This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
On April 11, Archive 9 was created. This was an attempt to reduce the amount of reading necessary for people coming to the page new. However, it is suggested that anyone with time to spend, or anyone who wants to become deeply invloved in the article, read archive 9, if not some of the other archives too. It is also suggested that the comments are read first, in order to understand the poll's context. Robdurbar 16:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
Given ongoing discussions above and recent edit warring, the following poll is to decide the current rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Namely, there is contention regarding the appellation "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" and the degree to which it should be emphasised in this overview article.
Two renditions are primarily in contention. The first, in place for some two months before recent events, contains a note regarding the above appellation; while the second explicitly indicates the appellation in the first paragraph with details. With both versions, the topic is expatiated with an article section specifically dealing with the topic and further in the country's foreign relations subarticle.
Through approval voting in this poll, Wikipedians can assert support for one or more options and should indicate their choice by simply signing with four tildes (~~~~), followed by an optional one sentence explanation. Wikipedians may also propose variants. Opposing votes will be disallowed, as will be votes from users who have registered on or after 1 March 2006 or those posted by anonymous IPs. This is not a poll/vote about retitling/moving the article nor about mitigating the current article's content; if necessary, those can stem from decisions resulting from this poll. Any Wikipedian who votes below accepts the conditions herein and votes not recorded are effectively abstentions.
Voting will continue to 30 April 2006 23:59 UTC, but may be extended beyond that if any option does not garner a clear consensus or plurality of support.
Thanks for your co-operation! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll unprotect the article if we're agreed that it makes sense to do so. Did you intend to wait until the 'crat opines on the poll? Jkelly 16:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we should wait for the opinion. Apart from the clear plurality of option #2, there seem to exist more issues that stem from the faulty design of this poll:
Please bear my scepticism, I think we must not open the can of WP:BEANS just yet [sic]. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's have a look at option #2 again, which clearly prevailed:
The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. As the result of a naming dispute with Greece, it has also adopted the term Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as a formal title.
Some very constructive comments have been made from both sides during this month, which I believe need somehow to be reflected in the final phrasing. Namely, the verb "adopted" has to be changed with "accepted", the word former has to be written with a lower case f, the expression "or simply Macedonia" is poorly written and should be either omitted or rephrased (e.g. "sometimes referred to as Macedonia"). -- Avg 19:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Which rendition do you prefer for the introduction to the Wp Republic of Macedonia article?
Excuse me for putting this up front, but I have been asked by E Pluribus Anthony to look at this and try to see if there is a consensus that can be determined from the voting and opinions this far. It would seem that a number of editors may be waiting on my response, so I want you to know I'm working on it. I believe I am aware of the basic dispute involved and understand why this is a difficult issue. I will attempt to frame an opinion only on the poll; i.e., not inject my personal evaluation. Will get back to you all shortly. Cheers, Cecropia 03:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I read through the various options and looked at combinations and I believe a consensus has not yet been reached as to any one particular option. There were so many possibilities, that I think what would be best would be to first nail down what all seem to agree on. In fact I think we should put it to a vote, and I'm going to cast it that way. I ran this on a spreadsheet ( see here--check that I transcribed the options correctly as of ~0400 UTC) using standard weighting methods, out of which I came to the following conclusions:
If we can agree with these findings, we can move on to the specific wording. Please either agree or reject and don't add additional options so we can begin the next (hopefully final) stage. Cheers, Cecropia 06:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The above reasoning (and the subpage) was posted yesterday and there still is no feedback for the rationale behind it. I really tried to continue this logic in order to answer all questions, but the whole thing was extremely complicated and I had to make many arbitrary assumptions, that could lead me to false or inaccurate results of the poll. The main reason for that, was that there were 158 votes by the same 89 users. So each user voted for an average of 1.77 times, most of which, (for all other issues apart from the inclusion of the fYRoM term and its spellout) were contradicting! There were many users who voted for virtually all options except Option #1, to illustrate their disagreement in excluding the FYROM term from the intro. Avg above is right that this was the exact reason for the poll, as it was also the exact reason of the recent edit war (please check article history and my comments requesting this poll ( here, here and here to verify).
Examples of contradicting votes:
I was very tempted to vote "Agree" above, but with all those contradicting votes, the only safe conclusion is Cecropia's first conclusion (fYRoM and spellout in the intro). I will refrain from voting for now, in order to give time to Cecropia and the four first editors that agreed with all three conclusions to re-evaluate their position, given the above facts. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Aldux, apparently this was just Cecropia's opinion, which was elaborated by Avg. I too agree that an appellation by a single country (mine) is not as significant reason for it to enter in the intro of the article. Now for Cecropia's opinion, I guess that we must all understand that (strong feelings aside), I am sure there are plenty of editors in print encyclopedias (and there are -see Encarta) who would use one of the following versions:
...or others who would use:
...but both of these would be their opinion not backed up by any scary math. To quote Cecropia: "I will attempt to frame an opinion only on the poll; i.e., not inject my personal evaluation." The above priority of names, however, is Cecropia's interpretation, so please remove the math theory behind it (to which I started as a fan)! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Vote below:
Vote below:
please indicate and categorise below; copy and render in a fashion similar to options 1/2:
Vote below:
Vote below:
Vote below:
Vote below:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. Due to the naming dispute with Greece, it is also formally referred to as former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in some contexts.
Vote below:
Vote below:
please indicate and categorise below; copy and render in a fashion similar to options 1/2:
Option #n: [[proposed version]]
Vote below:
I'm ok with option 1 or option 2. However, it seems that the main difference between options 2 and 3 hinges on whether the following statement is truthful:
So has the nation, in fact, adopted that as a formal title? If so, I'd probably vote for option 2. But it doesn't make sense to put options 2 and 3 up for voting when the difference is clearly of a factual nature. Also, option 3's phrasing of "might be formally referred [to] as" is awkwardly passive, and would be better stated as "many nations refer to it as". -- Yath 03:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to refrain from voting here because I think there are better options. Few comments though:
-- Aleksandar Šušnjar 15:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Most of the options above, and a great many comments, are just factually wrong. We keep hearing the U.N. adopted a a name for this country, or even that this country agreed in its admission to the U.N. to be named such and so. Please read carefully the actual U.N. resolution. Here it is:
Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations
The General Assembly,
Having received the recommendation of the Security Council of 7 April 1993 that the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 should be admitted to membership in the United Nations,
Having considered the application for membership contained in document A/47/876-S/25147,
Decides to admit the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.
Note how careful the resolution is to avoid naming the country at all. It is certainly not imposing some new name on the country but introducing a phrase so diplomats can refer to the country without naming it. The article section on the naming dispute was crafted carefully to reflect this. The wording that has been repeatedly pushed into the lead, and the wording in the protected version now, is just factually wrong. Jonathunder 17:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the country formally use the term FYROM itself? If not, I propose changing the term "adopted" to "accepted" - since it has accepted others to use it, but doesn't actively use it itself. Aucaman Talk 18:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked a very simple question. Does the Republic of Macedonia use the term FYROM itself? If yes, provide some evidence. If no, then it's incorrect to say the country has "adopted" the name. You can say the name is used by the UN, EU, and NATO, but that's not the same as saying the country has adopted the name.
Aucaman
Talk 19:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
As Nikosilver stated above, this poll doesn't present the options very well. We are trying to find the most acceptable combination of several binary questions, and it would be better to vote on each of those options, and then combine the results into the opening paragraph. For example, each of the following options could be followed by support/oppose votes:
It may be, as stated above, that the current plethora of options are slanted to one or the other of the camps here (divided over whether the most prominent name is FYROM). But the poll is bad enough without that. I am going to abstain. This poll should be discarded and a new one started. -- Yath 18:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the way I see it is not a matter of nationalism, although it may be for some people. There are clearly two regions called Macedonia, which is the subject of the dispuate, so it might be better if the dablink at the top was accomodated for this. Something like:
This might be undue weight (I don't know how important this issue really is) but it does clear up the confusion very simply. It avoids stating anything outright, merely arouses the curiousity of the reader to learn more about the issue.
This dablink is meant to replace the sentence "Formally known as FYROM", which may be too much of an emphasis in the intro. -- infinity 0 19:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how important that name is. Is it the official name, such as "People's Republic of China"? If only some organisations use it, then it probably shouldn't go in the intro. The article says the name is losing usage. -- infinity 0 19:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
After reading the whole discussion and seen the users' comments i found some things worth commenting:
This poll is wholly legitimate, no more or less so than other options noted, and is precisely what Wikipedians make of it. Approval voting is a common voting method in Wp that entails selective – even strategic – voting by (hopefully) informed Wikipedians to identify one or few options that are workable. With fewer options, a consensus may result; with more options, the one that garners a clear plurality ("first-past-the-post") prevails. Moreover, to provide focus and limit extraneous assumptions/digressions (e.g., picking the article apart, which is a function of normal editing), the poll is limited to the issue of the incipient debate: the rendition of 'FYROM' (or not) in this article's introduction. Specific examples – the ones of primary contention – are provided for clear decision-making. During the poll, Wikipedians propose options at their own advantage or peril and others vote on them (or not); throughout, discussion occurs and, arguably, ad nauseum.
Conditions of the poll are clearly indicated upfront. This poll was reviewed by at least four Wikipedians beforehand, involved and not in this debate. Since its inception, more than a dozen Wikipedians have provided worthwhile input and – even now (without making premature judgements) – Option #2 seems to be garnering a clear plurality. And once the poll is concluded, I will have a neutral Wp bureaucrat review the results (note I've had prior experience in conducting similar votes in Wp; details available upon request). Perhaps Wikipedians should be more judicious in commenting or in proposing/choosing options that fundamentally differ little from ones presented (i.e., those who propose said options split the vote and are making their own bed); given this, Wikipedians should reconsider or even recant their support of a plethora of options in favour of few. In any event, I see little reason to forego progress to date just because some have chosen to let discussions run amok and the poll is now not fully to their liking. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
This Poll is ridiculous. Nine choices? You've got to be kidding me. One option can win with 12% of the vote. That's concensus? In any case, here's my 2-cents: the only reason half the world has even heard about Macedonia or ROM or FYROM or fYROM or TheartistformerlyknownasPrince is because of this naming controversy. Not including its UN name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in the first paragraph would be ignoring the single most interesting thing about the country.-- DaveOinSF 20:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to also express some concern about this "polling as solution" approach. It seems to me to be setting the cart before the horse. Ideally, we should write a brilliant encyclopedic article about our subject, and the WP:LEAD should be a concise summary of that article. I am especially concerned about the idea that a vote could be understood as some sort of indefinite editorially-binding prohibition against mentioning the common alternate names for the subject of an article in the lead. Feel free to interpret my response as support for option number two, and, further, it can be assumed that I support any edit of User:ChrisO's in the future if this situation comes up again.
I'd also like to ask contributors here, once again, to reduce the amount of speculation about other editor's motives and the labelling of other editor's suspected political views. It isn't helpful. Jkelly 22:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Some months ago we were told that the terms Slavomacedonians or Macedonian Slavs are offensive terms (yet they are used in .mk in "not offensive" contexts). Now we are told by Jonathunder that "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is not a name, but "Republic of Macedonia" is a name. And we have a poll on whether the long name and the fYRoM will be mentioned. What will be next? AfD the redirects like FYROM and former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia? Why some things that are basic WP procedure in other articles (like using a redirect and then having a bot disambiguating it to the "correct" article) should be so difficult in Balkanian articles? talk to +MATIA 06:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, the Improvement Drive template should only be in the talk page, and not be on the article page. Could somebody fix that? -- GunnarRene 11:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe the following is a good depiction of what actually is going on:
FYROM POV--------------------NPOV--------------------Greek POV Name 1: "Republic of Macedonia"----------------------------------------| Name 2: |-----------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |--------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje" Current debate: |------area of debate------|-------------------------|
So you can see above, while fyromians are unshaken in their position, Greeks have already shifted from their position for the sake of compromise, and they are only supporting the NPOV! So the whole debate is whether this article will have a pinch of objectivity or will be 100% fyromian POV! This is where we are.-- Avg 15:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
|-NM POV-------M POV------NPOV------G POV-----NG POV-------UNG POV---------| Name 1: |------"Republic of Macedonia"---------------------------------------------| Name 2: |---------------------------------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate------|-------------------------| NM: Nationalist Macedonian (incl. Ultra-nationalist Macedonians) M: Macedonian G: Greek NG: Nationalist Greek UNG: Ultra-nationalist Greek
You so almost had it right!!! I hope this clears it up. Non-nationalist Greeks don't care either way. Nationalist Macedonians are fearsomely pro-"Republic of Macedonia", as are Ultra-nationalist Macedonians. Nationalist Greeks want to interfere with what another group of people calls their country, and Ultra-nationalist Greeks want to do it in a more offensive manner! The NPOV is to call them what they call themselves. Sorry chaps, I couldn't resist, your fruity little diagram made me laugh! -
FrancisTyers 17:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Francis, I couldn't help myself adding ontop of your diagram, the ones that use those names:
|--------The Republic--------|---UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD---|----Greek Govt-----| |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------| |-NM POV-------M POV------NPOV------G POV-----NG POV-------UNG POV---------| Name 1: |------"Republic of Macedonia"---------------------------------------------| Name 2: |---------------------------------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate------|-------------------------| NM: Nationalist Macedonian (incl. Ultra-nationalist Macedonians) M: Macedonian G: Greek NG: Nationalist Greek UNG: Ultra-nationalist Greek
Now please compare the first three lines of the sketch. That would mean, according to your sketch, the following:
Maybe you should think it over and redraw it. Please check my userpage to see a userbox that describes what most Greeks would call a very moderate approach, that borders with treason. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 18:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, I fell into my own trap. My comments are stricken. - FrancisTyers 21:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Why can there not simply be a poll on whether the first word you read on the page is FYROM or Republic of Macedonia. Is that not logical? Then we can go into specifics later when we have agreed the basics. The Poll is convoluted with slightly different options, some meaningless. The Poll is over analytical, cryptic and confused - almost as if the confusion was created so no serious change can take place. Reaper7 21:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
You can't know that. After the breakup of Yugoslavia and the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, thery just couldn't ignore Greek Macedonia (51% of the Macedonian region). They used symbols from Greek Macedonia, such as the White Tower of Thessaloniki and the Vergina Sun, they published maps showing the Republic of Macedonia annexing large chunks of land from Greece and Bulgaria extending rights down to the Aegean Sea and in their first constitution, they had written something about a "union" of Macedonians abroad. Greece, out of precaution for territorial integrity, imposed an economic blockade and in 1995 it was agreed that the flag and symbols would be changed and the offending (what Greece saw as land claims) were removed and the temporary name FYROM was devised until the whole thing could be solved. What Greece wants is security for its northern provinces and to maintain its territorial integrity. While FYROM has renounced all claims to Greece and Bulgaria, annexing the whole region still remains part of their nationalist mythology and they believe that they have some right to it. The fact that these regions are predominantly populated by Greeks and Bulgarians does not seem to be an obstacle. To answer your other question, no, Romania has not sought to change the name of the Republic of Moldova. They have gone much further than that; they have sought to annex it!
IIRC. It is written into their constitution. "Taking into account the Balkan circumstances, the Republic of Macedonia wrote into its contitution that it has no territorial claims toward any of its neighbours.", thats from Topolinjska 1998 that I cited above, but I'll have a look for a corroborating reference. - FrancisTyers 12:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA Amendment I 1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighbouring state. 2. The borders of the Republic of Macedonia can only be changed in accordance with the Constitution and on the principle of free will, as well in accordance with generally accepted international norms. 3. Clause 1. of this Amendment is an Addendum to Article 3 of the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. Clause 2. replaces Paragraph 3 of the same Article.
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
I've attempted to archive some of this to keep the content down. I know much of the archived content might be seen as important by some but this talk page was srupidly long and unreadable. There was far too much for a newbie to the discussion to be expected to read. Robdurbar 16:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have the information (and maps) on the 1st and 2nd level of administrative division for Macedonia. Would it be possible to add this? Thank you Rarelibra 18:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
|----(internally)----The Republic----(externally)*---| |----(externally)---Greek Govt--(internally)--| |--UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD--| |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------| Name 1: |----"Republic of Macedonia"-----------------------------------------------| Name 2: |----------------------------------------"FYROM"---------------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate----------|---------------------| *Except strictly bilateral relations of the country with those (many) countries that have recognised its constitutional name.
How can anyone not agree with this or disagree and sleep well at night? Reaper7 02:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the sketch above does not:
What the sketch does:
One more note: The sketch could have been drawn as a PIE, without extremes in either side. This, I leave to your imagination. That's all. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
I've created a related disputes page, because discussion on this page should relate directly to the article and it has been drifting. I have been part of the problem in this, so now I'm trying to be part of the solution. Hopefully this will make the page less susceptible to filling up like a <insert euphemism here> - FrancisTyers 08:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Notice to all editors and voters
Two subpages have been created:
According to the content of the first of the two pages, the article should be renamed as " Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" under the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline.
An exact copy of the rationale in the first sub-page has been copied into the second, so that we can edit our comments right below each point. Please feel free to post your comments on the second page ( Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position), without altering the content of the first sub-page.
NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The key problem with the above disscusion is that it is pretending that formal names are actually common names. Just as the article Greece is not titled Hellenic Republic, the actual common name in my locality (Midwestern US) is Macedonia. I can't say that I have used it alot but when a new neighbor said her family immigrated from Macedonia I knew without question she was talking of the country north of Greece. That was 5 years ago and I got to know her well enough before she moved away to be sure that it was what she meant. Mainly because it was around the time My Big Fat Greek Wedding came out and she said her family was very much like that even though they were not Greek. I never even knew there was all this controversy about the name. I realize that is way too controversial to move the article to Macedonia, and I am not suggesting that at all. However it is silly to pretend that FYROM is the common English name. In fact if someone had said that to me before I discoved Wikipedia I would have no idea what they were talking about. I realize from reading the disscusion here that some people will react to my expierence by saying it proof of the corruption caused by propaganda or something similar. I want to answer that by saying that it does not matter why people in the Midwest of the US recognize Macedonia as refering to the country north of Greece. It does not matter what people should think Macedonia refers, what matters is the reality of the situation right now. Wikipedia is not a place to change peoples' minds or to counter others' claims. The only goal should be to inform people of the full situation.
I realize this discussion is particurly about the title of the article. Please look at the Macedonia disambig page. I truly believe if I came across that page before I heard about this whole dispute, I would not understand that FYROM was meant to be the modern nation. I probably would have thought it was some region embroiled in a civil war without a working goverment with enough control to pickout a real name. Think of how Somalia is now where no group controls any large portion of the country. That is the impression I think most uninformed English speakers would get. The "Republic of" designation is a common enough form that people who have only heard of the country as simply "Macedonia" can figure it out. The same is not true for FYROM. We need to be aware of how people will be looking this article up and strive to focus on ease of use rather than what anyone may believe is "more correct." This is especially true in a case like this where "correctness" is disputed.-- Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 15:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
What do you think? Would you find it hard to understand that these regard the country too? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
(excerpt from the guideline):
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Where a name includes geographical directions such as North, East, South or West (in a local language), the full name should be translated into English: hence East Timor, not Timor-Leste; South Ossetia, not Yuzhnaya Osetiya; West Java, not Jawa Barat.
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.
This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.
Ha, ha! Indeed, if we rename the article to FYROM you can still include Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia within the article, as the policy clearly states! I am sure that the Japanese vs Nihon-jin example shows you that we are obliged to use the most common name in English! In the sub-pages:
this is very clearly illustrated. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
FlavrSavr we had the exact same discussion before right below option #4 of this poll. Although I didn't want to include ChrisO without him being present, and this is why I erased my comments about him, I have to remind you that he took the initiative and rewrote the guideline without consulting no one. And still, your logic is still flawed. Let's completely forget all the subjective criteria that the policy mentions. It is no "prescription" to refer to this country as fYRoM. This name is currently used by them OFFICIALLY. They use RoM ONLY internally and in bilateral relations. This fact is uncontested. They agreed to the usage of fYRoM, specifically for all references within an international context, because NO international organisation recognises any other name. Wikipedia represents such an international context. And (I suggest you read this very carefully) fYRoM has explicitly agreed that their final name should be reached after deliberations with Greece"Henceforth the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has formally accepted that the name of its State is an issue for negotiation as provided for in UN Security Council Resolution 817 (1993). ". Moreover, by the three criteria balance table, fYRoM is a clear choice.-- Avg 22:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The difference between an identifying and a self-identifying name. Republic of Macedonia is the official self-identifying name of this entity, as defined by its constitution. Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia isn't. If you're looking for similar parallels try Republic of China - Taiwan - Chinese Taipei. Avg, I'm not intending to explain you the difference between an identifying name and a self-identifying name, again. Also, I'm not interested in your link, I'm well acquainted with the positions of the Greek Ministry of External Affairs - I'll provide you with the original UN resolution, instead:
A/47/876-S/25147,
A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Note: provisionally referred to. Others refer to it as fYROM. The failure to comprehend that is a failure to understand the concept of self-identifying. As for the UN practice - check Modi's explanation here. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conflict, part one - Self-identifying terms. Niko, your argumentation is peculiar. In your opinion, article titles lay somewhere outside the article? Or in other words, Wikipedia can be prescriptive in article titles. So, let's rename it to FYROM and use RoM everywhere within articles? That makes zero sense, no? I hope that the (de facto) author of this policy, ChrisO will find the time to explain this guideline's implications. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conflict, part two - Most common names. It's quite obvious how this guideline deals with this type of conflicts - see "Dealing with self-identifying terms". Therefore, there is basically no need for searching the most common names. We are not obliged to use the most common name (although it's quite important) - see Republic of China and Taiwan. However, as some native English speakers here noted - FYROM is not the most common name for this state, and Niko, I doubt that your Google tests will prove the contrary. It's quite obvious that news outlets, encyclopedias, geographical name servers prove that "Macedonia" is the most common term. And then again, your Google test is simply wrong. You've excluded so much terms that even a basic country fact such as "Macedonia borders Bulgaria" cannot be considered a valid indicator that Macedonia is, in fact, the most common name for this country. You even say that Unfortunately, Google does not allow for more than 32 words in its search, so there may be even more necessary exclusions. Damn Google! -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyways, I've conducted an another search - including:
and excluding .mk domain hits.-- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that other unnecessary exclusions are made as well (Niko admits that These exclusions, do not show the results for all those sites that use BOTH names (like the WP article).), those three inclusions, and one exclusion render 63 million hits. Contrary to your claims - the vast majority of the hits refer to the modern Republic of Macedonia. And if you like Google that much - check how Google itself refers to this country at the Google directory. Damn Google! -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
And again, for further comment I suggest the usage of
because this page will again become a byte-eater.-- Avg 03:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Give up guys, the name of this article is never going to be "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or any permutation thereof. You're just wasting time, bandwidth and bytes. - FrancisTyers 09:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
vs
The Bulgarian capital Sofia was a minor town but it was chosen as the capital of the emerging Bulgarian state because it is at the centre of the territories where Bulgarians are the dominant ethnicity. Sofia is situated between Bulgaria's religious capital in Ochrid and its cultural capital in Veliko Turnovo. The government in Sofia has recognised that Western Bulgaria is called, Republic of Macedonia and that it is an independent Bulgarian region. The new republic takes its name from its southern area that belongs to the region of Macedonia and streches between Bitola and Lake Doiran. The area north of that line is Vardar Bulgaria. The area west of Skopje and north of Struga are not Bugarian but traditionally have been Albanian. No problem. Makedonija 12:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
EGIPETSKATA KRALICA KLEOPATRA BILA ETNI^KA MAKEDONKA
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/aug00/kleopatra.htm
Most citizens of ROM/FYROM do not speak the language of the Macedonians, they speak a fine and 'axioprepi' Slavic language. 'Alexander' said, "'Ανδρες Αθηναίοι [...] αυτός τε γάρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τωρχαίον..." = "Men of Athens [...] had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Greek by descent..." (Herodotus, Histories IX). He never said, 'jas sum Grcki' or 'jas sum Makedonski', just 'Ellin genos eimi'. So relax everybody, one day those new 'ethnic Macedonians' who claim the ancient Macedonians for their ancestors, will probably learn the known language of those 'ancestors'. Then, everyone will continue as one happy family in two independent states. Nothing will change that, even if ROM/FYROM becomes simply ROM. Politis 12:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Noone denies the Greek history. They are making this whole fuss themselves. Pretensions towards Greece? Gimme a break... Some of them are so... xenophobic... Bomac 14:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Just like I said - some of the Greeks are so xenophobic... can't we leave the past and see the future? The Balkan history is a bit of a complex one, which involves all countries and regions in it. And please, don't try to ,,excuse" yourself with these comments, 'caus they are reaction of the other ,,side's" posts and messages. We need the whole picture. Bomac 16:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
And - if Greece didn't made this mess 'round the name, none of this would happen. Bomac 16:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Some of them. According to my personal opinion, Alexander was (Ancient) Macedonian, who, taught by Aristotle, was spreading the Hellenistic culture into the lands he conquerred.
Note: ,,Hellenistic" doesn't mean's that he was actually a Greek. It means that he, influenced by Aristotle (and the Greek language, which, in that time, was something like the English today + the Greek, very develloped culture in those periods), simply, was ,,civilizing" other eastern cultures with the help of the most (already) develloped culture and language in that time.
Note: I don't claim that only Slavs absorbed some features from the Ancient Macedonians, but Greeks and others in this region. Bomac 16:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking 'bout? I didn't mentioned genes. How did that happen genes to interfere? Gee. Bomac 17:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, OK, calm down... Bomac 17:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear friends, according to UN resolutioin 817 [8]and [9], the UN received the Republic of Macedonia on 7 April 1993 under the name, ‘Former Yugolav Republic of Macedonia’… Question: is it ‘nationalistic' to point this out? No, it is fact. Politis 14:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course, no one can argue otherwise. But there is nothing exeptional about this; UN resolutions are dominated by the initiatives of single countries. Politis 14:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, it depends. Some members of the Greek government were against any use of the word 'Macedonia'. Others compromised and argued for, Nova Makedonija (Nea Makedonia, New Macedonia, Nouvelle Macedoine, etc...). I think the political climate up to 1993 was ripe in Skopje and UN for the acceptance of that term; unfortunately, Athens lacked vision. Personally, I like it because it contains the term 'Macedonia' and it includes a disabiguation in 'New' (as in Nouvelle Caledonie, New York, Nea Smyrni...). But... here we are my friend trying to square the circle. Politis 14:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the UN counts for nothing on wiki, only nationalism. Also it is noted FYROM denies Greek/world knowledge of ancient history inorder to insert their own nation in the strange void created. The title of the page should be FYROM and there should be a simple two option vote on this. Reaper7 15:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Your complaints can be forwarded to Kofi Annan! In the meantime, it's not our business (as wikipedians) to discuss if it is a mistake or not. We must just use the standard appellation in all UN, EU, etc lists of members. Otherwise we are really "putting words in UN's mouth", and we wouldn't do that even if we disagreed. Would we? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You are missing the point Francis. I was talking about LISTS of MEMBERS. RTF Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position in the objective criteria point #6 about international organizations to see examples of how many lists are twisted here! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 18:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Arguing that it's actual name is FYROM because the UN et al so call it not a valid point. The CIA Factbook lays it out rather nicely:
FYROM is a provisional and non-permanent designation. Either mention neither or both, but if we introduce one, it should just be "Depending on contexts, it can be formally referred to as FYROM and colloquially as M". If they want to know the difference, they can read on. I think an even BETTER example than China for the naming problem is Galicia. Which is it? Iberian or Easter European? Both names come from a Celtic tradition. Neither article mentions the naming issue until several paragraphs into the article. Since users havea already been through a disamimbiguation page, there is no reason to mention "the naming dispute with greece", it can be assumed and infered, and if it can't, it can be read later on in the article. Guifa 01:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move, not surprisingly. Once Macedonia and Greece settle their naming conflict, maybe we too can finally settle this naming conflict... — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 18:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone compares the situation of FYROM naming dispute with other UN names not in use. The truth is there is currently no other situation that comes even close to comparison with the dispute between Greece and FYROM - so comparisons are futile and desperate by those wanting the page called Macedoinia. However I have noticed many here saying, it is what FYROM sees it self as that counts, not what Greece or the UN, EU, NATO ect want. Therefore it is strange whenever I speak to a Palestinian and they all believe their country to be called Palestine, why then when I type the name Palestine into Wiki do I get the UN/ Isreali explanation of their country and not their explanation of their occupied country. It seems that for this page of Macedonia the World Bodies are ignored including Greece as having got it wrong, LOL, but for the Palestine page the world bodies are taken into huge account and the page does not revolve around what the Palestinians see as their occupied state. Reaper7 14:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I was shocked that after typing Macedonia in the Wikipedia search box, I wasn't automatically redirected to the Republic of Macedonia page. There should be an automatic redirect, or at least put Republic of Macedonia as the term number 1, and not 2.
A huge part of Macedonia was given to Greece by world powers after WWII. Almost no Greeks ever lived there. The "Greek" Macedonia has only been a part of Macedonia for these 60 years, I think the Republic of Macedonia represents Macedonia better than the region given to Greece.
Its fact, not opinion, that the Greeks don't even want to give Macedonia the right to use their ancient name, so that Macedonia won't ask for their territories back. Macedonia is the land of Macedonians, it has always been like that, just because they lost a part of their territory, you can't erase history. MACEDONIA SHOULD REDIRECT TO REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, and then put "Macedonia redirects here, for other uses...". It's the right thing to do. -- serbiana - talk 22:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
You have just posted exactly the same thing above serbiana, someone delete this, we are not stupid, we read it and ignored it the first time. Reaper7 17:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
You fyrom guys are getting funnier by the day.-- Avg 18:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
That is User:Bormalagurski who goes by night under Serbiana. Miskin 20:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting (it depends how autonomous though - Wales style autonomy or Serbia and Montenegro style autonomy). I wonder what would happen if Bulgaria decided to grant full autonomy to the Blagoevgrad Oblast under the name Pirin Macedonia (or, Serbia or Albania decided to grant autonomy to their portions (they're only a couple of villages in reality) of Macedonia under the names Serbian or Albanian Macedonia). Telex 22:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Like present discussions and arguments and polls and what not are not sufficient, we'll have four times as much. Good times :) FunkyFly 22:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
At the Eurovision Song Contest it would be trickier. There would be a:
How would the ignorant outsiders tell them apart and know who to vote for (they may get them mixed up and vote for the Republika e Maqedonisë when they liked the song of the Република Македония)? Telex 23:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh my, you cheeky chaps. a site from Bulgaria, publishing an essay by an American linguist working for the Bulgarian International Institute for Macedonia. My, their scholarship is top rate! Saying that, he makes some valid points, although also some errors of judgement:
And the point of my essay:
In all, its a shame he didn't cover the standardisation of Macedonian within the overall context of the greater standardisation process of all the Balkan Slavic languages. He also neglected to mention the Bulgarian occupation and subsequent "compulsion" of Bulgarian. All in all a fairly average, although very partisan essay. Perhaps he is a famous linguist, I don't know, but these guys do make mistakes, you should see my essay slating Larry Trask. In fact, it is a shame that I didn't see this during my research, he would have made my essay even better — in terms of argumentation. - FrancisTyers 00:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
On April 11, Archive 9 was created. This was an attempt to reduce the amount of reading necessary for people coming to the page new. However, it is suggested that anyone with time to spend, or anyone who wants to become deeply invloved in the article, read archive 9, if not some of the other archives too. It is also suggested that the comments are read first, in order to understand the poll's context. Robdurbar 16:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
Given ongoing discussions above and recent edit warring, the following poll is to decide the current rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Namely, there is contention regarding the appellation "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" and the degree to which it should be emphasised in this overview article.
Two renditions are primarily in contention. The first, in place for some two months before recent events, contains a note regarding the above appellation; while the second explicitly indicates the appellation in the first paragraph with details. With both versions, the topic is expatiated with an article section specifically dealing with the topic and further in the country's foreign relations subarticle.
Through approval voting in this poll, Wikipedians can assert support for one or more options and should indicate their choice by simply signing with four tildes (~~~~), followed by an optional one sentence explanation. Wikipedians may also propose variants. Opposing votes will be disallowed, as will be votes from users who have registered on or after 1 March 2006 or those posted by anonymous IPs. This is not a poll/vote about retitling/moving the article nor about mitigating the current article's content; if necessary, those can stem from decisions resulting from this poll. Any Wikipedian who votes below accepts the conditions herein and votes not recorded are effectively abstentions.
Voting will continue to 30 April 2006 23:59 UTC, but may be extended beyond that if any option does not garner a clear consensus or plurality of support.
Thanks for your co-operation! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll unprotect the article if we're agreed that it makes sense to do so. Did you intend to wait until the 'crat opines on the poll? Jkelly 16:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we should wait for the opinion. Apart from the clear plurality of option #2, there seem to exist more issues that stem from the faulty design of this poll:
Please bear my scepticism, I think we must not open the can of WP:BEANS just yet [sic]. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's have a look at option #2 again, which clearly prevailed:
The Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. As the result of a naming dispute with Greece, it has also adopted the term Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as a formal title.
Some very constructive comments have been made from both sides during this month, which I believe need somehow to be reflected in the final phrasing. Namely, the verb "adopted" has to be changed with "accepted", the word former has to be written with a lower case f, the expression "or simply Macedonia" is poorly written and should be either omitted or rephrased (e.g. "sometimes referred to as Macedonia"). -- Avg 19:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Which rendition do you prefer for the introduction to the Wp Republic of Macedonia article?
Excuse me for putting this up front, but I have been asked by E Pluribus Anthony to look at this and try to see if there is a consensus that can be determined from the voting and opinions this far. It would seem that a number of editors may be waiting on my response, so I want you to know I'm working on it. I believe I am aware of the basic dispute involved and understand why this is a difficult issue. I will attempt to frame an opinion only on the poll; i.e., not inject my personal evaluation. Will get back to you all shortly. Cheers, Cecropia 03:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I read through the various options and looked at combinations and I believe a consensus has not yet been reached as to any one particular option. There were so many possibilities, that I think what would be best would be to first nail down what all seem to agree on. In fact I think we should put it to a vote, and I'm going to cast it that way. I ran this on a spreadsheet ( see here--check that I transcribed the options correctly as of ~0400 UTC) using standard weighting methods, out of which I came to the following conclusions:
If we can agree with these findings, we can move on to the specific wording. Please either agree or reject and don't add additional options so we can begin the next (hopefully final) stage. Cheers, Cecropia 06:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The above reasoning (and the subpage) was posted yesterday and there still is no feedback for the rationale behind it. I really tried to continue this logic in order to answer all questions, but the whole thing was extremely complicated and I had to make many arbitrary assumptions, that could lead me to false or inaccurate results of the poll. The main reason for that, was that there were 158 votes by the same 89 users. So each user voted for an average of 1.77 times, most of which, (for all other issues apart from the inclusion of the fYRoM term and its spellout) were contradicting! There were many users who voted for virtually all options except Option #1, to illustrate their disagreement in excluding the FYROM term from the intro. Avg above is right that this was the exact reason for the poll, as it was also the exact reason of the recent edit war (please check article history and my comments requesting this poll ( here, here and here to verify).
Examples of contradicting votes:
I was very tempted to vote "Agree" above, but with all those contradicting votes, the only safe conclusion is Cecropia's first conclusion (fYRoM and spellout in the intro). I will refrain from voting for now, in order to give time to Cecropia and the four first editors that agreed with all three conclusions to re-evaluate their position, given the above facts. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Aldux, apparently this was just Cecropia's opinion, which was elaborated by Avg. I too agree that an appellation by a single country (mine) is not as significant reason for it to enter in the intro of the article. Now for Cecropia's opinion, I guess that we must all understand that (strong feelings aside), I am sure there are plenty of editors in print encyclopedias (and there are -see Encarta) who would use one of the following versions:
...or others who would use:
...but both of these would be their opinion not backed up by any scary math. To quote Cecropia: "I will attempt to frame an opinion only on the poll; i.e., not inject my personal evaluation." The above priority of names, however, is Cecropia's interpretation, so please remove the math theory behind it (to which I started as a fan)! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Vote below:
Vote below:
please indicate and categorise below; copy and render in a fashion similar to options 1/2:
Vote below:
Vote below:
Vote below:
Vote below:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија), or simply Macedonia, is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east. Due to the naming dispute with Greece, it is also formally referred to as former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in some contexts.
Vote below:
Vote below:
please indicate and categorise below; copy and render in a fashion similar to options 1/2:
Option #n: [[proposed version]]
Vote below:
I'm ok with option 1 or option 2. However, it seems that the main difference between options 2 and 3 hinges on whether the following statement is truthful:
So has the nation, in fact, adopted that as a formal title? If so, I'd probably vote for option 2. But it doesn't make sense to put options 2 and 3 up for voting when the difference is clearly of a factual nature. Also, option 3's phrasing of "might be formally referred [to] as" is awkwardly passive, and would be better stated as "many nations refer to it as". -- Yath 03:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to refrain from voting here because I think there are better options. Few comments though:
-- Aleksandar Šušnjar 15:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Most of the options above, and a great many comments, are just factually wrong. We keep hearing the U.N. adopted a a name for this country, or even that this country agreed in its admission to the U.N. to be named such and so. Please read carefully the actual U.N. resolution. Here it is:
Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations
The General Assembly,
Having received the recommendation of the Security Council of 7 April 1993 that the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 should be admitted to membership in the United Nations,
Having considered the application for membership contained in document A/47/876-S/25147,
Decides to admit the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.
Note how careful the resolution is to avoid naming the country at all. It is certainly not imposing some new name on the country but introducing a phrase so diplomats can refer to the country without naming it. The article section on the naming dispute was crafted carefully to reflect this. The wording that has been repeatedly pushed into the lead, and the wording in the protected version now, is just factually wrong. Jonathunder 17:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the country formally use the term FYROM itself? If not, I propose changing the term "adopted" to "accepted" - since it has accepted others to use it, but doesn't actively use it itself. Aucaman Talk 18:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked a very simple question. Does the Republic of Macedonia use the term FYROM itself? If yes, provide some evidence. If no, then it's incorrect to say the country has "adopted" the name. You can say the name is used by the UN, EU, and NATO, but that's not the same as saying the country has adopted the name.
Aucaman
Talk 19:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
As Nikosilver stated above, this poll doesn't present the options very well. We are trying to find the most acceptable combination of several binary questions, and it would be better to vote on each of those options, and then combine the results into the opening paragraph. For example, each of the following options could be followed by support/oppose votes:
It may be, as stated above, that the current plethora of options are slanted to one or the other of the camps here (divided over whether the most prominent name is FYROM). But the poll is bad enough without that. I am going to abstain. This poll should be discarded and a new one started. -- Yath 18:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the way I see it is not a matter of nationalism, although it may be for some people. There are clearly two regions called Macedonia, which is the subject of the dispuate, so it might be better if the dablink at the top was accomodated for this. Something like:
This might be undue weight (I don't know how important this issue really is) but it does clear up the confusion very simply. It avoids stating anything outright, merely arouses the curiousity of the reader to learn more about the issue.
This dablink is meant to replace the sentence "Formally known as FYROM", which may be too much of an emphasis in the intro. -- infinity 0 19:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how important that name is. Is it the official name, such as "People's Republic of China"? If only some organisations use it, then it probably shouldn't go in the intro. The article says the name is losing usage. -- infinity 0 19:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
After reading the whole discussion and seen the users' comments i found some things worth commenting:
This poll is wholly legitimate, no more or less so than other options noted, and is precisely what Wikipedians make of it. Approval voting is a common voting method in Wp that entails selective – even strategic – voting by (hopefully) informed Wikipedians to identify one or few options that are workable. With fewer options, a consensus may result; with more options, the one that garners a clear plurality ("first-past-the-post") prevails. Moreover, to provide focus and limit extraneous assumptions/digressions (e.g., picking the article apart, which is a function of normal editing), the poll is limited to the issue of the incipient debate: the rendition of 'FYROM' (or not) in this article's introduction. Specific examples – the ones of primary contention – are provided for clear decision-making. During the poll, Wikipedians propose options at their own advantage or peril and others vote on them (or not); throughout, discussion occurs and, arguably, ad nauseum.
Conditions of the poll are clearly indicated upfront. This poll was reviewed by at least four Wikipedians beforehand, involved and not in this debate. Since its inception, more than a dozen Wikipedians have provided worthwhile input and – even now (without making premature judgements) – Option #2 seems to be garnering a clear plurality. And once the poll is concluded, I will have a neutral Wp bureaucrat review the results (note I've had prior experience in conducting similar votes in Wp; details available upon request). Perhaps Wikipedians should be more judicious in commenting or in proposing/choosing options that fundamentally differ little from ones presented (i.e., those who propose said options split the vote and are making their own bed); given this, Wikipedians should reconsider or even recant their support of a plethora of options in favour of few. In any event, I see little reason to forego progress to date just because some have chosen to let discussions run amok and the poll is now not fully to their liking. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
This Poll is ridiculous. Nine choices? You've got to be kidding me. One option can win with 12% of the vote. That's concensus? In any case, here's my 2-cents: the only reason half the world has even heard about Macedonia or ROM or FYROM or fYROM or TheartistformerlyknownasPrince is because of this naming controversy. Not including its UN name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in the first paragraph would be ignoring the single most interesting thing about the country.-- DaveOinSF 20:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to also express some concern about this "polling as solution" approach. It seems to me to be setting the cart before the horse. Ideally, we should write a brilliant encyclopedic article about our subject, and the WP:LEAD should be a concise summary of that article. I am especially concerned about the idea that a vote could be understood as some sort of indefinite editorially-binding prohibition against mentioning the common alternate names for the subject of an article in the lead. Feel free to interpret my response as support for option number two, and, further, it can be assumed that I support any edit of User:ChrisO's in the future if this situation comes up again.
I'd also like to ask contributors here, once again, to reduce the amount of speculation about other editor's motives and the labelling of other editor's suspected political views. It isn't helpful. Jkelly 22:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Some months ago we were told that the terms Slavomacedonians or Macedonian Slavs are offensive terms (yet they are used in .mk in "not offensive" contexts). Now we are told by Jonathunder that "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is not a name, but "Republic of Macedonia" is a name. And we have a poll on whether the long name and the fYRoM will be mentioned. What will be next? AfD the redirects like FYROM and former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia? Why some things that are basic WP procedure in other articles (like using a redirect and then having a bot disambiguating it to the "correct" article) should be so difficult in Balkanian articles? talk to +MATIA 06:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, the Improvement Drive template should only be in the talk page, and not be on the article page. Could somebody fix that? -- GunnarRene 11:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe the following is a good depiction of what actually is going on:
FYROM POV--------------------NPOV--------------------Greek POV Name 1: "Republic of Macedonia"----------------------------------------| Name 2: |-----------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |--------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje" Current debate: |------area of debate------|-------------------------|
So you can see above, while fyromians are unshaken in their position, Greeks have already shifted from their position for the sake of compromise, and they are only supporting the NPOV! So the whole debate is whether this article will have a pinch of objectivity or will be 100% fyromian POV! This is where we are.-- Avg 15:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
|-NM POV-------M POV------NPOV------G POV-----NG POV-------UNG POV---------| Name 1: |------"Republic of Macedonia"---------------------------------------------| Name 2: |---------------------------------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate------|-------------------------| NM: Nationalist Macedonian (incl. Ultra-nationalist Macedonians) M: Macedonian G: Greek NG: Nationalist Greek UNG: Ultra-nationalist Greek
You so almost had it right!!! I hope this clears it up. Non-nationalist Greeks don't care either way. Nationalist Macedonians are fearsomely pro-"Republic of Macedonia", as are Ultra-nationalist Macedonians. Nationalist Greeks want to interfere with what another group of people calls their country, and Ultra-nationalist Greeks want to do it in a more offensive manner! The NPOV is to call them what they call themselves. Sorry chaps, I couldn't resist, your fruity little diagram made me laugh! -
FrancisTyers 17:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Francis, I couldn't help myself adding ontop of your diagram, the ones that use those names:
|--------The Republic--------|---UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD---|----Greek Govt-----| |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------| |-NM POV-------M POV------NPOV------G POV-----NG POV-------UNG POV---------| Name 1: |------"Republic of Macedonia"---------------------------------------------| Name 2: |---------------------------------------------"FYROM"----------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate------|-------------------------| NM: Nationalist Macedonian (incl. Ultra-nationalist Macedonians) M: Macedonian G: Greek NG: Nationalist Greek UNG: Ultra-nationalist Greek
Now please compare the first three lines of the sketch. That would mean, according to your sketch, the following:
Maybe you should think it over and redraw it. Please check my userpage to see a userbox that describes what most Greeks would call a very moderate approach, that borders with treason. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 18:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, I fell into my own trap. My comments are stricken. - FrancisTyers 21:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Why can there not simply be a poll on whether the first word you read on the page is FYROM or Republic of Macedonia. Is that not logical? Then we can go into specifics later when we have agreed the basics. The Poll is convoluted with slightly different options, some meaningless. The Poll is over analytical, cryptic and confused - almost as if the confusion was created so no serious change can take place. Reaper7 21:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
You can't know that. After the breakup of Yugoslavia and the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, thery just couldn't ignore Greek Macedonia (51% of the Macedonian region). They used symbols from Greek Macedonia, such as the White Tower of Thessaloniki and the Vergina Sun, they published maps showing the Republic of Macedonia annexing large chunks of land from Greece and Bulgaria extending rights down to the Aegean Sea and in their first constitution, they had written something about a "union" of Macedonians abroad. Greece, out of precaution for territorial integrity, imposed an economic blockade and in 1995 it was agreed that the flag and symbols would be changed and the offending (what Greece saw as land claims) were removed and the temporary name FYROM was devised until the whole thing could be solved. What Greece wants is security for its northern provinces and to maintain its territorial integrity. While FYROM has renounced all claims to Greece and Bulgaria, annexing the whole region still remains part of their nationalist mythology and they believe that they have some right to it. The fact that these regions are predominantly populated by Greeks and Bulgarians does not seem to be an obstacle. To answer your other question, no, Romania has not sought to change the name of the Republic of Moldova. They have gone much further than that; they have sought to annex it!
IIRC. It is written into their constitution. "Taking into account the Balkan circumstances, the Republic of Macedonia wrote into its contitution that it has no territorial claims toward any of its neighbours.", thats from Topolinjska 1998 that I cited above, but I'll have a look for a corroborating reference. - FrancisTyers 12:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA Amendment I 1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighbouring state. 2. The borders of the Republic of Macedonia can only be changed in accordance with the Constitution and on the principle of free will, as well in accordance with generally accepted international norms. 3. Clause 1. of this Amendment is an Addendum to Article 3 of the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. Clause 2. replaces Paragraph 3 of the same Article.
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
I've attempted to archive some of this to keep the content down. I know much of the archived content might be seen as important by some but this talk page was srupidly long and unreadable. There was far too much for a newbie to the discussion to be expected to read. Robdurbar 16:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have the information (and maps) on the 1st and 2nd level of administrative division for Macedonia. Would it be possible to add this? Thank you Rarelibra 18:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
|----(internally)----The Republic----(externally)*---| |----(externally)---Greek Govt--(internally)--| |--UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD--| |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------| Name 1: |----"Republic of Macedonia"-----------------------------------------------| Name 2: |----------------------------------------"FYROM"---------------------------| Name 3: |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate----------|---------------------| *Except strictly bilateral relations of the country with those (many) countries that have recognised its constitutional name.
How can anyone not agree with this or disagree and sleep well at night? Reaper7 02:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the sketch above does not:
What the sketch does:
One more note: The sketch could have been drawn as a PIE, without extremes in either side. This, I leave to your imagination. That's all. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
[section moved to related disputes page. - FrancisTyers 08:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]
I've created a related disputes page, because discussion on this page should relate directly to the article and it has been drifting. I have been part of the problem in this, so now I'm trying to be part of the solution. Hopefully this will make the page less susceptible to filling up like a <insert euphemism here> - FrancisTyers 08:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Notice to all editors and voters
Two subpages have been created:
According to the content of the first of the two pages, the article should be renamed as " Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" under the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline.
An exact copy of the rationale in the first sub-page has been copied into the second, so that we can edit our comments right below each point. Please feel free to post your comments on the second page ( Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position), without altering the content of the first sub-page.
NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The key problem with the above disscusion is that it is pretending that formal names are actually common names. Just as the article Greece is not titled Hellenic Republic, the actual common name in my locality (Midwestern US) is Macedonia. I can't say that I have used it alot but when a new neighbor said her family immigrated from Macedonia I knew without question she was talking of the country north of Greece. That was 5 years ago and I got to know her well enough before she moved away to be sure that it was what she meant. Mainly because it was around the time My Big Fat Greek Wedding came out and she said her family was very much like that even though they were not Greek. I never even knew there was all this controversy about the name. I realize that is way too controversial to move the article to Macedonia, and I am not suggesting that at all. However it is silly to pretend that FYROM is the common English name. In fact if someone had said that to me before I discoved Wikipedia I would have no idea what they were talking about. I realize from reading the disscusion here that some people will react to my expierence by saying it proof of the corruption caused by propaganda or something similar. I want to answer that by saying that it does not matter why people in the Midwest of the US recognize Macedonia as refering to the country north of Greece. It does not matter what people should think Macedonia refers, what matters is the reality of the situation right now. Wikipedia is not a place to change peoples' minds or to counter others' claims. The only goal should be to inform people of the full situation.
I realize this discussion is particurly about the title of the article. Please look at the Macedonia disambig page. I truly believe if I came across that page before I heard about this whole dispute, I would not understand that FYROM was meant to be the modern nation. I probably would have thought it was some region embroiled in a civil war without a working goverment with enough control to pickout a real name. Think of how Somalia is now where no group controls any large portion of the country. That is the impression I think most uninformed English speakers would get. The "Republic of" designation is a common enough form that people who have only heard of the country as simply "Macedonia" can figure it out. The same is not true for FYROM. We need to be aware of how people will be looking this article up and strive to focus on ease of use rather than what anyone may believe is "more correct." This is especially true in a case like this where "correctness" is disputed.-- Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 15:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
What do you think? Would you find it hard to understand that these regard the country too? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
(excerpt from the guideline):
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Where a name includes geographical directions such as North, East, South or West (in a local language), the full name should be translated into English: hence East Timor, not Timor-Leste; South Ossetia, not Yuzhnaya Osetiya; West Java, not Jawa Barat.
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.
This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.
Ha, ha! Indeed, if we rename the article to FYROM you can still include Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia within the article, as the policy clearly states! I am sure that the Japanese vs Nihon-jin example shows you that we are obliged to use the most common name in English! In the sub-pages:
this is very clearly illustrated. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
FlavrSavr we had the exact same discussion before right below option #4 of this poll. Although I didn't want to include ChrisO without him being present, and this is why I erased my comments about him, I have to remind you that he took the initiative and rewrote the guideline without consulting no one. And still, your logic is still flawed. Let's completely forget all the subjective criteria that the policy mentions. It is no "prescription" to refer to this country as fYRoM. This name is currently used by them OFFICIALLY. They use RoM ONLY internally and in bilateral relations. This fact is uncontested. They agreed to the usage of fYRoM, specifically for all references within an international context, because NO international organisation recognises any other name. Wikipedia represents such an international context. And (I suggest you read this very carefully) fYRoM has explicitly agreed that their final name should be reached after deliberations with Greece"Henceforth the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has formally accepted that the name of its State is an issue for negotiation as provided for in UN Security Council Resolution 817 (1993). ". Moreover, by the three criteria balance table, fYRoM is a clear choice.-- Avg 22:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The difference between an identifying and a self-identifying name. Republic of Macedonia is the official self-identifying name of this entity, as defined by its constitution. Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia isn't. If you're looking for similar parallels try Republic of China - Taiwan - Chinese Taipei. Avg, I'm not intending to explain you the difference between an identifying name and a self-identifying name, again. Also, I'm not interested in your link, I'm well acquainted with the positions of the Greek Ministry of External Affairs - I'll provide you with the original UN resolution, instead:
A/47/876-S/25147,
A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Note: provisionally referred to. Others refer to it as fYROM. The failure to comprehend that is a failure to understand the concept of self-identifying. As for the UN practice - check Modi's explanation here. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conflict, part one - Self-identifying terms. Niko, your argumentation is peculiar. In your opinion, article titles lay somewhere outside the article? Or in other words, Wikipedia can be prescriptive in article titles. So, let's rename it to FYROM and use RoM everywhere within articles? That makes zero sense, no? I hope that the (de facto) author of this policy, ChrisO will find the time to explain this guideline's implications. -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conflict, part two - Most common names. It's quite obvious how this guideline deals with this type of conflicts - see "Dealing with self-identifying terms". Therefore, there is basically no need for searching the most common names. We are not obliged to use the most common name (although it's quite important) - see Republic of China and Taiwan. However, as some native English speakers here noted - FYROM is not the most common name for this state, and Niko, I doubt that your Google tests will prove the contrary. It's quite obvious that news outlets, encyclopedias, geographical name servers prove that "Macedonia" is the most common term. And then again, your Google test is simply wrong. You've excluded so much terms that even a basic country fact such as "Macedonia borders Bulgaria" cannot be considered a valid indicator that Macedonia is, in fact, the most common name for this country. You even say that Unfortunately, Google does not allow for more than 32 words in its search, so there may be even more necessary exclusions. Damn Google! -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyways, I've conducted an another search - including:
and excluding .mk domain hits.-- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that other unnecessary exclusions are made as well (Niko admits that These exclusions, do not show the results for all those sites that use BOTH names (like the WP article).), those three inclusions, and one exclusion render 63 million hits. Contrary to your claims - the vast majority of the hits refer to the modern Republic of Macedonia. And if you like Google that much - check how Google itself refers to this country at the Google directory. Damn Google! -- FlavrSavr 02:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
And again, for further comment I suggest the usage of
because this page will again become a byte-eater.-- Avg 03:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Give up guys, the name of this article is never going to be "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or any permutation thereof. You're just wasting time, bandwidth and bytes. - FrancisTyers 09:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
vs
The Bulgarian capital Sofia was a minor town but it was chosen as the capital of the emerging Bulgarian state because it is at the centre of the territories where Bulgarians are the dominant ethnicity. Sofia is situated between Bulgaria's religious capital in Ochrid and its cultural capital in Veliko Turnovo. The government in Sofia has recognised that Western Bulgaria is called, Republic of Macedonia and that it is an independent Bulgarian region. The new republic takes its name from its southern area that belongs to the region of Macedonia and streches between Bitola and Lake Doiran. The area north of that line is Vardar Bulgaria. The area west of Skopje and north of Struga are not Bugarian but traditionally have been Albanian. No problem. Makedonija 12:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
EGIPETSKATA KRALICA KLEOPATRA BILA ETNI^KA MAKEDONKA
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/aug00/kleopatra.htm
Most citizens of ROM/FYROM do not speak the language of the Macedonians, they speak a fine and 'axioprepi' Slavic language. 'Alexander' said, "'Ανδρες Αθηναίοι [...] αυτός τε γάρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τωρχαίον..." = "Men of Athens [...] had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Greek by descent..." (Herodotus, Histories IX). He never said, 'jas sum Grcki' or 'jas sum Makedonski', just 'Ellin genos eimi'. So relax everybody, one day those new 'ethnic Macedonians' who claim the ancient Macedonians for their ancestors, will probably learn the known language of those 'ancestors'. Then, everyone will continue as one happy family in two independent states. Nothing will change that, even if ROM/FYROM becomes simply ROM. Politis 12:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Noone denies the Greek history. They are making this whole fuss themselves. Pretensions towards Greece? Gimme a break... Some of them are so... xenophobic... Bomac 14:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Just like I said - some of the Greeks are so xenophobic... can't we leave the past and see the future? The Balkan history is a bit of a complex one, which involves all countries and regions in it. And please, don't try to ,,excuse" yourself with these comments, 'caus they are reaction of the other ,,side's" posts and messages. We need the whole picture. Bomac 16:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
And - if Greece didn't made this mess 'round the name, none of this would happen. Bomac 16:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Some of them. According to my personal opinion, Alexander was (Ancient) Macedonian, who, taught by Aristotle, was spreading the Hellenistic culture into the lands he conquerred.
Note: ,,Hellenistic" doesn't mean's that he was actually a Greek. It means that he, influenced by Aristotle (and the Greek language, which, in that time, was something like the English today + the Greek, very develloped culture in those periods), simply, was ,,civilizing" other eastern cultures with the help of the most (already) develloped culture and language in that time.
Note: I don't claim that only Slavs absorbed some features from the Ancient Macedonians, but Greeks and others in this region. Bomac 16:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking 'bout? I didn't mentioned genes. How did that happen genes to interfere? Gee. Bomac 17:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, OK, calm down... Bomac 17:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear friends, according to UN resolutioin 817 [8]and [9], the UN received the Republic of Macedonia on 7 April 1993 under the name, ‘Former Yugolav Republic of Macedonia’… Question: is it ‘nationalistic' to point this out? No, it is fact. Politis 14:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course, no one can argue otherwise. But there is nothing exeptional about this; UN resolutions are dominated by the initiatives of single countries. Politis 14:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, it depends. Some members of the Greek government were against any use of the word 'Macedonia'. Others compromised and argued for, Nova Makedonija (Nea Makedonia, New Macedonia, Nouvelle Macedoine, etc...). I think the political climate up to 1993 was ripe in Skopje and UN for the acceptance of that term; unfortunately, Athens lacked vision. Personally, I like it because it contains the term 'Macedonia' and it includes a disabiguation in 'New' (as in Nouvelle Caledonie, New York, Nea Smyrni...). But... here we are my friend trying to square the circle. Politis 14:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the UN counts for nothing on wiki, only nationalism. Also it is noted FYROM denies Greek/world knowledge of ancient history inorder to insert their own nation in the strange void created. The title of the page should be FYROM and there should be a simple two option vote on this. Reaper7 15:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Your complaints can be forwarded to Kofi Annan! In the meantime, it's not our business (as wikipedians) to discuss if it is a mistake or not. We must just use the standard appellation in all UN, EU, etc lists of members. Otherwise we are really "putting words in UN's mouth", and we wouldn't do that even if we disagreed. Would we? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You are missing the point Francis. I was talking about LISTS of MEMBERS. RTF Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position in the objective criteria point #6 about international organizations to see examples of how many lists are twisted here! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 18:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Arguing that it's actual name is FYROM because the UN et al so call it not a valid point. The CIA Factbook lays it out rather nicely:
FYROM is a provisional and non-permanent designation. Either mention neither or both, but if we introduce one, it should just be "Depending on contexts, it can be formally referred to as FYROM and colloquially as M". If they want to know the difference, they can read on. I think an even BETTER example than China for the naming problem is Galicia. Which is it? Iberian or Easter European? Both names come from a Celtic tradition. Neither article mentions the naming issue until several paragraphs into the article. Since users havea already been through a disamimbiguation page, there is no reason to mention "the naming dispute with greece", it can be assumed and infered, and if it can't, it can be read later on in the article. Guifa 01:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move, not surprisingly. Once Macedonia and Greece settle their naming conflict, maybe we too can finally settle this naming conflict... — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 18:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone compares the situation of FYROM naming dispute with other UN names not in use. The truth is there is currently no other situation that comes even close to comparison with the dispute between Greece and FYROM - so comparisons are futile and desperate by those wanting the page called Macedoinia. However I have noticed many here saying, it is what FYROM sees it self as that counts, not what Greece or the UN, EU, NATO ect want. Therefore it is strange whenever I speak to a Palestinian and they all believe their country to be called Palestine, why then when I type the name Palestine into Wiki do I get the UN/ Isreali explanation of their country and not their explanation of their occupied country. It seems that for this page of Macedonia the World Bodies are ignored including Greece as having got it wrong, LOL, but for the Palestine page the world bodies are taken into huge account and the page does not revolve around what the Palestinians see as their occupied state. Reaper7 14:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I was shocked that after typing Macedonia in the Wikipedia search box, I wasn't automatically redirected to the Republic of Macedonia page. There should be an automatic redirect, or at least put Republic of Macedonia as the term number 1, and not 2.
A huge part of Macedonia was given to Greece by world powers after WWII. Almost no Greeks ever lived there. The "Greek" Macedonia has only been a part of Macedonia for these 60 years, I think the Republic of Macedonia represents Macedonia better than the region given to Greece.
Its fact, not opinion, that the Greeks don't even want to give Macedonia the right to use their ancient name, so that Macedonia won't ask for their territories back. Macedonia is the land of Macedonians, it has always been like that, just because they lost a part of their territory, you can't erase history. MACEDONIA SHOULD REDIRECT TO REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, and then put "Macedonia redirects here, for other uses...". It's the right thing to do. -- serbiana - talk 22:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
You have just posted exactly the same thing above serbiana, someone delete this, we are not stupid, we read it and ignored it the first time. Reaper7 17:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
You fyrom guys are getting funnier by the day.-- Avg 18:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
That is User:Bormalagurski who goes by night under Serbiana. Miskin 20:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting (it depends how autonomous though - Wales style autonomy or Serbia and Montenegro style autonomy). I wonder what would happen if Bulgaria decided to grant full autonomy to the Blagoevgrad Oblast under the name Pirin Macedonia (or, Serbia or Albania decided to grant autonomy to their portions (they're only a couple of villages in reality) of Macedonia under the names Serbian or Albanian Macedonia). Telex 22:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Like present discussions and arguments and polls and what not are not sufficient, we'll have four times as much. Good times :) FunkyFly 22:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
At the Eurovision Song Contest it would be trickier. There would be a:
How would the ignorant outsiders tell them apart and know who to vote for (they may get them mixed up and vote for the Republika e Maqedonisë when they liked the song of the Република Македония)? Telex 23:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh my, you cheeky chaps. a site from Bulgaria, publishing an essay by an American linguist working for the Bulgarian International Institute for Macedonia. My, their scholarship is top rate! Saying that, he makes some valid points, although also some errors of judgement:
And the point of my essay:
In all, its a shame he didn't cover the standardisation of Macedonian within the overall context of the greater standardisation process of all the Balkan Slavic languages. He also neglected to mention the Bulgarian occupation and subsequent "compulsion" of Bulgarian. All in all a fairly average, although very partisan essay. Perhaps he is a famous linguist, I don't know, but these guys do make mistakes, you should see my essay slating Larry Trask. In fact, it is a shame that I didn't see this during my research, he would have made my essay even better — in terms of argumentation. - FrancisTyers 00:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)