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I noticed some back-and-forth changes in the lead paragraph - "committed suicide" --> "died by suicide" --> "committed suicide" ( diff and diff), and a recent change ("committed suicide" --> "died by suicide") in the Death section ( diff).
Three points:
Proposal: I suggest that we keep the current version with regard to these terms ( 05:15 UTC, 12 December 2017) because it represents a compromise in that "committed suicide" is used in the lead paragraph; "died by suicide" is used in the first sentence of the Death section; and a subsequent sentence in the same section uses "committed suicide". - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 04:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
The word 'commit' as a verb is used exclusively for crimes or immoral actions. I'd consider revising this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.98.162 ( talk) 17:03, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
We are an encyclopaedia. We live by facts, not by obfuscation. Anything but "committed suicide" is misleading. HiLo48 ( talk) 01:16, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Changed to "died by suicide" in accordance with the AP style book. Also, too bad if you think it "sounds awkward" to say died by suicide rather than committed suicide. Using such terminology is harmful and irresponsible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.211.110.166 ( talk) 10:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
In my experience (primarily in the U.S.), "died by suicide" is not how people commonly write/speak about it, regardless of what the AP style book might say (recently?). Also, at the top of the Death section, why mention the preliminary report in the first 'graph and then the final report in the second? Surely, these can be combined with something like:
"Died by suicide" is generally preferred by those who have survived the death of someone by suicide. The verb commit does imply *fault* and discredits and dismisses mental illness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.28.125.19 ( talk) 23:49, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
On August 11, 2014, Williams committed suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California. The final autopsy report, released in November 2014, concluded that Williams' death was from "suicide due to asphyxia" (as suspected by the Marin County sheriff’s office on August 12), neither alcohol nor illegal drugs were involved, and prescription drugs present in his body were at "therapeutic" levels.
—[
AlanM1(
talk)]—
22:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to add to the debate - here are the reporting guidelines from The Samaritans, who are a UK-based mental health helpline and charity ( https://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/best-practice-suicide-reporting-tips) - they explicitly mention that "committed" is an inappropriate term, so here in the UK at the very least this language is potentially harmful. I would suggest that "took his own life" might be a good compromise? ( Kimari91 ( talk) 13:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC))
Per our own dear Wikipedia from the Suicide article: “The normal verb in scholarly research and journalism for the act of suicide is commit.[28][29] Some advocacy groups recommend saying completed suicide, took his/her own life, died by suicide, or killed him/herself instead of committed suicide.[30][31][32][33] Opponents of commit argue that it implies that suicide is criminal, sinful, or morally wrong.[34]”
Using anything other than “died by suicide” is irresponsible and frankly, needlessly cruel. An alternat Vevto “committed suicide” exists, is preferred by those most affected by suicide, and is grammatically correct according to the AP style book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.83.158 ( talk) 05:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
As someone who has suffered from suicidal ideation saying “committed” suicide makes it sounds like a crime. I’m from the US and the word commit is usually for a crime. Like I deserve to be punished because of it. My brain is sick and it tricks me into thinking suicide is a good thing. He was sick not a criminal. Why do you need to know how he died by suicide? That’s not necessary information. Sammind ( talk) 17:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
As someone who has also been deeply affected by suicide, committed is a horrible term to use in this situation. Suicidal Ideation in not a choice, it is an illness and dying by suicide is the result of that illness. The term committed implies a choice in this situation. No person "Commits brest cancer" or "Commits a heart attack" and in the eyes of someone who has dealt with suicide I see absolute no difference between suicide and these two examples. No, committed does not always refer to a crime, but it does refer to a choice, and suicide is NOT a choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.242.231 ( talk) 04:16, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The current term used by mental health professionals is "completed suicide." We need to do away with the stigma associated with "commit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C1:8A01:42A0:7DB3:99D3:C685:462F ( talk) 08:35, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry that I made a correction before reading this page, this was my first ever edit and I didn't see the message at first, and also don't know how to delete my edit. Feel free to delete, but I still agree that it should be changed. Testa412 ( talk) 20:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm reading on here that because it "reads better" or "has been written" to read "committed suicide" rather than "died by suicide." That does not constitute a valid reason to ignore best practice and not allow it to be changed to "died by suicide." The language used when discussing death by suicide is actually pretty important for mental health and suicide prevention awareness and advocacy. We should be going with what is considered best practice. MDoodleBop ( talk) 14:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm reading on here that because it "reads better" or "has been written" to read "committed suicide" rather than "died by suicide." That does not constitute a valid reason to ignore best practice and not allow it to be changed to "died by suicide." The language used when discussing death by suicide is actually pretty important for mental health and suicide prevention awareness and advocacy. We should be going with what is considered best practice. MDoodleBop ( talk) 14:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
The last few times I've read about the suicide of a publicly known person (e.g., celebrities, musicians and even religious leaders), I have exclusively seen the phrase "died by suicide" used. My primary print/online news source is NBC, for reference. Also, on the linguistic front, I would argue that "commit" and "commit to" are two wholely different entities in terms of their meaning. Yes, one can "commit TO" any number of positive things (e.g., a marriage, a greater cause), but in the absence of the preposition "commit" appears exclusively tied to negative actions/events. Finally, as someone who has struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past, I think it's high time we commit the phrase "commit suicide" to the pages of history (a positive thing) and be forward thinking about using "died by suicide," as others are already doing. If we can move beyond other terms that are interpreted as pejorative to specific groups of people (whether in terms of gender, ethnicity, interest or whatever else), certainly this case should be no different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B12A:D277:2388:9538:7195:4788 ( talk) 23:40, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Your writing of committed suicide is completely inappropriate. A quick Google search will explain why this is so. You would not say "committed cancer" or "committed heart attack". This is a mental illness that is no different. Twrogers13 ( talk) 11:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I find it odd that people find the word "committed" to be the stigmatizing part of "committed suicide". Words that end in "-icide" are usually negative in meaning or, at the very least, are about killing something that is seen as a negative. If anything, we don't see "suicide" as a negative because we use "committed" as the verb, we use "committed" as the verb because we see it as negative. -- Khajidha ( talk) 02:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
References
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I came here from the
RfC about the "committed suicide" language at the Village pump. The RS say that "committed" suicide is a non-neutral expression. The
WP:NPOV policy cannot be overridden by editor consensus, so we cannot use this term here. There is some misunderstanding in the discussion above over which definition of "commit" applies. An example of a correct definition: "6) To do or perform (especially something reprehensible, wrong, inapt, etc.); perpetrate: as, to commit murder, treason, felony, or trespass; to commit a blunder or a solecism.
[1]
Kolya Butternut (
talk)
23:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
PLOS One study [2]
From the Robin Williams study I was led to another study which expands on this: "In 2001 several U.S. government agencies and health organizations, including the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, the American Association of Suicidology and the Annenberg Public Policy Center, published consensus recommendations for the media reporting of suicide." The up-to-date recommendations are here. The consensus recommendation is to avoid "commit suicide". Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Perpetrate or carry out (a mistake, crime, or immoral act)". [5] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
to carry into action deliberately:PERPETRATE [e.g.] commit a crime, commit a sin" [6] is not clearly neutral. Every lexicographer I've read says that "
The moralistic verb commit is associated with crime (in the justice system) and sin (in religion)". [7] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Once again. Local consensus does not overrule broad community consensus, and this discussion belongs at the RFC. The point of an RFC is to avoid disruption across multiple articles. Alternately, if one wants to argue certain words to avoid, or dictionary items, that would be at WP:WTA (where one can guess the RFC would be referenced). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Perpetrate or carry out (a mistake, crime, or immoral act)
'he committed an uncharacteristic error'
An argument which has received less focus is that the definition of commit alone may be less relevant because "commit suicide" is an idiom...(to continue at the RfC)
|
---|
In that case we must examine the RS and WP:PAG for the idiom. I've found two definitions, Cambridge which states " |
From the recent RfC it sounds like we should use the language of the sources, or simply leave it up to consensus. I am posting these sources for other editors to consider.
High-profile suicides such as these cause copycat suicides; there was a nearly ten-per-cent spike in suicides following Robin Williams’s death. There is always an upswing following such high-profile events. You who are reading this are at statistically increased risk of suicide right now."
Williams...died in August 2014 at age 63 in a suicide...Authorities said he died of asphyxia after hanging himself".
...designer L’Wren Scott committed suicide by hanging...Scott's death came a few months after comedy icon Robin Williams hanged himself with a belt in his home in August 2014...Spade's sister told the Kansas City Star the designer took interest in the details of Williams' suicide."
Approximately two-thirds of the people who died by suicide immediately after the actor’s death used the same method of suicide as Williams."
Popular news media headlines suggest that media guidelines for suicide reporting were not followed in the case of Mr. Williams. For example, media guidelines suggest that explicit description of the suicide method be avoided, as well as speculation on causes or details of site of suicide, especially in headlines [14]; however, on August 12th, 2014, the Washington Post reported “Robin Williams’s death shows the power of depression and the impulsiveness of suicide” [27] and the New York Times reported with the headline “Robin Williams Died by Hanging, Official Says” [28]. Similar headlines can be found across many other population news media sources. A public news conference by the Sheriff assigned to the case detailed the belt that was used in Williams’ death, his body position, and wrist marks, among other details. Thus, substantial evidence suggests that the major US news media outlets tended to deviate from the established suicide reporting guidelines following Williams’ death."
Kolya Butternut ( talk) 15:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited source says and follow their formulation. This will naturally cause us to track whatever trend exists in society.This is a great suggestion, and by it, he's referring to the sources used in the article. As Moxy said above, it's easy to cherry pick. And really, this is taking a tremendous amount of time. Why? What's the benefit here? Wikipedia really isn't a good place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. — UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 19:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
the best idea is to see what the cited source says and follow their formulation. This will naturally cause us to track whatever trend exists in society." I interpret that to refer to whichever sources we decide to cite. Let's revisit this a year from now to avoid discussion fatigue. I will state that I think this article is irresponsible for including "suicide by hanging" in the infobox. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 20:34, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
the suicide of actor Robin Williams" and "
Williams' suicide". This discussion is about using the same language of the sources we choose to cite about Williams' death. Of course I think we should use the consensus recommended sensitive language on suicide reporting regardless of whether it has been shown to prevent suicides, but that's for another discussion. We should be using language based on what the dictionary says the words mean. When a dictionary actually comments on the term "commit suicide", it says it is "moralistic", i.e., non-neutral: "
the most common way to express the idea of taking one’s own life uses the noun suicide in the expressions to commit suicide.... However, the phrase commit suicide is discouraged by major editorial style guides, mental health professionals, and specialists in suicide prevention.... Using such moralistic language...." [14] But we're not here to rehash the RfC. The question is, what words do the best and most recent sources use to describe Williams' death? So far the answer is that they do not use "commit". If you find top-level recent sources which do say "commit", then we can monitor those publications for future reference. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 09:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently, it states: "... Williams committed suicide by hanging.", I suggest applying the term as a verb: "... Williams suicided by hanging." It removes connotations and frankly is less wordy. I understand that using committing suicide does not have a positive or neutral weight [1] Thanks Tortillovsky ( talk) 14:45, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
References
Per Closeapple, I have removed "by hanging" from the lead. [18] Removed cause of death from the infobox. [19] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 12:03, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
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In the death section, can you change, “committed suicide” to “died by suicide”. The term “committed suicide” is outdated and insensitive. The only two things a person commits is a sin or a crime. We don’t say someone committed to cancer when a loved one dies from cancer. So we shouldn’t say someone committed suicide when a loved one dies by suicide. 24.44.242.154 ( talk) 01:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. I disagree with it myself, but there is a clear consensus on this subject on this talk page. —
KuyaBriBri
Talk
03:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)I would suggest that the Showbiz411 ref be deleted, as Showbiz411 is not an RS, per Wikipedia:USERGENERATED and WP:SELFPUB. -- 2603:7000:2143:8500:9908:4467:7D2D:5F71 ( talk) 05:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
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Cause of death for Robin Williams was NOT suicide. Coroner changed ruling after the fact to "Lewy Body Dementia." 2601:2C7:8B00:3EC0:AC03:F3BC:4B05:F35C ( talk) 03:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the following sentence as I believe it's more likely to be false than true:
The first reference is to Reeve's autobiography, which I have in front of me. The cited pages do not support this claim, and I don't recall anything that would support this claim anywhere else in the book. I've read Reeve's second book too and it also doesn't support this claim. The book Somewhere in Heaven, an independent biography on Christopher and Dana Reeve, published after both had died, goes into their financial struggles at length but having recently read the whole thing I don't recall it saying anything about major gifts from Williams. A Biography.com article says, "Williams always denied reports that he'd stepped in to handle Reeve's many bills. However, he did admit to one act of generosity. "We bought Chris a van and a generator," he said in 1999. "One night the generator they had for Chris crapped out, so there was Chris' wife Dana outside in the middle of the night trying to hand-crank the thing."" Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 23:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
References
reeve
was invoked but never defined (see the
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Hello, I'd like to add an entry to the tributes section for a song I wrote in memory of Robin.
TrevorOsborne ( talk) 09:42, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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Could you please change the terminology. The article uses the phrase committed suicide. This is offensive as it is an outdated reference back to the days when suicide was a criminal act (such as committed murder, committed theft etc). A better phrase would be died by suicide or took his own life. 2A02:C7F:9689:6000:9972:F902:6A33:26F7 ( talk) 20:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited sources in each article say and follow their formulation." I assume we should use modern sources, not sources at the time of the suicide which may be dated, does that make sense? I have started looking for modern sources to cite. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 21:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
It makes sense to follow the usage in the most recent high-quality articles. The challenge may be finding them for each biography where there might not be as much modern coverage as historic coverage. This is at best a guideline and not a firm requirement of the close. Jehochman Talk 23:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
there are many sources that still use 'committed suicide' today in reference to Williams' death, more than those that use alternate language", but the evidence does not support that. Do you have another reason to support "committed suicide", or are you basing your decision off of recent sources? Kolya Butternut ( talk) 03:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
key is that what form is free to editors to select, ideally bases on what the RSes say." [35] If the vast majority of sources from 2019 to the present which state how he died do not use "commit suicide", then we should not. We have barely begun to analyze the sources, which we must do to form a proper consensus. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 04:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the wording in the description of the cause of his death. He “died by suicide” - he did not “commit” anything. His illness was not a choice and “commit suicide” implies a crime and is no longer the accepted term by mental health professionals. Please change “committed suicide” to “died by suicide.” Source: I am a psychiatrist (MD). Thank you 66.61.22.237 ( talk) 23:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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the Survivors was a movie in 1983 Robin was in. 2001:569:7668:1300:A96C:E476:FCD2:3424 ( talk) 22:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
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Change committed suicide to died by suicide. This is a more acceptable term that is used in media as well as professional settings. 2603:9001:8D07:5EBE:959C:578A:93C9:3A01 ( talk) 05:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
A twitter post by his daughter Zelda:
https://twitter.com/zeldawilliams/status/997193457834770432
and some other articles on the internet:
https://spikeybits.com/2015/12/the-top-5-celebrities-that-play-warhammer.html
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/zelda-williams-shares-her-dads-40k-collection.html
Confirm Williams was not only a fan of RPG's etc, but of tabletop wargaming. there several stories about him getting other celebrities into Warhammer 40k, such as Kirsten Dunst and Billy Crystal, and apparently there's anecdotal evidence of him and Billy Crystal playing games of 40k and doing hilarious voices for their characters etc while playing.
Think it would be a nice mention for all Warhammer fans, and other tabletop wargamers, that the utter legend Robin Williams was also a big fan of the universe and wargames in general, not just RPG's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kier10101 ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
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SECTION: RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL VIEWS. Add citation to Williams's support of the democratic party. PROOF: https://hollowverse.com/robin-williams/ FellowHistorian ( talk) 23:29, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
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Changed committed suicide to died by suicide. 69.113.66.194 ( talk) 20:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
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"On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams committed suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California"
Please change to indicate that Williams died by suicide 73.17.22.167 ( talk) 02:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the wording to the Robin Williams page to died by suicide rather than committed. It is less hurtful and more of what is generally accepted by journalists now. Committed general is related to a crime and this has not been illegal for some time. 2601:648:8500:8DF0:9C43:133E:FFB2:B6B ( talk) 01:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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Can we change “committed suicide” to “died by suicide”? This is more politically correct. 2607:FEA8:2A9E:3600:413B:5473:45C9:B7 ( talk) 01:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited sources in each article say and follow their formulation." The recent sources which discuss Williams' suicide do not use "committed suicide". We could have an RfC just for this article since it keeps coming up. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 03:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the verbiage in the death section from “committed suicide” to “took his life”. This term is politically incorrect seeing as he did not commit a crime. 2600:1004:B1E2:2BB6:15DD:4B2F:6BB9:3D1B ( talk) 19:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
I noticed some back-and-forth changes in the lead paragraph - "committed suicide" --> "died by suicide" --> "committed suicide" ( diff and diff), and a recent change ("committed suicide" --> "died by suicide") in the Death section ( diff).
Three points:
Proposal: I suggest that we keep the current version with regard to these terms ( 05:15 UTC, 12 December 2017) because it represents a compromise in that "committed suicide" is used in the lead paragraph; "died by suicide" is used in the first sentence of the Death section; and a subsequent sentence in the same section uses "committed suicide". - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 04:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
The word 'commit' as a verb is used exclusively for crimes or immoral actions. I'd consider revising this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.98.162 ( talk) 17:03, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
We are an encyclopaedia. We live by facts, not by obfuscation. Anything but "committed suicide" is misleading. HiLo48 ( talk) 01:16, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Changed to "died by suicide" in accordance with the AP style book. Also, too bad if you think it "sounds awkward" to say died by suicide rather than committed suicide. Using such terminology is harmful and irresponsible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.211.110.166 ( talk) 10:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
In my experience (primarily in the U.S.), "died by suicide" is not how people commonly write/speak about it, regardless of what the AP style book might say (recently?). Also, at the top of the Death section, why mention the preliminary report in the first 'graph and then the final report in the second? Surely, these can be combined with something like:
"Died by suicide" is generally preferred by those who have survived the death of someone by suicide. The verb commit does imply *fault* and discredits and dismisses mental illness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.28.125.19 ( talk) 23:49, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
On August 11, 2014, Williams committed suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California. The final autopsy report, released in November 2014, concluded that Williams' death was from "suicide due to asphyxia" (as suspected by the Marin County sheriff’s office on August 12), neither alcohol nor illegal drugs were involved, and prescription drugs present in his body were at "therapeutic" levels.
—[
AlanM1(
talk)]—
22:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to add to the debate - here are the reporting guidelines from The Samaritans, who are a UK-based mental health helpline and charity ( https://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/best-practice-suicide-reporting-tips) - they explicitly mention that "committed" is an inappropriate term, so here in the UK at the very least this language is potentially harmful. I would suggest that "took his own life" might be a good compromise? ( Kimari91 ( talk) 13:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC))
Per our own dear Wikipedia from the Suicide article: “The normal verb in scholarly research and journalism for the act of suicide is commit.[28][29] Some advocacy groups recommend saying completed suicide, took his/her own life, died by suicide, or killed him/herself instead of committed suicide.[30][31][32][33] Opponents of commit argue that it implies that suicide is criminal, sinful, or morally wrong.[34]”
Using anything other than “died by suicide” is irresponsible and frankly, needlessly cruel. An alternat Vevto “committed suicide” exists, is preferred by those most affected by suicide, and is grammatically correct according to the AP style book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.83.158 ( talk) 05:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
As someone who has suffered from suicidal ideation saying “committed” suicide makes it sounds like a crime. I’m from the US and the word commit is usually for a crime. Like I deserve to be punished because of it. My brain is sick and it tricks me into thinking suicide is a good thing. He was sick not a criminal. Why do you need to know how he died by suicide? That’s not necessary information. Sammind ( talk) 17:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
As someone who has also been deeply affected by suicide, committed is a horrible term to use in this situation. Suicidal Ideation in not a choice, it is an illness and dying by suicide is the result of that illness. The term committed implies a choice in this situation. No person "Commits brest cancer" or "Commits a heart attack" and in the eyes of someone who has dealt with suicide I see absolute no difference between suicide and these two examples. No, committed does not always refer to a crime, but it does refer to a choice, and suicide is NOT a choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.242.231 ( talk) 04:16, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The current term used by mental health professionals is "completed suicide." We need to do away with the stigma associated with "commit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C1:8A01:42A0:7DB3:99D3:C685:462F ( talk) 08:35, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry that I made a correction before reading this page, this was my first ever edit and I didn't see the message at first, and also don't know how to delete my edit. Feel free to delete, but I still agree that it should be changed. Testa412 ( talk) 20:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm reading on here that because it "reads better" or "has been written" to read "committed suicide" rather than "died by suicide." That does not constitute a valid reason to ignore best practice and not allow it to be changed to "died by suicide." The language used when discussing death by suicide is actually pretty important for mental health and suicide prevention awareness and advocacy. We should be going with what is considered best practice. MDoodleBop ( talk) 14:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm reading on here that because it "reads better" or "has been written" to read "committed suicide" rather than "died by suicide." That does not constitute a valid reason to ignore best practice and not allow it to be changed to "died by suicide." The language used when discussing death by suicide is actually pretty important for mental health and suicide prevention awareness and advocacy. We should be going with what is considered best practice. MDoodleBop ( talk) 14:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
The last few times I've read about the suicide of a publicly known person (e.g., celebrities, musicians and even religious leaders), I have exclusively seen the phrase "died by suicide" used. My primary print/online news source is NBC, for reference. Also, on the linguistic front, I would argue that "commit" and "commit to" are two wholely different entities in terms of their meaning. Yes, one can "commit TO" any number of positive things (e.g., a marriage, a greater cause), but in the absence of the preposition "commit" appears exclusively tied to negative actions/events. Finally, as someone who has struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past, I think it's high time we commit the phrase "commit suicide" to the pages of history (a positive thing) and be forward thinking about using "died by suicide," as others are already doing. If we can move beyond other terms that are interpreted as pejorative to specific groups of people (whether in terms of gender, ethnicity, interest or whatever else), certainly this case should be no different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B12A:D277:2388:9538:7195:4788 ( talk) 23:40, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Your writing of committed suicide is completely inappropriate. A quick Google search will explain why this is so. You would not say "committed cancer" or "committed heart attack". This is a mental illness that is no different. Twrogers13 ( talk) 11:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I find it odd that people find the word "committed" to be the stigmatizing part of "committed suicide". Words that end in "-icide" are usually negative in meaning or, at the very least, are about killing something that is seen as a negative. If anything, we don't see "suicide" as a negative because we use "committed" as the verb, we use "committed" as the verb because we see it as negative. -- Khajidha ( talk) 02:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
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I came here from the
RfC about the "committed suicide" language at the Village pump. The RS say that "committed" suicide is a non-neutral expression. The
WP:NPOV policy cannot be overridden by editor consensus, so we cannot use this term here. There is some misunderstanding in the discussion above over which definition of "commit" applies. An example of a correct definition: "6) To do or perform (especially something reprehensible, wrong, inapt, etc.); perpetrate: as, to commit murder, treason, felony, or trespass; to commit a blunder or a solecism.
[1]
Kolya Butternut (
talk)
23:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
PLOS One study [2]
From the Robin Williams study I was led to another study which expands on this: "In 2001 several U.S. government agencies and health organizations, including the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, the American Association of Suicidology and the Annenberg Public Policy Center, published consensus recommendations for the media reporting of suicide." The up-to-date recommendations are here. The consensus recommendation is to avoid "commit suicide". Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Perpetrate or carry out (a mistake, crime, or immoral act)". [5] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
to carry into action deliberately:PERPETRATE [e.g.] commit a crime, commit a sin" [6] is not clearly neutral. Every lexicographer I've read says that "
The moralistic verb commit is associated with crime (in the justice system) and sin (in religion)". [7] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 05:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Once again. Local consensus does not overrule broad community consensus, and this discussion belongs at the RFC. The point of an RFC is to avoid disruption across multiple articles. Alternately, if one wants to argue certain words to avoid, or dictionary items, that would be at WP:WTA (where one can guess the RFC would be referenced). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Perpetrate or carry out (a mistake, crime, or immoral act)
'he committed an uncharacteristic error'
An argument which has received less focus is that the definition of commit alone may be less relevant because "commit suicide" is an idiom...(to continue at the RfC)
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In that case we must examine the RS and WP:PAG for the idiom. I've found two definitions, Cambridge which states " |
From the recent RfC it sounds like we should use the language of the sources, or simply leave it up to consensus. I am posting these sources for other editors to consider.
High-profile suicides such as these cause copycat suicides; there was a nearly ten-per-cent spike in suicides following Robin Williams’s death. There is always an upswing following such high-profile events. You who are reading this are at statistically increased risk of suicide right now."
Williams...died in August 2014 at age 63 in a suicide...Authorities said he died of asphyxia after hanging himself".
...designer L’Wren Scott committed suicide by hanging...Scott's death came a few months after comedy icon Robin Williams hanged himself with a belt in his home in August 2014...Spade's sister told the Kansas City Star the designer took interest in the details of Williams' suicide."
Approximately two-thirds of the people who died by suicide immediately after the actor’s death used the same method of suicide as Williams."
Popular news media headlines suggest that media guidelines for suicide reporting were not followed in the case of Mr. Williams. For example, media guidelines suggest that explicit description of the suicide method be avoided, as well as speculation on causes or details of site of suicide, especially in headlines [14]; however, on August 12th, 2014, the Washington Post reported “Robin Williams’s death shows the power of depression and the impulsiveness of suicide” [27] and the New York Times reported with the headline “Robin Williams Died by Hanging, Official Says” [28]. Similar headlines can be found across many other population news media sources. A public news conference by the Sheriff assigned to the case detailed the belt that was used in Williams’ death, his body position, and wrist marks, among other details. Thus, substantial evidence suggests that the major US news media outlets tended to deviate from the established suicide reporting guidelines following Williams’ death."
Kolya Butternut ( talk) 15:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited source says and follow their formulation. This will naturally cause us to track whatever trend exists in society.This is a great suggestion, and by it, he's referring to the sources used in the article. As Moxy said above, it's easy to cherry pick. And really, this is taking a tremendous amount of time. Why? What's the benefit here? Wikipedia really isn't a good place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. — UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 19:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
the best idea is to see what the cited source says and follow their formulation. This will naturally cause us to track whatever trend exists in society." I interpret that to refer to whichever sources we decide to cite. Let's revisit this a year from now to avoid discussion fatigue. I will state that I think this article is irresponsible for including "suicide by hanging" in the infobox. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 20:34, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
the suicide of actor Robin Williams" and "
Williams' suicide". This discussion is about using the same language of the sources we choose to cite about Williams' death. Of course I think we should use the consensus recommended sensitive language on suicide reporting regardless of whether it has been shown to prevent suicides, but that's for another discussion. We should be using language based on what the dictionary says the words mean. When a dictionary actually comments on the term "commit suicide", it says it is "moralistic", i.e., non-neutral: "
the most common way to express the idea of taking one’s own life uses the noun suicide in the expressions to commit suicide.... However, the phrase commit suicide is discouraged by major editorial style guides, mental health professionals, and specialists in suicide prevention.... Using such moralistic language...." [14] But we're not here to rehash the RfC. The question is, what words do the best and most recent sources use to describe Williams' death? So far the answer is that they do not use "commit". If you find top-level recent sources which do say "commit", then we can monitor those publications for future reference. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 09:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Currently, it states: "... Williams committed suicide by hanging.", I suggest applying the term as a verb: "... Williams suicided by hanging." It removes connotations and frankly is less wordy. I understand that using committing suicide does not have a positive or neutral weight [1] Thanks Tortillovsky ( talk) 14:45, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
References
Per Closeapple, I have removed "by hanging" from the lead. [18] Removed cause of death from the infobox. [19] Kolya Butternut ( talk) 12:03, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
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In the death section, can you change, “committed suicide” to “died by suicide”. The term “committed suicide” is outdated and insensitive. The only two things a person commits is a sin or a crime. We don’t say someone committed to cancer when a loved one dies from cancer. So we shouldn’t say someone committed suicide when a loved one dies by suicide. 24.44.242.154 ( talk) 01:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
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template. I disagree with it myself, but there is a clear consensus on this subject on this talk page. —
KuyaBriBri
Talk
03:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)I would suggest that the Showbiz411 ref be deleted, as Showbiz411 is not an RS, per Wikipedia:USERGENERATED and WP:SELFPUB. -- 2603:7000:2143:8500:9908:4467:7D2D:5F71 ( talk) 05:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
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Cause of death for Robin Williams was NOT suicide. Coroner changed ruling after the fact to "Lewy Body Dementia." 2601:2C7:8B00:3EC0:AC03:F3BC:4B05:F35C ( talk) 03:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the following sentence as I believe it's more likely to be false than true:
The first reference is to Reeve's autobiography, which I have in front of me. The cited pages do not support this claim, and I don't recall anything that would support this claim anywhere else in the book. I've read Reeve's second book too and it also doesn't support this claim. The book Somewhere in Heaven, an independent biography on Christopher and Dana Reeve, published after both had died, goes into their financial struggles at length but having recently read the whole thing I don't recall it saying anything about major gifts from Williams. A Biography.com article says, "Williams always denied reports that he'd stepped in to handle Reeve's many bills. However, he did admit to one act of generosity. "We bought Chris a van and a generator," he said in 1999. "One night the generator they had for Chris crapped out, so there was Chris' wife Dana outside in the middle of the night trying to hand-crank the thing."" Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 23:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
References
reeve
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Hello, I'd like to add an entry to the tributes section for a song I wrote in memory of Robin.
TrevorOsborne ( talk) 09:42, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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Could you please change the terminology. The article uses the phrase committed suicide. This is offensive as it is an outdated reference back to the days when suicide was a criminal act (such as committed murder, committed theft etc). A better phrase would be died by suicide or took his own life. 2A02:C7F:9689:6000:9972:F902:6A33:26F7 ( talk) 20:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited sources in each article say and follow their formulation." I assume we should use modern sources, not sources at the time of the suicide which may be dated, does that make sense? I have started looking for modern sources to cite. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 21:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
It makes sense to follow the usage in the most recent high-quality articles. The challenge may be finding them for each biography where there might not be as much modern coverage as historic coverage. This is at best a guideline and not a firm requirement of the close. Jehochman Talk 23:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
there are many sources that still use 'committed suicide' today in reference to Williams' death, more than those that use alternate language", but the evidence does not support that. Do you have another reason to support "committed suicide", or are you basing your decision off of recent sources? Kolya Butternut ( talk) 03:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
key is that what form is free to editors to select, ideally bases on what the RSes say." [35] If the vast majority of sources from 2019 to the present which state how he died do not use "commit suicide", then we should not. We have barely begun to analyze the sources, which we must do to form a proper consensus. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 04:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the wording in the description of the cause of his death. He “died by suicide” - he did not “commit” anything. His illness was not a choice and “commit suicide” implies a crime and is no longer the accepted term by mental health professionals. Please change “committed suicide” to “died by suicide.” Source: I am a psychiatrist (MD). Thank you 66.61.22.237 ( talk) 23:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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the Survivors was a movie in 1983 Robin was in. 2001:569:7668:1300:A96C:E476:FCD2:3424 ( talk) 22:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
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Change committed suicide to died by suicide. This is a more acceptable term that is used in media as well as professional settings. 2603:9001:8D07:5EBE:959C:578A:93C9:3A01 ( talk) 05:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
A twitter post by his daughter Zelda:
https://twitter.com/zeldawilliams/status/997193457834770432
and some other articles on the internet:
https://spikeybits.com/2015/12/the-top-5-celebrities-that-play-warhammer.html
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/zelda-williams-shares-her-dads-40k-collection.html
Confirm Williams was not only a fan of RPG's etc, but of tabletop wargaming. there several stories about him getting other celebrities into Warhammer 40k, such as Kirsten Dunst and Billy Crystal, and apparently there's anecdotal evidence of him and Billy Crystal playing games of 40k and doing hilarious voices for their characters etc while playing.
Think it would be a nice mention for all Warhammer fans, and other tabletop wargamers, that the utter legend Robin Williams was also a big fan of the universe and wargames in general, not just RPG's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kier10101 ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
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SECTION: RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL VIEWS. Add citation to Williams's support of the democratic party. PROOF: https://hollowverse.com/robin-williams/ FellowHistorian ( talk) 23:29, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
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Changed committed suicide to died by suicide. 69.113.66.194 ( talk) 20:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
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"On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams committed suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California"
Please change to indicate that Williams died by suicide 73.17.22.167 ( talk) 02:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the wording to the Robin Williams page to died by suicide rather than committed. It is less hurtful and more of what is generally accepted by journalists now. Committed general is related to a crime and this has not been illegal for some time. 2601:648:8500:8DF0:9C43:133E:FFB2:B6B ( talk) 01:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
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Can we change “committed suicide” to “died by suicide”? This is more politically correct. 2607:FEA8:2A9E:3600:413B:5473:45C9:B7 ( talk) 01:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited sources in each article say and follow their formulation." The recent sources which discuss Williams' suicide do not use "committed suicide". We could have an RfC just for this article since it keeps coming up. Kolya Butternut ( talk) 03:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
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Please change the verbiage in the death section from “committed suicide” to “took his life”. This term is politically incorrect seeing as he did not commit a crime. 2600:1004:B1E2:2BB6:15DD:4B2F:6BB9:3D1B ( talk) 19:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)