified as Lahnda language whose southern dialects are closer to Saraiki. Sometimes, in Mianwali, it is referred as Mianwali di Boli and has close link with Hindko. | |
Sindhi-Saraiki | Northern part of Sindh including Kashmore District, Jacobabad District, Shikarpur District, Tando Muhammad Khan District, Tando Allahyar District, Sobho Khan Mastoi, Kamal Khan Mastoi, Thatta District, Sujawal, Dadu District and Ghotki District. | Sireli (of north) | Dialect of Saraiki which has some features of the Sindhi language. Sindhi Saraiki is also categorized as a dialect of Sindhi language. In the Interier Sindh, 40% of population speak Sindhi-Saraiki. | |
Jhangvi | Jhang District, Faisalabad District, Gujrat District, Mandi Bahauddin, Chakwal, Hafizabad, Gujranwala District, Jangal Bar tract of Faisalabad District, Okara, pakpattan and all regions encompassing the former Montgomery District | Jhangochi, Jhangi | Jhangvi dialects actually be closer to the Saraiki language. It also includes Nissoani sub-dialect or local name of Jhangi spoken by a tribe, Nissoana, as of 1919 in northern parts of Jhang District. Another sub-dialect of Jhangi, Kacchī, is named for alluvial desert plain of Kacchi, southwest of Jhang town.Dialect of Jhangochi spoken by the pastoral tribes of the mentioned areas, such as the Kharals, Wattus, Johiyas, who used to rear cattle and sheep in the jungles, before irrigation of the region. It is also called Chenavari (Cināwaṛī or Cinhāwaṛī) due to the name of an area on the right bank of the Chenab River. |
References
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Balochki language and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 3#Balochki language until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 18:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
May be an issue of reading /comprehension is visiable. It is a Language -variety. Read the section Saraiki variety in the source. There are numerous publications some claiming Dialect some as unrelated language. Context is important, Lahnda (Western Punjabi) is a linguistic reality. Western Punjabi link can not be ignored altogather. The term Language variety is a mid view accepted by linguistics across the globe. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 17:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Saraiki is an Indo-Aryan languagematches with the opening sentences of virtually all articles about Indo-Aryan languages (cf. Bengali language, Awadhi language, Marathi language, Sinhala language), including language varieties with a similarly debated status (e.g. Sylheti language). – Austronesier ( talk) 11:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The classification of the Indo-Aryan languages is controversial.Exactly. And this is why using "Indo-Aryan" as a primary label is an elegant and neutral solution, since the Indo-Aryan subgroup itself is uncontroversial. And it is by no means "incorrect". – Austronesier ( talk) 15:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
all sources accept that Lahnda has no local currency hence it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi.Yes, all sources confirm that "Lahnda" is a scholarly construct, but it doesn't appear unsuitable to Masica, Southworth and other scholars who freely use it, and not "Western Punjabi". – Austronesier ( talk) 15:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Primary objective Vs StandardWhy a person will visit Saraiki page? he dont know what is Saraiki ? He opens this page and is told that it is an Indo Aryan Language. He may think It is just like Maldivian language because that page also tell that it is an Indo Aryan Language. That is gross misleading that is because if you visit linguistic scholary data e.g. this one [2] you will find only 46% Lexical similarity of Multani (Southern Lahnda) currently named as Saraiki. Alternatively if you compare with Standard Punjabi its highest 90% even more than other Western Punjabi (Lahnda) varieties Hindko 87% Pothohari 82%. So why give wrong information to him and make it very clear in the Lead that it has very strong relation with if not with Punjabi but atleast western punjabi.
Dialect or Seprate Language or More nuetral Language variety and Concept of long standingRead article it says it was historically considered as dialect of punjabi (you can say LONG STANDING for centuries) and in 1960s (just recentaly= NOT LONG STANDING) claimed and standardized as seprate language and if you research the backdrop it is more political than linguistic (For new seprate province read article Saraikistan). Still if you search over internet then you may come up hundreds of results showing it as dialect of Punjabi. So it is better to be nuetral and use a mid way like language variety.
Lahnda or western punjabiVery first use of title "Lahnda" was done by George A. Grierson as Western punjabi. On each page of his book he used only western punjabi in foot notes detailing Lahnda.Then you see my last two para above which clearly explain why it is more suitable to define it is western punjabi. And please be professional and dont play childish sock allegation game. I am not a cheater. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 04:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ! Two users Snusho and Austronesier has accepted the Variety position proposed by me after a series of argument. HistoryofIran your only position was about use of Lahnda & You proposed to move Lahnda page. Why moving? We use | everywhere in such situations on WP. LingoSouthAsia ( talk) 04:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I have not accepted the changes by @LingoSouthAsia. I don't see the merit of not displaying Lahnda as Lahnda (plus I have pointed out that numerous sources – including the very sources mentioned by @LingoSouthAsia, e.g. Masica (1991) – use "Lahnda" rather than "Western Punjabi". Also, I have pointed out that "Indo-Aryan" is a good primary classifier for Saraiki, following the example of every WP article about Indo-Aryan varieties (and if sources are needed, why not follow a gold standard source such as the Journal of the International Phonetic Association: Saraiki (ISO 639-3:skr) is an Indo-Aryan language widely used in Pakistan and India
[4]).
Deriving tacit agreement from my rejection to engage in an edit war is absurd. Instead, I have invited them to self-revert [5] to follow our soft rules of good practice in a dispute—with known result: continued edit-warring leading to a block.
My first edit ever to this article was when I intervened in the slow edit war between @LingoSouthAsia and @Snusho in December, and restored the status quo ante. Actually, @Snusho already made a slight compromise with this version: [6]
Saraiki ... is an Indo-Aryan language variety of Lahnda group, thus accepting the change from "language" to "language variety".
In my first comment in this talk page, I have basically agreed with this slight change (and only this change), although I have suggested to adjust the wiki-links. – Austronesier ( talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)