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I just noticed this edit summary of yours, Sir Gawain McGarson:
"reverting numerous changes by anon. IP number clearly aimed at demoting caveat material - our pederast friends are at it again"
Really? And how did you come to the conclusion? I was that IP editor, editing without bothering to log in as I was disillusioned with Wikipedia at that time (still am). I find being characterized as a pederast for daring to make the article more NPOV more than a little insulting. The article was inappropriately giving Wikipedia's voice to the views of one modern historian - David Leitao, making it seem like his views were the most widely accepted and that the ancient sources and other modern historians were all simply mistaken. And no, the fact that this opinion is only Leitao's was not stipulated by the one who originally added them User:McOoee. McOoee's changes seem to be aimed at reducing the overall homosexual nature of the band (probably from personal beliefs), even if it meant characterizing the original source as a "questionable authority".
I didn't even remove Leitao's views, I merely specifically stated that it was his opinion and his opinion alone, not Wikipedia's and not that of the other sources and accordingly reduced its prominence in the lead. Furthermore, it was not me who characterizes the relationships between the soldiers as pederasty. Homosexual yes, pederastic only in the sense that the pairings were of older and younger men. The parabátai were most assuredly young men, not children, men old enough to fight and die in wars, so the alleged connection to boy love (which I personally find disgusting) is nonsensical as well.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 07:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, first my comment was aimed at an IP number whose edit looked highly suspicious. I would expect rough treatment if I edited an article as an IP number, demoting important material on a subject as problematic as pederasty. The ancient account doesn't use a term equivalent to 'homosexualityy'. That's a modern term. Emphasizing the ancient account is emphasizing pederasty and that has pedophile connotations. The article was short on scholarly sources when I found it. It was Original Research. You demoted Leitao's views and removed them from the caption. I accept your word that your edit was not tendentious. However Leitao is a modern scholar who has studied the primary sources and readers are entitled to know his findings at the outset. Your source is Plutarch. Plutarch distances himself from his own account and readers should know that his account was in fact a minority view. I also am trying to counter POV. I'm restoring my edit as yours is based on OR and minimizes the role of research. Oh and I should add that I was McOoee.
Just noticed your additional comment. Yes by all means expand the article. But don't demote scholarly literature that specifically addresses the credibility of the ancient account. Thanks. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 07:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Reporting the account as is? The article quoted Plutarch out of context. That is not reporting as is. As I said, by all means expand things. But don't cite any primary source without also citing a modern scholar's interpretation of that source (I don't want your interpretation, even though I respect your right to a personal opinion) and don't go beyond the subject matter. This is about the Sacred Band, not about homosexuality in the ancient Greek miitary, nor is it a chance for contributors to indulge in wishful thinking. There is in fact almost nothing about the Sacred Band in ancient literature, and even less about its sexual orientation. However, you may find numerous references to the Band in all kinds of literature. Happy reading! Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 09:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Most scholars refer to the Sacred Band in relation to other issues. Leitao is interested only in the Band and in the credibility of the ancient account. No point arguing. Come up with the sources. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
My expectation is that Leitao's findings will have a full and prominent place in this article .i.e. in the intro. Plutarch's account needs to be interpreted in the light of those findings. The other sources you mention are not specifically concerned with the Theban Sacred Band, but refer to it as only one consideration among many in addressing broader issues. I won't stop you citing them. However, I will of course revise your edit if I think you are aiming to water down Leitao's findings or if you are trying to bury them under a weight of irrelevant information. My advice is don't try to present the band as an historical fact (you are on weak ground there) but rather try to develop its significance as a cultural icon. We should be on the same wavelength then. Plutarch himself was responding to its iconic significance. Hopefully, I'll be pleasantly surprised by your edits, but I've seen too much nonsense in articles like this to expect much at the moment. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 06:22, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, your edit is certainly better than your lead-up suggested it would be. At least now we can all see your sources and know exactly where you are coming from. As for confusing myself, no, just not expressing myself carefully enough. Just glancing at your comments, I'm wondering for instance what Herodotus and Thucydides have to say about the Sacred Band? There are other issues we can address later. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 11:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, Thucydides and Herodotus are cited as exemplars of a generic argument (p 156) and they are also in the notes: Herodotus (n. 50, referring to a citation by Dover) and Thucyd. (n. 5, 36, 56), which are of marginal significance. It would be ungracious of me not to acknowledge the effort you have put into this article. Your editing as an IP number set alarm bells ringing, and mysterious comments such as This article is first and foremost about Plutarch's account, any interpretations by modern historians are secondary, didn't help (mysterious because it doesn't hint at the competent work that was to follow). I'll be interested to see how you fit Leitao into it. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Pleased to hear that you enjoy it. I see from your contributions that you are basically a science man. I'm basically a literature man and I too am not in familiar territory here. However, we'll make do since nobody else has bothered to fix this mess up for years. Something I noticed in your source Rockwell: he supports Leitao's view. I quote – "From the way Plutarch introduces this material it is clear that the notion of the Theban Sacred Band as a military unit composed of paired lovers was a variant tradition, opposed probably to a dominant tradition that simply related the unit's elite status and military prowess. His use of [Greek: enioi de phasin] is a way for Plutarch to distance himself from the sensitive issue of male homosexuality." p.23-24
I found this also, relating Plutarch's account to Plato's Symposium, but by a different author, A Georgiadou – Plutarch "...sees this love of the [Greek: erastai] and [Greek:eromenoi] of the Sacred Band through Platonist eyes and assumes that it was so called because of Plato's description of the lover as 'divine friend'. He suggests thereby that their love did not seek physical expression but aimed at the goal of the beloved object. (A. Georgiadou, Plutarch's Pelopidas: A Historical and Philological Commentary, Stuttgart 1997, 155-56)
Checking out my OCD: its article on the Sacred Band notes that the Band's military significance is hard to assess, its role at Leuctra is controversial, and the Band's burial under the Lion Monument is disputed. The sources for the article are J. de Voto, Ancient World 1992, and J. Buckler, Theban Hegemony 1980.
So, in summary of my prelimnary researches, Leitao's position cannot be dismissed as lightly as you seem to think. I'd like to see these positions covered in the article. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 16:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised by your response to the Rockwell quote I just gave you. He clearly recognizes two traditions and he says the erotic tradition was not the dominant one. That's also Leito's position. Rockwell also says on page 19 that the band "...supposedly was a unit composed of 150 pairs of men, each consisting of a lover and a beloved." That's distancing language. Rockwell goes on to add that he thinks members of the band may have been groomed from among Theban youth by pederastic relationships. But he does not think the band was structured as a band of lovers. I certainly expect you to moderate your opening to the article, seeing that we have two very recent sources aligning themselves with the dominant tradition. In other words, what this article needs is some distancing language of its own. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Pederasty was part of the social background in the fourth century. All Greek units were made up of pederasts. The question is whether the Sacred Band was organized along erotic lines, in couples. According to the minority tradition, they were. According to the dominant tradition they weren't (that doesn't deny the sexual attitudes among soldiers at the time, or the chance of informal sexual relations among them). I think that's where you are getting the wrong angle on things. I also think you are not distinguishing between pederasty and homosexuality. At that time, sexual relationships were supposed to be unequal, one partner being dominant. So pederasty was considered OK since it was OK for a man to dominate a youth. But homosexuality was frowned on because it put one man in an inferior position. That's why Ferrill says "Homosexuality was rife in ancient times, but it was as controversial in antiquity as it is today", and that's how he explains Xenophon's disapproval. Likewise Rockwell talks about Plutarch's sensitivity to homosexuality. That's why Rockwell can talk about youths being recruited by erotic relationships, and also how these could continue as homosexual relationship, but he's not arguing that the band was structured along erotic lines, in couples. Since you offered some personal opinions, I'll offer mine. A military unit made of lovers would be like a military unit made of married couples. "Did you put out the garbage?" "You're getting more and more like your mother every day." "You leave my mother out of this!" It's just ridiculous. The minority tradition was championed by moral philosophers who were not concerned much with practical realities. I might add, ancient Greece is not a proper role model for modern homosexuals, but the Sacred Band has become a gay icon and it's difficult to argue about these these things objectively. Anyway, that's my POV. The fact is there are two traditions, one that mentions the erotic nature of the band, and one that doesn't. That needs to be stipulated at the outset. Similarly controversy about the band's military significance should also be stated at the outset. Actually, I don't think we are far off consensus. The article is already much better than it was. It is no longer Plutarch reconstituted for promotional purposes. But, I think the icon thing is causing you to favour some interpretations rather than others. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 08:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm. The significance of the band and the reliability of the sources are disputed in the scholarly literature. That's fact. This article still ignores those doubts. Where is there a scholarly debate in this article? The modern scholarship cited here gave me hopes that you were attempting a critique of a legend. But the citations turn out to be a dummy, put up for show, while you echo a selection of primary sources. Or are you getting around to a fuller development? Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 13:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not asking for your private critique of the legend but the critique given by scholars. I've already identified some for you.
I haven't even scratched the surface. I didn't search for these sources; they are the result of some cursory reading on my part. Plutarch is not an historian but a moral philosopher and raconteur. Leitao identifies 11 authors, most of them who mention the Band very briefly in passing. A well researched article should name and summarize the sources, and the way that modern, especially recent scholars interpret their significance. This article so far is a naive re-warming of some primary sources, as if they were historical fact.
How many times now have you flashed WP policies and guidelines at me? You're like a police car. Anything that isn't in the Book of Common Sense is breakfast for lawyers. My point is, you are writing the article back-to-front. You were right when you said primary sources come first; they come first chronologically. But secondary sources come first methodologically because they provide a context for interpreting the ancient record. You've started this article with a clear idea of what you think the primary sources are saying, and now you are interpreting and selecting secondary sources to fit your interpretation. If you were writing about starfish I wouldn't care about priorities. But this is a key article in a web of articles concerning pederasty. It should be above suspicion. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 10:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh and I should add that many historians who cover the period never even mention the Sacred Band, despite its colorful aspects. That silence isn't carelessness. It's a judgement. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 10:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Not all historians consider The Sacred Band a decisive influence on the period's history i.e. the primary sources are not as reliable as you would like them to be. Yes, I think we've both said enough here for the moment. Re the personal stuff, I don't belong to any project but my own, I make no apologies for that. Yes, I'm on a crusade against propaganda. No, Timocreon is not an example of bad editing. I began with the scholarship and then cited the verses and primary sources that were cited by the scholars. I've also written articles about pederastic poets such as Theognis of Megara and Ibycus. Odd that you over-looked those. But you do tend to overlook things you don't want to see. I will be reworking your edit, if necessary, to ensure an objective article on the Sacred Band of Thebes. My hope is, it won't be necessary. There are other things I'd rather be doing. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 13:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I hope you mean pissed off. I'm used to pissing people off, but driving them to drink is a new experience for me. The best thing about your edit is the online citations so that people can check out your interpretations for themselves. For example have a look at your source, The Defense of Attica by Mark H. Munn. He discusses his sources in the section Sources and limits them to Xenophon and Diodorus, none of whom refers to a band of lovers (though Xenophon disparages the sexual mores of Theban soldiers generally). So of course Munn himself says hardly anything at all about the band, nothing about its sexuality. He says the Sacred Band...
"...was a product of needs faced by the Thebans at the outset of the Boiotian War when the crack mercenary force led by Chabrias provided the same model of discipline and high moral for the Athenians." (p. 190)
His interpretation here belongs within the tradition of an elite force, without mention of any sexual organization. So long as you continue to ignore the two traditions, the reader of your article will assume from your intro that you and your sources are always referring to a band of lovers. However, if you read Leitao more carefully, you'll see there is still plenty of room for consensus between us. Leitao is not a homophobic propagandist. He talks about the pederastic mores of the time and adds:
"Our sources for the Sacred band describe a phenomenon quite different from these ordinary pederastic intrusions on army life: 1) the Theban Sacred Band seems to have been composed exclusively of pairs of lovers and beloveds, and 2) these pairs were presumably involved in an active and ongoing relationship of an intense emotional, if not sexual nature. A Sacred Band so constituted would have been radical indeed." (p. 145)
I suggest again that you consult your source Rockwell, whose position on 2 traditions coincides with Leitao. You keep saying Leitao is the only one who takes that position. Both those authors allow for informal sexual relations within the Sacred Band. I've said twice already that the OCD, in a very short article, refers to disputes and controversies among scholars. I guess I'll have to get hold of its cited sources because, reading your article, I get no sense of any divergence at all, except a few comments banished to the end section, like an afterthought that the reader need not take too seriously.
You ask me to look in the mirror. That's impossible. I am the mirror. If people give me crap, crap is what they get back, and articles like this are full of it. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Your favourite colour? Don't you remember what it is? But speaking of psychic powers: I can't find any mention of a band of lovers in Central Greece and the Politics of Power in 4th century BC (John Buckler and Hans Beck) nor in Philip II and the Sacred War (John Buckler). That's three cited books I've checked so far and not one supports the tradition of the band of lovers that you so confidently announce in the intro. Add Leitao and Rockwell's scepticism to that silence and there is a good case for mentioning two traditions in the intro, just to cover all bases. However, I must admit that your articles is looking better as it grows. I'll be generous and not claim any credit for that. Regarding your earlier statement about earning respect – it's an encyclopaedia anyone can edit, not a club. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Disruptive? Good luck with that one! Silly? Do my arguments really seem that way to you? Maybe I haven't explained myself clearly enough. Try again. Leitao says on p.143 that scholars have "tended" to take the lovers tradition at face value. He cites some of these scholars in footnote 1 (Dover 1965, Buffiere 1980, Sergant 1986, De Voto 1992, Ogden 1996). He cites only one scholar as sceptical (Buck 1994). Add to the sceptical list very recent works by Leitao himself and Rockwell. Conclusion: Yes, most scholars favour the lovers tradition, but not all. The word "tended" does not support the notion that the sceptical group is insignificant . Yet your intro to the article doesn't even acknowledge that group and you are referencing some works that do not even mention the lovers tradition. Do you have psychic powers? Do you know which tradition underlies those books, even when it is unstated? The intro must allow for that difference of opinion among scholars, and the article must cover the problematic nature of the sources. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 08:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
The current lede state that the unit was "pederastic". Having browsed through the above discussion, I have understood exactly what is meant by this. The word "pederastic" links to the article Pederasty in ancient Greece, again explaining it. However, words change with time, and the current understanding of the term pederastry is more along the line of (pardon my French) "buggering of little boys", and is not what is meant by the word in this article. I suggest spending a word of two explaining that we are not dealing with the modern interpretation here. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 07:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm using sockpuppets? I strongly urge you to make an official complaint about me if there is any grain of truth in what you say. Either that or stop believing everything you are told by electronic signals who have somehow earned your respect. Re terminology in the intro, pairs of male lovers would be good enough at that point in the article. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
And some French Fries to go with that please, no salt; a coffee too! I'll wait at the table by the window. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 09:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
This "controversy" section should be removed and a simple paragraph inserted into the above noting that a recent publication, unsupported by the greater academic community, questioned their existence. That's it. We don't need to read his entire argument; it's irrelevant.
Wikipedia topics growing in size used to be a good thing. Now it seems like every single historical page has become a giant tug-of-war between nationalists, political extremists, religious zealots, and POV pushing douchebags of all flavors. None of the self-serving junk they insert can be deleted because draconian edit policies and "good faith" protect all but the most ludicrous additions from removal.
This is supposed to be an informative, encyclopedic article - it should not have ten times as much space devoted to "controversy" as it does to famous quotes from ancient historical sources.
From a quick glance at the talk page, it looks like this all goes back to one loser who had nothing better to do that day than twist everything here into his preferred author's perspective. Subsequent attempts to re-balance the page turned into an edit war, which was settled by giving this asswipe his own section (and essentially letting him have the last word in the article).
Hooray for wikipedia....
/endrant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.92.45.226 ( talk) 16:33, 18 September 2012
I've removed all but one of the dab links in the article and also removed the dablinks template. The remaining dab link is redirectd from medized to the "dab" page medism. It's not actually a proper dab page though -- it contains a short article about the relevant medism, and a two sentence definition of an irrelevant medism. I will tag the medism page for cleanup. In the meantime, since there isn't an article page for the relevant medism and the dab page does contain relevant information, I am leaving in the link to the dab page. Susfele ( talk) 04:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The lead is 70 words compared to article c. 6000. Should be around 1/25 of the whole article. Soerfm ( talk) 13:34, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, since wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. Andrew🐉( talk) 12:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
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I just noticed this edit summary of yours, Sir Gawain McGarson:
"reverting numerous changes by anon. IP number clearly aimed at demoting caveat material - our pederast friends are at it again"
Really? And how did you come to the conclusion? I was that IP editor, editing without bothering to log in as I was disillusioned with Wikipedia at that time (still am). I find being characterized as a pederast for daring to make the article more NPOV more than a little insulting. The article was inappropriately giving Wikipedia's voice to the views of one modern historian - David Leitao, making it seem like his views were the most widely accepted and that the ancient sources and other modern historians were all simply mistaken. And no, the fact that this opinion is only Leitao's was not stipulated by the one who originally added them User:McOoee. McOoee's changes seem to be aimed at reducing the overall homosexual nature of the band (probably from personal beliefs), even if it meant characterizing the original source as a "questionable authority".
I didn't even remove Leitao's views, I merely specifically stated that it was his opinion and his opinion alone, not Wikipedia's and not that of the other sources and accordingly reduced its prominence in the lead. Furthermore, it was not me who characterizes the relationships between the soldiers as pederasty. Homosexual yes, pederastic only in the sense that the pairings were of older and younger men. The parabátai were most assuredly young men, not children, men old enough to fight and die in wars, so the alleged connection to boy love (which I personally find disgusting) is nonsensical as well.-- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 07:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, first my comment was aimed at an IP number whose edit looked highly suspicious. I would expect rough treatment if I edited an article as an IP number, demoting important material on a subject as problematic as pederasty. The ancient account doesn't use a term equivalent to 'homosexualityy'. That's a modern term. Emphasizing the ancient account is emphasizing pederasty and that has pedophile connotations. The article was short on scholarly sources when I found it. It was Original Research. You demoted Leitao's views and removed them from the caption. I accept your word that your edit was not tendentious. However Leitao is a modern scholar who has studied the primary sources and readers are entitled to know his findings at the outset. Your source is Plutarch. Plutarch distances himself from his own account and readers should know that his account was in fact a minority view. I also am trying to counter POV. I'm restoring my edit as yours is based on OR and minimizes the role of research. Oh and I should add that I was McOoee.
Just noticed your additional comment. Yes by all means expand the article. But don't demote scholarly literature that specifically addresses the credibility of the ancient account. Thanks. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 07:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Reporting the account as is? The article quoted Plutarch out of context. That is not reporting as is. As I said, by all means expand things. But don't cite any primary source without also citing a modern scholar's interpretation of that source (I don't want your interpretation, even though I respect your right to a personal opinion) and don't go beyond the subject matter. This is about the Sacred Band, not about homosexuality in the ancient Greek miitary, nor is it a chance for contributors to indulge in wishful thinking. There is in fact almost nothing about the Sacred Band in ancient literature, and even less about its sexual orientation. However, you may find numerous references to the Band in all kinds of literature. Happy reading! Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 09:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Most scholars refer to the Sacred Band in relation to other issues. Leitao is interested only in the Band and in the credibility of the ancient account. No point arguing. Come up with the sources. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
My expectation is that Leitao's findings will have a full and prominent place in this article .i.e. in the intro. Plutarch's account needs to be interpreted in the light of those findings. The other sources you mention are not specifically concerned with the Theban Sacred Band, but refer to it as only one consideration among many in addressing broader issues. I won't stop you citing them. However, I will of course revise your edit if I think you are aiming to water down Leitao's findings or if you are trying to bury them under a weight of irrelevant information. My advice is don't try to present the band as an historical fact (you are on weak ground there) but rather try to develop its significance as a cultural icon. We should be on the same wavelength then. Plutarch himself was responding to its iconic significance. Hopefully, I'll be pleasantly surprised by your edits, but I've seen too much nonsense in articles like this to expect much at the moment. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 06:22, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, your edit is certainly better than your lead-up suggested it would be. At least now we can all see your sources and know exactly where you are coming from. As for confusing myself, no, just not expressing myself carefully enough. Just glancing at your comments, I'm wondering for instance what Herodotus and Thucydides have to say about the Sacred Band? There are other issues we can address later. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 11:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, Thucydides and Herodotus are cited as exemplars of a generic argument (p 156) and they are also in the notes: Herodotus (n. 50, referring to a citation by Dover) and Thucyd. (n. 5, 36, 56), which are of marginal significance. It would be ungracious of me not to acknowledge the effort you have put into this article. Your editing as an IP number set alarm bells ringing, and mysterious comments such as This article is first and foremost about Plutarch's account, any interpretations by modern historians are secondary, didn't help (mysterious because it doesn't hint at the competent work that was to follow). I'll be interested to see how you fit Leitao into it. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Pleased to hear that you enjoy it. I see from your contributions that you are basically a science man. I'm basically a literature man and I too am not in familiar territory here. However, we'll make do since nobody else has bothered to fix this mess up for years. Something I noticed in your source Rockwell: he supports Leitao's view. I quote – "From the way Plutarch introduces this material it is clear that the notion of the Theban Sacred Band as a military unit composed of paired lovers was a variant tradition, opposed probably to a dominant tradition that simply related the unit's elite status and military prowess. His use of [Greek: enioi de phasin] is a way for Plutarch to distance himself from the sensitive issue of male homosexuality." p.23-24
I found this also, relating Plutarch's account to Plato's Symposium, but by a different author, A Georgiadou – Plutarch "...sees this love of the [Greek: erastai] and [Greek:eromenoi] of the Sacred Band through Platonist eyes and assumes that it was so called because of Plato's description of the lover as 'divine friend'. He suggests thereby that their love did not seek physical expression but aimed at the goal of the beloved object. (A. Georgiadou, Plutarch's Pelopidas: A Historical and Philological Commentary, Stuttgart 1997, 155-56)
Checking out my OCD: its article on the Sacred Band notes that the Band's military significance is hard to assess, its role at Leuctra is controversial, and the Band's burial under the Lion Monument is disputed. The sources for the article are J. de Voto, Ancient World 1992, and J. Buckler, Theban Hegemony 1980.
So, in summary of my prelimnary researches, Leitao's position cannot be dismissed as lightly as you seem to think. I'd like to see these positions covered in the article. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 16:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised by your response to the Rockwell quote I just gave you. He clearly recognizes two traditions and he says the erotic tradition was not the dominant one. That's also Leito's position. Rockwell also says on page 19 that the band "...supposedly was a unit composed of 150 pairs of men, each consisting of a lover and a beloved." That's distancing language. Rockwell goes on to add that he thinks members of the band may have been groomed from among Theban youth by pederastic relationships. But he does not think the band was structured as a band of lovers. I certainly expect you to moderate your opening to the article, seeing that we have two very recent sources aligning themselves with the dominant tradition. In other words, what this article needs is some distancing language of its own. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Pederasty was part of the social background in the fourth century. All Greek units were made up of pederasts. The question is whether the Sacred Band was organized along erotic lines, in couples. According to the minority tradition, they were. According to the dominant tradition they weren't (that doesn't deny the sexual attitudes among soldiers at the time, or the chance of informal sexual relations among them). I think that's where you are getting the wrong angle on things. I also think you are not distinguishing between pederasty and homosexuality. At that time, sexual relationships were supposed to be unequal, one partner being dominant. So pederasty was considered OK since it was OK for a man to dominate a youth. But homosexuality was frowned on because it put one man in an inferior position. That's why Ferrill says "Homosexuality was rife in ancient times, but it was as controversial in antiquity as it is today", and that's how he explains Xenophon's disapproval. Likewise Rockwell talks about Plutarch's sensitivity to homosexuality. That's why Rockwell can talk about youths being recruited by erotic relationships, and also how these could continue as homosexual relationship, but he's not arguing that the band was structured along erotic lines, in couples. Since you offered some personal opinions, I'll offer mine. A military unit made of lovers would be like a military unit made of married couples. "Did you put out the garbage?" "You're getting more and more like your mother every day." "You leave my mother out of this!" It's just ridiculous. The minority tradition was championed by moral philosophers who were not concerned much with practical realities. I might add, ancient Greece is not a proper role model for modern homosexuals, but the Sacred Band has become a gay icon and it's difficult to argue about these these things objectively. Anyway, that's my POV. The fact is there are two traditions, one that mentions the erotic nature of the band, and one that doesn't. That needs to be stipulated at the outset. Similarly controversy about the band's military significance should also be stated at the outset. Actually, I don't think we are far off consensus. The article is already much better than it was. It is no longer Plutarch reconstituted for promotional purposes. But, I think the icon thing is causing you to favour some interpretations rather than others. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 08:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm. The significance of the band and the reliability of the sources are disputed in the scholarly literature. That's fact. This article still ignores those doubts. Where is there a scholarly debate in this article? The modern scholarship cited here gave me hopes that you were attempting a critique of a legend. But the citations turn out to be a dummy, put up for show, while you echo a selection of primary sources. Or are you getting around to a fuller development? Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 13:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not asking for your private critique of the legend but the critique given by scholars. I've already identified some for you.
I haven't even scratched the surface. I didn't search for these sources; they are the result of some cursory reading on my part. Plutarch is not an historian but a moral philosopher and raconteur. Leitao identifies 11 authors, most of them who mention the Band very briefly in passing. A well researched article should name and summarize the sources, and the way that modern, especially recent scholars interpret their significance. This article so far is a naive re-warming of some primary sources, as if they were historical fact.
How many times now have you flashed WP policies and guidelines at me? You're like a police car. Anything that isn't in the Book of Common Sense is breakfast for lawyers. My point is, you are writing the article back-to-front. You were right when you said primary sources come first; they come first chronologically. But secondary sources come first methodologically because they provide a context for interpreting the ancient record. You've started this article with a clear idea of what you think the primary sources are saying, and now you are interpreting and selecting secondary sources to fit your interpretation. If you were writing about starfish I wouldn't care about priorities. But this is a key article in a web of articles concerning pederasty. It should be above suspicion. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 10:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh and I should add that many historians who cover the period never even mention the Sacred Band, despite its colorful aspects. That silence isn't carelessness. It's a judgement. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 10:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Not all historians consider The Sacred Band a decisive influence on the period's history i.e. the primary sources are not as reliable as you would like them to be. Yes, I think we've both said enough here for the moment. Re the personal stuff, I don't belong to any project but my own, I make no apologies for that. Yes, I'm on a crusade against propaganda. No, Timocreon is not an example of bad editing. I began with the scholarship and then cited the verses and primary sources that were cited by the scholars. I've also written articles about pederastic poets such as Theognis of Megara and Ibycus. Odd that you over-looked those. But you do tend to overlook things you don't want to see. I will be reworking your edit, if necessary, to ensure an objective article on the Sacred Band of Thebes. My hope is, it won't be necessary. There are other things I'd rather be doing. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 13:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I hope you mean pissed off. I'm used to pissing people off, but driving them to drink is a new experience for me. The best thing about your edit is the online citations so that people can check out your interpretations for themselves. For example have a look at your source, The Defense of Attica by Mark H. Munn. He discusses his sources in the section Sources and limits them to Xenophon and Diodorus, none of whom refers to a band of lovers (though Xenophon disparages the sexual mores of Theban soldiers generally). So of course Munn himself says hardly anything at all about the band, nothing about its sexuality. He says the Sacred Band...
"...was a product of needs faced by the Thebans at the outset of the Boiotian War when the crack mercenary force led by Chabrias provided the same model of discipline and high moral for the Athenians." (p. 190)
His interpretation here belongs within the tradition of an elite force, without mention of any sexual organization. So long as you continue to ignore the two traditions, the reader of your article will assume from your intro that you and your sources are always referring to a band of lovers. However, if you read Leitao more carefully, you'll see there is still plenty of room for consensus between us. Leitao is not a homophobic propagandist. He talks about the pederastic mores of the time and adds:
"Our sources for the Sacred band describe a phenomenon quite different from these ordinary pederastic intrusions on army life: 1) the Theban Sacred Band seems to have been composed exclusively of pairs of lovers and beloveds, and 2) these pairs were presumably involved in an active and ongoing relationship of an intense emotional, if not sexual nature. A Sacred Band so constituted would have been radical indeed." (p. 145)
I suggest again that you consult your source Rockwell, whose position on 2 traditions coincides with Leitao. You keep saying Leitao is the only one who takes that position. Both those authors allow for informal sexual relations within the Sacred Band. I've said twice already that the OCD, in a very short article, refers to disputes and controversies among scholars. I guess I'll have to get hold of its cited sources because, reading your article, I get no sense of any divergence at all, except a few comments banished to the end section, like an afterthought that the reader need not take too seriously.
You ask me to look in the mirror. That's impossible. I am the mirror. If people give me crap, crap is what they get back, and articles like this are full of it. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Your favourite colour? Don't you remember what it is? But speaking of psychic powers: I can't find any mention of a band of lovers in Central Greece and the Politics of Power in 4th century BC (John Buckler and Hans Beck) nor in Philip II and the Sacred War (John Buckler). That's three cited books I've checked so far and not one supports the tradition of the band of lovers that you so confidently announce in the intro. Add Leitao and Rockwell's scepticism to that silence and there is a good case for mentioning two traditions in the intro, just to cover all bases. However, I must admit that your articles is looking better as it grows. I'll be generous and not claim any credit for that. Regarding your earlier statement about earning respect – it's an encyclopaedia anyone can edit, not a club. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 12:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Disruptive? Good luck with that one! Silly? Do my arguments really seem that way to you? Maybe I haven't explained myself clearly enough. Try again. Leitao says on p.143 that scholars have "tended" to take the lovers tradition at face value. He cites some of these scholars in footnote 1 (Dover 1965, Buffiere 1980, Sergant 1986, De Voto 1992, Ogden 1996). He cites only one scholar as sceptical (Buck 1994). Add to the sceptical list very recent works by Leitao himself and Rockwell. Conclusion: Yes, most scholars favour the lovers tradition, but not all. The word "tended" does not support the notion that the sceptical group is insignificant . Yet your intro to the article doesn't even acknowledge that group and you are referencing some works that do not even mention the lovers tradition. Do you have psychic powers? Do you know which tradition underlies those books, even when it is unstated? The intro must allow for that difference of opinion among scholars, and the article must cover the problematic nature of the sources. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 08:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
The current lede state that the unit was "pederastic". Having browsed through the above discussion, I have understood exactly what is meant by this. The word "pederastic" links to the article Pederasty in ancient Greece, again explaining it. However, words change with time, and the current understanding of the term pederastry is more along the line of (pardon my French) "buggering of little boys", and is not what is meant by the word in this article. I suggest spending a word of two explaining that we are not dealing with the modern interpretation here. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 07:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm using sockpuppets? I strongly urge you to make an official complaint about me if there is any grain of truth in what you say. Either that or stop believing everything you are told by electronic signals who have somehow earned your respect. Re terminology in the intro, pairs of male lovers would be good enough at that point in the article. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 22:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
And some French Fries to go with that please, no salt; a coffee too! I'll wait at the table by the window. Sir Gawain McGarson ( talk) 09:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
This "controversy" section should be removed and a simple paragraph inserted into the above noting that a recent publication, unsupported by the greater academic community, questioned their existence. That's it. We don't need to read his entire argument; it's irrelevant.
Wikipedia topics growing in size used to be a good thing. Now it seems like every single historical page has become a giant tug-of-war between nationalists, political extremists, religious zealots, and POV pushing douchebags of all flavors. None of the self-serving junk they insert can be deleted because draconian edit policies and "good faith" protect all but the most ludicrous additions from removal.
This is supposed to be an informative, encyclopedic article - it should not have ten times as much space devoted to "controversy" as it does to famous quotes from ancient historical sources.
From a quick glance at the talk page, it looks like this all goes back to one loser who had nothing better to do that day than twist everything here into his preferred author's perspective. Subsequent attempts to re-balance the page turned into an edit war, which was settled by giving this asswipe his own section (and essentially letting him have the last word in the article).
Hooray for wikipedia....
/endrant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.92.45.226 ( talk) 16:33, 18 September 2012
I've removed all but one of the dab links in the article and also removed the dablinks template. The remaining dab link is redirectd from medized to the "dab" page medism. It's not actually a proper dab page though -- it contains a short article about the relevant medism, and a two sentence definition of an irrelevant medism. I will tag the medism page for cleanup. In the meantime, since there isn't an article page for the relevant medism and the dab page does contain relevant information, I am leaving in the link to the dab page. Susfele ( talk) 04:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The lead is 70 words compared to article c. 6000. Should be around 1/25 of the whole article. Soerfm ( talk) 13:34, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, since wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. Andrew🐉( talk) 12:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)