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Check this:
WP:NPOV#Undue weight: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each."
After this, and keeping in mind the equal-votes poll, reverting is considered vandalism! NikoSilver (T) @ (C)
That is why the naming dispute section exists. Bitola 17:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Realek 20:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the prior introduction, i.e, before this sleigh ride began (again), which was a discussed and agreeable conciliation to address the multiple viewpoints regarding the country's name; the above rationale is rather subjective. As per the country wikiproject, most countries have short- and long-form renditions that differ but are generally noted in the introduction: this case is only slightly different with the adoption of FYROM ... which is already linked to and noted below in a dedicated section of this article (for those wishing to insinuate arguments regarding undue weight) and at length in the foreign relations article, and also increasingly deprecated. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Consensus helps us to determine, through discussion with involved editors, how to make the article consistent with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. We discuss which viewpoint is the majority one, what other viewpoints are notable minority ones important for conclusion, and which ones are fringe and should be left out of the article, and we attempt to reach consensus on those issues. Jkelly 22:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
About the bolding of FYROM in the first paragraph, we've been having a dispute similar to this over at the Persian Gulf page. It seems that according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style, alternative names should be bolded. However, the dispute is ongoing, whether "Arabian Gulf" is an alternative name or not. The issue here is different - FYROM is definitely an alternative name - however this whole issue seems too controversial to make things simple. What does everyone else think? -- Khoikhoi 23:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I've reincorporated the alternate lead, consistent with the MoS, and have balanced it to clearly indicate the nature of the alternate name. Moreover, I've measured disdain for the approach taken by various editors, primarily from ones surrounding Macedonia, that insinuates a particular opinion under veil of neutrality and has overly-politicised this by foregoing or ignoring prior consensus – and yes, it did exist, despite naysayers. My only hope is that a renewed consensus materialises – which has not occurred yet – that equitably treats the country in this overview article. And I reserve the right to restore the prior version if a consensus isn't evident or for other compelling reasons. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
As I can see, the compromise solution is not longer in place. Ok, then I’m also not obligated to follow the compromise guidelines. As the Naming dispute section was created only to exclude mentioning of naming dispute in other sections (which is now in a great extent violated with putting the reference in the first section), I will now remove that section as no more relevant in the same way as I created it. Bitola 14:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
NikoSilver, the effect of our “little” talk (as you are describing that) lasted for several months and now you are initiating the edit warring again (maybe that is your goal, who knows). Bitola 15:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone please demonstrate that a consensus exists now? Good luck. And arguments regarding neutrality and undue weight are moot, even inflammatory, given the ethnicity of said editors and vocal insinuations of this or that. If a consensus isn't in place or can't be demonstrated, usurping one which clearly existed previously, I see no reason to not restore the prior agreeable version ... which, I might add, is reflected in other compendiums like the Encyclopædia Britannica (Ready Reference) (which notes FYROM below in its entry), its annual yearbook (through a note, as per the status quo), the Oxford English Dictionary (which doesn't even note FYROM), et al.
Miskin 15:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The annual yearbook (2005) that was previously mentioned, also includes FYROM in the head of the article and provides a reason:
Miskin 16:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The majority of online encyclopedias have articles about Macedonia under that short name (not even under the Republic of Macedonia as we are using it here in order to satisfy constant objections of some Greek editors):
However,I agree to keep the current rendition unless someone comes with a really good arguments for a better solution acceptable for the majority of editors of this article. Bitola 16:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with mentioning all significant names in the first paragraph. I think that the solution in this case is pretty straightforward: to describe the situation as it actually is. The country describes itself in its constitution as the Republic of Macedonia and it is also known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia because of the naming dispute with Greece which has yet to be resolved. LionKing 03/04/06
Furthermore, it is inherently biased to omit the name FYROM from the first paragraph, when the name Macedonia is included. LionKing 03/04/06
of all, since we have a "consensus", as you call it, kindly provide me the names of the consenting and opposing users that took part in it. I dare you.
WP:NPOV can be described as the constitution (policy) of WP. Even if your WP:CON (guideline) is valid (which it is definitely not as everybody will see if you dare post the names of the consenting parties), that does not mean that we will break the constitution in view of a mere law. You do not need to comment on this point, but keep it in mind, so that you understand how significant the existence of a true consensus is. For more information on that matter please refer to WP:CON#Consensus vs. other policies.
Both sides have presented enough evidence in 7+1 Archives (or 80,569 words, or 493.8Kb, without the ones you are now reading) that the names are both significant.
A large part of the countries in the world call the country "FYROM", two of the three largest English-speaking countries (Australia and UK -under EU- vs USA just recently) call the country also "FYROM", and all (repeat: ALL) international organizations call the country "FYROM". Examples of the latter are: UN [4] , IMF [5], EU [6], EBRD, [7], NATO [8] and OSCE [9].
A simple google search is not clear to see how often the names are used. One needs to eliminate all possible mentionings of the name "Macedonia" for purposes that do not refer to the country. Also, since this is the English version of WP, one has to search for pages written in English. Such a test has been conducted below. The results are obvious, please compare:
The search uses all possible forms of FYROM: |
The search excludes some obvious words that refer to ...other Macedonias [sic]. Unfortunately, Google does not allow for more than 32 words in its search, so there may be even more necessary exclusions:
|
Why did you exclude Yugoslav??? It doesn't seem fair. The country name in the Yougoslav federation was Socialist Republic of Macedonia. And it was an integral part of the Yugoslav federation. Not to mention that until 1991 Greece had NEVER objected the name of the country. -- Dipazi 23:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a recent poll, for a similar subject: whether the article for the ethnic group, should be called "Macedonians (ethnic group)" or "Macedonian Slavs". The result of the poll was a tie.
The Republic has willingly accepted the official provisional name "FYROM" that has been provided by the United Nations. This is a demonstration of selective self identification. This self identification is POVishly renounced by some FYROM users due to their extreme nationalistic feelings.
All FYROM-like redirects are landed to the article, then the reader could expect to have the name bolded in the introduction paragraph. Otherwise an ignorant reader that clicked on the FYROM link trying to find what it is all about would be completely lost.
The much respected CIA World Fact Book, (which has been used as a reference to many controversial WP articles) ( here) uses the exact same way of listing both formal names in the intro (despite the fact that US has rushed to recognise the country as RoM).
Most major English-language media outlets do call the country FYROM as well. Examples:
Geographic name servers, such as the NGIA GNS specify both names: here
In view of all this, the name "FYROM" should be used as the name of the article. If not (for now), then at the very least, it should appear in the intro sentence along with a well presented link to a Naming dispute section as well. Whatever more arguments are presented by the other side, they are just one more justification that BOTH names are under strong debate. I am NOT taking sides in this debate (as the FYROM users are), I am only saying that BOTH names are strongly considered, they are BOTH significant and they should BOTH be presented in the article EQUALLY. Any other solution is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and should be treated as mere vandalism.
As you see, there is a strong case for including the name FYROM in the intro. For those not yet convinced, that their view is naive, POV and nationalistic, or just "any-version-is-fine-as-long-as-there-are-no-reverts-so-let's-get-done-with-it" I will keep reverting the article, unless there is true consensus. I am closing my statement now, I have an article to revert.
NikoSilver
(T)
@
(C) 21:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you try countering the argument? -- LionKing 10:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I have protected the article so you could solve your dipute on the talk page rather than by edit warring abakharev 03:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi, thanks for your help with protection of Republic of Macedonia article. I'm just asking you if you can make a little change and protect the compromise version of the page. Namely, before several months, after a long and exhaustive edit warring around the name, all relevant editors (both Macedonian and Greek) agreed to make a compromise. The compromise was to create a new section especially intended to describe the naming dispute and to include ALL DATA related to this dispute there (although such sections are unspecific in all other articles about a country). The compromise was related to the intro section as well: we agreed to include a piped/wikified superscript note ( *) to the initial sentence/reference that will lead to the naming dispute section. Now some users are not satisfied with that and initiated the current ongoing edit war, but I think it is fair to protect the compromise solution as the only one relevant at the moment. One of the compromise versions is this: [10]. Bitola 06:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand something. Bitola says that Greek editors agreed to that compromise, I can't see any Greek editors anywhere in that discussion. -- LionKing 10:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Absence does not necessarily mean agreement. He did not participate in that discussion, so you can't claim he agreed to it. -- LionKing 10:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
There should be a straw poll - I think the administrator who blocked the page made a good point about the redirects. -- LionKing 10:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Let me explain again the situation happening at the Republic of Macedonia article. The last compromise solution stopped edit warring for several months before user:NikoSilver and other Greek users started to violate the compromise. The compromise was built on the following:
With the addition of temporary reference in the intro section, the compromise is violated and we have mentioning of naming dispute in two sections. I (and IMO all Macedonian and other neutral editors) will not allow mentioning of this naming dispute in several places in the article. All users must understand that this article is not dedicated to the naming dispute, instead it should deal with all aspects of one country as Macedonia is. For that reason, if the temporary reference is going to stay in the intro section, the Naming dispute section will be no more relevant and it is going to be removed from the article in the same way as it was added as part of the compromise, that way avoiding the repetition of same thing in two sections and making a balance between the desire of Macedonian editors to completely eliminate the ugly reference from the article and the desire of Greek editors to overload the article with the naming dispute. Bitola 10:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that if the country also goes by the name FYROM then it should be mentioned in the first paragraph, the reasons can be dealt with later on. As there is clearly no consensus now, a new one should be formed. In my opinion, Wikipedia should respect the UN's decision and name this article "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - as that has not happened, the least that can be done is to mention the other name at the start. -- LionKing 10:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You do realize that some encyclopedias refer to this country exclusively as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, so merely mentioning it as an alternative name is not dedicating the article to the content dispute. Also, I would dearly love to meet these neutral editors, where are they? One's stand in the matter is not always dependent on ethnicity. I thought Wikipedia was descriptive, not prescriptive. But here you are prescribing the use of the name Republic of Macedonia instead of describing all alternative names. It is inherently biased. -- LionKing 10:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the CIA World Fact Book gets away with it https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. They mention it many many times... without POV usage of footnotes to supress information. -- LionKing 13:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Unless of course the CIA also has nationalistic sentiments. -- LionKing 13:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a dispute since last weekend (April 2-3, 2006) between mainly Greek and FYROM users, as to whether the alternative name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" has to be inserted in the intro paragraph of the article. The Greek position has been outlined just above in the Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Straw-ncensus and WP:NPOV#Undue weight section. Until now, only a part of the outline of the FYROM users position has been posted at the Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Compromise solution section by User:Bitola. The new readers of this page should not base their judgement on the complete arguements of just one of the sides. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You can say whatever you want, but the compromise solution I made with other relevant editors at the time was a good example of collaboration between the editors and nobody even mentioned the naming dispute on that page for months until your recent attempt to overload the article with the naming dispute. However, as your attempt is not accepted by the majority of Macedonian editors (see the history page of the article): (
user:Bitola,
user:Realek,
user:Bomac,
user:Dipazi,
user:Vlatkoto etc) and several other editors like
user:Upon the stair,
user:Jonathunder,
user:E Pluribus Anthony, you should now start to find a new compromise or accept the existing one instead making insulting comments with using of the temporary reference for the Macedonian editors.
Bitola 11:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why the burden is on NikoSilver to convince you. Collaboration means one side making a proposal to another and then counter proposal being make until a mutually acceptable one is found. Your compromise version, achieved when all Greek editors were away is equally unacceptable to them. The user ManiF, who appears to be in some way affiliated to Iran preferred the Greek version as did Khoikhoi and FunkyFly, so it's not exclusively Greek. OTOH it has been explained why your "compromise" version will not do, you have yet to explain why the "Greek" version is not good enough. Why can't Wikipedia be descriptive instead of prescriptive? Why must it prescribe the use of the name Republic of Macedonia when it could describe all alternative names. I understand that you dislike the name FYROM, but why do you have to illegitimize it? If the UN can use it, then Wikipedia should give it sufficient prominence. -- LionKing 11:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is that list ;-) -- LionKing 11:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It is really sad that you are calling a parody (?) the consensus reached among user:E Pluribus Anthony, user:Bitola, the admin user:Jonathunder, user:naryathegreat, Greek editor user:Erath and probably all other editors at the time, because no one objected the consensus then and in the next months, but what can I do? I’m still waiting to see your compromise solution as I already provided one. Bitola 11:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You show no sign of intention to co-operate nor collaborate. Do you agree to a straw poll like NikoSilver proposed above? -- LionKing 11:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, what do you mean "compromise solution" - your version is a much as "compromise solution" as the version I was reverting to. I fail to see why your version is special - the name FYROM was in the first paragraph long before you even joined Wikipedia [11]. Through all 2005, 2004, 2003, the name FYROM was there. Who rocked the boat? -- LionKing 11:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Guys, please be more constructive instead of riding the tall horses and throwing personal comments to everybody else. We all can understand feelings of people forced to name their motherland by such an ugly name. On the other hand, while UN and many countries use this name we have a duty to our readers to somehow mention it in the intro. Any ideas how to do it without upsetting understandable feeling of Macedonians would be very welcome. abakharev 12:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
If you want to believe all that, be my guest :-D I suspect you are unaware of the latest developments and statements of the US government regarding recognizing the name which will emerge from the outcome of the naming dispute as a comrpmise between Greece and FYROM. Not to mention that you shall not be joining the EU under the name Republic of Macedonia. Greece can waste time, if FYROM does not co-operate, all Europe except FYROM will have joined the EU and FYROM will end up being the most backward state in Europe. You need to co-operate ;-) -- LionKing 14:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, the article should mention that those 110 countries recognise FYROM as Republic of Macedonia only in bilateral negotiations or negotiations where Greece or Cyprus are not a party ;-) -- LionKing 14:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Change:
To:
As I understand it, there is a dispute if the country voluntarily adopted such a strange name. On the other hand it is clear that some authors use this title. abakharev 12:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The article title is at Republic of Macedonia - the country is referred to as Republic of Macedonia, what is so wrong with saying that the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is an alternative name. Forcing the UN name to a section at the bottom of the page like they want seems to me like trying to imply that it is an illegitimate name. It is a perfectly legitimate name and the Google searches above prove it is more widely used in English than the other name AND this country agreed to it. Normally, we should be discussing renaming the page - its one descriptive and wholly accurate sentence and no justification has been given for removing it except an alleged consensus formed among known pro-FYROM editors which, it is alleged, overrules three whole years of having that name in the first paragraph. Any way of mentioning it would do. -- LionKing 12:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
And I will never accept hiding up that legitimate alternative name. It has been in the first paragraph for three whole years. It is the legitimate name under which the majority of states and the EU and UN recognise it. It should be in the first paragraph and I'm prepared to take this to the highest level. -- LionKing 12:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
So, the following solution is acceptable for you?
Bitola 12:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong with adding the alternative name in the intro and use that as the link to the naming dispute section. Almost all other encyclopedias have a paragraph dedicated to the naming dispute - it is usually in the history or politics/government sections. All encyclopedias mention the naming dispute OUTSIDE such sections. -- LionKing 12:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
How about this head:
The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia (constitutional name Macedonian: Република Македонија, United Nations membership name: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or FYROM) is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east.
This is the most neutral head I can think of. It doesn't coin names such as "official" and "unofficial", it just tells the truth. It also links to the naming dispute with FYROM. Miskin 12:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I have, it's for citing sources, not a way of hiding vital info. -- LionKing 13:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
No I "did never heard" of it. I'm providing a footnote-free solution above, link goes directly to section. Footnotes by default are used because they will only be checked by a minority of readers, which is far from our scope here. By the way, the image "Satellite view of the Republic of Macedonia" will go. I think everyone would agree that it should Macedonia (Greece) and only a tip of the republic. Does the POV-pushing have any limits? Miskin 13:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
No it isn't - it's the international official name. This was demonstrated at the Olympic Games and the Eurovision ;-) -- LionKing 13:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
---> United Nations It's your World ;-) -- LionKing 13:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry, Bomac. The name FYROM will become permanent when you join the EU under that name ;-) LionKing 13:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I for one believe that the article should be renamed to FYROM. Heraklios
The phrase "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" used to refer to the state in the U.N. admission was not a name at all; it was a diplomatic way to avoid the name. Note the use of lower case, which I reproduced exactly as in the original documents. It is just plain incorrect to say "FYROM" is the "name" or "formal title" of the country. The only way to cover the whole naming issue correctly and in proper context is in a paragraph, as discussed at great length in the archives. Jonathunder 13:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, the CIA World Factbook does the exact opposite of what you're saying https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. It mentions the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro and has other sections to deal with it as well. -- LionKing 13:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually the phrase "The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia" should be changed to The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia". These are the two formal names. If someone refers to this country colloquially as Macedonia, it does not constitute a reason for the article to mention that on the first line, perhaps somewhere below. Why in articles about the Greek region of Macedonia everyone takes care to explicitly state that it is about "the Greek region of Macedonia", while every Greek refers to it by simply Macedonia? I cannot accept the usage of the name Macedonia as a reference to the country. -- Avg 13:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right. At Austria, ONLY the formal name is mentioned. -- LionKing 13:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Why not make the intro like this:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија), also known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (in Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ)), is...
-- LionKing 13:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Jonathunder makes a very important legal point. The refference is not a name - it is what it is a refference. The UN is not and it didn't claim then, to be in charge of naming my country. The name of a country is a sovereign decision of the particular country. So a phrase like "also known as" is false. It's not like an alternative name or something. It's a temproary refference. --
Realek 14:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
If the CIA World Factbook can say something, then so can Wikipedia. -- LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
…and why you don’t want to accept that the provisional reference is not a name at all, that it is just a reference used in some international organizations under Greek pressure, that the ordinary people throughout the world except Greeks are using Macedonia and Macedonians for my country and my people, that there is a whole section in the disputed article created just to describe the dispute… If we continue this way, we will never reach a consensus or compromise. And then, we will restore the previous compromise as the only relevant at the moment. Bitola 14:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Which compromise. The state of having FYROM in the intro which we had for THREE WHOLE YEARS? That was a really effective compromise. If the CIA World Factbook can do it, then so can Wikipedia (NikoSilver's proposal). You still didn't give your opinion on the poll idea. -- LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Bitola this is exactly what you are trying to achieve under the table. The de facto recognition of your country with the name Macedonia. Sorry mate, it won't happen. -- Avg 14:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I'm not so powerfull to do so:) (not that I don't want that). Just to answer to the newbee(?) LionKing comment, the "Naming dispute" section wasn't there for THREE YEARS also as I created it to serve as part of the compromise. So, ok, lets include the reference in the intro and remove the section. Bitola 14:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I oppose erasing all the information in that section. I think it may be OK to merge it into some other section (that's what other encyclopedias have done) and I quite like the way this issue has been handled at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. -- LionKing 14:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course it's valid. Have you read the intro. Their position explains the current location of this article - that could change quickly if a poll were to be called. They mention the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro (in a descriptive sense) and elsewhere. Therefore so can Wikipedia. If you can't (or don't want to) understand, don't make it my problem. -- LionKing 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I just made some quick search in articles about other countries. In Iran, it is stated in the first paragraph the former name of the country ( Persia), which i must say is still in use (to a small extent) in Greece (and maybe in other countries as well). In the article Greece, the name Hellenic Republic (the name we use for our country) is stated in the first paragraph. we never call our country 'Greece'. yet, since this is how we are called abroad, the name is used primarily in the article. there is no reason not to mention the name 'FYROM' in this article. it is a legal, official and internationally recognised name (which the government of RoM has accepted in order to participate in the organisations and to have diplomatic relations with other countries-notably Greece, but also UK,Australia,France,etc). the people of RoM may call their country 'Macedonia', but since other many countries and all the intern. organizations refer to it as FYROM, wikipedia has to mention it. -- Hectorian 17:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Check the talk above to see what is acceptable. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok then. I will explain further: The comment was not in past tense; it was in present tense. That means, I did not imply that you took some kind of responsibility, as you falsely assumed in your next message. It implied an advice not to take (in future) one by yourself, without consulting. Still, there is no definite answer to my question from you and your fellow editors: Are you prepared for a compromise solution, or shall we proceed in the next level (poll/rfc)? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
If you think that I have all day to chat with you or that I'm affraid of your "proposal", you are terrribly wrong. Bitola 15:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
On 4 April 2006, the RoM/FYROM parliament apologized to the victims of the communist regime. Does the apology extend to the Greek Slav-Macedonian victims who suffered at the hands of Slav Macedonian communists in Greece, during the Greek civil war? Many of those perpetrators moved to southern Yugoslavia and some continued their oppressive policies. The Skopje parliament said some 50,000 people were subjected to communist oppression in Macedonia (Fyrom). Politis 17:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree and disagree with you. Greek slavophones or Slav-Macedonians have suffered at the hands of extreme-right Greek governments; Athens should not only find a formula to express its regrets but must help them more to express their identity and culture within Greece. On the other hand, Greek Slav-Macedonians have also seen their culture invaded by Skopje's communist and post-communist ideology of nation building; their unique slav macedonian dialect is also disappearing under the continued influence of the post WWII, re-formated slav Macedonian language. Politis 17:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Since a number of proposals are out, let me tell you what I propose. This article should be renamed to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. There has NEVER been a compromise about its naming and believe me I have read through almost all archives. It is a BLATANTLY FALSE statement from the fyromian side that such a thing has ever happened. Greek editors are being forced to continuously monitor this article to ascertain that the FORMAL name of this country is included. Well once and for all, let's have a poll in order to arrive at a solution about its name. And not only that, ALL Wikipedia articles that include a reference to this one, are force to conform with this name. Greek cities that border with FYROM have to refer to "Republic of Macedonia". This is absurd, how can one conform with a WRONG naming. The repercussions of a wrong and forced decision are felt throughout this encyclopedia and this has to stop. -- Avg 16:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Bitola - or rather, I agree with what is factually correct: the referencing takes place under Macedonia; also, a search for the country is usually carried out under 'Macedonia'. But, of course, the referencing and search of the historical Greek province of Macedonia is also undertaken under the name 'Macedonia' (ergo...?) Politis 17:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
"Your feelings towards Macedonians are well known. Now about the apology - it was needed. Everybody must face the facts from their countries past. I just wonder when Greece is going to do that."
This is not a constructive attitude and we're not here to solve political questions. My books say that the Slav Macedonian opression over the Albanian minorities had been uncomparably worse than the one of Slobodan Milosevic in Kosovo. There are no saints and devils in the Balkans, there's only winners and losers. Blaming the others for your own misfortune doesn't provide any physical help.
Miskin 20:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Given the above and the intractability of said positions ...
The Republic of Macedonia is a country in Europe. The country is part of a greater region called Macedonia. Greece and Bulgaria are neighboring countries of Macedonia having regions in its borders called Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Greek Macedonia or simply Macedonia (Greece). Since the Republic of Macedonia became an independent state in 1991 after breakup of the former federation Yugoslavia, Greece opposes the right of its neighboring country to use its name (despite the fact that the country uses this name officially since 1945 as one of the six republics of the former federation). For that reason, the country was admitted to the UN under the provisional reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". (note that this is not the proof that the country changed its name, on the contrary, the constitutional name of the country is still the Republic of Macedonia). Moreover, the country and the Macedonian people never accepted that provisional reference as it was done forcibly under the Greek pressure. Finally, most people in my country consider this reference insulting.
Almost every online encyclopedia (the only exception I found so far is Encarta) uses the short term for the articles about my country and even don't mention the provisional reference in the intro section:
The article about the Republic of Macedonia is named by the country's constitutional name (the Republic of Macedonia), not by its short version (Macedonia), so we are already making an exception regarding the majority of other online encyclopedias and this naming is IMO slightly biased.
Before several months, after a long and exhaustive edit warring mostly between the Macedonian and Greek editors, several editors, including me, agreed to make a compromise. The compromise was built on two decisions:
Compromise validity came from the fact that since it was achieved, we had no problems and edit warring for several months in this article. However, this compromise was violated by some editors who inserted the provisional reference (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in the intro section. That action disrupted the compromise in a great extent, introducing the naming dispute in more than one place as it was arranged with the compromise.
- Please remove the picture that shows the so called "Macedonia" and the wider Macedonian area. It has not been proven that the so called Macedonias have anything to do with the real Greek Macedons. Take the language for examble the ancient Macedons used Greek and the new ones a Slavic dialect. You can call your country as you wish but at the same time you should imply that your counrtry is bigger then it is.
This poll is an excellent example of lacking a good will for reaching a compromise through the polite discussions, understanding and mutual appreciation (you can see some editors even calling the previous compromise a parody?). Simply, there are so much editors that have not very friendly feelings about this country and trying to present the country as worse as possible. Polls are many times useful, but in the WP article about straw polls we can find the following:
The provisional reference and naming dispute between two countries are important to be mentioned in the article, but we already have a whole section dedicated completely to this dispute. What I and other users are opposing is not the mentioning of the provisional reference itself, rather, for us is unacceptable to overload the article with this dispute as the article about a country should deal with many other aspects of one country, not with dealing with one single issue in several sections. This article shouldn’t be focused on this dispute in such extent. For that reason, I invite you to vote only for the first option.
Bitola 21:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is argued that the alleged "compromise" was a parody. Please see the position of the Extended version supporters analytically here. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 12:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The name of the state is UN Competence! Not Competence of Wikipedia !
THEOPHYLACTUS, arcivescovo di Ochrida
The undersigned inhabitants of Justiniana Prima or Ohrid, after seeing, on one hand, that regardless of all our hopes our common mother, the Great Church of Christ, did not pay attention to the petitions submitted to Her one after another in which we kindly beg Her to change Metropolite Meletius appointed against our will and requests, and ,on the other hand, informed that all our Bulgarian people is indignant with the same at the Great Church of Chris, considered it our inevitable duty to appoint you and recognize you, in accordance with our people, as our plenipotentiary representatives so you can petition, in the kindest fashion, the Sublime Porte to hear our our requests and deliver us from the arbitrariness of the Greek clergy by affirming the restoration of an autocephalous archbishopric of Ohridian Prima Justiniana and all Bulgaria....
1st misconception is that the refference actually represents a name.
2nd misconception is that the UN is involved in "naming" of the country.
3rd misconception is that FYROM is one form of the refference (this abbreviation never existed legally). For citizens of the Republic of Macedonia it is an even more offensive term used than the refference.
Theese are the steps that some are taking to go from: the UN formulation in 1993 "this State being provisionally referred to" to "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as an name for the country to the non-existant "FYROM" abbreviation finnaly ending with Firomians as an ethnic group.
-- Dipazi 00:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The Actual Common misconceptions:
1st misconception is that FYROM is Greek POV and the argument is about which of the two countries POV will prevail. Wrong. FYROM is NPOV. Greek POV is Republic of Skopje.
2nd misconception is that "FYROM" was imposed. Wrong. It was what Skopje agreed with in order to enter the UN.
3rd misconception is that this country's only possible final name can be Republic of Macedonia and the ethnic group Macedonians, since it is used by themselves and they have their fundamental right of self-determination. Wrong. Before arbitrarily Tito chose the name Macedonia, they were called Vardar Province and everybody was happy with that. -- Avg 01:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed that the Greek Wikipedia has the article on this state at el:Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας - the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I tried moving it a few days ago to the Republic of Macedonia name, but this was soon reverted. I believe that this name goes against Wikipedia policy, and only the Welsh, Danish and Greek Wikipedias have the article at this variant. The case for using FYROM should be discussed more in depth, but I think it is only reasonable that a nation's constitutional name is used - a name recognised by the majority of the world's nations - even if the text happens to be in Greek, the language of a nation that does not recognise the name. Ronline ✉ 11:31, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it does not go against policy. Many encyclopedias, both in English and in Greek use refer to this country as the FYROM, so it can be done without compromising neutrality.
BTW your note at the talk page of the Greek Wikipedia article has been answered.
BTW also the final name will not be Republic of Macedonia - the UN will not permit this and neither will Greece. What will happen is they will have to alter their name so it can never be Macedonia. What annoys me is someone reading this will get confused about A the country's name i.e. when it is changed they will be like 'I thought a country was once called Macedonia' - Other guy 'naa, The UN blocked the name until it was altered, don't trust Wiki - they are not a non-bias site - if Iran changed its name next week to DIE ALL AMERICANS and the UN said it was unacceptable - if there were lots of Iranians on this site (like there are lots of FYROM slavs on all the web) that would be the name of their page unfortunately - If this was a real Encyclopedea however it would do what the other Encyclopedeas do - go with Nato and UN, EU ect - not what the GOVT proclaims itself. To have a name that old and that important other bodies have to agree, unfortunately this has not been the case with FYROM hense the name FYROM. If Greece pulled some action like this everybody would go with the UN or EU in naming Greece, but because this is such a small country and Greece has been painted as an angry old man (unfortunately for the slavs with UN and EU, and Nato backing Greece) everyone has overlooked the rules and just given in to the name they want but have not been allowed Reaper7 12:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
HAHAHAHA, America only conceded to letting them have that name because they sent troops to that stupid campaign in Iraq and Greece didn't, I think some people need to grow up on here. America does not care what it is called as long as it is supported on its disgraceful war on terror. The UN helped rename the Balkans and it stuck - they will do the same here. Stealing another country's history is not a simple precedure and the UN, NATO and EU recognise they have got away with alot, now if they want to join the EU their name will not be the Greek MACEDONIA but Macedonia along with another name, like Bosnia Hertz, this site will look silly for backing these FYROM cyber workers and not the international community AKA the UN.
Also this page I think should mention this country's first action as a new nation was to fully support American politics in Iraq with FYROM soldiers Reaper7 13:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that the FYROMian article about the country mk:Република Македонија does not have any prominent reference at all about the internationally adopted name of FYROM, except in the very last paragraph of the page and only for a totally biased four lines, WITHOUT mentioning that this is the internationally adopted name, WITHOUT explaining the issue at all, but only stating that 109 countries have recognised it with the name Republic of Macedonia including USA, China, Russia etc. etc. Are you going to change that as well Ronline? I didn't see any of your reverts there. -- Avg 13:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
hmmmm,a one-off US thing?? There is no such thing, when they do something the world notices and the weaker countries follow, Greece was not aided by the UN - they simply agreed the name was unacceptable in its present state and with the UN, the US and UK carry more weight so something went wrong for FYROM. FYROM should be in the first line. The current name won't stick and you even predicting it will is neglent - not the place of an encyclopedea.
Reaper7 13:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, over at Pjrmskata Vikipedija, in their article on the FYROM, the UN name for the country and the name under which (to use EU terminology) is shall be admitted to the EU (assuming Greece and Cyprus don't refuse to sign the ascension treaty) is only mentioned once in the following context:
Talk about sweeping something under the carpet! They don't even mention that they only use the constitutional name in bilateral negotiations. These double standards have got to stop!
Never happen, this site has already been tacken over, their intro if translated will be totally bias and non diplomatic, yet the Greek version is being questioned - only on Wiki! Reaper7 13:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Just for EVERYBODY TO SEE what the first paragraphs of the same article are:
Greek Wikipedia (article el:Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας) | FYROMian Wikipedia (article mk:Република Македонија) |
"The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (disputed constitutional name "Republic of Macedonia"), is an independent state and is located at the center of the Balkan peninsula and S.Eastern Europe, occupying an area of 25.333 sq.metres. Many times it is referred to (especially outside Greece) simply as "Macedonia", but this causes confusion with the Greek geographical periphery of Macedonia or the wider area of historic Macedonia. In Greece it is often referred to as Skopje or State of Skopje or with the English abbreviation FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), which is also used by most states and most international organisations, such as the European Union and the United Nations. However, some states have recognised it with its constitutional name" | "The Republic of Macedonia is a parliamentary democracy. It is located in South-East Europe, at the Centre of the Balkan peninsula. Its capital is Skopje. The Republic of Macedonia is only a part of ethnic Macedonia and occupies only 38 per cent of its territory. Macedonia's borders are: East with Bulgaria, North - Serbia and Montenegro, West - Albania, South - Greece. The overall length of the borders is 766 km and they are as follows: " |
'nuff said.-- Avg 14:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - when will certain members realise just how double faced this FYROM propaganda is - DIGUSTING.
Reaper7 14:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Q. What does the Wiki and American have in common?
A. The UN means absolutely NOTHING to them when deciding the world.
All the Un wanted was for America to wait, all Greece and the UN wants is for a resolution, Wiki and America just go ahead regardless and get it wrong everytime. Reaper7 14:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but times are changing and America and WIKI are becoming weak to logical concerns, a couple of days ago if someone looked up Macedonia they would have seen nothing about FYROM in the first Paragraph - that has now gone and now people will see just a glimpse of the UN, now we have to change the Slav page too Reaper7 14:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the Greeks, Alexander the Great's people have never looked kindly upon invaders, just because a bunch of slavs settled in nothern macedonia in the 5AD does not mean Greeks will just sit there and let the Slavs claim to be the real Macedonians, LOL. Now we can see the UN coming through on the opening Paragraph, next the Slavic pages - Greeks have a history of defending and giving culture - when it is stolen, the consequences are never easy. Hopefully in the coming weeks we will see more UN and less USA dictating this page, the Britannica - an American Encyclopedea will not have influence on the web!! Reaper7 14:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point something: in the last period we can see an intensified use of insulting terms for the Macedonian people like Fyromians, FYROM nationals, Skopians etc. Please be aware that use of that wording is highly insulting for every ordinary Macedonian user/reader and such behavior will be conveniently reported at WP:PAIN, WP:AN and other places (if needed) in the future. Although this issue is controversial, IMO the only way to avoid such problems is to use the term that WP is using as well: Macedonians (ethnic group). Bitola 07:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
"Republic of Macedonia" as state name of FYROM included Greek History of Macedonia!It is a falsification of Macedonia.
The name "FYROM" is only one spare name as description of the state.
Or even the main one concerning UN, EU, NATO and Greece. Should be put first Reaper7 11:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC).
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Check this:
WP:NPOV#Undue weight: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each."
After this, and keeping in mind the equal-votes poll, reverting is considered vandalism! NikoSilver (T) @ (C)
That is why the naming dispute section exists. Bitola 17:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Realek 20:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the prior introduction, i.e, before this sleigh ride began (again), which was a discussed and agreeable conciliation to address the multiple viewpoints regarding the country's name; the above rationale is rather subjective. As per the country wikiproject, most countries have short- and long-form renditions that differ but are generally noted in the introduction: this case is only slightly different with the adoption of FYROM ... which is already linked to and noted below in a dedicated section of this article (for those wishing to insinuate arguments regarding undue weight) and at length in the foreign relations article, and also increasingly deprecated. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Consensus helps us to determine, through discussion with involved editors, how to make the article consistent with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. We discuss which viewpoint is the majority one, what other viewpoints are notable minority ones important for conclusion, and which ones are fringe and should be left out of the article, and we attempt to reach consensus on those issues. Jkelly 22:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
About the bolding of FYROM in the first paragraph, we've been having a dispute similar to this over at the Persian Gulf page. It seems that according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style, alternative names should be bolded. However, the dispute is ongoing, whether "Arabian Gulf" is an alternative name or not. The issue here is different - FYROM is definitely an alternative name - however this whole issue seems too controversial to make things simple. What does everyone else think? -- Khoikhoi 23:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I've reincorporated the alternate lead, consistent with the MoS, and have balanced it to clearly indicate the nature of the alternate name. Moreover, I've measured disdain for the approach taken by various editors, primarily from ones surrounding Macedonia, that insinuates a particular opinion under veil of neutrality and has overly-politicised this by foregoing or ignoring prior consensus – and yes, it did exist, despite naysayers. My only hope is that a renewed consensus materialises – which has not occurred yet – that equitably treats the country in this overview article. And I reserve the right to restore the prior version if a consensus isn't evident or for other compelling reasons. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
As I can see, the compromise solution is not longer in place. Ok, then I’m also not obligated to follow the compromise guidelines. As the Naming dispute section was created only to exclude mentioning of naming dispute in other sections (which is now in a great extent violated with putting the reference in the first section), I will now remove that section as no more relevant in the same way as I created it. Bitola 14:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
NikoSilver, the effect of our “little” talk (as you are describing that) lasted for several months and now you are initiating the edit warring again (maybe that is your goal, who knows). Bitola 15:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone please demonstrate that a consensus exists now? Good luck. And arguments regarding neutrality and undue weight are moot, even inflammatory, given the ethnicity of said editors and vocal insinuations of this or that. If a consensus isn't in place or can't be demonstrated, usurping one which clearly existed previously, I see no reason to not restore the prior agreeable version ... which, I might add, is reflected in other compendiums like the Encyclopædia Britannica (Ready Reference) (which notes FYROM below in its entry), its annual yearbook (through a note, as per the status quo), the Oxford English Dictionary (which doesn't even note FYROM), et al.
Miskin 15:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The annual yearbook (2005) that was previously mentioned, also includes FYROM in the head of the article and provides a reason:
Miskin 16:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The majority of online encyclopedias have articles about Macedonia under that short name (not even under the Republic of Macedonia as we are using it here in order to satisfy constant objections of some Greek editors):
However,I agree to keep the current rendition unless someone comes with a really good arguments for a better solution acceptable for the majority of editors of this article. Bitola 16:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with mentioning all significant names in the first paragraph. I think that the solution in this case is pretty straightforward: to describe the situation as it actually is. The country describes itself in its constitution as the Republic of Macedonia and it is also known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia because of the naming dispute with Greece which has yet to be resolved. LionKing 03/04/06
Furthermore, it is inherently biased to omit the name FYROM from the first paragraph, when the name Macedonia is included. LionKing 03/04/06
of all, since we have a "consensus", as you call it, kindly provide me the names of the consenting and opposing users that took part in it. I dare you.
WP:NPOV can be described as the constitution (policy) of WP. Even if your WP:CON (guideline) is valid (which it is definitely not as everybody will see if you dare post the names of the consenting parties), that does not mean that we will break the constitution in view of a mere law. You do not need to comment on this point, but keep it in mind, so that you understand how significant the existence of a true consensus is. For more information on that matter please refer to WP:CON#Consensus vs. other policies.
Both sides have presented enough evidence in 7+1 Archives (or 80,569 words, or 493.8Kb, without the ones you are now reading) that the names are both significant.
A large part of the countries in the world call the country "FYROM", two of the three largest English-speaking countries (Australia and UK -under EU- vs USA just recently) call the country also "FYROM", and all (repeat: ALL) international organizations call the country "FYROM". Examples of the latter are: UN [4] , IMF [5], EU [6], EBRD, [7], NATO [8] and OSCE [9].
A simple google search is not clear to see how often the names are used. One needs to eliminate all possible mentionings of the name "Macedonia" for purposes that do not refer to the country. Also, since this is the English version of WP, one has to search for pages written in English. Such a test has been conducted below. The results are obvious, please compare:
The search uses all possible forms of FYROM: |
The search excludes some obvious words that refer to ...other Macedonias [sic]. Unfortunately, Google does not allow for more than 32 words in its search, so there may be even more necessary exclusions:
|
Why did you exclude Yugoslav??? It doesn't seem fair. The country name in the Yougoslav federation was Socialist Republic of Macedonia. And it was an integral part of the Yugoslav federation. Not to mention that until 1991 Greece had NEVER objected the name of the country. -- Dipazi 23:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a recent poll, for a similar subject: whether the article for the ethnic group, should be called "Macedonians (ethnic group)" or "Macedonian Slavs". The result of the poll was a tie.
The Republic has willingly accepted the official provisional name "FYROM" that has been provided by the United Nations. This is a demonstration of selective self identification. This self identification is POVishly renounced by some FYROM users due to their extreme nationalistic feelings.
All FYROM-like redirects are landed to the article, then the reader could expect to have the name bolded in the introduction paragraph. Otherwise an ignorant reader that clicked on the FYROM link trying to find what it is all about would be completely lost.
The much respected CIA World Fact Book, (which has been used as a reference to many controversial WP articles) ( here) uses the exact same way of listing both formal names in the intro (despite the fact that US has rushed to recognise the country as RoM).
Most major English-language media outlets do call the country FYROM as well. Examples:
Geographic name servers, such as the NGIA GNS specify both names: here
In view of all this, the name "FYROM" should be used as the name of the article. If not (for now), then at the very least, it should appear in the intro sentence along with a well presented link to a Naming dispute section as well. Whatever more arguments are presented by the other side, they are just one more justification that BOTH names are under strong debate. I am NOT taking sides in this debate (as the FYROM users are), I am only saying that BOTH names are strongly considered, they are BOTH significant and they should BOTH be presented in the article EQUALLY. Any other solution is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and should be treated as mere vandalism.
As you see, there is a strong case for including the name FYROM in the intro. For those not yet convinced, that their view is naive, POV and nationalistic, or just "any-version-is-fine-as-long-as-there-are-no-reverts-so-let's-get-done-with-it" I will keep reverting the article, unless there is true consensus. I am closing my statement now, I have an article to revert.
NikoSilver
(T)
@
(C) 21:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you try countering the argument? -- LionKing 10:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I have protected the article so you could solve your dipute on the talk page rather than by edit warring abakharev 03:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi, thanks for your help with protection of Republic of Macedonia article. I'm just asking you if you can make a little change and protect the compromise version of the page. Namely, before several months, after a long and exhaustive edit warring around the name, all relevant editors (both Macedonian and Greek) agreed to make a compromise. The compromise was to create a new section especially intended to describe the naming dispute and to include ALL DATA related to this dispute there (although such sections are unspecific in all other articles about a country). The compromise was related to the intro section as well: we agreed to include a piped/wikified superscript note ( *) to the initial sentence/reference that will lead to the naming dispute section. Now some users are not satisfied with that and initiated the current ongoing edit war, but I think it is fair to protect the compromise solution as the only one relevant at the moment. One of the compromise versions is this: [10]. Bitola 06:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand something. Bitola says that Greek editors agreed to that compromise, I can't see any Greek editors anywhere in that discussion. -- LionKing 10:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Absence does not necessarily mean agreement. He did not participate in that discussion, so you can't claim he agreed to it. -- LionKing 10:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
There should be a straw poll - I think the administrator who blocked the page made a good point about the redirects. -- LionKing 10:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Let me explain again the situation happening at the Republic of Macedonia article. The last compromise solution stopped edit warring for several months before user:NikoSilver and other Greek users started to violate the compromise. The compromise was built on the following:
With the addition of temporary reference in the intro section, the compromise is violated and we have mentioning of naming dispute in two sections. I (and IMO all Macedonian and other neutral editors) will not allow mentioning of this naming dispute in several places in the article. All users must understand that this article is not dedicated to the naming dispute, instead it should deal with all aspects of one country as Macedonia is. For that reason, if the temporary reference is going to stay in the intro section, the Naming dispute section will be no more relevant and it is going to be removed from the article in the same way as it was added as part of the compromise, that way avoiding the repetition of same thing in two sections and making a balance between the desire of Macedonian editors to completely eliminate the ugly reference from the article and the desire of Greek editors to overload the article with the naming dispute. Bitola 10:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that if the country also goes by the name FYROM then it should be mentioned in the first paragraph, the reasons can be dealt with later on. As there is clearly no consensus now, a new one should be formed. In my opinion, Wikipedia should respect the UN's decision and name this article "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - as that has not happened, the least that can be done is to mention the other name at the start. -- LionKing 10:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You do realize that some encyclopedias refer to this country exclusively as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, so merely mentioning it as an alternative name is not dedicating the article to the content dispute. Also, I would dearly love to meet these neutral editors, where are they? One's stand in the matter is not always dependent on ethnicity. I thought Wikipedia was descriptive, not prescriptive. But here you are prescribing the use of the name Republic of Macedonia instead of describing all alternative names. It is inherently biased. -- LionKing 10:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the CIA World Fact Book gets away with it https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. They mention it many many times... without POV usage of footnotes to supress information. -- LionKing 13:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Unless of course the CIA also has nationalistic sentiments. -- LionKing 13:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a dispute since last weekend (April 2-3, 2006) between mainly Greek and FYROM users, as to whether the alternative name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" has to be inserted in the intro paragraph of the article. The Greek position has been outlined just above in the Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Straw-ncensus and WP:NPOV#Undue weight section. Until now, only a part of the outline of the FYROM users position has been posted at the Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Compromise solution section by User:Bitola. The new readers of this page should not base their judgement on the complete arguements of just one of the sides. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You can say whatever you want, but the compromise solution I made with other relevant editors at the time was a good example of collaboration between the editors and nobody even mentioned the naming dispute on that page for months until your recent attempt to overload the article with the naming dispute. However, as your attempt is not accepted by the majority of Macedonian editors (see the history page of the article): (
user:Bitola,
user:Realek,
user:Bomac,
user:Dipazi,
user:Vlatkoto etc) and several other editors like
user:Upon the stair,
user:Jonathunder,
user:E Pluribus Anthony, you should now start to find a new compromise or accept the existing one instead making insulting comments with using of the temporary reference for the Macedonian editors.
Bitola 11:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why the burden is on NikoSilver to convince you. Collaboration means one side making a proposal to another and then counter proposal being make until a mutually acceptable one is found. Your compromise version, achieved when all Greek editors were away is equally unacceptable to them. The user ManiF, who appears to be in some way affiliated to Iran preferred the Greek version as did Khoikhoi and FunkyFly, so it's not exclusively Greek. OTOH it has been explained why your "compromise" version will not do, you have yet to explain why the "Greek" version is not good enough. Why can't Wikipedia be descriptive instead of prescriptive? Why must it prescribe the use of the name Republic of Macedonia when it could describe all alternative names. I understand that you dislike the name FYROM, but why do you have to illegitimize it? If the UN can use it, then Wikipedia should give it sufficient prominence. -- LionKing 11:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is that list ;-) -- LionKing 11:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It is really sad that you are calling a parody (?) the consensus reached among user:E Pluribus Anthony, user:Bitola, the admin user:Jonathunder, user:naryathegreat, Greek editor user:Erath and probably all other editors at the time, because no one objected the consensus then and in the next months, but what can I do? I’m still waiting to see your compromise solution as I already provided one. Bitola 11:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You show no sign of intention to co-operate nor collaborate. Do you agree to a straw poll like NikoSilver proposed above? -- LionKing 11:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, what do you mean "compromise solution" - your version is a much as "compromise solution" as the version I was reverting to. I fail to see why your version is special - the name FYROM was in the first paragraph long before you even joined Wikipedia [11]. Through all 2005, 2004, 2003, the name FYROM was there. Who rocked the boat? -- LionKing 11:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Guys, please be more constructive instead of riding the tall horses and throwing personal comments to everybody else. We all can understand feelings of people forced to name their motherland by such an ugly name. On the other hand, while UN and many countries use this name we have a duty to our readers to somehow mention it in the intro. Any ideas how to do it without upsetting understandable feeling of Macedonians would be very welcome. abakharev 12:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
If you want to believe all that, be my guest :-D I suspect you are unaware of the latest developments and statements of the US government regarding recognizing the name which will emerge from the outcome of the naming dispute as a comrpmise between Greece and FYROM. Not to mention that you shall not be joining the EU under the name Republic of Macedonia. Greece can waste time, if FYROM does not co-operate, all Europe except FYROM will have joined the EU and FYROM will end up being the most backward state in Europe. You need to co-operate ;-) -- LionKing 14:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, the article should mention that those 110 countries recognise FYROM as Republic of Macedonia only in bilateral negotiations or negotiations where Greece or Cyprus are not a party ;-) -- LionKing 14:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Change:
To:
As I understand it, there is a dispute if the country voluntarily adopted such a strange name. On the other hand it is clear that some authors use this title. abakharev 12:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The article title is at Republic of Macedonia - the country is referred to as Republic of Macedonia, what is so wrong with saying that the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is an alternative name. Forcing the UN name to a section at the bottom of the page like they want seems to me like trying to imply that it is an illegitimate name. It is a perfectly legitimate name and the Google searches above prove it is more widely used in English than the other name AND this country agreed to it. Normally, we should be discussing renaming the page - its one descriptive and wholly accurate sentence and no justification has been given for removing it except an alleged consensus formed among known pro-FYROM editors which, it is alleged, overrules three whole years of having that name in the first paragraph. Any way of mentioning it would do. -- LionKing 12:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
And I will never accept hiding up that legitimate alternative name. It has been in the first paragraph for three whole years. It is the legitimate name under which the majority of states and the EU and UN recognise it. It should be in the first paragraph and I'm prepared to take this to the highest level. -- LionKing 12:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
So, the following solution is acceptable for you?
Bitola 12:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong with adding the alternative name in the intro and use that as the link to the naming dispute section. Almost all other encyclopedias have a paragraph dedicated to the naming dispute - it is usually in the history or politics/government sections. All encyclopedias mention the naming dispute OUTSIDE such sections. -- LionKing 12:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
How about this head:
The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia (constitutional name Macedonian: Република Македонија, United Nations membership name: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or FYROM) is an independent state on the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. The country borders Serbia and Montenegro to the north, Albania to the west, Greece to the south, and Bulgaria to the east.
This is the most neutral head I can think of. It doesn't coin names such as "official" and "unofficial", it just tells the truth. It also links to the naming dispute with FYROM. Miskin 12:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I have, it's for citing sources, not a way of hiding vital info. -- LionKing 13:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
No I "did never heard" of it. I'm providing a footnote-free solution above, link goes directly to section. Footnotes by default are used because they will only be checked by a minority of readers, which is far from our scope here. By the way, the image "Satellite view of the Republic of Macedonia" will go. I think everyone would agree that it should Macedonia (Greece) and only a tip of the republic. Does the POV-pushing have any limits? Miskin 13:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
No it isn't - it's the international official name. This was demonstrated at the Olympic Games and the Eurovision ;-) -- LionKing 13:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
---> United Nations It's your World ;-) -- LionKing 13:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry, Bomac. The name FYROM will become permanent when you join the EU under that name ;-) LionKing 13:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I for one believe that the article should be renamed to FYROM. Heraklios
The phrase "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" used to refer to the state in the U.N. admission was not a name at all; it was a diplomatic way to avoid the name. Note the use of lower case, which I reproduced exactly as in the original documents. It is just plain incorrect to say "FYROM" is the "name" or "formal title" of the country. The only way to cover the whole naming issue correctly and in proper context is in a paragraph, as discussed at great length in the archives. Jonathunder 13:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, the CIA World Factbook does the exact opposite of what you're saying https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. It mentions the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro and has other sections to deal with it as well. -- LionKing 13:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually the phrase "The Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia" should be changed to The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia". These are the two formal names. If someone refers to this country colloquially as Macedonia, it does not constitute a reason for the article to mention that on the first line, perhaps somewhere below. Why in articles about the Greek region of Macedonia everyone takes care to explicitly state that it is about "the Greek region of Macedonia", while every Greek refers to it by simply Macedonia? I cannot accept the usage of the name Macedonia as a reference to the country. -- Avg 13:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right. At Austria, ONLY the formal name is mentioned. -- LionKing 13:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Why not make the intro like this:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија), also known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (in Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ)), is...
-- LionKing 13:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Jonathunder makes a very important legal point. The refference is not a name - it is what it is a refference. The UN is not and it didn't claim then, to be in charge of naming my country. The name of a country is a sovereign decision of the particular country. So a phrase like "also known as" is false. It's not like an alternative name or something. It's a temproary refference. --
Realek 14:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
If the CIA World Factbook can say something, then so can Wikipedia. -- LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
…and why you don’t want to accept that the provisional reference is not a name at all, that it is just a reference used in some international organizations under Greek pressure, that the ordinary people throughout the world except Greeks are using Macedonia and Macedonians for my country and my people, that there is a whole section in the disputed article created just to describe the dispute… If we continue this way, we will never reach a consensus or compromise. And then, we will restore the previous compromise as the only relevant at the moment. Bitola 14:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Which compromise. The state of having FYROM in the intro which we had for THREE WHOLE YEARS? That was a really effective compromise. If the CIA World Factbook can do it, then so can Wikipedia (NikoSilver's proposal). You still didn't give your opinion on the poll idea. -- LionKing 14:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Bitola this is exactly what you are trying to achieve under the table. The de facto recognition of your country with the name Macedonia. Sorry mate, it won't happen. -- Avg 14:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I'm not so powerfull to do so:) (not that I don't want that). Just to answer to the newbee(?) LionKing comment, the "Naming dispute" section wasn't there for THREE YEARS also as I created it to serve as part of the compromise. So, ok, lets include the reference in the intro and remove the section. Bitola 14:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I oppose erasing all the information in that section. I think it may be OK to merge it into some other section (that's what other encyclopedias have done) and I quite like the way this issue has been handled at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html. -- LionKing 14:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course it's valid. Have you read the intro. Their position explains the current location of this article - that could change quickly if a poll were to be called. They mention the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the intro (in a descriptive sense) and elsewhere. Therefore so can Wikipedia. If you can't (or don't want to) understand, don't make it my problem. -- LionKing 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I just made some quick search in articles about other countries. In Iran, it is stated in the first paragraph the former name of the country ( Persia), which i must say is still in use (to a small extent) in Greece (and maybe in other countries as well). In the article Greece, the name Hellenic Republic (the name we use for our country) is stated in the first paragraph. we never call our country 'Greece'. yet, since this is how we are called abroad, the name is used primarily in the article. there is no reason not to mention the name 'FYROM' in this article. it is a legal, official and internationally recognised name (which the government of RoM has accepted in order to participate in the organisations and to have diplomatic relations with other countries-notably Greece, but also UK,Australia,France,etc). the people of RoM may call their country 'Macedonia', but since other many countries and all the intern. organizations refer to it as FYROM, wikipedia has to mention it. -- Hectorian 17:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Check the talk above to see what is acceptable. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok then. I will explain further: The comment was not in past tense; it was in present tense. That means, I did not imply that you took some kind of responsibility, as you falsely assumed in your next message. It implied an advice not to take (in future) one by yourself, without consulting. Still, there is no definite answer to my question from you and your fellow editors: Are you prepared for a compromise solution, or shall we proceed in the next level (poll/rfc)? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
If you think that I have all day to chat with you or that I'm affraid of your "proposal", you are terrribly wrong. Bitola 15:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
On 4 April 2006, the RoM/FYROM parliament apologized to the victims of the communist regime. Does the apology extend to the Greek Slav-Macedonian victims who suffered at the hands of Slav Macedonian communists in Greece, during the Greek civil war? Many of those perpetrators moved to southern Yugoslavia and some continued their oppressive policies. The Skopje parliament said some 50,000 people were subjected to communist oppression in Macedonia (Fyrom). Politis 17:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree and disagree with you. Greek slavophones or Slav-Macedonians have suffered at the hands of extreme-right Greek governments; Athens should not only find a formula to express its regrets but must help them more to express their identity and culture within Greece. On the other hand, Greek Slav-Macedonians have also seen their culture invaded by Skopje's communist and post-communist ideology of nation building; their unique slav macedonian dialect is also disappearing under the continued influence of the post WWII, re-formated slav Macedonian language. Politis 17:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Since a number of proposals are out, let me tell you what I propose. This article should be renamed to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. There has NEVER been a compromise about its naming and believe me I have read through almost all archives. It is a BLATANTLY FALSE statement from the fyromian side that such a thing has ever happened. Greek editors are being forced to continuously monitor this article to ascertain that the FORMAL name of this country is included. Well once and for all, let's have a poll in order to arrive at a solution about its name. And not only that, ALL Wikipedia articles that include a reference to this one, are force to conform with this name. Greek cities that border with FYROM have to refer to "Republic of Macedonia". This is absurd, how can one conform with a WRONG naming. The repercussions of a wrong and forced decision are felt throughout this encyclopedia and this has to stop. -- Avg 16:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Bitola - or rather, I agree with what is factually correct: the referencing takes place under Macedonia; also, a search for the country is usually carried out under 'Macedonia'. But, of course, the referencing and search of the historical Greek province of Macedonia is also undertaken under the name 'Macedonia' (ergo...?) Politis 17:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
"Your feelings towards Macedonians are well known. Now about the apology - it was needed. Everybody must face the facts from their countries past. I just wonder when Greece is going to do that."
This is not a constructive attitude and we're not here to solve political questions. My books say that the Slav Macedonian opression over the Albanian minorities had been uncomparably worse than the one of Slobodan Milosevic in Kosovo. There are no saints and devils in the Balkans, there's only winners and losers. Blaming the others for your own misfortune doesn't provide any physical help.
Miskin 20:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Given the above and the intractability of said positions ...
The Republic of Macedonia is a country in Europe. The country is part of a greater region called Macedonia. Greece and Bulgaria are neighboring countries of Macedonia having regions in its borders called Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Greek Macedonia or simply Macedonia (Greece). Since the Republic of Macedonia became an independent state in 1991 after breakup of the former federation Yugoslavia, Greece opposes the right of its neighboring country to use its name (despite the fact that the country uses this name officially since 1945 as one of the six republics of the former federation). For that reason, the country was admitted to the UN under the provisional reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". (note that this is not the proof that the country changed its name, on the contrary, the constitutional name of the country is still the Republic of Macedonia). Moreover, the country and the Macedonian people never accepted that provisional reference as it was done forcibly under the Greek pressure. Finally, most people in my country consider this reference insulting.
Almost every online encyclopedia (the only exception I found so far is Encarta) uses the short term for the articles about my country and even don't mention the provisional reference in the intro section:
The article about the Republic of Macedonia is named by the country's constitutional name (the Republic of Macedonia), not by its short version (Macedonia), so we are already making an exception regarding the majority of other online encyclopedias and this naming is IMO slightly biased.
Before several months, after a long and exhaustive edit warring mostly between the Macedonian and Greek editors, several editors, including me, agreed to make a compromise. The compromise was built on two decisions:
Compromise validity came from the fact that since it was achieved, we had no problems and edit warring for several months in this article. However, this compromise was violated by some editors who inserted the provisional reference (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in the intro section. That action disrupted the compromise in a great extent, introducing the naming dispute in more than one place as it was arranged with the compromise.
- Please remove the picture that shows the so called "Macedonia" and the wider Macedonian area. It has not been proven that the so called Macedonias have anything to do with the real Greek Macedons. Take the language for examble the ancient Macedons used Greek and the new ones a Slavic dialect. You can call your country as you wish but at the same time you should imply that your counrtry is bigger then it is.
This poll is an excellent example of lacking a good will for reaching a compromise through the polite discussions, understanding and mutual appreciation (you can see some editors even calling the previous compromise a parody?). Simply, there are so much editors that have not very friendly feelings about this country and trying to present the country as worse as possible. Polls are many times useful, but in the WP article about straw polls we can find the following:
The provisional reference and naming dispute between two countries are important to be mentioned in the article, but we already have a whole section dedicated completely to this dispute. What I and other users are opposing is not the mentioning of the provisional reference itself, rather, for us is unacceptable to overload the article with this dispute as the article about a country should deal with many other aspects of one country, not with dealing with one single issue in several sections. This article shouldn’t be focused on this dispute in such extent. For that reason, I invite you to vote only for the first option.
Bitola 21:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is argued that the alleged "compromise" was a parody. Please see the position of the Extended version supporters analytically here. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 12:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The name of the state is UN Competence! Not Competence of Wikipedia !
THEOPHYLACTUS, arcivescovo di Ochrida
The undersigned inhabitants of Justiniana Prima or Ohrid, after seeing, on one hand, that regardless of all our hopes our common mother, the Great Church of Christ, did not pay attention to the petitions submitted to Her one after another in which we kindly beg Her to change Metropolite Meletius appointed against our will and requests, and ,on the other hand, informed that all our Bulgarian people is indignant with the same at the Great Church of Chris, considered it our inevitable duty to appoint you and recognize you, in accordance with our people, as our plenipotentiary representatives so you can petition, in the kindest fashion, the Sublime Porte to hear our our requests and deliver us from the arbitrariness of the Greek clergy by affirming the restoration of an autocephalous archbishopric of Ohridian Prima Justiniana and all Bulgaria....
1st misconception is that the refference actually represents a name.
2nd misconception is that the UN is involved in "naming" of the country.
3rd misconception is that FYROM is one form of the refference (this abbreviation never existed legally). For citizens of the Republic of Macedonia it is an even more offensive term used than the refference.
Theese are the steps that some are taking to go from: the UN formulation in 1993 "this State being provisionally referred to" to "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as an name for the country to the non-existant "FYROM" abbreviation finnaly ending with Firomians as an ethnic group.
-- Dipazi 00:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The Actual Common misconceptions:
1st misconception is that FYROM is Greek POV and the argument is about which of the two countries POV will prevail. Wrong. FYROM is NPOV. Greek POV is Republic of Skopje.
2nd misconception is that "FYROM" was imposed. Wrong. It was what Skopje agreed with in order to enter the UN.
3rd misconception is that this country's only possible final name can be Republic of Macedonia and the ethnic group Macedonians, since it is used by themselves and they have their fundamental right of self-determination. Wrong. Before arbitrarily Tito chose the name Macedonia, they were called Vardar Province and everybody was happy with that. -- Avg 01:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed that the Greek Wikipedia has the article on this state at el:Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας - the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I tried moving it a few days ago to the Republic of Macedonia name, but this was soon reverted. I believe that this name goes against Wikipedia policy, and only the Welsh, Danish and Greek Wikipedias have the article at this variant. The case for using FYROM should be discussed more in depth, but I think it is only reasonable that a nation's constitutional name is used - a name recognised by the majority of the world's nations - even if the text happens to be in Greek, the language of a nation that does not recognise the name. Ronline ✉ 11:31, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it does not go against policy. Many encyclopedias, both in English and in Greek use refer to this country as the FYROM, so it can be done without compromising neutrality.
BTW your note at the talk page of the Greek Wikipedia article has been answered.
BTW also the final name will not be Republic of Macedonia - the UN will not permit this and neither will Greece. What will happen is they will have to alter their name so it can never be Macedonia. What annoys me is someone reading this will get confused about A the country's name i.e. when it is changed they will be like 'I thought a country was once called Macedonia' - Other guy 'naa, The UN blocked the name until it was altered, don't trust Wiki - they are not a non-bias site - if Iran changed its name next week to DIE ALL AMERICANS and the UN said it was unacceptable - if there were lots of Iranians on this site (like there are lots of FYROM slavs on all the web) that would be the name of their page unfortunately - If this was a real Encyclopedea however it would do what the other Encyclopedeas do - go with Nato and UN, EU ect - not what the GOVT proclaims itself. To have a name that old and that important other bodies have to agree, unfortunately this has not been the case with FYROM hense the name FYROM. If Greece pulled some action like this everybody would go with the UN or EU in naming Greece, but because this is such a small country and Greece has been painted as an angry old man (unfortunately for the slavs with UN and EU, and Nato backing Greece) everyone has overlooked the rules and just given in to the name they want but have not been allowed Reaper7 12:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
HAHAHAHA, America only conceded to letting them have that name because they sent troops to that stupid campaign in Iraq and Greece didn't, I think some people need to grow up on here. America does not care what it is called as long as it is supported on its disgraceful war on terror. The UN helped rename the Balkans and it stuck - they will do the same here. Stealing another country's history is not a simple precedure and the UN, NATO and EU recognise they have got away with alot, now if they want to join the EU their name will not be the Greek MACEDONIA but Macedonia along with another name, like Bosnia Hertz, this site will look silly for backing these FYROM cyber workers and not the international community AKA the UN.
Also this page I think should mention this country's first action as a new nation was to fully support American politics in Iraq with FYROM soldiers Reaper7 13:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that the FYROMian article about the country mk:Република Македонија does not have any prominent reference at all about the internationally adopted name of FYROM, except in the very last paragraph of the page and only for a totally biased four lines, WITHOUT mentioning that this is the internationally adopted name, WITHOUT explaining the issue at all, but only stating that 109 countries have recognised it with the name Republic of Macedonia including USA, China, Russia etc. etc. Are you going to change that as well Ronline? I didn't see any of your reverts there. -- Avg 13:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
hmmmm,a one-off US thing?? There is no such thing, when they do something the world notices and the weaker countries follow, Greece was not aided by the UN - they simply agreed the name was unacceptable in its present state and with the UN, the US and UK carry more weight so something went wrong for FYROM. FYROM should be in the first line. The current name won't stick and you even predicting it will is neglent - not the place of an encyclopedea.
Reaper7 13:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, over at Pjrmskata Vikipedija, in their article on the FYROM, the UN name for the country and the name under which (to use EU terminology) is shall be admitted to the EU (assuming Greece and Cyprus don't refuse to sign the ascension treaty) is only mentioned once in the following context:
Talk about sweeping something under the carpet! They don't even mention that they only use the constitutional name in bilateral negotiations. These double standards have got to stop!
Never happen, this site has already been tacken over, their intro if translated will be totally bias and non diplomatic, yet the Greek version is being questioned - only on Wiki! Reaper7 13:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Just for EVERYBODY TO SEE what the first paragraphs of the same article are:
Greek Wikipedia (article el:Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας) | FYROMian Wikipedia (article mk:Република Македонија) |
"The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (disputed constitutional name "Republic of Macedonia"), is an independent state and is located at the center of the Balkan peninsula and S.Eastern Europe, occupying an area of 25.333 sq.metres. Many times it is referred to (especially outside Greece) simply as "Macedonia", but this causes confusion with the Greek geographical periphery of Macedonia or the wider area of historic Macedonia. In Greece it is often referred to as Skopje or State of Skopje or with the English abbreviation FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), which is also used by most states and most international organisations, such as the European Union and the United Nations. However, some states have recognised it with its constitutional name" | "The Republic of Macedonia is a parliamentary democracy. It is located in South-East Europe, at the Centre of the Balkan peninsula. Its capital is Skopje. The Republic of Macedonia is only a part of ethnic Macedonia and occupies only 38 per cent of its territory. Macedonia's borders are: East with Bulgaria, North - Serbia and Montenegro, West - Albania, South - Greece. The overall length of the borders is 766 km and they are as follows: " |
'nuff said.-- Avg 14:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - when will certain members realise just how double faced this FYROM propaganda is - DIGUSTING.
Reaper7 14:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Q. What does the Wiki and American have in common?
A. The UN means absolutely NOTHING to them when deciding the world.
All the Un wanted was for America to wait, all Greece and the UN wants is for a resolution, Wiki and America just go ahead regardless and get it wrong everytime. Reaper7 14:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but times are changing and America and WIKI are becoming weak to logical concerns, a couple of days ago if someone looked up Macedonia they would have seen nothing about FYROM in the first Paragraph - that has now gone and now people will see just a glimpse of the UN, now we have to change the Slav page too Reaper7 14:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the Greeks, Alexander the Great's people have never looked kindly upon invaders, just because a bunch of slavs settled in nothern macedonia in the 5AD does not mean Greeks will just sit there and let the Slavs claim to be the real Macedonians, LOL. Now we can see the UN coming through on the opening Paragraph, next the Slavic pages - Greeks have a history of defending and giving culture - when it is stolen, the consequences are never easy. Hopefully in the coming weeks we will see more UN and less USA dictating this page, the Britannica - an American Encyclopedea will not have influence on the web!! Reaper7 14:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point something: in the last period we can see an intensified use of insulting terms for the Macedonian people like Fyromians, FYROM nationals, Skopians etc. Please be aware that use of that wording is highly insulting for every ordinary Macedonian user/reader and such behavior will be conveniently reported at WP:PAIN, WP:AN and other places (if needed) in the future. Although this issue is controversial, IMO the only way to avoid such problems is to use the term that WP is using as well: Macedonians (ethnic group). Bitola 07:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
"Republic of Macedonia" as state name of FYROM included Greek History of Macedonia!It is a falsification of Macedonia.
The name "FYROM" is only one spare name as description of the state.
Or even the main one concerning UN, EU, NATO and Greece. Should be put first Reaper7 11:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC).