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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
![]() | On 23 November 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from RB Butcher to River Butcher. The result of the discussion was moved. |
We can honor Butcher's wishes for not using "she", "her", "hers" as pronoun referrals without going against standard English grammar which we should be using per our manual of style. It is less awkward and still mostly conformant to the MOS to avoid pronouns completely by rewriting then having awkward reading non-standard grammar in an encyclopedia article. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 04:17, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
See also MOS:GENDERID "Avoid confusing constructions by rewriting". Non-standard grammar is confusing to read and if it can be rewritten to avoid it, it should. If the only issue is pronoun usage we can avoid the issue completely by rewording places where it is an issue. "They are" to refer to a single person is jarring and wrong no matter the reason. "They is" is also jarring and wrong so don't do either. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 15:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
River uses he/him pronouns primarily now. Please be sure to reflect this if you are editing the article further. I updated the article already tk make this change in the existing article. Fingerguncowgirl ( talk) 21:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 9 December 2021. The result of the move review was overturn and relist. |
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 04:55, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
RB Butcher → River Butcher – Butcher reported on 11/23/21 on Twitter that they have changed their first name to River. Title of page needs to be changed to reflect that. 2601:204:102:6140:2017:A142:30B:C91C ( talk) 18:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 04:22, 1 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath ( talk) 23:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
Why do we need a secondary source in this particular instance? Acting as if our primary source of information,(River themself) is somehow not a reliable source on the subject of changing his own name is ridiculous, but instead of acknowledging this fact, we're all just waiting around, and twiddling our thumbs on this subject, hoping that he'll be featured in an article unrelated to their name-change that references said name change, even though that's going to take a lot longer than you seem to think, this just seems like an attempt to delay the inevitable, which would be to just acknowledge that he's changed his name and following this changing the title to match this information, it seems to me that waiting to do such a thing is a humongous waste of time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A212:3B00:6CA5:1BF6:A960:96A0 ( talk) 01:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Here’s an article from the LA Times, where he is mentioned and it’s unrelated to River’s coming out. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2021-12-06/dave-chappelle-netflix-is-a-joke-comedy-festival — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A212:3B00:184E:639E:9913:C1D1 ( talk) 04:51, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
not clearwhether a former name is a deadname or not, we should always err on the side of caution (as required by WP:BLP for living people such as Butcher) and use the subject's current name. (It is also worth noting that, in MOS:DEADNAME, the terms
former nameand
deadnameare currently used interchangeably.) GreenComputer ( talk) 13:35, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted this edit. There seems no reason to remove this information. Andrewa ( talk) 23:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
![]() | On 23 November 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from RB Butcher to River Butcher. The result of the discussion was moved. |
We can honor Butcher's wishes for not using "she", "her", "hers" as pronoun referrals without going against standard English grammar which we should be using per our manual of style. It is less awkward and still mostly conformant to the MOS to avoid pronouns completely by rewriting then having awkward reading non-standard grammar in an encyclopedia article. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 04:17, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
See also MOS:GENDERID "Avoid confusing constructions by rewriting". Non-standard grammar is confusing to read and if it can be rewritten to avoid it, it should. If the only issue is pronoun usage we can avoid the issue completely by rewording places where it is an issue. "They are" to refer to a single person is jarring and wrong no matter the reason. "They is" is also jarring and wrong so don't do either. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 15:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
River uses he/him pronouns primarily now. Please be sure to reflect this if you are editing the article further. I updated the article already tk make this change in the existing article. Fingerguncowgirl ( talk) 21:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 9 December 2021. The result of the move review was overturn and relist. |
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 04:55, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
RB Butcher → River Butcher – Butcher reported on 11/23/21 on Twitter that they have changed their first name to River. Title of page needs to be changed to reflect that. 2601:204:102:6140:2017:A142:30B:C91C ( talk) 18:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 04:22, 1 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath ( talk) 23:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
Why do we need a secondary source in this particular instance? Acting as if our primary source of information,(River themself) is somehow not a reliable source on the subject of changing his own name is ridiculous, but instead of acknowledging this fact, we're all just waiting around, and twiddling our thumbs on this subject, hoping that he'll be featured in an article unrelated to their name-change that references said name change, even though that's going to take a lot longer than you seem to think, this just seems like an attempt to delay the inevitable, which would be to just acknowledge that he's changed his name and following this changing the title to match this information, it seems to me that waiting to do such a thing is a humongous waste of time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A212:3B00:6CA5:1BF6:A960:96A0 ( talk) 01:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Here’s an article from the LA Times, where he is mentioned and it’s unrelated to River’s coming out. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2021-12-06/dave-chappelle-netflix-is-a-joke-comedy-festival — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A212:3B00:184E:639E:9913:C1D1 ( talk) 04:51, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
not clearwhether a former name is a deadname or not, we should always err on the side of caution (as required by WP:BLP for living people such as Butcher) and use the subject's current name. (It is also worth noting that, in MOS:DEADNAME, the terms
former nameand
deadnameare currently used interchangeably.) GreenComputer ( talk) 13:35, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted this edit. There seems no reason to remove this information. Andrewa ( talk) 23:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)