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So-called "Muscovy", which according to the author of this article wallowed in barbarism,actually availed itself of the finest Italian masters in the 15th century, which resulted in the proliferation of Cinquecento monuments at the court of Ivan III (e.g., the Palace of Facets). Neither Aloisio the New nor any other major Italian master who worked in 16th-century Russia came here from Poland, either. However, I'm afraid that its pointless to argue with the author of this article, who not only previously attempted to propagate "civilisatory mission" of Poland in Eastern Europe (a paraphrase for his country's imperial ambitions and attempts at colonization of East Slavs), but even gives credence to the fables about Ptolemy making use of Polish maps in the 2nd cent. AD. -- Ghirla -трёп- 23:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
THE TARTAR YOKE by Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College --
Molobo
21:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
[...pages of pasted text removed by Irpen]]
Molobo, stop pasting chunks into Wikipedia! You were blocked for that already! We all know how to click and read in English. If you need to summarize something, do it yourself and briefly. If you want things discussed, please help everyone keep talk pages readable. -- Irpen 21:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College
--
Molobo
22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The above quote which I entered was deleted by Calgacus
[1]
I have seen larger quotes used on discussion pages. It is most sad to see that users now resort to this kind of vandalism to push their POV. -- Molobo 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
'Unfortunetly discussion on the subject is impossible. Users engaged in discussion with me delete every comment I make, I wish not to be subject to 3RR, but I am powerless against this act of vandalism. -- Molobo 22:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a "huge chunk of external website"? : http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/07tartar.html
In conclusion we might ask ourselves what influence the Tartar-Mongols had on Russia.
(...)
Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College -- Molobo 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I responded there. Molobo, this time the piece you added is OK, I think. I have no intention to delete it. Please do not bold it all either. -- Irpen 22:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, this article - and the disputed entry - is referenced. The disputed quote is actually taken directly from the source [2] - I expected it may be somewhat controversial, so I decided to keep the relevant paragraph unchanged. I don't understand why some people want to deny that Renaissance spread first to the countries close to Italy and then to those further, but it appears that some people would rather argue that Earth is flat before conceding that Poland might have done something to Russia besides invading it (twice, at least) and being ungrateful for occu... I mean, brotherly help after IIWW. Sheeez. If you think that Michael J. Mikos [3], Professor of University of Milkwaukee, is biased or wrong, please provide other ACADEMIC references that say so. Otherwise either expand this article with relevant references or do so at Renaissance in Russia.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The POV that Poland was a civilizator of Russia does exist Well you can hardly argue it was otherwise-here is how Muscovy was seen in Polish culture: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/903/233books.html And there is no denying that Sarmatian literature takes a view of Muscovy that the Russians would dearly love to erase. To a Sarmatian, Muscovy had little to do with European civilization. It was a "rude and barbarous kingdom" to be viewed with pity rather than awe. Sarmatian attitude contrasts sharply with the "powerful brother" image the Russians have tried to build in Slavic countries in the nineteenth century, and also in the Soviet period. -- Molobo 23:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Certainly we should not remove the tag 'just like this', but please explain to me which parts of the article are still POVed? Of course expantion and careful attention to the language would be prudent, but I don't see what is POVed or disputable in the article (especially as it is referenced with an academic source). If there is no basis for the POV tag, than it can be removed, right?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess Bangladesh is more developed then Luxemburg then. -- Molobo 02:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC) 1) Russia is in Europe It isn't about geography but wider cultural and civilisation issues. 2) "catching up" presupposes a unilinear moral conceptualization of history (POV) A rather dubious statement.
and it is not exactly clear that a) Russia was more "backward" than western Europe (POV) I think its pretty clear and quite objective statement that indeed it was. -- Molobo 23:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
No not really, but needs to be fully expanded: "In recent times, Poland has been subjected to Soviet occupation and as result its backward compered to the countries of the West Europe. As a result Poland had to catch up with them in terms of economic development" I would have nothing against such statemant.
I note that there a no words like backward, superior in the article which you imply. Of course it is interesting to see you oppose any mention of "Backwardness", just after you claimed Poland, before it brought in German settlers to urbanize it, could boast little more than a series of fortified cragie lumps with some mud-huts around them. -- Molobo 00:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I merely pointed out that medieval Russia was significantly more urban than Poland, which I'm sure you'd not disagree with I disagree with it, since it is well known that in the period that territory of modern Russia was part of Mongol Empire it was depopulated. -- Molobo 00:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Granted, that was my 'quick fix' adition and the word choice may be somewhat unfortunate, feel free to work on it. On the other hand, it's an addition of the past hour, so I don't think it can be cited as the basis of the 2+ day old POV tag discussion, now can it?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What the article says is that there was an influence of West-European cultural developments on Eastern Europe, which is just a fact. No serious researcher would deny it.
If you would like keep the tag, please explain your objections and cite the corresponding fragments of the article text. Your own phantasy is not the reason to tag the article.-- AndriyK 09:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with removal sonce the edit war stopped. Note that tag stopped the refert war that was just filling the article's history. So, it served its purpose. Of there are still objections, they will be brought up. -- Irpen 23:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Cranach IS NOT a Polish immigrant artist. His works were only commisioned and bought by Poles. Better insert here Hans Vredeman de Vries.
I agree with Cranach, but de Vries WAS NOT a renaissance painter. He established manierism in Gdańsk. I think Michael Lancz von Kitzingen in Kraków and Martin Schoninck in Gdańsk match perfectly.
There schould also be stated in a different sentense that Cranach and Durer influenced polish renaissance painting in the 1 half of the XVIth century, despite they never came to Poland, only their work was commisioned by poles. 217.172.234.156 23:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"Characteristic laicization of life in Renaissance and reformation gave only minor development of sacral art."
This statement is false. Rennaissance gave great developement of sacral art in Poland, in fact it was a period of rebirth of religious art. The Myth of lay renassaince was destroyed by historians of art in the late 50'.
Reformation was a religous movement, that spread in northern Poland from about 1525, so you can't say of a minor developement of religious art because of it. 217.172.234.156 23:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The article says: The Renaissance in Poland (Polish: Odrodzenie, literally 'Rebirth') lasted from the late 15th century to the late 16th century and is widely considered to be the Golden Age of Polish culture.
All the handbooks of the Polish literature I know generally agree that the Renaissance in Poland has its beginnings in the late fifteenth century and lasts until 1620. The first two decades of seventeenth century are marked by the works of the tow excellent poets: Szymon Szymonowic, a pastoral writer and brilliant translator of Tasso's epic poems Piotr Kochanowski. Kameal ( talk) 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Odmeinny charakter poezji w Polsce ostatniego trzydziestolecia XV w. stanowił wielkie novum i swego rodzaju rewelację. Poezja ta, zapoczątkowana zresztą głównie przez cudzoziemców, Włocha Kallimacha i Niemca Konrada Celtisa, niosła już zapowiedź nowych prądów, nowej epoki humanizmu renesansowego płynącego w Włoch do Polski. (page 6)
Historia literatury polskiej w dziesięciu tomach. Tom II. Renesans Bochnia-Kraków-Warszawa has:
Wśród propozycji periodyzacji polskiego renesansu najbardziej przekonywująca i najlepiej udokumentowana jest ta, którą przedstawił w swoich pracach Janusz Pelc. Wyróżnia on tutaj pięć okresów- po pierwsze "poczatki renesansowego humanizmu w Polsce" (od połowy XV w, do ok. 1510 r.), które można by również określić jako prerenesans [...].
A division of a cultural period is always imprecise, thus in the period 1450-1550 medieval traditions coexist in Poland with the renaissance humanism.
I will try to work on this section on upcoming weekend, however I'll post changes here for a grammar correction someone good willing will do I guess. i will also try to gather more references, now being out of my home books.
I've placed the term "Renesans" before "Odrodzenie". The reason is that in contemporary Polish scholarship the French like version "Renesans" has gained wider acceptance, e.g. the main university handbook by Jerzy Ziomek is entitled "Renesans". The "Odrodzenie" being itself a calque of the French term is also acceptable, but it seems a bit obsolete: you can hardly hear anyone talking about his "Odrodzenie's exam results" here in Poland. Polish Language Dictionary defines "Odrodzenie" as "the restitution of the former values" primarily: http://sjp.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=odrodzenie . Having pointed all this above I believe that it could stay. Kameal ( talk) 23:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The following sentences were lifted from this website or are very close to it, please address. [4], which describes itself as based on this printed source: Polish Literature from the Middle Ages to the End of the Eighteenth Century. A Bilingual Anthology, by Michael J. Mikoś, Warsaw: Constans, 1999. The Renaissance belief in the dignity of man and power of his reason found a fertile ground in Poland. Members of Polish intellectual elite, like Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski, Johannes Dantiscus or Jan Łaski maintained contacts with leading European luminaries, including Thomas More, Erasmus and Philip Melanchthon. The portraitists left behind a splendid pictorial gallery of the noble and the wealthy, capturing characteristic features and social position of each person. The center of musical culture was the royal residence in Cracow. The finest works of the period include vocal and instrumental compositions, dances, organ and polyphonic music as well as solemn oratorios and masses. The Tablature, compiled in 1540 b Jan of Lublin, was an extensive collection of all known European organ compositions. Especially popular were compositions for organ and the lute. In 1578, chancellor Jan Zamoyski conceived a bold plan of building the ideal Renaissance city, and he sponsored the creation of Zamość, which quickly became an important administrative, commercial and educational city in Renaissance Poland. Novickas ( talk) 15:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Failed, due to insufficient referencing (many unref paras) and poor structure (overview section is bad style, that's what lead is for). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Renaissance in Poland appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 21 February 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
So-called "Muscovy", which according to the author of this article wallowed in barbarism,actually availed itself of the finest Italian masters in the 15th century, which resulted in the proliferation of Cinquecento monuments at the court of Ivan III (e.g., the Palace of Facets). Neither Aloisio the New nor any other major Italian master who worked in 16th-century Russia came here from Poland, either. However, I'm afraid that its pointless to argue with the author of this article, who not only previously attempted to propagate "civilisatory mission" of Poland in Eastern Europe (a paraphrase for his country's imperial ambitions and attempts at colonization of East Slavs), but even gives credence to the fables about Ptolemy making use of Polish maps in the 2nd cent. AD. -- Ghirla -трёп- 23:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
THE TARTAR YOKE by Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College --
Molobo
21:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
[...pages of pasted text removed by Irpen]]
Molobo, stop pasting chunks into Wikipedia! You were blocked for that already! We all know how to click and read in English. If you need to summarize something, do it yourself and briefly. If you want things discussed, please help everyone keep talk pages readable. -- Irpen 21:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College
--
Molobo
22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The above quote which I entered was deleted by Calgacus
[1]
I have seen larger quotes used on discussion pages. It is most sad to see that users now resort to this kind of vandalism to push their POV. -- Molobo 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
'Unfortunetly discussion on the subject is impossible. Users engaged in discussion with me delete every comment I make, I wish not to be subject to 3RR, but I am powerless against this act of vandalism. -- Molobo 22:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a "huge chunk of external website"? : http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/07tartar.html
In conclusion we might ask ourselves what influence the Tartar-Mongols had on Russia.
(...)
Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College -- Molobo 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I responded there. Molobo, this time the piece you added is OK, I think. I have no intention to delete it. Please do not bold it all either. -- Irpen 22:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, this article - and the disputed entry - is referenced. The disputed quote is actually taken directly from the source [2] - I expected it may be somewhat controversial, so I decided to keep the relevant paragraph unchanged. I don't understand why some people want to deny that Renaissance spread first to the countries close to Italy and then to those further, but it appears that some people would rather argue that Earth is flat before conceding that Poland might have done something to Russia besides invading it (twice, at least) and being ungrateful for occu... I mean, brotherly help after IIWW. Sheeez. If you think that Michael J. Mikos [3], Professor of University of Milkwaukee, is biased or wrong, please provide other ACADEMIC references that say so. Otherwise either expand this article with relevant references or do so at Renaissance in Russia.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The POV that Poland was a civilizator of Russia does exist Well you can hardly argue it was otherwise-here is how Muscovy was seen in Polish culture: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/903/233books.html And there is no denying that Sarmatian literature takes a view of Muscovy that the Russians would dearly love to erase. To a Sarmatian, Muscovy had little to do with European civilization. It was a "rude and barbarous kingdom" to be viewed with pity rather than awe. Sarmatian attitude contrasts sharply with the "powerful brother" image the Russians have tried to build in Slavic countries in the nineteenth century, and also in the Soviet period. -- Molobo 23:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Certainly we should not remove the tag 'just like this', but please explain to me which parts of the article are still POVed? Of course expantion and careful attention to the language would be prudent, but I don't see what is POVed or disputable in the article (especially as it is referenced with an academic source). If there is no basis for the POV tag, than it can be removed, right?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess Bangladesh is more developed then Luxemburg then. -- Molobo 02:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC) 1) Russia is in Europe It isn't about geography but wider cultural and civilisation issues. 2) "catching up" presupposes a unilinear moral conceptualization of history (POV) A rather dubious statement.
and it is not exactly clear that a) Russia was more "backward" than western Europe (POV) I think its pretty clear and quite objective statement that indeed it was. -- Molobo 23:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
No not really, but needs to be fully expanded: "In recent times, Poland has been subjected to Soviet occupation and as result its backward compered to the countries of the West Europe. As a result Poland had to catch up with them in terms of economic development" I would have nothing against such statemant.
I note that there a no words like backward, superior in the article which you imply. Of course it is interesting to see you oppose any mention of "Backwardness", just after you claimed Poland, before it brought in German settlers to urbanize it, could boast little more than a series of fortified cragie lumps with some mud-huts around them. -- Molobo 00:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I merely pointed out that medieval Russia was significantly more urban than Poland, which I'm sure you'd not disagree with I disagree with it, since it is well known that in the period that territory of modern Russia was part of Mongol Empire it was depopulated. -- Molobo 00:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Granted, that was my 'quick fix' adition and the word choice may be somewhat unfortunate, feel free to work on it. On the other hand, it's an addition of the past hour, so I don't think it can be cited as the basis of the 2+ day old POV tag discussion, now can it?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What the article says is that there was an influence of West-European cultural developments on Eastern Europe, which is just a fact. No serious researcher would deny it.
If you would like keep the tag, please explain your objections and cite the corresponding fragments of the article text. Your own phantasy is not the reason to tag the article.-- AndriyK 09:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with removal sonce the edit war stopped. Note that tag stopped the refert war that was just filling the article's history. So, it served its purpose. Of there are still objections, they will be brought up. -- Irpen 23:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Cranach IS NOT a Polish immigrant artist. His works were only commisioned and bought by Poles. Better insert here Hans Vredeman de Vries.
I agree with Cranach, but de Vries WAS NOT a renaissance painter. He established manierism in Gdańsk. I think Michael Lancz von Kitzingen in Kraków and Martin Schoninck in Gdańsk match perfectly.
There schould also be stated in a different sentense that Cranach and Durer influenced polish renaissance painting in the 1 half of the XVIth century, despite they never came to Poland, only their work was commisioned by poles. 217.172.234.156 23:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"Characteristic laicization of life in Renaissance and reformation gave only minor development of sacral art."
This statement is false. Rennaissance gave great developement of sacral art in Poland, in fact it was a period of rebirth of religious art. The Myth of lay renassaince was destroyed by historians of art in the late 50'.
Reformation was a religous movement, that spread in northern Poland from about 1525, so you can't say of a minor developement of religious art because of it. 217.172.234.156 23:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The article says: The Renaissance in Poland (Polish: Odrodzenie, literally 'Rebirth') lasted from the late 15th century to the late 16th century and is widely considered to be the Golden Age of Polish culture.
All the handbooks of the Polish literature I know generally agree that the Renaissance in Poland has its beginnings in the late fifteenth century and lasts until 1620. The first two decades of seventeenth century are marked by the works of the tow excellent poets: Szymon Szymonowic, a pastoral writer and brilliant translator of Tasso's epic poems Piotr Kochanowski. Kameal ( talk) 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Odmeinny charakter poezji w Polsce ostatniego trzydziestolecia XV w. stanowił wielkie novum i swego rodzaju rewelację. Poezja ta, zapoczątkowana zresztą głównie przez cudzoziemców, Włocha Kallimacha i Niemca Konrada Celtisa, niosła już zapowiedź nowych prądów, nowej epoki humanizmu renesansowego płynącego w Włoch do Polski. (page 6)
Historia literatury polskiej w dziesięciu tomach. Tom II. Renesans Bochnia-Kraków-Warszawa has:
Wśród propozycji periodyzacji polskiego renesansu najbardziej przekonywująca i najlepiej udokumentowana jest ta, którą przedstawił w swoich pracach Janusz Pelc. Wyróżnia on tutaj pięć okresów- po pierwsze "poczatki renesansowego humanizmu w Polsce" (od połowy XV w, do ok. 1510 r.), które można by również określić jako prerenesans [...].
A division of a cultural period is always imprecise, thus in the period 1450-1550 medieval traditions coexist in Poland with the renaissance humanism.
I will try to work on this section on upcoming weekend, however I'll post changes here for a grammar correction someone good willing will do I guess. i will also try to gather more references, now being out of my home books.
I've placed the term "Renesans" before "Odrodzenie". The reason is that in contemporary Polish scholarship the French like version "Renesans" has gained wider acceptance, e.g. the main university handbook by Jerzy Ziomek is entitled "Renesans". The "Odrodzenie" being itself a calque of the French term is also acceptable, but it seems a bit obsolete: you can hardly hear anyone talking about his "Odrodzenie's exam results" here in Poland. Polish Language Dictionary defines "Odrodzenie" as "the restitution of the former values" primarily: http://sjp.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=odrodzenie . Having pointed all this above I believe that it could stay. Kameal ( talk) 23:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The following sentences were lifted from this website or are very close to it, please address. [4], which describes itself as based on this printed source: Polish Literature from the Middle Ages to the End of the Eighteenth Century. A Bilingual Anthology, by Michael J. Mikoś, Warsaw: Constans, 1999. The Renaissance belief in the dignity of man and power of his reason found a fertile ground in Poland. Members of Polish intellectual elite, like Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski, Johannes Dantiscus or Jan Łaski maintained contacts with leading European luminaries, including Thomas More, Erasmus and Philip Melanchthon. The portraitists left behind a splendid pictorial gallery of the noble and the wealthy, capturing characteristic features and social position of each person. The center of musical culture was the royal residence in Cracow. The finest works of the period include vocal and instrumental compositions, dances, organ and polyphonic music as well as solemn oratorios and masses. The Tablature, compiled in 1540 b Jan of Lublin, was an extensive collection of all known European organ compositions. Especially popular were compositions for organ and the lute. In 1578, chancellor Jan Zamoyski conceived a bold plan of building the ideal Renaissance city, and he sponsored the creation of Zamość, which quickly became an important administrative, commercial and educational city in Renaissance Poland. Novickas ( talk) 15:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Failed, due to insufficient referencing (many unref paras) and poor structure (overview section is bad style, that's what lead is for). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)