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This is my second attempt at creating a page. I know it needs citation etc. but all that's coming. Let me know what you think, here or at my User Talk page. Turly-burly 16:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm actually getting conflicting views from both of my sources now... not sure how much is specualtion on their parts but I'm trying to make sense of their rambling. -- Makaio 04:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The subheading "Ancestors and Their Place in Time" is awkwardly-placed, I think. I would like to tie it more to the paragraph that preceeds it. Any help is greatly appreciated. Turly-burly 14:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section pending confirmation by a factual source of non-original research (that is, by a non-anime source and a source that isn't asking one's friends who are kind of studying this sort of thing). Talking to people is helpful to confirm things or get leads, but can't be a basis for article content. Now, no one I've talked to has ever heard these accounts of how futu ("the dead") appear, and some published accounts of both yuta visions and those who have had visions of their ancestors contradict this account of drab costume and indistinguishability. The fact that futu living in the middle age have all become One in a collective spirit may contribute to this idea of indistinguishibility. I also don't think it is naka ga yuu nu futu who intervene; as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it is only those ancestors living in the present age (i.e. those dead within 25 generations before now) who visit the living, can be contacted through yuta, and cause "ancestral notice" (indication that family relationships aren't right). I'll spend some time in the library this weekend and try to sort all this out through readings of documented research.
As far as nomenclature is concerned, I'm going to spend today looking at word lists to see if I can ferret out the truth. Turly-burly 01:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Upon a convo with my friend at Baylor who I hadn't heard from until last night, actually told me alot of the information I presented was false. I'm afraid I've simply confused things for your article. I can see now that it is impossible to really believe ones own friends especially when you haven't had any reason to believe them in the past. Again I personally have to apologize, I jumped to conclusions when I was adding things on, not even considering if they were the truth. I am terribly angry about this and I apologize for wasting alot of your own and especially alot of my own time. -- Makaio 03:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as nomenclature is concerned, I'm going to spend today looking at word lists to see if I can ferret out the truth. Turly-burly 01:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the physical appearance of the Buchidan? Is it a shrine, or a room in the home? I was wondering when I looked it over. -- Makaio 04:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I added a bit more descriptives to the butsudan section. References are somewhat problematic; however, my wife's mother has a large book that explains how to set up the butsudan for each of the festivals, and it is broken down by region. It seems that the butsudon is adorned differently in Nago than it is in Naha than it is on Ishigaki Island. I will try to add that as a reference at a later date.
I've renamed this article from Ryukyuan religion to Ryūkyūan religion in accordance with the guidelines in the Manual of Style for Japanese articles. Bobo12345 12:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
May I ask to consider renaming the article "Ryukyu Shinto"? That is how it the religion of Ryukyu is known as in Japan (not only in the mainland, but also in Okinawa). If you kindly would check with this articles: http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000933/files/18391_22335.html http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000933/files/46323_26565.html
It's true that the religion of Ryukyu is a combination of Shinto, plus some stuff from the continent, as well as some unique variations, but the base is Shinto. Please give it some serious thoughts. All the best.
124.33.177.82 ( talk) 08:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Pretty sure these words are Uchinaguchi and thus would be spelled with katakana (a la "haisai"). any comment? -- Turly-Burly (sorry, not logged in on this comp)
It seems that the usage of the term "Shinto" can be very misleading. First of all, Japanese "Shinto" itself can hardly be called a unified religion, and there is an important distinction to be made between local religious practices, Shinto as practiced by local shrines, and Shinto as it historically developed under State Shinto. Secondly, to call Ryukyuan practices "Shinto" makes a direct lineal connection between Japanese Shinto and Ryukyuan religious practices, which in fact reinforces a colonial position. Colonial policies by the Japanese in the Ryukyus deliberately and systematically tried to reinterpret local sites as Shinto shrines, as George Kerr among many other scholars have related. This aspect is very disturbing considering much evidence to point towards a very separate development of local practice up until the colonization of Okinawa in 1879. Some of the sources themselves may use such terms to describe local religious practices/beliefs in the Ryukyus, but we have to interrogate both the authors and the time periods in which they were writing and not unconsciously use these terms without question. As a point of reference, would anyone call Korean local religious practice "Korean Shinto"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.253.44 ( talk) 22:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Shinto is a common name for the religions of the Japanese people, meaning the Japanese ethnic group. Ryukyuans, though they had their own country for years (just as England was originally petty kingdoms), are ethnically Japanese and do speak a Japanese dialect. The Ryukyuan dialect is closer to standard Japanese than Low German is to High German (in fact Low German has a different origin entirely and thus can be considered a language) yet Low German is considered a dialect of German; Ryukyuan is a dialect.
Ryukyuans have a distinct culture because they were not unified with Japan until quite late but they are still Japanese, just as the Northumbrians were English before being unified with the Wessex-led Kingdom of England. Wikipedian's bias against counting Ryukyuans as Japanese (which is an ethnic group as well as a nationality) is quite silly and not at all accepted. Ryukyuans have the same origins as the mainland Japanese (and have close similarities, culturally and linguistically, with Kyushuans) unlike the Ainu who really are a distinct ethnic group. 94.7.58.116 ( talk) 09:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Shinto is therefore an adequate name for the
The result of the move request was: moved Kotniski ( talk) 11:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Ryukyuan Shinto → Ryukyuan religion — As stated in the article, Japanese Shinto may have influenced/been influenced by indigenous Ryukyuan traditions, but calling the religion "Shinto" misleads the reader to think that Ryukyuan traditions are more directly analogous to Japanese Shinto than they actually are. Also, in my research (the books listed in the works cited and bibliography sections of the article), I did not once find a reference to "Ryukyuan Shinto" or even "Okinawan Shinto". The Contents of the article itself mention Shinto only three times, and then in passing. I propose that the article be moved back over to Ryukyuan religion over the redirect now in place. DaAnHo ( talk) 13:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
In summary:
1. Support for the change is to allow a broader, comprehensive description of the religions of Ryukyu Islands, not only that of mainland Okinawa Island may be fine.
2. Nevertheless, "Ryukyu Shinto" does exist as a terminology; it IS a type of Shinto. It was also the title of a book written by a Japanese monk who came to Okinawa early 17th century, being ordered by King Shonei of Ryukyu.
You can actually find mentions on "Ryukyu Shinto" or "Okinawa Shinto", as well as articles on the book above, in English: just perform a search on those external web site listed on the article, and you'll find them out pretty easily. If you wish, you may perform your search using kanji characters to find more hits in Japanese. Remember those are sites made by people of Okinawa, and that it's not the only place where you can find those terms.
Do not speculate that Ryukyu Shinto is not a Shinto based on the ground that terms like "Ryukyu Shinto" or "Okinawa Shinto" are not populary found, or just how many (or few) times "Shinto" is mentioned in the article. The article accounts enough for the worshipping of different kami, which is the required element for it to be called a Shinto belief.
Unlike Buddhism or Christianity, whose central figure, or founder is naturally and clearly known, Shinto is only a term used to collectively refer to any religion that worship various deities, or kami. There is no doubt that the notorious State Shinto lineage is the one predominantly known in the West than any other type of Shinto, and given the role it played during Japan's early modernization, it is understandable that some people come up with a perception that Shinto is not suitable to describe other Japanese Shinto type religions, including that of Okinawa, which do not revere the gods which are tied to the imperial family of Japan. The word Shinto, however, is the least restrictive but rather the most universal terminology covering any kami religions. The Shinto article on Wikipedia also explains this as well in the first paragraph, but it seems that this is too often forgotten. "Shinto" is exactly the right word to represent any religion on the archipelago that reveres one or more kami.
While the term "Shinto" was introduced to the West during as early as the Tokugawa Shogunate period when the Portuguese arrived in Japan, it largely remained a scholarly nomenclature, dealing with every type of "kami" faith. It was an uncommon word among the public, until people were presented with a Shinto separated from Buddhism under the growing nationalism during and following the Meiji period. Nowadays, the term itself has become common, but that did not make people be conscious of praying for Shinto belief as a unified religion at all. When people visits a shrine, it is specifically to see their favorite oinari-san asking for good harvest, or wishing the super talent Tenjin-san share them success at school or in business, etc. Yet, "Shinto" is the only useful word that can represent these beliefs altogether.
That's not to say there's no nationalist in Japan, but there is no need to be overly obsessed by a thought that whenever "Shinto" is spelled out, there is a military march stamping into the earth. Chesaydo ( talk) 08:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Several issues with this section, esp. POV. There also seems to be a lack of discussion of the origins of Ryukyuan Religion, but it may be obscured by the difficult-to-follow English. Removing it. DaAnHo ( talk) 02:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello I mentioned this to some folks from Okinawa and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Thinking they were just young folk and may never have learned about the native religion of Okinawa, I googled ふうるのかみ and couldn't find any mention of it. This may be because I don't know the kanji for ふうる and google doesn't match hiragana to kanji with that yomi. Do wikipedia articles about Japanese culture tend to include the kanji alongside romanization? Zeigfreid ( talk) 17:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.251.139.74 ( talk)
I know I didn't just make the info up out of thin air; if I can find the book, I'll cite that info. I got some information for this article from museum exhibits, too. This may have be taken from the recreated Okinawan village next to Churaumi Aquarium.
The word "fuuru" is probably a local word and thus usually written in katakana; it might not be associated with a kanji, and if it is, that kanji may be nigh-impossible to find except in some great database that also features historical local readings. If I were going to guess, I'd say that because this god's function is a little like fudo-myo, fuuru might be 不動. It's a wild guess though.
Regarding Okinawan people not knowing what you were talking about. It happened to me, too, when I lived there. It really all depends on whether or not the people you're talking to are interested in the subject; it also depends on where they're from in Okinawa. I found that rural people knew much more than people who spent most of their life in Naha and on the Japanese mainland. 125.196.65.1 ( talk) 15:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
When I first read the article, I was somewhat surprised, that it says the form of the tombs resembles a turtle. I was always told these tombs symbolise a womb or uterus, meaning the dead return, where they come from. I'm not an expert on the matter, but I read severaly articles stating the same, like here: http://www.oki-islandguide.com/culture-lifestyle/the-traditional-okinawan-turtleback-tomb ; http://www.stripes.com/military-life/on-okinawa-families-show-respect-for-the-dead-with-tradition-1.49217 The book "The Great Loochoo: A Study of Okinawan Village Life" by Clarence J. Glacken also refers to the womb-symbol. I think it deserves to be mentioned. -- 180.7.58.61 ( talk) 15:47, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Daily page views
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is my second attempt at creating a page. I know it needs citation etc. but all that's coming. Let me know what you think, here or at my User Talk page. Turly-burly 16:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm actually getting conflicting views from both of my sources now... not sure how much is specualtion on their parts but I'm trying to make sense of their rambling. -- Makaio 04:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The subheading "Ancestors and Their Place in Time" is awkwardly-placed, I think. I would like to tie it more to the paragraph that preceeds it. Any help is greatly appreciated. Turly-burly 14:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this section pending confirmation by a factual source of non-original research (that is, by a non-anime source and a source that isn't asking one's friends who are kind of studying this sort of thing). Talking to people is helpful to confirm things or get leads, but can't be a basis for article content. Now, no one I've talked to has ever heard these accounts of how futu ("the dead") appear, and some published accounts of both yuta visions and those who have had visions of their ancestors contradict this account of drab costume and indistinguishability. The fact that futu living in the middle age have all become One in a collective spirit may contribute to this idea of indistinguishibility. I also don't think it is naka ga yuu nu futu who intervene; as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it is only those ancestors living in the present age (i.e. those dead within 25 generations before now) who visit the living, can be contacted through yuta, and cause "ancestral notice" (indication that family relationships aren't right). I'll spend some time in the library this weekend and try to sort all this out through readings of documented research.
As far as nomenclature is concerned, I'm going to spend today looking at word lists to see if I can ferret out the truth. Turly-burly 01:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Upon a convo with my friend at Baylor who I hadn't heard from until last night, actually told me alot of the information I presented was false. I'm afraid I've simply confused things for your article. I can see now that it is impossible to really believe ones own friends especially when you haven't had any reason to believe them in the past. Again I personally have to apologize, I jumped to conclusions when I was adding things on, not even considering if they were the truth. I am terribly angry about this and I apologize for wasting alot of your own and especially alot of my own time. -- Makaio 03:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as nomenclature is concerned, I'm going to spend today looking at word lists to see if I can ferret out the truth. Turly-burly 01:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the physical appearance of the Buchidan? Is it a shrine, or a room in the home? I was wondering when I looked it over. -- Makaio 04:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I added a bit more descriptives to the butsudan section. References are somewhat problematic; however, my wife's mother has a large book that explains how to set up the butsudan for each of the festivals, and it is broken down by region. It seems that the butsudon is adorned differently in Nago than it is in Naha than it is on Ishigaki Island. I will try to add that as a reference at a later date.
I've renamed this article from Ryukyuan religion to Ryūkyūan religion in accordance with the guidelines in the Manual of Style for Japanese articles. Bobo12345 12:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
May I ask to consider renaming the article "Ryukyu Shinto"? That is how it the religion of Ryukyu is known as in Japan (not only in the mainland, but also in Okinawa). If you kindly would check with this articles: http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000933/files/18391_22335.html http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000933/files/46323_26565.html
It's true that the religion of Ryukyu is a combination of Shinto, plus some stuff from the continent, as well as some unique variations, but the base is Shinto. Please give it some serious thoughts. All the best.
124.33.177.82 ( talk) 08:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Pretty sure these words are Uchinaguchi and thus would be spelled with katakana (a la "haisai"). any comment? -- Turly-Burly (sorry, not logged in on this comp)
It seems that the usage of the term "Shinto" can be very misleading. First of all, Japanese "Shinto" itself can hardly be called a unified religion, and there is an important distinction to be made between local religious practices, Shinto as practiced by local shrines, and Shinto as it historically developed under State Shinto. Secondly, to call Ryukyuan practices "Shinto" makes a direct lineal connection between Japanese Shinto and Ryukyuan religious practices, which in fact reinforces a colonial position. Colonial policies by the Japanese in the Ryukyus deliberately and systematically tried to reinterpret local sites as Shinto shrines, as George Kerr among many other scholars have related. This aspect is very disturbing considering much evidence to point towards a very separate development of local practice up until the colonization of Okinawa in 1879. Some of the sources themselves may use such terms to describe local religious practices/beliefs in the Ryukyus, but we have to interrogate both the authors and the time periods in which they were writing and not unconsciously use these terms without question. As a point of reference, would anyone call Korean local religious practice "Korean Shinto"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.253.44 ( talk) 22:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Shinto is a common name for the religions of the Japanese people, meaning the Japanese ethnic group. Ryukyuans, though they had their own country for years (just as England was originally petty kingdoms), are ethnically Japanese and do speak a Japanese dialect. The Ryukyuan dialect is closer to standard Japanese than Low German is to High German (in fact Low German has a different origin entirely and thus can be considered a language) yet Low German is considered a dialect of German; Ryukyuan is a dialect.
Ryukyuans have a distinct culture because they were not unified with Japan until quite late but they are still Japanese, just as the Northumbrians were English before being unified with the Wessex-led Kingdom of England. Wikipedian's bias against counting Ryukyuans as Japanese (which is an ethnic group as well as a nationality) is quite silly and not at all accepted. Ryukyuans have the same origins as the mainland Japanese (and have close similarities, culturally and linguistically, with Kyushuans) unlike the Ainu who really are a distinct ethnic group. 94.7.58.116 ( talk) 09:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Shinto is therefore an adequate name for the
The result of the move request was: moved Kotniski ( talk) 11:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Ryukyuan Shinto → Ryukyuan religion — As stated in the article, Japanese Shinto may have influenced/been influenced by indigenous Ryukyuan traditions, but calling the religion "Shinto" misleads the reader to think that Ryukyuan traditions are more directly analogous to Japanese Shinto than they actually are. Also, in my research (the books listed in the works cited and bibliography sections of the article), I did not once find a reference to "Ryukyuan Shinto" or even "Okinawan Shinto". The Contents of the article itself mention Shinto only three times, and then in passing. I propose that the article be moved back over to Ryukyuan religion over the redirect now in place. DaAnHo ( talk) 13:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
In summary:
1. Support for the change is to allow a broader, comprehensive description of the religions of Ryukyu Islands, not only that of mainland Okinawa Island may be fine.
2. Nevertheless, "Ryukyu Shinto" does exist as a terminology; it IS a type of Shinto. It was also the title of a book written by a Japanese monk who came to Okinawa early 17th century, being ordered by King Shonei of Ryukyu.
You can actually find mentions on "Ryukyu Shinto" or "Okinawa Shinto", as well as articles on the book above, in English: just perform a search on those external web site listed on the article, and you'll find them out pretty easily. If you wish, you may perform your search using kanji characters to find more hits in Japanese. Remember those are sites made by people of Okinawa, and that it's not the only place where you can find those terms.
Do not speculate that Ryukyu Shinto is not a Shinto based on the ground that terms like "Ryukyu Shinto" or "Okinawa Shinto" are not populary found, or just how many (or few) times "Shinto" is mentioned in the article. The article accounts enough for the worshipping of different kami, which is the required element for it to be called a Shinto belief.
Unlike Buddhism or Christianity, whose central figure, or founder is naturally and clearly known, Shinto is only a term used to collectively refer to any religion that worship various deities, or kami. There is no doubt that the notorious State Shinto lineage is the one predominantly known in the West than any other type of Shinto, and given the role it played during Japan's early modernization, it is understandable that some people come up with a perception that Shinto is not suitable to describe other Japanese Shinto type religions, including that of Okinawa, which do not revere the gods which are tied to the imperial family of Japan. The word Shinto, however, is the least restrictive but rather the most universal terminology covering any kami religions. The Shinto article on Wikipedia also explains this as well in the first paragraph, but it seems that this is too often forgotten. "Shinto" is exactly the right word to represent any religion on the archipelago that reveres one or more kami.
While the term "Shinto" was introduced to the West during as early as the Tokugawa Shogunate period when the Portuguese arrived in Japan, it largely remained a scholarly nomenclature, dealing with every type of "kami" faith. It was an uncommon word among the public, until people were presented with a Shinto separated from Buddhism under the growing nationalism during and following the Meiji period. Nowadays, the term itself has become common, but that did not make people be conscious of praying for Shinto belief as a unified religion at all. When people visits a shrine, it is specifically to see their favorite oinari-san asking for good harvest, or wishing the super talent Tenjin-san share them success at school or in business, etc. Yet, "Shinto" is the only useful word that can represent these beliefs altogether.
That's not to say there's no nationalist in Japan, but there is no need to be overly obsessed by a thought that whenever "Shinto" is spelled out, there is a military march stamping into the earth. Chesaydo ( talk) 08:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Several issues with this section, esp. POV. There also seems to be a lack of discussion of the origins of Ryukyuan Religion, but it may be obscured by the difficult-to-follow English. Removing it. DaAnHo ( talk) 02:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello I mentioned this to some folks from Okinawa and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Thinking they were just young folk and may never have learned about the native religion of Okinawa, I googled ふうるのかみ and couldn't find any mention of it. This may be because I don't know the kanji for ふうる and google doesn't match hiragana to kanji with that yomi. Do wikipedia articles about Japanese culture tend to include the kanji alongside romanization? Zeigfreid ( talk) 17:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.251.139.74 ( talk)
I know I didn't just make the info up out of thin air; if I can find the book, I'll cite that info. I got some information for this article from museum exhibits, too. This may have be taken from the recreated Okinawan village next to Churaumi Aquarium.
The word "fuuru" is probably a local word and thus usually written in katakana; it might not be associated with a kanji, and if it is, that kanji may be nigh-impossible to find except in some great database that also features historical local readings. If I were going to guess, I'd say that because this god's function is a little like fudo-myo, fuuru might be 不動. It's a wild guess though.
Regarding Okinawan people not knowing what you were talking about. It happened to me, too, when I lived there. It really all depends on whether or not the people you're talking to are interested in the subject; it also depends on where they're from in Okinawa. I found that rural people knew much more than people who spent most of their life in Naha and on the Japanese mainland. 125.196.65.1 ( talk) 15:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
When I first read the article, I was somewhat surprised, that it says the form of the tombs resembles a turtle. I was always told these tombs symbolise a womb or uterus, meaning the dead return, where they come from. I'm not an expert on the matter, but I read severaly articles stating the same, like here: http://www.oki-islandguide.com/culture-lifestyle/the-traditional-okinawan-turtleback-tomb ; http://www.stripes.com/military-life/on-okinawa-families-show-respect-for-the-dead-with-tradition-1.49217 The book "The Great Loochoo: A Study of Okinawan Village Life" by Clarence J. Glacken also refers to the womb-symbol. I think it deserves to be mentioned. -- 180.7.58.61 ( talk) 15:47, 23 March 2016 (UTC)