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Whether being "racy" or not, it is a fact that many of Russia's minority groups frequently register as Russians, and in addition to that many are overreported due to Russian estimates (it's not easy to take a census in Siberia). Here is some evidence online, though there are many better sources offline stating the same:
According to this publication, the percentage of the population that is ethnically Russian has declined from 81.5 in 1989 to 71.7 in 2002.
Source: http://www.csis.org/ruseura/ponars/policymemos/pm_0319.pdf
According to the census of the Russian Federation, the number of ethnic Russians was 104 million out of 144.2 million of the overall population in Russia. Considering the fact that demographic figures in Russia have always been considered to be a national security issue, then proceeding from Soviet/Russian practice of demographic overstatements, you can say for sure that the number of 104 ethnic Russians is set too high and it's already been quite a while since the real number of ethnic Russians sank under the psychological mark of 100 million.
Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=IBR20050106&articleId=375
Please do not be foolish and stop reverting the edits. Thank you Antidote 23:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Why not? I'm still putting that 135 million is a possible statistics -- why do "official statistics" hold dominance over more obvious ones. The "official statistic" of English in America is 25 million, but CLEARLY that is an underestimate and so it is not presented.
Somebody reverted my edits that were alotted to me in the main text. This shows clear nationalistic bias. Any further edits of the like will be seen as "vandalism" or "coverup" and taken to the wikipedian authorities for analysis, for there is no reason why both are not allowed to be presented. Antidote 20:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Your first quote from the article you said is on this website :
http://www.csis.org/ruseura/ponars/policymemos/pm_0319.pdf
says nothing about ethnic Russians being 71 % of Russian population instead of 80 %. Only some guesswork about official info being false. Your second article :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=IBR20050106&articleId=375
is obviously very biased. Its is written by a Chechen and is taken from extremist web-site Kavkaz org. As soon as you find a credible reference I'll agree to have both estimates here.
There are to factors I think you don't realize here :
1) Ethnicity is based on people's self-identification and culture not just on genes and blood.
2) Illegal immigrants/temprorary residents are not counted in any census/official statistic.
Fisenko 21:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
You're simply "dismissing" all sources that do not fit your view. I clearly quoted where it talked about the 71% on the first publication above. The second being bias or not is only your opinion. Your assumption that Russian-reported statistics aren't bias is as foolhardy as one can get. The fact that sources exist to the contrary of the 80% mark, and that people bother to publish analysis on the subject is good enough proof as it is. I will not step down until these facts are given a primary mention in the article. Antidote 22:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Once again the promblem is 1)Your first link re-directs to main CSIS website not to the article you quoted. 2)Your second article is taken from the same website as proclamations of "Holy War" by Basayev and other terrorists who think its nice and dandy to take hostage/rig with boms schools with Russian kids, etc. Fisenko 01:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The first link is a PDF; that means you right click save as.
That's what I did. The same result. Fisenko 04:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Whether the second link is made by terrorists that does not automatically refure their claim...like it or not.
Yes it does. Fisenko 04:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Can we please come to a consensus? I hate revert wars. Is there any way you will include differing numbers in the population statistics? If no, then we will have to take this up the ladder.
Antidote 15:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Please don't confuse "statistics" with "guessworks". One cannot sit in Berkeley and count Russians. If there is a reputable reseacrh, ie., published in books or peer-reviewed articels, not just in someone's blogs or in Chattanooga Chronicler, you are welcome to present the opposing views. But this can go only as a separate section. mikka (t) 22:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Is it truly necessary to have those on this page? It's not like anyone doesn't know what Russians look like. Plus we already have an image of Russians in traditional dress. Antidote 00:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>>Until the late 19th century, Russia was a relatively underpopulated nation, especially when compared to the size of the territory on which it resided. In 1800, Russia had a population a little over 35 million, of which about a fourth included foreign nationals. By 1850, Russia's population doubled mainly due to the annexation of new lands from Catherine the Great's warfare gains. By the 20th century, Russia had the biggest population in Europe, as Tsarist Russia included many lands of Central Asia, the Caucasus, Eastern Europe, and Siberia. However, Russia's historically relative low population has revealed itself today in a new form. The fall of communism swung many Russians into poverty leading to a significant disparity between Russia's life expectancy and other Western countries'. In almost every area of Russia, death rates outcount birth rates, especially for ethnic Russians. The problem assessed today suggests a possible drop of almost a third of Russia's population in the next several decades.<<<<<
There is a number of problems with this new expansion of the article.
1) several historic inaccurancies , for example Russia could not possible double in size between 1800 and 1850 "mainly due to the annexation of new lands from Catherine the Great's warfare gains", for the number of reasons one of them is the fact that Catherine the Great died in 1796.
2)second problem the article talks about demographic situation in the Russian Federation, USSR, the Russian Empire in general and not about ethnic Russians.
I'm glad you like it Nikola, I figured it needed to be added. Anyway, the user who analyzed this was right. It was not Catherine the Great, but in fact, her successor, Alexander the first. I was not paying attention to the dates, as there have been many great land gains under many reigns. Secondly, the article does talk about ethnic Russians, though that is not as pronounced. It is still appropriate here because it reflects the population statistics. HotelRoom 03:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Please provide academic references for your population statistics. Some of your claims are very questionable. For example major territorial expansions of Russia were in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries not between 1800 and 1850. Fisenko 21:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
There's plenty more. HotelRoom 23:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The only population-wise significant gain for the Russian Empire between 1800 and 1850 was central Poland around Warsaw. That's about it, most major expansions of Russia were between 16th and late 18th century. Between 1800 and 1850 Russian population grew mostly because of Russian birth-rates not conquests. Fisenko 05:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was to withdraw the proposed move -- Lox ( t, c) 17:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Russians → Russian people : To follow pattern of other articles about peoples. David Kernow 14:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
This is misleading, as a quick look at Category:Ethnic groups in Europe shows. — Michael Z. 2006-01-18 23:38 Z
Someone must be kidding. What kind of jokers work is that? Well if a woman should be included then surely Catherine the Great. -- Lucius1976 20:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Lucius. That's freaking ridiculous at best. Take it off and replace it with something serious....how about Anna Kournikova.(joking) but seriously change it. 71.125.244.183 00:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Sharapova is the Russian whose name is mentioned by Western media most often. I'd replace her with Yuri Gagarin. -- Ghirla | talk 00:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Sharapova is probably not among four greatest Russians of all times, but I'd like her to stay to represent the beauty of Russian women ;) Voyevoda 00:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest taking her off and replacing her with Mikhail Gorbachev. Surely he's more important...ahem he pretty much changed the face of eastern europe. 71.125.244.183
Works for me :) 71.125.244.183
1. The image was not created in order to represent "most famous Russians" 2. Mikhail Gorbachev is a very controversial figure deeply unpopular with many Russians I would not recommend to include him. Ghirla summarized best my reasons for incuding Sharapova in the picture. Fisenko 01:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you say. But don't you find it slightly offensive that the picture of "Russians" shows Sharapova (who is great and all but not historically significant) among Peter the Great? I mean that's what it comes off as and it's silly. I think it's best to simply include more photos. 69.112.90.243
Believe me there would be more people offended by a picture of Gorbachev ... Fisenko 02:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, actually I agree it is not the point to include the most famous, or infamous persons. Rather the more positive people who made great achievements during history. I do not think that the tennis player did that. In hundred years no one will remember her. Well it is true that Catherine the Great was German, but so was William of Orange and he is included under the four greatest Dutch. Thats because he became a national hero of them. I find the suggestion of Juri Gagarin great. Do it. But i still believe Catherien the Great should be included as well. But, I believe the Russians on here should decide that. But, Sharapova is a joke. Sorry to say that. Might be eye candy, but apart from that. Otherwise Paris Hilton, god forbid, must be included under the four greatest Americans.
-- Lucius1976 14:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Otherwise Paris Hilton, god forbid, must be included under the four greatest Americans.
If any changes should be made at all is replacement of Peter the Great with for example Mikhail Lomonosov then we will have a more diverse range of Russians...one statesman from the middle ages, one scientist/educator from the 18th century, one writer from the end of 19th century and one modern female and sportsman. Two political leaders in the picture is the only downside I can see to a picture. The inspiration to this image was this one from the page on Serbs : File:4Serbs.jpg. Although I think the picture looks good as it is. Presenting a charismatic image of the Russians to the English-speaking public is more important than presenting image of Russians with greatest achievment...and of course Catherine the Great's image would not be suitable becuase the article is about ethnic Russians. Fisenko 00:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Peter the Great should stay. 69.112.90.243
I can only say, "wow"! I've come across this image from a Portal:Russia announcement , and I mean, come on, this image is nothing but a joke! I thought it was a case of vandalism! (Although from this discussion, it appears that it's not.) Seriously, you don't put painted portraits of Russian rulers and writers next to a western photograph of an ethnically Russian tennis player in order to represent Russians! People just won't understand! Masses are just going to revert the "vandalism", I'm surprised no-one has done that for good so far. MureninC 01:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Alexander Pushkin and Leo Tolstoy have been removed from the main image, as the former is not of ethnic Russian ancestry (a fact that he himself acknowledged), whereas the portait of the latter mostly consists of his beard, which conceals his Russian facial features. Instead, Alexander Nevsky and Anton Chekhov were added. Alexander Nevsky is supposed to represent the rich history of the Russian ethnicity and its historical roots, much in the same manner as the image of Elizabeth I is used in the article on the English. Anton Chekhov was chosen among the writers of the 19th century, as he is sufficiently famous throughout the world and has a very Russian appearance, which is quite evident in this particular portrait.
The size of the images has also been slightly modified. Humanophage 16:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The Russian ethnicity physically manifests itself, among other things, in various European phenotypes, the most typical of which are the Baltid and the Nordid phenotypes. The selection is supposed to show that. European traits are recessive, therefore, a single black grandparent would severely influence several generations of his descendants. That is what happened to Pushkin, who retained specific traits that are extremely uncommon among Russians, and which he himself did not ignore. His African ancestry is widely referred to in Russian culture, for instance, take a look at this: http://hiero.ru/2028300 . In other words, a significant part of his ancestry does not have anything to do with the Slavic Russian ethnicity, which is described on this page. It is not plausible to use Pushkin's portrait to illustrate this ethnicity. In fact, it is pointless to use portraits of famous persons of noticeably mixed ancestry in any articles describing ethnicities, unless the said ethnicity was formed as the result of such a mixture. Which is definitely not Pushkin's case. Humanophage 21:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, as i know, Maria Sharapova is tatarian. So she could represent tatarians;) 159.148.71.250 06:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
http://factfinder.census.gov/ Reports people of Russian "ancestry" as more than 3 million people living in the US. To anyone familiar with the Russian-speaking community in North America it is clear what much smaller number would identify themselves as ethnic Russians in the USA. U.S. Census Bereau in this survey does not even have a separate ancestry category as "Jewish". It is rather clear what this survey labeled most immigrants and their ancestors from Russia and former Soviet Union as having Russian ancestry. Russian Jews followed by people of mixed ancestry who reported one of their often multiple ancestry origins as Russian would make up the largest group in this survey. I restored the old estimate reported here and will look for a more specific reference about ethnic Russians in USA. Fisenko 16:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can argue against this statistic since U.S. Census Bureau uses different criteria in its "ancestry" data than other countries those ethnic statistics used in this article. For example statistic provided for Russia is based only on people's ethnic self-identification as Russians in recent census. US Census Bureau uses different criteria which includes both ethnic self-identification on survey and your ancestors place of birth, it also accepted multiple ancestry entries. [4]. That's why there is 3 million of people with Russian ancestry in USA but only 700 000 for example speak Russian language at home [5]. Even this 700 000 strong Russian-speaking community would be divided into ethnic Russians, Jews, Ukrainians, Tatars etc. in other statistic entries given for example for Kazakhstan or Latvia. Fisenko 23:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Once again US Census Bureau accepts multiple entries in its ancestry date therefore person whose ethnicity would be "Jewish" or "German" in Russian or Kazakh census would call himself "Russian Jew" or "Russian German" in US Census would be entered separately under both Russian and for example Jewish ancestry numbers. Obviously it is well known fact ethnic Russian community in USA numbers in hundreds of thousands rather than millions. However, if you add to this all the people with partial Russian ancestry and all the people who would identify themselves as Russian Jews etc. and you have up to 3 million people. Fisenko 03:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Living in North America, I can tell you the Russian community in the US is large, much larger than you think, and there is definitely somewhere close to 3 million with significant Russian heritage. Even if one includes Russian as a multiple entry, they still have Russian ethnic origin and you cant argue with that. If someone is Jewish then they usually select just Jewish, even if their Jewish ancestors came from Poland, Russia, wherever. Those who select Jewish or some other ethnicity along with Russian, are clearly stating they also have ethnic Russian origins as well. These people are deserve to be mentioned in the statistics and you cant claim the other statistics on this page exempt people who arent "pure" ethnic Russians. Im positive the other statistics include those who have some degree of non-Russian origins as well. I ask that you stop reverting this official census data. Thank you. Epf 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We are not talking about ethnic "purity" or any of such nonsense here. The issue here is that US census bureau in its statistic uses multiple ethnic entries i.e. they will write a single person under different ancestry columns thus multiplying the number by several times compared to ethnic census in other countries, where the person would have no option but to state a single ancestry during the population census. [6]. The issue here is a difference in methods between census in USA and elswhere , specifically in former Soviet Union. Not "ethnic purity" or any of such demagogy. The number for Russian-speaking community in USA is only 700 000 [7] this number is much close to the real number of ethnic Russians in USA. I'm also very familiar with the Russian community in North America and its only significant in several major urban centres like New York, Toronto, Seattle, Boston, San-Francisco, Philadelphia and Miami. Fisenko 16:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Im sorry to say but you are incorrect here, because there are significant Russian communities across Canada and the USA, not just in the largest urban centres. The number of people who speak Russian language is not the same thing as those who are of Russian ethnic origin. This article is about Russians as an ethnic group. Now because the responses include multiple origins, it does not mean they "multiply" their responses. Those who claim single Russian ancestry and those who claim Russian ancestry along with another (multiple) are added together to form the numbers. Therefore, these numbers do not exaggerate anything and are obviously quite accurate. I really think you might be confused with how the data is formulated. If someone says their ancestry is Russian only, then that is it, they are only counted once. When someone reports Russian and another ancestry, they are counted under both ancestry categories. When the numbers for each ancestry/ethnic category are accumulated, those who selected Russian and some other ancestry will be counted twice (for each ethnic category they reported) so that the total number of responses will obviously be more than the total number of those who took part in the census. This however does not mean that the numbers for each category are inflated and when 3 million report Russian ancestry, it means 3 million different people claim to have Russian ancestry either solely or along with another ancestry. So if say for example 700,000 reported Russian as a single ancestry, another 2 million or so would also be included who reported Russian along with another ancestry. So when there is 3 million people claiming Russian ancestry, it means there are 3 million different persons who claim to have Russian ethnic origins. I hope this helps clairfy some things, and if you already knew this, well then my apologies. Epf 17:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are correct absolutely correct, there is no argument here. However my point was that in all other censuses present in the article they use a different method. On Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Latvian etc. censuses all people will have to choose and enter only a single ancestry. Therefore, the data used for all other countries would not use the same criteria as in USA.
BTW Any member of the Russian immigrant community in North America will tell you what the "Russian-speaking" community in USA is larger than “ethnic Russian” community not the other way around.
Fisenko 18:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Well from personal experience growing up in North America, it is quite the contrary with most people who are European immigrants and their descendants. With most immigrant groups here unfortunately, there are more who are of the ethnic origin than those who can speak the language. The only exception may be Spanish as there is more people here who can speak it than can claim Spanish or mixed Spanish (Hispanic) ancestry. In Canada, multiculturalism and diversity is encouraged much more and with more cases here than in the US, the number of speakers is more than the number who can claim to be of the ethnicity. I see your point though that there are obviosuly millions more of Russian speakers in the world than ethnic Russians, but in the US, most of them have lost their knowledge of that language. At this point though, do you think the US census figure should be included or not ? Epf 05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
You are not very familiar with the history of Russian immigration into North America. There were four waves so to speak of Russian immigrants into North America. First wave (1880-1910s) was relatively small and this were mostly peasants and religious minorities (like Dukhobors in Canada) and others from Russian Empire/Austro-Hungary and were just a small component of huge wave of East European migrants who mostly were Jews, Ukrainians, Rusyns, German Mennonites (many of who were known as Russians at the time) etc. Second wave of Russian immigrants followed the Russian Civil War of 1917-1921 consisted of anti-Bolshevik exiles the so-called White immigrants and was still relatively small (initially they prefered places closer to home in Europe or China), as well as third wave which followed the Second World War and was even smaller (most third wave immigrants were actually second wave White immigrants moving from Europe/China into North America). In the late 1980s and 1990s the largest influx of Russian immigrants came to North America (the breakdown of immigrants from former Soviet Union was still dominated by Jews, Ukrainians and other minorities), among recent immigrants many Russian Jews do very often identify themselves as simply Russians. It is also quiet clear what most of them have not yet forgotten their language. Fisenko 11:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Most indeed have forgetten the language as with practically all other European migrant groups to the USA. The Russian Jews do cite Jewish ancestry for the most part, but it is impossible to tell how many non-Russians cite Russian or not. Either way, you cant debate and exempt official statistic data. If you like, you can put a note beside the reference to the data saying how the number may include some who possibly dont have any Russian ethnic origins. There is a separate category in the census for "Soviet Union" ancestry for those who are just putting where they came from geographically. You also underestimate the numbers of ethnic Russians who fled both during the great migrations to the Americas of the late 19th/early 20th centuries and after the collapse of the Soviet Union, The ethnic Russian communtiy is very large in America and Canada and these people very much are not simply Russian Jews. I am telling you from what can be read from history of Russian migration to the Americas and statistics about the ethnic Russian community here. Also, do not change the Canadian census data. Those who have Russian ancestry and another ancestry deserve to be included as well and it is ignorant POV in my opinion to say otherwise. Epf 02:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump into an already-heated debate, but I feel it important to note that, despite what the U.S. census did a century ago, Jews are not an ethnic group - they're a religion. So it's probably not wise to use that as gauge of how many ethnic Russians live in the US. Seems to me the article has to more clearly define what does it mean by Russians living elsewhere. Perhaps "people born in Russia"? Kosboot 17:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I have made this photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Russfamo2.JPG It's here for almost a month already, but i still decided to explain how i made it here on the debate. I judged by contribution and not by sex. I entered those people who are most recognizable in the world, and whose contribution is most known in the world. There are many great Russians, so it was not easy to chose, but i thing i chose the once whose faces are the faces of the nation. I'm sorry no woman entered here, but i judged by contribution and not by sex. Offcourse a could take any woman and enter it here, but it would be obvious thats a populistic act of co-equality. M.V.E.i. 17:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
there are only 100000 russian citizens in israel, most of them are jewish! you can not clam russian ethnicity! giving the fact that most of the "russians" in israel are jewish and only speak in russian. i would put the real number on 50000 ethnic russians only! the major part of the russian speakers in israel came from ukraine, moldova and belarus. about 1/4 of the so called "russians" in israel came from central asia. -- Ifeldman84 22:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I drastically shortened the infobox by conflating the population figures into 3 categories (Russia, other ex-USSR, non-USSR). This unfortunately involved adding up census figures from different years in different countries undoubtedly gathered by different methodologies (the source data are still available in the footnotes); if you object, please suggest another way to shorten the infobox, since the length was getting pretty ridiculous. Thanks! cab 13:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
A very large number of Russians are atheists. I think it would be right to mention this in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.227.3.100 ( talk) 18:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
I think that most of russians are agnostic too, though they're rather unpracticing orthodox. I know that there is a minority of russian muslims. I think this also should be noted in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.218.162.63 ( talk) 01:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The 2001 census of Uzbekistan puts the Russian population at 1,092,000. Is it possible to reduce the figure to 620,000 in 2005?????? [8]
Is there any way to derive the number of ethnic Russians in Israel? The Israeli census lists 291,700 "Others" (non-Jews and non-Arabs), but it is unclear as to how many of these are ethnic Russians (as opposed to other Christian ethnicities). Cossack 14:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one to find it most unusual that there should be a whole separate section in the article describing the Russian diaspora in China? It is, after all, rather insignificant in comparison to the rest. I suggest fully merging it with "Russians outside Russia". User:Humanophage 20:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Tommorow it's a holy day, day of victory on the Nazis, the victory in which Russian played the biggest role, more then everybody together played. M.V.E.i. 13:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC) And first half of WW2 war fight in nazi side. But then Hitler betraied Soviet Union and Molotov - Ribentrop pact.
Both numbers are very inflated. In USA population census everyone who claimed even partial Russian ancestry is recorded as Russian, while many do not consider ancestry as ethnic origin but rather as a place of origin, therefore, many Russian Jews and others with roots from Russia/USSR/Russian Empire claim Russian ancestry.
Brazil only has 4 Russian churches and Russian language is only spoken by a few thousand people and not mention anywhere as a minority language unlike Polish, Italian or German. Obviously there are no 500, 000 ethnic Russians in Brazil. The same is true about Argentina. Fisenko 22:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mongol Invasion led by Batu Khan and his Blue Horde, conquered and ruled Russia for about 250 years. Many cities and towns were destroyed during that time. Why is that today the Russians still look caucasian and the Russian language is still an indo-european language? Didn't the mongol invaders impact the Russian language and ethnicity? Homer33 04:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
If russians look partly mongoloid (and most did), it is becouse of asimilation of eastern finno-ugres not becouse of mongols. Most of Batu Khan army was ethnicaly turkic not mongols. Still, western mongols - kalmiks have influenced russians. For example Lenin was 1/2 kalmik. In russian there are many turkic and finno-ugric words, but all indo-european langues have many non indo-european words. So it is Indo-european langue. 159.148.71.250 06:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I doubt that you should listen to that guy, considering the fact that his ip is from Latvia, and we know how balts feel about Russians. The most asian europeans are the finno-ugric group, which includes finns and estonians. -- GerojiYuga 10:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Lets discuss the image that should be in the top right corner. I think if we go for the eight people then at least one should be a woman, otherwise it is simply ridicoulus. Also there should be somebody before the 19th century. For woman maybe Anna Pavlova (see Commons:Category:Anna Pavlova or Anna Akhmatova? Alex Bakharev 08:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The census talks about Russian citizens, while the article is only about ethnic Russians. Most of the Russian citizens living in the USA, infact, almost all, are Jewish. Ancenstry here means the country the man came from. For exemplem Israeli 106,839. But there aint such a nationality Israely isn't it (they are Jews)? This census is NOT ethnic. M.V.E.i. 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
A lot of jews and ethic groups from the SU, are usually classified as russians by the american society, which has not even the singlets clues about who russians are, what they know about them they learned from anti-soviet cold-war propaganda movies. Their idea is that everything that comes out of Russia, is russian.-- GerojiYuga 10:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry. I seem to be having problems editing the popultion comlumn: I try to put in that 15, 000 ethnic Russians live in Poland, but it won't let me. Could someone please help?
With respect. -- 142.33.185.2 20:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Sergei
Are those figures for actual Moldova, or for separatist republic of Transnistria? Just wandering, because I always knew most Russian people in Moldova lived in Transnistria.
Valeriy.
Summary of this article say: "According to 2002 census, ethnic Russians make up about 80% of the population of Russia [24]." But I could not find this number in reference [24]. Can anyone copy and paste the corresponding segment or provide a better reference? Biophys 15:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic groups: Russian 79.8%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 2%, Bashkir 1.2%, Chuvash 1.1%, other or unspecified 12.1% (2002 census)
Search for "ethnic groups" on the corresponding page. Humanophage 12:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Statistics isn't accurate. Realy most of jews and tatars (becouse of fear of xenophobia) in Russia is counted as russians. In Russia there realy are more than 2% jewish.
<Ethnic Russians known as Great Russians (as oppose to White Russians and Little Russians) began to be recognized as a distinct ethnic group in the 15th century, when they were referred to as Muscovite Russians, during the consolidation of Muscovy Tsardom as a regional power.> Actualy when Ruthenia state joyned Muscovy, tzars started to call themselves great russians nad rusyns (ukrainians) small russians. So many ukrainians believe, that russians stolen they hystorical name.
Is their any chance someone who understands writes a few lines about a few Russian painters who influenced on the world of art alot in the Contribution to humanity section? Thank you. M.V.E.i. 18:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article that obviously violates a neutral point of view should be failed immediately. The section "Contribution to humanity" reads like propaganda; a separate section just to chronicle the positive contributions of ethnic russians is not acceptable. Other very serious issues present in the article include, but are not limited to: the lead section is far too short, there are multiple sections that are completely without inline citations, and the improper formatting of many of the references (just a numbered url is not sufficient to verify the reliability of a source). If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky Talk 18:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone who obviously hates himself and his nation, tries to feel better by constantly vandalizing this page. While people work hard on the article, someone vandalizes it. The user has a variety of IP numbers and nicknames. My request is: Check the history of this page frequently and see what the change which was done is. Also, an administrator might think of doing some long term IP ranges blocks.
Examples:
[9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28].
As you can see this user has many nicknames and IP's, but does the same thing. We were patient to much just reverting him back. I dont care if he feels the nation he came from is small and not important so he vandalizes the Russians page, i dont care if his bored. This must stop. We were quite about it to much. No Free Nickname Left ( talk) 20:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
(Note: someone else brought up the matter above under the section "Failed "good article" nomination")
Russian Literature is considered to be among the most influential literature in the world, sounds very much like propaganda. Considered by whom? Influential in what way?
Tolstoy and Dostoevsky in particular were titanic figures, and have remained internationally renowned, to the point that many scholars have described one or the other as the greatest novelist ever.
Titanic figures sounds like the writer tries to prove they were not merely great authors, but gods. Bad choice of words, and might have been written just to make them shine more than any other great author from any other country. One scholar (referenced) is far from many scholars, which the text asserts.
The information on World War II contains information which is POV and particularly difficult to verify;
A fact which the Russian people are proud of is the large part, larger than anybody elses part..., well, obviously the writer seems to be proud, but is the entire Russian people as proud as h/she is? And far worse, larger than anybody elses part is really a blatant POV. Sounds like the writer likes to downplay every other country involved in the Second World War. It was not only the SU fighting Germany, was it?
It was on the Eastern Front that the war was won or lost, for if the Red Army had not succeeded against all the odds in halting the Germans in 1941 and then inflicting the first major defeats at Stalingrad and Kursk in 1943, it is difficult to see how the western democracies, Britain and the US, could have expelled Germany from its new empire.
Well, one historian may have written this, but to present this particular historian's POV only (and not other historians) is violating WP:NPOV. It seems to have been written just to prove the point larger than anybody elses part..., does it not?
Hope this helps ya all. No need to think I'm anti-Russian here; I love Tchaikovsky and whatever, but the section needs to be rewritten in order to conform to Wikipedia standards. -- Protagon ( talk) 19:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The section contribution to humanity is referenced, so you cant tag "dubious" in a middle of a sentence that gives you references. The Contributaion to humanity section exists also in the English people,Italians and Bulgarians. Jews have an Achievments section, which is pretty much the same. This section was created and edited by many people, and it's just fine the way it is. M.V.E.i., Fisenko, Miyokan and me are just 4 of alot of people who have written it and and belive it's juust fine.
The Culture section is needed, but it needs to be written and expanded. No Free Nickname Left ( talk) 18:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Nope, wrong again, I'm not changing the case. That is precisely the case. You claim you know what peacock terms are, but still you don't see them. Therefore I will spell them out for you, slowly, one by one:
are all peaock terms by pure definition (actually perfect examples which would fit on the very page Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms itself as examples). Simply rewrite them to non-peacock versions, it's as simple as that, and I'll make no fuss. Please, where is your claimed majority or "consensus" which have discussed and suggested these particular wordings? Please show me, it would be interesting to see that previous discussion with other editors. -- Protagon ( talk) 20:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Whether being "racy" or not, it is a fact that many of Russia's minority groups frequently register as Russians, and in addition to that many are overreported due to Russian estimates (it's not easy to take a census in Siberia). Here is some evidence online, though there are many better sources offline stating the same:
According to this publication, the percentage of the population that is ethnically Russian has declined from 81.5 in 1989 to 71.7 in 2002.
Source: http://www.csis.org/ruseura/ponars/policymemos/pm_0319.pdf
According to the census of the Russian Federation, the number of ethnic Russians was 104 million out of 144.2 million of the overall population in Russia. Considering the fact that demographic figures in Russia have always been considered to be a national security issue, then proceeding from Soviet/Russian practice of demographic overstatements, you can say for sure that the number of 104 ethnic Russians is set too high and it's already been quite a while since the real number of ethnic Russians sank under the psychological mark of 100 million.
Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=IBR20050106&articleId=375
Please do not be foolish and stop reverting the edits. Thank you Antidote 23:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Why not? I'm still putting that 135 million is a possible statistics -- why do "official statistics" hold dominance over more obvious ones. The "official statistic" of English in America is 25 million, but CLEARLY that is an underestimate and so it is not presented.
Somebody reverted my edits that were alotted to me in the main text. This shows clear nationalistic bias. Any further edits of the like will be seen as "vandalism" or "coverup" and taken to the wikipedian authorities for analysis, for there is no reason why both are not allowed to be presented. Antidote 20:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Your first quote from the article you said is on this website :
http://www.csis.org/ruseura/ponars/policymemos/pm_0319.pdf
says nothing about ethnic Russians being 71 % of Russian population instead of 80 %. Only some guesswork about official info being false. Your second article :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=IBR20050106&articleId=375
is obviously very biased. Its is written by a Chechen and is taken from extremist web-site Kavkaz org. As soon as you find a credible reference I'll agree to have both estimates here.
There are to factors I think you don't realize here :
1) Ethnicity is based on people's self-identification and culture not just on genes and blood.
2) Illegal immigrants/temprorary residents are not counted in any census/official statistic.
Fisenko 21:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
You're simply "dismissing" all sources that do not fit your view. I clearly quoted where it talked about the 71% on the first publication above. The second being bias or not is only your opinion. Your assumption that Russian-reported statistics aren't bias is as foolhardy as one can get. The fact that sources exist to the contrary of the 80% mark, and that people bother to publish analysis on the subject is good enough proof as it is. I will not step down until these facts are given a primary mention in the article. Antidote 22:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Once again the promblem is 1)Your first link re-directs to main CSIS website not to the article you quoted. 2)Your second article is taken from the same website as proclamations of "Holy War" by Basayev and other terrorists who think its nice and dandy to take hostage/rig with boms schools with Russian kids, etc. Fisenko 01:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The first link is a PDF; that means you right click save as.
That's what I did. The same result. Fisenko 04:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Whether the second link is made by terrorists that does not automatically refure their claim...like it or not.
Yes it does. Fisenko 04:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Can we please come to a consensus? I hate revert wars. Is there any way you will include differing numbers in the population statistics? If no, then we will have to take this up the ladder.
Antidote 15:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Please don't confuse "statistics" with "guessworks". One cannot sit in Berkeley and count Russians. If there is a reputable reseacrh, ie., published in books or peer-reviewed articels, not just in someone's blogs or in Chattanooga Chronicler, you are welcome to present the opposing views. But this can go only as a separate section. mikka (t) 22:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Is it truly necessary to have those on this page? It's not like anyone doesn't know what Russians look like. Plus we already have an image of Russians in traditional dress. Antidote 00:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>>Until the late 19th century, Russia was a relatively underpopulated nation, especially when compared to the size of the territory on which it resided. In 1800, Russia had a population a little over 35 million, of which about a fourth included foreign nationals. By 1850, Russia's population doubled mainly due to the annexation of new lands from Catherine the Great's warfare gains. By the 20th century, Russia had the biggest population in Europe, as Tsarist Russia included many lands of Central Asia, the Caucasus, Eastern Europe, and Siberia. However, Russia's historically relative low population has revealed itself today in a new form. The fall of communism swung many Russians into poverty leading to a significant disparity between Russia's life expectancy and other Western countries'. In almost every area of Russia, death rates outcount birth rates, especially for ethnic Russians. The problem assessed today suggests a possible drop of almost a third of Russia's population in the next several decades.<<<<<
There is a number of problems with this new expansion of the article.
1) several historic inaccurancies , for example Russia could not possible double in size between 1800 and 1850 "mainly due to the annexation of new lands from Catherine the Great's warfare gains", for the number of reasons one of them is the fact that Catherine the Great died in 1796.
2)second problem the article talks about demographic situation in the Russian Federation, USSR, the Russian Empire in general and not about ethnic Russians.
I'm glad you like it Nikola, I figured it needed to be added. Anyway, the user who analyzed this was right. It was not Catherine the Great, but in fact, her successor, Alexander the first. I was not paying attention to the dates, as there have been many great land gains under many reigns. Secondly, the article does talk about ethnic Russians, though that is not as pronounced. It is still appropriate here because it reflects the population statistics. HotelRoom 03:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Please provide academic references for your population statistics. Some of your claims are very questionable. For example major territorial expansions of Russia were in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries not between 1800 and 1850. Fisenko 21:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
There's plenty more. HotelRoom 23:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The only population-wise significant gain for the Russian Empire between 1800 and 1850 was central Poland around Warsaw. That's about it, most major expansions of Russia were between 16th and late 18th century. Between 1800 and 1850 Russian population grew mostly because of Russian birth-rates not conquests. Fisenko 05:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was to withdraw the proposed move -- Lox ( t, c) 17:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Russians → Russian people : To follow pattern of other articles about peoples. David Kernow 14:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
This is misleading, as a quick look at Category:Ethnic groups in Europe shows. — Michael Z. 2006-01-18 23:38 Z
Someone must be kidding. What kind of jokers work is that? Well if a woman should be included then surely Catherine the Great. -- Lucius1976 20:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Lucius. That's freaking ridiculous at best. Take it off and replace it with something serious....how about Anna Kournikova.(joking) but seriously change it. 71.125.244.183 00:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Sharapova is the Russian whose name is mentioned by Western media most often. I'd replace her with Yuri Gagarin. -- Ghirla | talk 00:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Sharapova is probably not among four greatest Russians of all times, but I'd like her to stay to represent the beauty of Russian women ;) Voyevoda 00:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest taking her off and replacing her with Mikhail Gorbachev. Surely he's more important...ahem he pretty much changed the face of eastern europe. 71.125.244.183
Works for me :) 71.125.244.183
1. The image was not created in order to represent "most famous Russians" 2. Mikhail Gorbachev is a very controversial figure deeply unpopular with many Russians I would not recommend to include him. Ghirla summarized best my reasons for incuding Sharapova in the picture. Fisenko 01:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you say. But don't you find it slightly offensive that the picture of "Russians" shows Sharapova (who is great and all but not historically significant) among Peter the Great? I mean that's what it comes off as and it's silly. I think it's best to simply include more photos. 69.112.90.243
Believe me there would be more people offended by a picture of Gorbachev ... Fisenko 02:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, actually I agree it is not the point to include the most famous, or infamous persons. Rather the more positive people who made great achievements during history. I do not think that the tennis player did that. In hundred years no one will remember her. Well it is true that Catherine the Great was German, but so was William of Orange and he is included under the four greatest Dutch. Thats because he became a national hero of them. I find the suggestion of Juri Gagarin great. Do it. But i still believe Catherien the Great should be included as well. But, I believe the Russians on here should decide that. But, Sharapova is a joke. Sorry to say that. Might be eye candy, but apart from that. Otherwise Paris Hilton, god forbid, must be included under the four greatest Americans.
-- Lucius1976 14:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Otherwise Paris Hilton, god forbid, must be included under the four greatest Americans.
If any changes should be made at all is replacement of Peter the Great with for example Mikhail Lomonosov then we will have a more diverse range of Russians...one statesman from the middle ages, one scientist/educator from the 18th century, one writer from the end of 19th century and one modern female and sportsman. Two political leaders in the picture is the only downside I can see to a picture. The inspiration to this image was this one from the page on Serbs : File:4Serbs.jpg. Although I think the picture looks good as it is. Presenting a charismatic image of the Russians to the English-speaking public is more important than presenting image of Russians with greatest achievment...and of course Catherine the Great's image would not be suitable becuase the article is about ethnic Russians. Fisenko 00:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Peter the Great should stay. 69.112.90.243
I can only say, "wow"! I've come across this image from a Portal:Russia announcement , and I mean, come on, this image is nothing but a joke! I thought it was a case of vandalism! (Although from this discussion, it appears that it's not.) Seriously, you don't put painted portraits of Russian rulers and writers next to a western photograph of an ethnically Russian tennis player in order to represent Russians! People just won't understand! Masses are just going to revert the "vandalism", I'm surprised no-one has done that for good so far. MureninC 01:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Alexander Pushkin and Leo Tolstoy have been removed from the main image, as the former is not of ethnic Russian ancestry (a fact that he himself acknowledged), whereas the portait of the latter mostly consists of his beard, which conceals his Russian facial features. Instead, Alexander Nevsky and Anton Chekhov were added. Alexander Nevsky is supposed to represent the rich history of the Russian ethnicity and its historical roots, much in the same manner as the image of Elizabeth I is used in the article on the English. Anton Chekhov was chosen among the writers of the 19th century, as he is sufficiently famous throughout the world and has a very Russian appearance, which is quite evident in this particular portrait.
The size of the images has also been slightly modified. Humanophage 16:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The Russian ethnicity physically manifests itself, among other things, in various European phenotypes, the most typical of which are the Baltid and the Nordid phenotypes. The selection is supposed to show that. European traits are recessive, therefore, a single black grandparent would severely influence several generations of his descendants. That is what happened to Pushkin, who retained specific traits that are extremely uncommon among Russians, and which he himself did not ignore. His African ancestry is widely referred to in Russian culture, for instance, take a look at this: http://hiero.ru/2028300 . In other words, a significant part of his ancestry does not have anything to do with the Slavic Russian ethnicity, which is described on this page. It is not plausible to use Pushkin's portrait to illustrate this ethnicity. In fact, it is pointless to use portraits of famous persons of noticeably mixed ancestry in any articles describing ethnicities, unless the said ethnicity was formed as the result of such a mixture. Which is definitely not Pushkin's case. Humanophage 21:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, as i know, Maria Sharapova is tatarian. So she could represent tatarians;) 159.148.71.250 06:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
http://factfinder.census.gov/ Reports people of Russian "ancestry" as more than 3 million people living in the US. To anyone familiar with the Russian-speaking community in North America it is clear what much smaller number would identify themselves as ethnic Russians in the USA. U.S. Census Bereau in this survey does not even have a separate ancestry category as "Jewish". It is rather clear what this survey labeled most immigrants and their ancestors from Russia and former Soviet Union as having Russian ancestry. Russian Jews followed by people of mixed ancestry who reported one of their often multiple ancestry origins as Russian would make up the largest group in this survey. I restored the old estimate reported here and will look for a more specific reference about ethnic Russians in USA. Fisenko 16:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can argue against this statistic since U.S. Census Bureau uses different criteria in its "ancestry" data than other countries those ethnic statistics used in this article. For example statistic provided for Russia is based only on people's ethnic self-identification as Russians in recent census. US Census Bureau uses different criteria which includes both ethnic self-identification on survey and your ancestors place of birth, it also accepted multiple ancestry entries. [4]. That's why there is 3 million of people with Russian ancestry in USA but only 700 000 for example speak Russian language at home [5]. Even this 700 000 strong Russian-speaking community would be divided into ethnic Russians, Jews, Ukrainians, Tatars etc. in other statistic entries given for example for Kazakhstan or Latvia. Fisenko 23:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Once again US Census Bureau accepts multiple entries in its ancestry date therefore person whose ethnicity would be "Jewish" or "German" in Russian or Kazakh census would call himself "Russian Jew" or "Russian German" in US Census would be entered separately under both Russian and for example Jewish ancestry numbers. Obviously it is well known fact ethnic Russian community in USA numbers in hundreds of thousands rather than millions. However, if you add to this all the people with partial Russian ancestry and all the people who would identify themselves as Russian Jews etc. and you have up to 3 million people. Fisenko 03:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Living in North America, I can tell you the Russian community in the US is large, much larger than you think, and there is definitely somewhere close to 3 million with significant Russian heritage. Even if one includes Russian as a multiple entry, they still have Russian ethnic origin and you cant argue with that. If someone is Jewish then they usually select just Jewish, even if their Jewish ancestors came from Poland, Russia, wherever. Those who select Jewish or some other ethnicity along with Russian, are clearly stating they also have ethnic Russian origins as well. These people are deserve to be mentioned in the statistics and you cant claim the other statistics on this page exempt people who arent "pure" ethnic Russians. Im positive the other statistics include those who have some degree of non-Russian origins as well. I ask that you stop reverting this official census data. Thank you. Epf 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We are not talking about ethnic "purity" or any of such nonsense here. The issue here is that US census bureau in its statistic uses multiple ethnic entries i.e. they will write a single person under different ancestry columns thus multiplying the number by several times compared to ethnic census in other countries, where the person would have no option but to state a single ancestry during the population census. [6]. The issue here is a difference in methods between census in USA and elswhere , specifically in former Soviet Union. Not "ethnic purity" or any of such demagogy. The number for Russian-speaking community in USA is only 700 000 [7] this number is much close to the real number of ethnic Russians in USA. I'm also very familiar with the Russian community in North America and its only significant in several major urban centres like New York, Toronto, Seattle, Boston, San-Francisco, Philadelphia and Miami. Fisenko 16:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Im sorry to say but you are incorrect here, because there are significant Russian communities across Canada and the USA, not just in the largest urban centres. The number of people who speak Russian language is not the same thing as those who are of Russian ethnic origin. This article is about Russians as an ethnic group. Now because the responses include multiple origins, it does not mean they "multiply" their responses. Those who claim single Russian ancestry and those who claim Russian ancestry along with another (multiple) are added together to form the numbers. Therefore, these numbers do not exaggerate anything and are obviously quite accurate. I really think you might be confused with how the data is formulated. If someone says their ancestry is Russian only, then that is it, they are only counted once. When someone reports Russian and another ancestry, they are counted under both ancestry categories. When the numbers for each ancestry/ethnic category are accumulated, those who selected Russian and some other ancestry will be counted twice (for each ethnic category they reported) so that the total number of responses will obviously be more than the total number of those who took part in the census. This however does not mean that the numbers for each category are inflated and when 3 million report Russian ancestry, it means 3 million different people claim to have Russian ancestry either solely or along with another ancestry. So if say for example 700,000 reported Russian as a single ancestry, another 2 million or so would also be included who reported Russian along with another ancestry. So when there is 3 million people claiming Russian ancestry, it means there are 3 million different persons who claim to have Russian ethnic origins. I hope this helps clairfy some things, and if you already knew this, well then my apologies. Epf 17:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are correct absolutely correct, there is no argument here. However my point was that in all other censuses present in the article they use a different method. On Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Latvian etc. censuses all people will have to choose and enter only a single ancestry. Therefore, the data used for all other countries would not use the same criteria as in USA.
BTW Any member of the Russian immigrant community in North America will tell you what the "Russian-speaking" community in USA is larger than “ethnic Russian” community not the other way around.
Fisenko 18:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Well from personal experience growing up in North America, it is quite the contrary with most people who are European immigrants and their descendants. With most immigrant groups here unfortunately, there are more who are of the ethnic origin than those who can speak the language. The only exception may be Spanish as there is more people here who can speak it than can claim Spanish or mixed Spanish (Hispanic) ancestry. In Canada, multiculturalism and diversity is encouraged much more and with more cases here than in the US, the number of speakers is more than the number who can claim to be of the ethnicity. I see your point though that there are obviosuly millions more of Russian speakers in the world than ethnic Russians, but in the US, most of them have lost their knowledge of that language. At this point though, do you think the US census figure should be included or not ? Epf 05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
You are not very familiar with the history of Russian immigration into North America. There were four waves so to speak of Russian immigrants into North America. First wave (1880-1910s) was relatively small and this were mostly peasants and religious minorities (like Dukhobors in Canada) and others from Russian Empire/Austro-Hungary and were just a small component of huge wave of East European migrants who mostly were Jews, Ukrainians, Rusyns, German Mennonites (many of who were known as Russians at the time) etc. Second wave of Russian immigrants followed the Russian Civil War of 1917-1921 consisted of anti-Bolshevik exiles the so-called White immigrants and was still relatively small (initially they prefered places closer to home in Europe or China), as well as third wave which followed the Second World War and was even smaller (most third wave immigrants were actually second wave White immigrants moving from Europe/China into North America). In the late 1980s and 1990s the largest influx of Russian immigrants came to North America (the breakdown of immigrants from former Soviet Union was still dominated by Jews, Ukrainians and other minorities), among recent immigrants many Russian Jews do very often identify themselves as simply Russians. It is also quiet clear what most of them have not yet forgotten their language. Fisenko 11:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Most indeed have forgetten the language as with practically all other European migrant groups to the USA. The Russian Jews do cite Jewish ancestry for the most part, but it is impossible to tell how many non-Russians cite Russian or not. Either way, you cant debate and exempt official statistic data. If you like, you can put a note beside the reference to the data saying how the number may include some who possibly dont have any Russian ethnic origins. There is a separate category in the census for "Soviet Union" ancestry for those who are just putting where they came from geographically. You also underestimate the numbers of ethnic Russians who fled both during the great migrations to the Americas of the late 19th/early 20th centuries and after the collapse of the Soviet Union, The ethnic Russian communtiy is very large in America and Canada and these people very much are not simply Russian Jews. I am telling you from what can be read from history of Russian migration to the Americas and statistics about the ethnic Russian community here. Also, do not change the Canadian census data. Those who have Russian ancestry and another ancestry deserve to be included as well and it is ignorant POV in my opinion to say otherwise. Epf 02:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump into an already-heated debate, but I feel it important to note that, despite what the U.S. census did a century ago, Jews are not an ethnic group - they're a religion. So it's probably not wise to use that as gauge of how many ethnic Russians live in the US. Seems to me the article has to more clearly define what does it mean by Russians living elsewhere. Perhaps "people born in Russia"? Kosboot 17:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I have made this photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Russfamo2.JPG It's here for almost a month already, but i still decided to explain how i made it here on the debate. I judged by contribution and not by sex. I entered those people who are most recognizable in the world, and whose contribution is most known in the world. There are many great Russians, so it was not easy to chose, but i thing i chose the once whose faces are the faces of the nation. I'm sorry no woman entered here, but i judged by contribution and not by sex. Offcourse a could take any woman and enter it here, but it would be obvious thats a populistic act of co-equality. M.V.E.i. 17:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
there are only 100000 russian citizens in israel, most of them are jewish! you can not clam russian ethnicity! giving the fact that most of the "russians" in israel are jewish and only speak in russian. i would put the real number on 50000 ethnic russians only! the major part of the russian speakers in israel came from ukraine, moldova and belarus. about 1/4 of the so called "russians" in israel came from central asia. -- Ifeldman84 22:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I drastically shortened the infobox by conflating the population figures into 3 categories (Russia, other ex-USSR, non-USSR). This unfortunately involved adding up census figures from different years in different countries undoubtedly gathered by different methodologies (the source data are still available in the footnotes); if you object, please suggest another way to shorten the infobox, since the length was getting pretty ridiculous. Thanks! cab 13:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
A very large number of Russians are atheists. I think it would be right to mention this in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.227.3.100 ( talk) 18:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
I think that most of russians are agnostic too, though they're rather unpracticing orthodox. I know that there is a minority of russian muslims. I think this also should be noted in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.218.162.63 ( talk) 01:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The 2001 census of Uzbekistan puts the Russian population at 1,092,000. Is it possible to reduce the figure to 620,000 in 2005?????? [8]
Is there any way to derive the number of ethnic Russians in Israel? The Israeli census lists 291,700 "Others" (non-Jews and non-Arabs), but it is unclear as to how many of these are ethnic Russians (as opposed to other Christian ethnicities). Cossack 14:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one to find it most unusual that there should be a whole separate section in the article describing the Russian diaspora in China? It is, after all, rather insignificant in comparison to the rest. I suggest fully merging it with "Russians outside Russia". User:Humanophage 20:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Tommorow it's a holy day, day of victory on the Nazis, the victory in which Russian played the biggest role, more then everybody together played. M.V.E.i. 13:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC) And first half of WW2 war fight in nazi side. But then Hitler betraied Soviet Union and Molotov - Ribentrop pact.
Both numbers are very inflated. In USA population census everyone who claimed even partial Russian ancestry is recorded as Russian, while many do not consider ancestry as ethnic origin but rather as a place of origin, therefore, many Russian Jews and others with roots from Russia/USSR/Russian Empire claim Russian ancestry.
Brazil only has 4 Russian churches and Russian language is only spoken by a few thousand people and not mention anywhere as a minority language unlike Polish, Italian or German. Obviously there are no 500, 000 ethnic Russians in Brazil. The same is true about Argentina. Fisenko 22:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mongol Invasion led by Batu Khan and his Blue Horde, conquered and ruled Russia for about 250 years. Many cities and towns were destroyed during that time. Why is that today the Russians still look caucasian and the Russian language is still an indo-european language? Didn't the mongol invaders impact the Russian language and ethnicity? Homer33 04:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
If russians look partly mongoloid (and most did), it is becouse of asimilation of eastern finno-ugres not becouse of mongols. Most of Batu Khan army was ethnicaly turkic not mongols. Still, western mongols - kalmiks have influenced russians. For example Lenin was 1/2 kalmik. In russian there are many turkic and finno-ugric words, but all indo-european langues have many non indo-european words. So it is Indo-european langue. 159.148.71.250 06:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I doubt that you should listen to that guy, considering the fact that his ip is from Latvia, and we know how balts feel about Russians. The most asian europeans are the finno-ugric group, which includes finns and estonians. -- GerojiYuga 10:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Lets discuss the image that should be in the top right corner. I think if we go for the eight people then at least one should be a woman, otherwise it is simply ridicoulus. Also there should be somebody before the 19th century. For woman maybe Anna Pavlova (see Commons:Category:Anna Pavlova or Anna Akhmatova? Alex Bakharev 08:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The census talks about Russian citizens, while the article is only about ethnic Russians. Most of the Russian citizens living in the USA, infact, almost all, are Jewish. Ancenstry here means the country the man came from. For exemplem Israeli 106,839. But there aint such a nationality Israely isn't it (they are Jews)? This census is NOT ethnic. M.V.E.i. 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
A lot of jews and ethic groups from the SU, are usually classified as russians by the american society, which has not even the singlets clues about who russians are, what they know about them they learned from anti-soviet cold-war propaganda movies. Their idea is that everything that comes out of Russia, is russian.-- GerojiYuga 10:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry. I seem to be having problems editing the popultion comlumn: I try to put in that 15, 000 ethnic Russians live in Poland, but it won't let me. Could someone please help?
With respect. -- 142.33.185.2 20:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Sergei
Are those figures for actual Moldova, or for separatist republic of Transnistria? Just wandering, because I always knew most Russian people in Moldova lived in Transnistria.
Valeriy.
Summary of this article say: "According to 2002 census, ethnic Russians make up about 80% of the population of Russia [24]." But I could not find this number in reference [24]. Can anyone copy and paste the corresponding segment or provide a better reference? Biophys 15:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic groups: Russian 79.8%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 2%, Bashkir 1.2%, Chuvash 1.1%, other or unspecified 12.1% (2002 census)
Search for "ethnic groups" on the corresponding page. Humanophage 12:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Statistics isn't accurate. Realy most of jews and tatars (becouse of fear of xenophobia) in Russia is counted as russians. In Russia there realy are more than 2% jewish.
<Ethnic Russians known as Great Russians (as oppose to White Russians and Little Russians) began to be recognized as a distinct ethnic group in the 15th century, when they were referred to as Muscovite Russians, during the consolidation of Muscovy Tsardom as a regional power.> Actualy when Ruthenia state joyned Muscovy, tzars started to call themselves great russians nad rusyns (ukrainians) small russians. So many ukrainians believe, that russians stolen they hystorical name.
Is their any chance someone who understands writes a few lines about a few Russian painters who influenced on the world of art alot in the Contribution to humanity section? Thank you. M.V.E.i. 18:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article that obviously violates a neutral point of view should be failed immediately. The section "Contribution to humanity" reads like propaganda; a separate section just to chronicle the positive contributions of ethnic russians is not acceptable. Other very serious issues present in the article include, but are not limited to: the lead section is far too short, there are multiple sections that are completely without inline citations, and the improper formatting of many of the references (just a numbered url is not sufficient to verify the reliability of a source). If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky Talk 18:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone who obviously hates himself and his nation, tries to feel better by constantly vandalizing this page. While people work hard on the article, someone vandalizes it. The user has a variety of IP numbers and nicknames. My request is: Check the history of this page frequently and see what the change which was done is. Also, an administrator might think of doing some long term IP ranges blocks.
Examples:
[9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28].
As you can see this user has many nicknames and IP's, but does the same thing. We were patient to much just reverting him back. I dont care if he feels the nation he came from is small and not important so he vandalizes the Russians page, i dont care if his bored. This must stop. We were quite about it to much. No Free Nickname Left ( talk) 20:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
(Note: someone else brought up the matter above under the section "Failed "good article" nomination")
Russian Literature is considered to be among the most influential literature in the world, sounds very much like propaganda. Considered by whom? Influential in what way?
Tolstoy and Dostoevsky in particular were titanic figures, and have remained internationally renowned, to the point that many scholars have described one or the other as the greatest novelist ever.
Titanic figures sounds like the writer tries to prove they were not merely great authors, but gods. Bad choice of words, and might have been written just to make them shine more than any other great author from any other country. One scholar (referenced) is far from many scholars, which the text asserts.
The information on World War II contains information which is POV and particularly difficult to verify;
A fact which the Russian people are proud of is the large part, larger than anybody elses part..., well, obviously the writer seems to be proud, but is the entire Russian people as proud as h/she is? And far worse, larger than anybody elses part is really a blatant POV. Sounds like the writer likes to downplay every other country involved in the Second World War. It was not only the SU fighting Germany, was it?
It was on the Eastern Front that the war was won or lost, for if the Red Army had not succeeded against all the odds in halting the Germans in 1941 and then inflicting the first major defeats at Stalingrad and Kursk in 1943, it is difficult to see how the western democracies, Britain and the US, could have expelled Germany from its new empire.
Well, one historian may have written this, but to present this particular historian's POV only (and not other historians) is violating WP:NPOV. It seems to have been written just to prove the point larger than anybody elses part..., does it not?
Hope this helps ya all. No need to think I'm anti-Russian here; I love Tchaikovsky and whatever, but the section needs to be rewritten in order to conform to Wikipedia standards. -- Protagon ( talk) 19:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The section contribution to humanity is referenced, so you cant tag "dubious" in a middle of a sentence that gives you references. The Contributaion to humanity section exists also in the English people,Italians and Bulgarians. Jews have an Achievments section, which is pretty much the same. This section was created and edited by many people, and it's just fine the way it is. M.V.E.i., Fisenko, Miyokan and me are just 4 of alot of people who have written it and and belive it's juust fine.
The Culture section is needed, but it needs to be written and expanded. No Free Nickname Left ( talk) 18:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Nope, wrong again, I'm not changing the case. That is precisely the case. You claim you know what peacock terms are, but still you don't see them. Therefore I will spell them out for you, slowly, one by one:
are all peaock terms by pure definition (actually perfect examples which would fit on the very page Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms itself as examples). Simply rewrite them to non-peacock versions, it's as simple as that, and I'll make no fuss. Please, where is your claimed majority or "consensus" which have discussed and suggested these particular wordings? Please show me, it would be interesting to see that previous discussion with other editors. -- Protagon ( talk) 20:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)