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Respectfully, I couldn't see any sources in support of such blatant original research. Vlad fedorov 08:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is mostly referenced to some web-site as well as articles in the non-scholarly newspapers. I would like to see it either re-sourced to the scholarly sources or the scholarly credentials of the authors of whatever the current sources are to be confirmed.
Scholarly sources includes peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the unversity presses. If, however, the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or political tygodnyk (newspaper), this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable is non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials. Thank you. -- Irpen 21:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Nothing was shown exactly. Once you re-sourced that other article to reliable sources, I withdrew my objections. I request the same done here. -- Irpen 01:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
No, you are wrong. Policies do not make an unscholarly work published in an unscholarly place an RS just because they happen to help Piotrus to advance his POV. Find reliable sources and stop using dubious ones. -- Irpen 06:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Just check what it says at the top of the WP:ATT/FAQ page you refer to. -- Irpen 18:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, this what you call "best elaboration" is neither a policy nor a guideline. Good luck to you with making it either. Until then, please do not refer to dubious writings to get a boost to your point. I don't have to cite a policy to show something is unreliable. It works the other way around. You have to cite a policy that would claim that a writing by a person with non-established academic credentials published in a source with no established academic standing is a reliable source. Until then, the article is non-compliant. -- Irpen 19:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Please do not repeat that something is reliable because it suites your POV. Speculations voiced in the political press cannot be seriously called a reliable source unless authored by an otherwise established figure. Either the author or the source has to have an academic standing. Neither applies to this case. -- Irpen 19:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Incivility ignored. Now, Wikipedia articles should be organized in accordance with Wikipededia policies, guidelines, and, since those cannot address every possible issue, a common sense. Now, you cite the policy that allows sourcing historic articles to unscholarly sources written by unscholarly authors; and if you can't, desist. -- Irpen 21:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Reread this section. Nothing there justifies the sources used in the article. Please be more specific in case I missed something. -- Irpen 21:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, Piotrus, you seem confused. Non-scholarly sources are permitted if they can be shown reliable, like a non-scholarly article in newsmagazine, or even a blog, but authored by a scholar or at least referred to or reviewed favorably by the scholar. A non-scholarly material authored by an unknown person and published by a non-scholarly publication cannot be accepted by default in the article about history. Some of the statements are now backed by a scholarly source. Good start. However, most is still sourced to unacceptable tygodnyk (newspaper) articles. Please address this and also work towards better neutrality.
A couple of suggestions on the latter. The first sentence needs rephrased. It should just say what the subject of the article is, not make an immediate judgment. The latter may be made in the text with a customary, "according to..." acknowledgment. Further, the material about the atrocities committed by the Soviet troops have to be given in the proper context of what these people went through and have seen in their homeland. Hiding it is WP:TE. Try to make the article less publicistic and more scholarly. Currently it looks too "journalistic" so to speak, which is no surprise as its main source is the political press. -- Irpen 06:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The interesting hypothesis that political press writing articles about history signed by someone not known as a historian is acceptable when it suites your POV is worth to be considered, but not at this page. Try to make it a universal rule. Katyn has nothing to do with that in the first place and, besides, I haven't seen the international recognition of Genocide in that case, while horrible it was. IPN's finding that it was a crime against humanity is worthy to be mentioned as an IPN finding, not as a phrase in the lead that starts the article. The article should start with the definition that this incident refers to the events that occurred then and there not the judgmental qualification of whether it constitute the war crime which belong to the body and in an attributed form. Talking about Soviet troops behavior without mentioning a context is an outright violation of NPOV. Since you resort to arguing semantics in response to my good faith objections for three days in row I am tagging the article as per unreliability of sources and NPOV violations. Let the non-involved editors take a look at the dispute. -- Irpen 17:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to end the policy of double standards on this subject. When some people like Piotrus ask for English sources (rather than Russian) for various events of WWII, in a way, I understand. However, that means that events in Poland, especially such controversial ones, need to get an English-speaking coverage, preferably from "academic sources" (said some guy called Piotrus :>) Newspapers can be used as sources, but if the whole article is not based upon them, it does not look like an academic work it shoud be. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Ditto re name, and see the section below for that.
As such, the article, as of now, has the following problems: source reliability, POV (explained above), disputed title and original research. There are four (!) article-wide tags for each of that but as a courtesy, I will only apply those that were applied originally and removed discourteously by known as well as never seen before accounts and IPs (I assume the latter are unrelated to the former.) I would like to remind that speedy undiscussed removal of tags explained well at talk and applied in good faith amounts to vandalism. I expect the IP and mysterious accounts to continue but let's hope it won't prevent a discussion among the old guard. -- Irpen 20:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Registered account, taken personal interest in the topic. Those things were very common when they occupied Poland again. Don't you think category "places of soviet atrocities" would be usefull to guide readers throughout testimony of the terror of Soviet occupation in Poland ? -- MarekZo 21:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
We've been there. This is what your friend calls ad naseum. The sources do not comply with WP:RS and you failed to cite the proper clause that says otherwise. OR, POV and Title problems are on top of that. Say something new or say nothing. Repeated denials are waste of space. -- Irpen 16:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
As it has been explained to Piotrus, ad naseum the Zerkalo Nedeli articles I used were written by otherwise established scholars, a professor of history from Kiev University, a Doctor of Science of the Institute of History of Ukraine of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, etc. I repeatedly asked to provide any credentials of the authors of the particular articles in Polish newspapers and Piotrus refused to give any. As of now, both the source and the author are unscholarly which makes the particular refs dubious.
And actually, it is Zerkalo Nedeli or Dzerkalo Tyzhnya or Mirror Weekly. Read its article about its being the most respectable Ukrainian weekly. Its history sections are always written by established scholars, not journalists and political analysts who write for current events, politics, business and economy and other current sections. The latter would be usable for current events articles, like Ukrainian parliamentary election, 2007. That's where I would use those. -- Irpen 17:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, I request some way to confirm that the current title is the established name of this event in the English-language scholarship. If the other name is established, the other name should be used. If the event has no established name, it has to use a neutral descriptive name rather than the term strongest possible, the naming convention favored by some editors. -- Irpen 21:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, you either discuss seriously, address my concerns or do nothing. If my concerns are simply sabotaged by empty talk, I will tag the article. Your 'Przyszowice liberation' straw man is disgusting and outright offensive both to me and to the people who died at the time. -- Irpen 02:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Let me add that I have some concerns about this article (my attention was drawn to it from T:DYK). All the sources as presented now are apparently from Polish newspapers. I cannot read Polish nor can most editors on this project. Additionally, I have reviewed several databases of English-language academic journals and I can find no reference to this event, or even the village. I am left wondering if it is at all appropriate for this article to be on the English Wikipedia.
Another concern is whether this event, in itself, needs its own article. Atrocities of this sort were plentiful on all sides and in East Prussia especially. I am personally acquainted with several East Prussian refugees who witnessed these kinds of events. With respect to the dead, the murder of some 70 civilians (and subsequent cover-up) is not unusual and we have articles on similar events that have been documented in peer-reviewed journals. It might make sense to merge this information into Institute of National Remembrance or Red Army atrocities, but as I said I remain unconvinced that this article, in itself, should exist. Mackensen (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotus:
Your arguing here was not only unconvincing to me, but obviously to others as well, as you can see above. That you used help from some dubious anon who revert warred on your behalf does add your claims any more credibility. -- Irpen 02:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason to waste time in repeating to you something that is in plain view which you refuse to recognize despite other editors see it clearly. "The untagged article version you prefer will not be achieved via edit warring" or off-/on-wiki calls for your friends to help you in running revert wars. In the post above there are some recommendations to you. Please take them as a set of starting points. Good luck. -- Irpen 06:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, you and I have heard each other and are not able to come to an agreement. I say white, you say black and continuation of this is useless. One of us is wrong. In such case, we have to see what other editors say on the matter. So far, other editors displayed similar concerns to the ones I outlined. -- Irpen 04:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to note that for several days key facts have been verified with scholarly publication by Institute of National Remembrance publication ( [1]). If there are specific facts that are still considered unreliable, please point them out - but currently the article is verified both with scholarly IPN work, and mainsteam Polish newspapers. As for NPOV, please point out specific possibly biased statements, and we can discuss them here, claims of NPOV problems without any examples are not valid.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as the comparison with VA goes, it is plain nonsense. VA is a recent event. Przyszowice (if it happened like you describe) would have been covered by sources other than newspaper and the publications of the institutions organized and funded specifically for "investigating" and publicizing various massacres. VA massacre is a current event and covering such is exactly a newspapers business. Coverage of current events by respected newspapers is considered reliable specifically because this coverage is what respected newspapers are expected to to best. But newspapers are not a normal forum for historic writings. History is covered with books and historian's articles in professional journals. Of course, a historian who established his name in the normal way can choose to write elsewhere. In such case, his writing is notable and can be referred to. You failed to establish this being the case. --
Irpen
02:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Editorially-controlled, fact-checked, mainstream newspapers are reliable sources. Information may certainly be sourced to them. If you disagree with what's in the newspaper, or believe they've made an error, the solution is to write to the newspaper in question, explaining why you believe they are in error. If they publish a subsequent correction, you may certainly cite that. You may also find another source (for example, a peer-reviewed scholarly paper) which may be of greater reliability than the newspaper, and disagrees with some of its findings. In that case, you may certainly bring up that source material. What you may not do, is use your own interpretations. If you believe further study into the matter is required, encourage people to do that. But this is not the place to correct any perceived errors made by sources. If you have strong evidence of an error in a source, ask them to correct. If they won't, ask someone else to investigate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Another related question. There is a Category:Japanese war crimes. This is not Category:War crimes in Japan. One could suggest a couple of similar broad categories like Nazi war crimes (there is only article about this subject) and Soviet war crimes or even Communist war crimes where this aricle belongs. Biophys 19:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Sorry, there is already Category:Nazi war crimes; it just happened that many articles are not properly categorized. Biophys 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why Nazi, not German if the Nazism was German? Xx236 16:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Would you please explain me what do you mean, I'm sorry I don't understand both of you. I don't call contemporary Russia - Soviet Union or Muscovy. The III Reich was a German state, not a Nazi state. Contemporary Poland isn't Polish-Lithuanian. Xx236 08:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Without presenting a single new artgument. Piotrus and Halibutt resumed tag-warring. On the side note, Piotrus tried to modify WP:RS even to fit this article (without success). This is plain silly. Nothing was done to resolve the dispute.
On a separate note, Halibutt, please avoid using the roll-back button. This is very unhelpful and earns you no points. In fact, there is no reason in the world to do it in the cases like this.
Thanks, -- Irpen 06:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Askari Mark, thank you for your feedback. Let me address several points, both raised by you and Piotrus. IPN's getting the lustration functions lately is not a drammatic event for the IPN itself. Even prior to that it was created as a governmental institution with the prosecuting authority and was funded as such. Yes, it is a valid source, but only with the caveat that everything referred to IPN only should be clearly preceeded with "According to the IPN.." with the link being mandatory, as it would take the reader to the IPN article and allow the reader to make up one's mind how much the particular source is skewed. So, IPN published info is "usable" and "attributable" but not fully reliable. Piotrus' claim that it is reliable simply because PL gov considers it reliable does not deserve even a rebuttal. Polish government is not an authority in history. Academic community is...
Further, Piotrus claims that his opinion that articles on history published in Polish political press are reliable has been met by approval at WP:RS talk. This claim is false. He cherry-picks some quotes from the WP:RS talk page discussion. Looking at the talk page of WP:RS, we find other comments that Piotrus preferred not to quote. Askari Mark wrote: "I tend to agree more with Irpen’s comment: “Scholarly sources includes peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the university presses. If, however, the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or political tygodnik (newspaper), this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable is non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials.”
Further down this very page we find another entry by Askari Mark: "Another key question is whether it is desired to use the article in question as a citation for non-controversial aspects of the topic; an accomplished journalist with good investigative skills could be expected to handle these well, but if what is being cited is controversial, the journalist might be out of their league, and even if they aren’t “out of their league”, they often will run into the “problem of space” inherent in their media, which precludes a fair and balanced treatment of the differing viewpoints." Obviously the subject is controversial.
Much of the article is not even referenced to IPN but to the newspapers which is not authority in the historic science, particularly if the article is not authored by a historian.
This above was about reliability.
As for the neutrality, where do I start? Why not from the start of the article where we get the following lead: "The PM was a war crime..." Totally inappropriate. The lead should define the subject of the article, the event, the place, the time, not make an immediate judgment. Something like "The [subject of the article] refers to the events that took place...." And somewhere in the middle. "The investigation by IPN found the incident to qualify under the definiton of the war crime", or something like this.
Piotrus and Halibutt, please take these recommendations into consideration and stop this meaningless edit war. -- Irpen 03:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
First, lustration is irrelevant to that article in particular and to IPN research in general. Second, IPN is just as government-affilated as publicly funded universities or various government research institutions worldwide (for example, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). While this should be raised at the IPN's talk, I see no reason why IPN, a research institute with several full-time professors and dozens of other academics is not to be considered reliable. As for the newspapers, this is still being debated, and we are waiting for input from more editors. I will attempt to address the single POV issue you raised - war crime reference - in my forthcoming edit.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 03:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
As for the events refed to the modern non-academic newspaper only, I marked only those that refer to the remote past. I did not mark anything that references the modern events. -- Irpen 05:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
On a side note, adding the tags again and again without disputing anything at the talk page is not a good idea. And as to Irpen's suggestion - nope. I will use rollback since that's precisely what it's for. It's much quicker when reverting vandals. Why should I waste any more of my time on them when there's an easier way? // Halibu tt 17:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Miechowicach
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Przyszowice massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Respectfully, I couldn't see any sources in support of such blatant original research. Vlad fedorov 08:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is mostly referenced to some web-site as well as articles in the non-scholarly newspapers. I would like to see it either re-sourced to the scholarly sources or the scholarly credentials of the authors of whatever the current sources are to be confirmed.
Scholarly sources includes peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the unversity presses. If, however, the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or political tygodnyk (newspaper), this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable is non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials. Thank you. -- Irpen 21:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Nothing was shown exactly. Once you re-sourced that other article to reliable sources, I withdrew my objections. I request the same done here. -- Irpen 01:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
No, you are wrong. Policies do not make an unscholarly work published in an unscholarly place an RS just because they happen to help Piotrus to advance his POV. Find reliable sources and stop using dubious ones. -- Irpen 06:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Just check what it says at the top of the WP:ATT/FAQ page you refer to. -- Irpen 18:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, this what you call "best elaboration" is neither a policy nor a guideline. Good luck to you with making it either. Until then, please do not refer to dubious writings to get a boost to your point. I don't have to cite a policy to show something is unreliable. It works the other way around. You have to cite a policy that would claim that a writing by a person with non-established academic credentials published in a source with no established academic standing is a reliable source. Until then, the article is non-compliant. -- Irpen 19:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Please do not repeat that something is reliable because it suites your POV. Speculations voiced in the political press cannot be seriously called a reliable source unless authored by an otherwise established figure. Either the author or the source has to have an academic standing. Neither applies to this case. -- Irpen 19:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Incivility ignored. Now, Wikipedia articles should be organized in accordance with Wikipededia policies, guidelines, and, since those cannot address every possible issue, a common sense. Now, you cite the policy that allows sourcing historic articles to unscholarly sources written by unscholarly authors; and if you can't, desist. -- Irpen 21:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Reread this section. Nothing there justifies the sources used in the article. Please be more specific in case I missed something. -- Irpen 21:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, Piotrus, you seem confused. Non-scholarly sources are permitted if they can be shown reliable, like a non-scholarly article in newsmagazine, or even a blog, but authored by a scholar or at least referred to or reviewed favorably by the scholar. A non-scholarly material authored by an unknown person and published by a non-scholarly publication cannot be accepted by default in the article about history. Some of the statements are now backed by a scholarly source. Good start. However, most is still sourced to unacceptable tygodnyk (newspaper) articles. Please address this and also work towards better neutrality.
A couple of suggestions on the latter. The first sentence needs rephrased. It should just say what the subject of the article is, not make an immediate judgment. The latter may be made in the text with a customary, "according to..." acknowledgment. Further, the material about the atrocities committed by the Soviet troops have to be given in the proper context of what these people went through and have seen in their homeland. Hiding it is WP:TE. Try to make the article less publicistic and more scholarly. Currently it looks too "journalistic" so to speak, which is no surprise as its main source is the political press. -- Irpen 06:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The interesting hypothesis that political press writing articles about history signed by someone not known as a historian is acceptable when it suites your POV is worth to be considered, but not at this page. Try to make it a universal rule. Katyn has nothing to do with that in the first place and, besides, I haven't seen the international recognition of Genocide in that case, while horrible it was. IPN's finding that it was a crime against humanity is worthy to be mentioned as an IPN finding, not as a phrase in the lead that starts the article. The article should start with the definition that this incident refers to the events that occurred then and there not the judgmental qualification of whether it constitute the war crime which belong to the body and in an attributed form. Talking about Soviet troops behavior without mentioning a context is an outright violation of NPOV. Since you resort to arguing semantics in response to my good faith objections for three days in row I am tagging the article as per unreliability of sources and NPOV violations. Let the non-involved editors take a look at the dispute. -- Irpen 17:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to end the policy of double standards on this subject. When some people like Piotrus ask for English sources (rather than Russian) for various events of WWII, in a way, I understand. However, that means that events in Poland, especially such controversial ones, need to get an English-speaking coverage, preferably from "academic sources" (said some guy called Piotrus :>) Newspapers can be used as sources, but if the whole article is not based upon them, it does not look like an academic work it shoud be. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Ditto re name, and see the section below for that.
As such, the article, as of now, has the following problems: source reliability, POV (explained above), disputed title and original research. There are four (!) article-wide tags for each of that but as a courtesy, I will only apply those that were applied originally and removed discourteously by known as well as never seen before accounts and IPs (I assume the latter are unrelated to the former.) I would like to remind that speedy undiscussed removal of tags explained well at talk and applied in good faith amounts to vandalism. I expect the IP and mysterious accounts to continue but let's hope it won't prevent a discussion among the old guard. -- Irpen 20:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Registered account, taken personal interest in the topic. Those things were very common when they occupied Poland again. Don't you think category "places of soviet atrocities" would be usefull to guide readers throughout testimony of the terror of Soviet occupation in Poland ? -- MarekZo 21:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
We've been there. This is what your friend calls ad naseum. The sources do not comply with WP:RS and you failed to cite the proper clause that says otherwise. OR, POV and Title problems are on top of that. Say something new or say nothing. Repeated denials are waste of space. -- Irpen 16:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
As it has been explained to Piotrus, ad naseum the Zerkalo Nedeli articles I used were written by otherwise established scholars, a professor of history from Kiev University, a Doctor of Science of the Institute of History of Ukraine of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, etc. I repeatedly asked to provide any credentials of the authors of the particular articles in Polish newspapers and Piotrus refused to give any. As of now, both the source and the author are unscholarly which makes the particular refs dubious.
And actually, it is Zerkalo Nedeli or Dzerkalo Tyzhnya or Mirror Weekly. Read its article about its being the most respectable Ukrainian weekly. Its history sections are always written by established scholars, not journalists and political analysts who write for current events, politics, business and economy and other current sections. The latter would be usable for current events articles, like Ukrainian parliamentary election, 2007. That's where I would use those. -- Irpen 17:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, I request some way to confirm that the current title is the established name of this event in the English-language scholarship. If the other name is established, the other name should be used. If the event has no established name, it has to use a neutral descriptive name rather than the term strongest possible, the naming convention favored by some editors. -- Irpen 21:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, you either discuss seriously, address my concerns or do nothing. If my concerns are simply sabotaged by empty talk, I will tag the article. Your 'Przyszowice liberation' straw man is disgusting and outright offensive both to me and to the people who died at the time. -- Irpen 02:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Let me add that I have some concerns about this article (my attention was drawn to it from T:DYK). All the sources as presented now are apparently from Polish newspapers. I cannot read Polish nor can most editors on this project. Additionally, I have reviewed several databases of English-language academic journals and I can find no reference to this event, or even the village. I am left wondering if it is at all appropriate for this article to be on the English Wikipedia.
Another concern is whether this event, in itself, needs its own article. Atrocities of this sort were plentiful on all sides and in East Prussia especially. I am personally acquainted with several East Prussian refugees who witnessed these kinds of events. With respect to the dead, the murder of some 70 civilians (and subsequent cover-up) is not unusual and we have articles on similar events that have been documented in peer-reviewed journals. It might make sense to merge this information into Institute of National Remembrance or Red Army atrocities, but as I said I remain unconvinced that this article, in itself, should exist. Mackensen (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Piotus:
Your arguing here was not only unconvincing to me, but obviously to others as well, as you can see above. That you used help from some dubious anon who revert warred on your behalf does add your claims any more credibility. -- Irpen 02:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason to waste time in repeating to you something that is in plain view which you refuse to recognize despite other editors see it clearly. "The untagged article version you prefer will not be achieved via edit warring" or off-/on-wiki calls for your friends to help you in running revert wars. In the post above there are some recommendations to you. Please take them as a set of starting points. Good luck. -- Irpen 06:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, you and I have heard each other and are not able to come to an agreement. I say white, you say black and continuation of this is useless. One of us is wrong. In such case, we have to see what other editors say on the matter. So far, other editors displayed similar concerns to the ones I outlined. -- Irpen 04:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to note that for several days key facts have been verified with scholarly publication by Institute of National Remembrance publication ( [1]). If there are specific facts that are still considered unreliable, please point them out - but currently the article is verified both with scholarly IPN work, and mainsteam Polish newspapers. As for NPOV, please point out specific possibly biased statements, and we can discuss them here, claims of NPOV problems without any examples are not valid.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as the comparison with VA goes, it is plain nonsense. VA is a recent event. Przyszowice (if it happened like you describe) would have been covered by sources other than newspaper and the publications of the institutions organized and funded specifically for "investigating" and publicizing various massacres. VA massacre is a current event and covering such is exactly a newspapers business. Coverage of current events by respected newspapers is considered reliable specifically because this coverage is what respected newspapers are expected to to best. But newspapers are not a normal forum for historic writings. History is covered with books and historian's articles in professional journals. Of course, a historian who established his name in the normal way can choose to write elsewhere. In such case, his writing is notable and can be referred to. You failed to establish this being the case. --
Irpen
02:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Editorially-controlled, fact-checked, mainstream newspapers are reliable sources. Information may certainly be sourced to them. If you disagree with what's in the newspaper, or believe they've made an error, the solution is to write to the newspaper in question, explaining why you believe they are in error. If they publish a subsequent correction, you may certainly cite that. You may also find another source (for example, a peer-reviewed scholarly paper) which may be of greater reliability than the newspaper, and disagrees with some of its findings. In that case, you may certainly bring up that source material. What you may not do, is use your own interpretations. If you believe further study into the matter is required, encourage people to do that. But this is not the place to correct any perceived errors made by sources. If you have strong evidence of an error in a source, ask them to correct. If they won't, ask someone else to investigate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Another related question. There is a Category:Japanese war crimes. This is not Category:War crimes in Japan. One could suggest a couple of similar broad categories like Nazi war crimes (there is only article about this subject) and Soviet war crimes or even Communist war crimes where this aricle belongs. Biophys 19:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Sorry, there is already Category:Nazi war crimes; it just happened that many articles are not properly categorized. Biophys 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why Nazi, not German if the Nazism was German? Xx236 16:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Would you please explain me what do you mean, I'm sorry I don't understand both of you. I don't call contemporary Russia - Soviet Union or Muscovy. The III Reich was a German state, not a Nazi state. Contemporary Poland isn't Polish-Lithuanian. Xx236 08:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Without presenting a single new artgument. Piotrus and Halibutt resumed tag-warring. On the side note, Piotrus tried to modify WP:RS even to fit this article (without success). This is plain silly. Nothing was done to resolve the dispute.
On a separate note, Halibutt, please avoid using the roll-back button. This is very unhelpful and earns you no points. In fact, there is no reason in the world to do it in the cases like this.
Thanks, -- Irpen 06:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Askari Mark, thank you for your feedback. Let me address several points, both raised by you and Piotrus. IPN's getting the lustration functions lately is not a drammatic event for the IPN itself. Even prior to that it was created as a governmental institution with the prosecuting authority and was funded as such. Yes, it is a valid source, but only with the caveat that everything referred to IPN only should be clearly preceeded with "According to the IPN.." with the link being mandatory, as it would take the reader to the IPN article and allow the reader to make up one's mind how much the particular source is skewed. So, IPN published info is "usable" and "attributable" but not fully reliable. Piotrus' claim that it is reliable simply because PL gov considers it reliable does not deserve even a rebuttal. Polish government is not an authority in history. Academic community is...
Further, Piotrus claims that his opinion that articles on history published in Polish political press are reliable has been met by approval at WP:RS talk. This claim is false. He cherry-picks some quotes from the WP:RS talk page discussion. Looking at the talk page of WP:RS, we find other comments that Piotrus preferred not to quote. Askari Mark wrote: "I tend to agree more with Irpen’s comment: “Scholarly sources includes peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the university presses. If, however, the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or political tygodnik (newspaper), this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable is non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials.”
Further down this very page we find another entry by Askari Mark: "Another key question is whether it is desired to use the article in question as a citation for non-controversial aspects of the topic; an accomplished journalist with good investigative skills could be expected to handle these well, but if what is being cited is controversial, the journalist might be out of their league, and even if they aren’t “out of their league”, they often will run into the “problem of space” inherent in their media, which precludes a fair and balanced treatment of the differing viewpoints." Obviously the subject is controversial.
Much of the article is not even referenced to IPN but to the newspapers which is not authority in the historic science, particularly if the article is not authored by a historian.
This above was about reliability.
As for the neutrality, where do I start? Why not from the start of the article where we get the following lead: "The PM was a war crime..." Totally inappropriate. The lead should define the subject of the article, the event, the place, the time, not make an immediate judgment. Something like "The [subject of the article] refers to the events that took place...." And somewhere in the middle. "The investigation by IPN found the incident to qualify under the definiton of the war crime", or something like this.
Piotrus and Halibutt, please take these recommendations into consideration and stop this meaningless edit war. -- Irpen 03:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
First, lustration is irrelevant to that article in particular and to IPN research in general. Second, IPN is just as government-affilated as publicly funded universities or various government research institutions worldwide (for example, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). While this should be raised at the IPN's talk, I see no reason why IPN, a research institute with several full-time professors and dozens of other academics is not to be considered reliable. As for the newspapers, this is still being debated, and we are waiting for input from more editors. I will attempt to address the single POV issue you raised - war crime reference - in my forthcoming edit.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 03:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
As for the events refed to the modern non-academic newspaper only, I marked only those that refer to the remote past. I did not mark anything that references the modern events. -- Irpen 05:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
On a side note, adding the tags again and again without disputing anything at the talk page is not a good idea. And as to Irpen's suggestion - nope. I will use rollback since that's precisely what it's for. It's much quicker when reverting vandals. Why should I waste any more of my time on them when there's an easier way? // Halibu tt 17:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Miechowicach
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)