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A defense line in Sistan
This source says one of the
Sassanian defense lines was in Sistan, but I couldn't find further information. Another source mentions a defense line "west of what is yoday Afganistan", I don't know if the two refer to the same thing. --Z 15:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 9 January 2019
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Sakastan → Sakastan (Sasanian Province) – Sakastan was also another name for Sistan, and had existed as a region/province (since its invasion by the
Saka in the 2nd-century BC, thus the name Saka(stan)) before the Sasanians, hence I want this moved to avoid confusion. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 21:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Support Reasons given above are legit. Don’t even understand how this move needs a
WP:RM.---Wikaviani (talk)(contribs) 22:02, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:CONCISE, the current name is suitable. Also, the proposed name goes against
WP:PRECISE - the region "Sakastan" existed both before and after the Sasanian conquest, including in
Parthian,
Kushan, and
Hephthalite eras. Do you want to create separate articles for Sakastan in those eras?
Khestwol (
talk) 02:17, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Support Per nom and
WP:RS. Different era's, different entities, with different govenors/vassal rulers;
"It was Mithridates II who attended the problem of Sakastan by commissioning a Parthian notable or general, who did not belong to the Arsacid royal house, to recapture the province. It is the recapture of the province that, for the first time, puts the Parthian family name Suren on the map of Iranian history and invariably links it to Sistan." -- Gazerani, Saghi (2016). The Sistani Cycle of Epics and Iran's National History. BRILL. p. 14
"In the early Sasanian inscriptions the local semi-independent dynasts of Parthian days are mentioned: the kings of Abrenag, Marv, Carmania, Sakastan (they were at the court of Ardashir I), Adiabene, Iberia (at the court of Shapur I) (...) Already under Shapur I the independence of Abrenag and Marv was abolished, Sakastan became a province (shahr) (...) and was given as an appanage to Shapur I's son Narseh (...)" Lukonin, V.G. (1983). Yarshate, Ehsan, ed. The Cambridge History of Iran (Vol. 3 (2)). Cambridge University Press. p. 729
Support.@
Khestwol:Sistan is the historical Sakastan while this one is a Sasanian Province. There are many other similar cases, e.g.
Turan (Sasanian Province) vs.
Turan, Iranian
Khorasan Province vs.
Greater Khorasan. So actually moving this article is necessary. --
Wario-Man (
talk) 08:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose(!vote to be updated pending outcome of discussion below). --
В²C☎ 01:10, 22 January 2019 (UTC) . And what's to happen with
Sakastan? After the proposed move, it will redirect to this (retitled/disambiguated) article. So what's the point? If that's how it is to remain, I oppose per
WP:CONCISE and unnecessary disambiguation. That said, I do see an article for
Sistan. It's conceivable to create a
WP:TWODABS page at
Sakastan with links to this (retitled) article and to
Sistan. But how likely is someone to be searching with "Sakastan" for
Sistan? If the relative likelihood hood is low compared to the likelihood of searching for this article with
Sakastan, as I suspect is this case (no evidence to the contrary), then this article is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for
Sakastan and so
Sakastan should be the title of this article or a
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to it; but I've already covered that latter case... unnecessary disambiguation. I'm willing to change my mind if someone can show that
Sistan is sufficiently likely to be sought by people searching with "Sakastan" that this article is not the primary topic. --
В²C☎ 05:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your points are correct.
Khestwol (
talk) 06:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying, but the plan is that
Sakastan will get redirected to Sistan. Also Sakastan was the name of a region/province c. three centuries before the Sasanians arrived, imagine clicking
Sakastan in a Indo-Scythian/Indo-Parthian/Saka/Parthian/early House of Suren-related article and then get sent to a Sasanian article. Think its safe to say that it would more appropriate to be sent to the Sistan article instead. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 14:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
What is the likelihood that someone searching with “Sakastan” is looking for the article at
Sistan as opposed to this article? In other words, is the primary topic for “Sakastan” the subject of
Sistan? Or the Sasanian Sakastan? —-
В²C☎ 01:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
It is very unlikely that they will be thinking of the Sasanian Sakastan when searching for "Sakastan". Instead, they will simply be looking for the geographic land.
Khestwol (
talk) 07:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Think he was asking me, Khestwol (the user who created this article and actually has knowledge about this region). To answer your question, В²C, the primary topic for “Sakastan” is definitely without any doubt the subject of Sistan. These two sources, for example
[1][2] has a lot of information the events of Sakastan and its appearance as a region before the Sasanians. Sakastan is the ancient name for Sistan, and is often mentioned as so. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 15:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
His question was general, that is why I answered. I think you are enforcing a PRO-PERSIAN POV, attempting to make it appear as if Sakastan did not exist outside of the Sasanian occupation.
Khestwol (
talk) 17:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Ehh...what..? I've literally said the opposite all this time, it was literally the first statement I made. Besides you accusing me of 'pro-Persian pov', this just goes to prove that you aren't eligible to participate in such discussion due to actually not understanding what has been going on all this time, not to mention you don't have any knowledge about this topic which isn't helping either. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 17:51, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Give it a rest... that is precisely the agenda you are trying to push, and evidently not only on this article. Sakastan as a term was used before the Sassanid. Why should the only article on Sakastan be exclusively on the Sassanid period? Sakastan is referenced in different articles e.g. in the Indo-Scythian period - using the term 'Sakastan' - yet if they click on the word, they will be linked to this article which focuses exclusively on Sassanids!
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 18:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Nope, I've said the opposite of that. Instead of attacking me you should go take some English courses, because you actually share the same opinion as me, so drop it already. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 18:08, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Khestwol:, I'm not following. If "It is very unlikely that they will be thinking of the Sasanian Sakastan when searching for 'Sakastan'", then why are you opposed to this proposal? Do you not agree that this article, currently at
Sakastan, is about the Sasanian Sakastan (from the lead: "Sakastan (also known as Sagestān, Sagistan, Seyanish, Segistan, Sistan, and Sijistan) was a Sasanian province...")? If it's very unlikely that people searching with "Sakastan" would be searching for this article, why should it remain at
Sakastan? And if they are more likely to be looking for the geographic land, isn't that the article at
Sistan? So doesn't it make sense to redirect
Sakastan to
Sistan? --
В²C☎ 01:04, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
In my opinion, some more content must be added to the article for example also before and after the Sasanian occupation of Sakastan to make it balanced. Moving is not the solution. The solution I think is to focus this article on the pre-Islamic era and the "Sistan" article on the medieval and modern era. We have done similar setups in other Wikipedia articles e.g. in
Constantinople vs
Istanbul.
Khestwol (
talk) 06:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Sigh..thats supposed to be in the Sistan article. This article is about Sakastan under the Sasanians. You're more than welcome to do some expanding in the Sistan article yourself.
HistoryofIran (
talk) 07:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Sorry but this article is about pre-Islamic Sakastan which existed before the Sassanid occupation too.
Khestwol (
talk) 07:12, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
It's not though, its about Sasanian Sakastan, it literally says so. Also your comparison with Constantinople and Istanbul makes no sense. There's a reason we several Khorasan articles etc. Perhaps start doing something constructive and do some expanding yourself instead of trying to make others do it for you like u also did in the Hepthalite talk page?
HistoryofIran (
talk) 07:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
You want to direct readers clicking on "Sakastan" on a related article to 'Sistan' -- but the '
Sistan' article's section on late antiquity (i.e. "Sakastan") links to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' -- so indirectly the word "Sakastan" on Wikipedia will always be linked in future to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' as it's the only article on Sakastan. Gives inaccurate impression that Sakastan = Sassanid. Also, when this page was first made, it was intended as an article on
'Sakastan', not 'Sassanid Sakastan'. It was you (HistoryofIran) who
reworked the face of the entire article to make it exclusively about Sassanids... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 12:05, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Stop trolling. This is how the Sakastan "article" was before I expanded it
[3] (simply a redirection to Sistan), but nice try. Also, the Sistan article has more than just Sakastan under the Sasanians, such as its 'Early History' section, again, nice try. Sad attempt to manipulate the crowd here. You suddenly turning up here and bending the truth whilst making false accusations towards me is clearly an act of revenge because I reverted your disruptive edits some time ago. Grow up and stop derailling this thread further, thanks. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 16:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your rant accusing me of "trolling", "manipulating the crowd", "turning up here", "bending the truth", "false accusations", "disruptive edits", "derailing the thread" and claiming Khestwol isn't "eligible" to participate is just an attempt to silence contrary opinion and I ignore it. The problem remains: 'Sistan' article's section on late antiquity (i.e. "Sakastan") links to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' -- so indirectly the word "Sakastan" on Wikipedia will always be linked in future to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' as it's the only article on Sakastan. If this is addressed then personally I have no issue with renaming.
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 17:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm just gonna ignore you from now on, you're not coming up with anything constructive. You're just here for retaliation. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 18:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Support. I admit I don't fully understand this topic/topics as well as I normally do when I weigh in on an RM, hence I'm asking my support !vote to be weighted weakly accordingly. However, from what I can tell, one of the uses of the term "Sakastan" is the Sassanian Sakastan, which appears to be the topic of this article, and as near as I can tell it is not the primary topic of this term (though again, I'm not 100% sure of that). In the mean time it appears that the more likely use of Sakastan today is to refer to the topic covered at
Sistan, so it makes sense for
Sakastan to be a
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to
Sistan. I think. I remain open to be persuaded otherwise, but that's where I am right now. --
В²C☎ 18:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand
Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please
join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan articles
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our
project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our
talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on
Phabricator and on
MediaWiki.org.
A defense line in Sistan
This source says one of the
Sassanian defense lines was in Sistan, but I couldn't find further information. Another source mentions a defense line "west of what is yoday Afganistan", I don't know if the two refer to the same thing. --Z 15:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 9 January 2019
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Sakastan → Sakastan (Sasanian Province) – Sakastan was also another name for Sistan, and had existed as a region/province (since its invasion by the
Saka in the 2nd-century BC, thus the name Saka(stan)) before the Sasanians, hence I want this moved to avoid confusion. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 21:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Support Reasons given above are legit. Don’t even understand how this move needs a
WP:RM.---Wikaviani (talk)(contribs) 22:02, 9 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:CONCISE, the current name is suitable. Also, the proposed name goes against
WP:PRECISE - the region "Sakastan" existed both before and after the Sasanian conquest, including in
Parthian,
Kushan, and
Hephthalite eras. Do you want to create separate articles for Sakastan in those eras?
Khestwol (
talk) 02:17, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Support Per nom and
WP:RS. Different era's, different entities, with different govenors/vassal rulers;
"It was Mithridates II who attended the problem of Sakastan by commissioning a Parthian notable or general, who did not belong to the Arsacid royal house, to recapture the province. It is the recapture of the province that, for the first time, puts the Parthian family name Suren on the map of Iranian history and invariably links it to Sistan." -- Gazerani, Saghi (2016). The Sistani Cycle of Epics and Iran's National History. BRILL. p. 14
"In the early Sasanian inscriptions the local semi-independent dynasts of Parthian days are mentioned: the kings of Abrenag, Marv, Carmania, Sakastan (they were at the court of Ardashir I), Adiabene, Iberia (at the court of Shapur I) (...) Already under Shapur I the independence of Abrenag and Marv was abolished, Sakastan became a province (shahr) (...) and was given as an appanage to Shapur I's son Narseh (...)" Lukonin, V.G. (1983). Yarshate, Ehsan, ed. The Cambridge History of Iran (Vol. 3 (2)). Cambridge University Press. p. 729
Support.@
Khestwol:Sistan is the historical Sakastan while this one is a Sasanian Province. There are many other similar cases, e.g.
Turan (Sasanian Province) vs.
Turan, Iranian
Khorasan Province vs.
Greater Khorasan. So actually moving this article is necessary. --
Wario-Man (
talk) 08:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose(!vote to be updated pending outcome of discussion below). --
В²C☎ 01:10, 22 January 2019 (UTC) . And what's to happen with
Sakastan? After the proposed move, it will redirect to this (retitled/disambiguated) article. So what's the point? If that's how it is to remain, I oppose per
WP:CONCISE and unnecessary disambiguation. That said, I do see an article for
Sistan. It's conceivable to create a
WP:TWODABS page at
Sakastan with links to this (retitled) article and to
Sistan. But how likely is someone to be searching with "Sakastan" for
Sistan? If the relative likelihood hood is low compared to the likelihood of searching for this article with
Sakastan, as I suspect is this case (no evidence to the contrary), then this article is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for
Sakastan and so
Sakastan should be the title of this article or a
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to it; but I've already covered that latter case... unnecessary disambiguation. I'm willing to change my mind if someone can show that
Sistan is sufficiently likely to be sought by people searching with "Sakastan" that this article is not the primary topic. --
В²C☎ 05:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your points are correct.
Khestwol (
talk) 06:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying, but the plan is that
Sakastan will get redirected to Sistan. Also Sakastan was the name of a region/province c. three centuries before the Sasanians arrived, imagine clicking
Sakastan in a Indo-Scythian/Indo-Parthian/Saka/Parthian/early House of Suren-related article and then get sent to a Sasanian article. Think its safe to say that it would more appropriate to be sent to the Sistan article instead. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 14:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)reply
What is the likelihood that someone searching with “Sakastan” is looking for the article at
Sistan as opposed to this article? In other words, is the primary topic for “Sakastan” the subject of
Sistan? Or the Sasanian Sakastan? —-
В²C☎ 01:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
It is very unlikely that they will be thinking of the Sasanian Sakastan when searching for "Sakastan". Instead, they will simply be looking for the geographic land.
Khestwol (
talk) 07:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Think he was asking me, Khestwol (the user who created this article and actually has knowledge about this region). To answer your question, В²C, the primary topic for “Sakastan” is definitely without any doubt the subject of Sistan. These two sources, for example
[1][2] has a lot of information the events of Sakastan and its appearance as a region before the Sasanians. Sakastan is the ancient name for Sistan, and is often mentioned as so. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 15:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
His question was general, that is why I answered. I think you are enforcing a PRO-PERSIAN POV, attempting to make it appear as if Sakastan did not exist outside of the Sasanian occupation.
Khestwol (
talk) 17:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Ehh...what..? I've literally said the opposite all this time, it was literally the first statement I made. Besides you accusing me of 'pro-Persian pov', this just goes to prove that you aren't eligible to participate in such discussion due to actually not understanding what has been going on all this time, not to mention you don't have any knowledge about this topic which isn't helping either. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 17:51, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Give it a rest... that is precisely the agenda you are trying to push, and evidently not only on this article. Sakastan as a term was used before the Sassanid. Why should the only article on Sakastan be exclusively on the Sassanid period? Sakastan is referenced in different articles e.g. in the Indo-Scythian period - using the term 'Sakastan' - yet if they click on the word, they will be linked to this article which focuses exclusively on Sassanids!
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 18:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Nope, I've said the opposite of that. Instead of attacking me you should go take some English courses, because you actually share the same opinion as me, so drop it already. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 18:08, 21 January 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Khestwol:, I'm not following. If "It is very unlikely that they will be thinking of the Sasanian Sakastan when searching for 'Sakastan'", then why are you opposed to this proposal? Do you not agree that this article, currently at
Sakastan, is about the Sasanian Sakastan (from the lead: "Sakastan (also known as Sagestān, Sagistan, Seyanish, Segistan, Sistan, and Sijistan) was a Sasanian province...")? If it's very unlikely that people searching with "Sakastan" would be searching for this article, why should it remain at
Sakastan? And if they are more likely to be looking for the geographic land, isn't that the article at
Sistan? So doesn't it make sense to redirect
Sakastan to
Sistan? --
В²C☎ 01:04, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
In my opinion, some more content must be added to the article for example also before and after the Sasanian occupation of Sakastan to make it balanced. Moving is not the solution. The solution I think is to focus this article on the pre-Islamic era and the "Sistan" article on the medieval and modern era. We have done similar setups in other Wikipedia articles e.g. in
Constantinople vs
Istanbul.
Khestwol (
talk) 06:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Sigh..thats supposed to be in the Sistan article. This article is about Sakastan under the Sasanians. You're more than welcome to do some expanding in the Sistan article yourself.
HistoryofIran (
talk) 07:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Sorry but this article is about pre-Islamic Sakastan which existed before the Sassanid occupation too.
Khestwol (
talk) 07:12, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
It's not though, its about Sasanian Sakastan, it literally says so. Also your comparison with Constantinople and Istanbul makes no sense. There's a reason we several Khorasan articles etc. Perhaps start doing something constructive and do some expanding yourself instead of trying to make others do it for you like u also did in the Hepthalite talk page?
HistoryofIran (
talk) 07:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
You want to direct readers clicking on "Sakastan" on a related article to 'Sistan' -- but the '
Sistan' article's section on late antiquity (i.e. "Sakastan") links to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' -- so indirectly the word "Sakastan" on Wikipedia will always be linked in future to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' as it's the only article on Sakastan. Gives inaccurate impression that Sakastan = Sassanid. Also, when this page was first made, it was intended as an article on
'Sakastan', not 'Sassanid Sakastan'. It was you (HistoryofIran) who
reworked the face of the entire article to make it exclusively about Sassanids... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 12:05, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Stop trolling. This is how the Sakastan "article" was before I expanded it
[3] (simply a redirection to Sistan), but nice try. Also, the Sistan article has more than just Sakastan under the Sasanians, such as its 'Early History' section, again, nice try. Sad attempt to manipulate the crowd here. You suddenly turning up here and bending the truth whilst making false accusations towards me is clearly an act of revenge because I reverted your disruptive edits some time ago. Grow up and stop derailling this thread further, thanks. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 16:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Your rant accusing me of "trolling", "manipulating the crowd", "turning up here", "bending the truth", "false accusations", "disruptive edits", "derailing the thread" and claiming Khestwol isn't "eligible" to participate is just an attempt to silence contrary opinion and I ignore it. The problem remains: 'Sistan' article's section on late antiquity (i.e. "Sakastan") links to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' -- so indirectly the word "Sakastan" on Wikipedia will always be linked in future to 'Sakastan-Sassanian province' as it's the only article on Sakastan. If this is addressed then personally I have no issue with renaming.
217.35.82.33 (
talk) 17:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm just gonna ignore you from now on, you're not coming up with anything constructive. You're just here for retaliation. --
HistoryofIran (
talk) 18:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Weak Support. I admit I don't fully understand this topic/topics as well as I normally do when I weigh in on an RM, hence I'm asking my support !vote to be weighted weakly accordingly. However, from what I can tell, one of the uses of the term "Sakastan" is the Sassanian Sakastan, which appears to be the topic of this article, and as near as I can tell it is not the primary topic of this term (though again, I'm not 100% sure of that). In the mean time it appears that the more likely use of Sakastan today is to refer to the topic covered at
Sistan, so it makes sense for
Sakastan to be a
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to
Sistan. I think. I remain open to be persuaded otherwise, but that's where I am right now. --
В²C☎ 18:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.