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Please note that the Ponary massacre has been discusseed previously at Talk:Paneriai, until it was split into it's separate article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a native speaker, so I may be wrong, but I understand a massacre as something what happened once, during a short period of time, eg. Kaunas massacre, Jedwabne massacre. Killings during years aren't in my opinion a massacre. See also Massacre, which confirms my position. Xx236 14:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the last issue of Gazeta Polska IPN Gdańsk doesn't prossecute Lithuanian executioners of Ponary. A local law court will decide. Families of the victims protest. Xx236 15:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Article one sided interpret numbers of victims, Genocide and Resistance Research Centre and Bubnys notes that 100 000 victims is exaggerated [1], [2]. Mostly killed Jews, and as noted in provided sources Polish victims were hundreds not thousands, such inaccuracy happed “thanks” to “works” to contributors like Helena Pasierbska, while article itself do not make any disclaimer on her, while Lithuanian and Polish scholars identified her, lets say – one sided. Another one article - not mentioned Belorussians, who there also killed here, small number but still. About Ypatingasis burys, it participated in killings at the beginning of 1941 later its actives was limited and nonexistent like in 1944, nothing is motioned about killers later fates etc. Generally article is not NOPV, this way it is tagged. M.K. 10:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll be kind and call it tendentious editing, even though it borders extreme on POV pushing that borders vandalism. I am within my rights to add related events in the See also categories. That the author of Zydokomuna, would take it upon himself to remove Babi Yar, or the other removed events, is bizarre. The readers of WP can make the determination of the relevance of the suggested links to the subject matter at hand. Dr. Dan 19:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not important who added Babi Yar to this article. What's important is who removed it and that I wish to replace it. Whether the Holocaust template is there or not, is not a sufficient reason to remove it if I choose to put it back in the See also: category. Furthermore unlike Babi Yar, Bogdanovka is virtually unknown and is an appropriate link as well. You are not some final arbitrator as to whether these links belong under the See also linking mechanism. Its unfortunate that you didn't make the effort to remove the false information regarding 7,500 Polish POWS being killed here (it was in the Paneriai article for over two years until this month), with the same gusto. Dr. Dan 20:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain me logically, why Babi Yar is mentioned twice? Xx236 15:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
How do the articles listed under "See also" expand the topic of this article ? -- Lysy talk 20:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not doubt, that annexation of Vilnius region in 1939 October by Lithuanian Republic (this one should be NPOV'ed, as per many articles talk) is not some fact unknown to our dearest Piotrus. So eventually tose cities became Lithuanian, and this fact somehow got omitted. (and of course, please, would you care to explain do you really believe Vilnius region was annexed by Lithuania in 1991, as your dearest friend Halibutt stted? (ref's please)) I'm really sick and tired of your continuing selective approach to the material you're copy-pasting in between articles, without even reading it. I know, such a renowned administrator has not a second to read a line further, than google search (be it books or plain google-sercg) suggests. As per POV this time - if you really think, that Ypatingasis būrys was called so by Germans read this - Wykonawcami mordów byli żołnierze narodowości litewskiej z oddziału egzekucyjnego tzw. "Ypatingas burys"(Oddział Specjalny). Rekrutowali się oni przeważnie spośród członków paramilitarnej organizacji litewskiej "Lietuvos Sauliu Sajunga" (Związek Strzelców Litewskich). Organizatorem i komendantem tego znanego z niebywałych okrucieństw Sonderkommando, olicjalnie przydzielonego do gestapo, był Niemiec Martin Weiss. [6]. This reference is quite messy, and absolutely unreferenced, although even Polish source does not call that unit Lithuanian, it calls it Sonderkommando. Just citing it as an example of selective reading (without trying to improve Ypatingasis būrys article)) you again showed your Google generation approach. You did find it on google didn't you? I'm looking forward to have another portion of your in-famous intimidations to be persecuted if it does not suit your POV.Have a good day-- Lokyz 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is about Ponary massacre. Not about Ypatingasis burys (or their ethnic composition), not about Armia Krajowa or Red Army (nor their ethnic composition), not about Katyn, not about Jedwabne, and not Kielce, nor Auschwitz, nor Poland, nor Lithuania, nor Second World War, nor about many other things that are irrelevant to this article. Please don't push some POVs by inserting information here that has no relevance to that article. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
After supposed anon attack, user:Lysy by restoring text lost various information. Could you Lysy fully restore it? M.K. 20:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed information about ethnic composition of Ypatingasis būrys purposefully. Firstly because this article is not about Ypatingasis būrys but about the massacre. Secondly, because it fed the unnecessary revert wars. For the "disputed numbers", who disputes them ? As for the Stutthof inmates, they have been kept in the pit holes for months when they were forced to crush the bones. Why would you assume that they were stupid enough not to be aware of what was happening ? As for the Soviet monuments in Paneriai, they are completely mute about Jewish or Polish victims, and they clearly make an impression that the victims were Soviet POWs only. -- Lysy talk 21:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
M.K: Expecting references on obvious things is just ridiculous. Are you aware of any Soviet commemoration of Jewish or Polish victims of Paneriai ? Have you seen the Paneriai museum at all ? I am surprised and saddened to see a Lithuanian supporting the Soviet ways to rewrite the history of Lithuania. -- Lysy talk 09:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
One remark. Detailed ethnic composition of the killer's squad indeed belongs to a squad's article. I mean, if the unit included a couple of Poles and Russians it does not change the overall picture. If only Piotrus was similarly following the approach that narrow stuff belongs to narrow articles less selectively unlike taking one on the other side based on which approach would better benefit the POV he is pushing in the current article. Here, he supports a sound approach of keeping the narrow and marginally important stuff to where it belongs. He behaved quite differently in connection with the sad incident of Zaluski Library whose collection was taken to Saint Petersburg by the order of the Russian Empress to expand the Imperial Public Library. Not only Piotrus rightly mentions this episode in the Zaluski Library article. Not only even he finds it warranted to describe this very incident again in the Russian National Library article. He even launched a fierce revert war to insert the said info into the Russian Enlightenment article, claiming the logic:
By this logic Piotrus (and Lysy who helped Piotrus in revert warring aimed at inflaming the RE article) should support a detailed ethnic composition of the death squad included in the article about the crime perpetuated by the said squad. But for some reason, the loosely relevant stuff needs to be included or not included in the articles according to a rule whether such inclusion fits certain agenda or not.
On a side note, Lysy's remark about his being "surprised and saddened to see a Lithuanian supporting the Soviet ways to rewrite the history of Lithuania" is worth of a strong reprimand. While this is not the worse example of ethnic talk I've seen from this editor, I hope he will desist from any of that from now on. -- Irpen 09:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The issue at hand is that this minor detail indeed does not belong to the article where it is so loosely relevant. Similar to how the transfer of the Zaluski library collection does not belong to the RE article (it may be mentioned in the RNL though), or how the Russo-Japanese War war article does not benefit from revert warring aimed at adding there some Polish grievances [10] or every article where Vilnius is mentioned does not need the Polish name of the city and an elaboration on the percentage of the Polish population century by century.
Piotrus, and I am sorry that only by bringing up the tu quoque argument one is able to make you admit something which is plain obvious. There was never ever consensus at RE. Read its talk. Some people just got tired by yours and Lysy's persistence at the time. I am glad we can now finally find a consensus on this issue. -- Irpen 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I think we can put this matter to rest as it is at least on this issue. We have an undisputable fact of the role of YB in this massacre and we just say that this was a Litnuanian police unit in this article. Whether it also included some Poles and Russians does not change much in this article context. At the same time, this referenced info clearly can be mentioned in YB article and the true facts poperly referenced is not "Lithuanian propaganda" in any way. If I can draw an analogy, the issue of the complicity of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) in anti-Polish and anti-Jewish events is often brought up. Nevertheless, at times some Jews served in UPA as doctors. This by itself does not raise the question of the role of the Jews in the massacres of Polish villages committed by UPA. The notable and complex UPA-Jewish relationship is mentioned in UPA article and nowehere else. -- Irpen 02:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Good and agreed. I remove the word Polish from the Blue Police article, because squads of that police didn't receive orders from Polish authorities. Xx236 12:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
By Lithuanian propaganda I mean that Dan puts the same statement into several articles. Either we put the same statements into many articles so I put the camp information into Lake Seliger, or we apply some economy and DAn doesn't put Vilnius was transferred to Lithuania which considered the previous eighteen years as an occupation by Poland of its capital into Vilnius University. A youngsters in love engrave name of the beloved girl everywhere, but you are an editor. BTW, if the Lithuanian POV is there, Polish, Jewish and Belarussian POVs should be also included. Xx236 13:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Xx236 13:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
What exactly was the role of Ypatingasis būrys in the mass-murder in Ponary ? -- Lysy talk 09:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Lysy what are you doing for heaven's sake, why did you remove the official name of the unit Special SD and German Security Police Squad and suddenly renamed it again to Lithuanian Ypatingasis būrys? It was German Police unit, although consisting of Lithuanians. And this Lithuanian is misleading. You're making this article an object to another ongoing revert war.-- Lokyz 11:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Do we replace the same way the Blue Police by German Police in GG? Xx236 12:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The Blue Police wasn't a police, because it didn't have common command. Any local police was commanded by the local German SS and police commander. Where is the Lithuanian police described here? Xx236 16:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Again: What exactly was the role of
Ypatingasis būrys in the mass-murder in Ponary ?
Was Ypatingasis būrys a German or a Lithuanian unit ? --
Lysy
talk
15:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states that the murder took place near the railway station. Would it not be more correct to state that they happened in the forest near Paneriai ? -- Lysy talk 11:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Need exact citations and translations of referenced sentence which starts: It was only on 22 Octoer, 2000, a decade after the.. M.K. 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Is the Blue Police Polish according to the above?
Lithuanians also participated in killings alongside with Germans, Poles and Russians. is a masterpiece in the context of the Ponary massacre. Xx236 11:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Poles should inform what's going on in Lithuania. Strange.? Xx236 11:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
If you tag something there is no need to dedicate it for me, dear Piotrus. Is it some kind of flirt with me? Should I tag Jedwabne massacre "{{ wikiproject:Poland}} for my dear Piotrus"? STOP STALKING ME!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lokyz ( talk • contribs).
Frankly I do not see the purpose of the "for Lokyz" dedication either. Anyway, I suggest that you guys use your userspace rather than articles' talk pages if you feel you have to exchange the "gestures of good will" or such. -- Lysy talk 18:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
First Wikipedians are treated to the article Zydokomuna, now its author and an "administrator" is treating us to nazi propaganda posters. Strikes me as shameful. Dr. Dan 14:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The poster is rather relevant, as it is a direct evidence of Nazi anti-Jewish and anti-Soviet propaganda directed at Lithuanians, which aimed to increase support among Lithuanians for the final solution of the 'Jewish problem' (and to stress Nazis as enemies of the Soviets). As such propaganda was obviously successfull in recruiting Ypatingasis būrys volunteers and assorted auxiliaries, I don't understand why you find its inclusion objectionable. Wikipedia should not censor facts (textual or graphical), no matter how offensive some may find them today.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone reduce the amount of superscripts on the first few sentences of this article? Maybe compress them into one big footnote. Horvat Den 17:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
P.P., the Final Solution as it is now called and known, was implemented in Wannsee, in 1942. Although the murder of Jews took place in the Baltic States earlier (doubt that you personally consider Paneriai, part of the Baltic States), this anti-Semitic barbarity also had a long association with Poland prior to the Holocaust, (see Pinsk massacre), and after that horror, (see Kielce Pogrom). Your reference is too general, does not mention Lithuania specifically, and as a consequence, I chose to remove it again. If you wish to play more mind games with this outrageous anti-Lithuanian bias, go for it, and you will get a tsunami of references to Polish anti-Semitism. To try to "make hay" out out the sad fact that the Jews first in the line of the Nazi policy to kill Jews, were in the Baltic States, is so bogus and actually surprising that you have fallen so low in our debates. Should we think that the fact that the Nazis gave Poland the "honor" of being the site of the most death camps somehow relate or show Polish complicity in the Nazi's policy? Do back off of this one. Dr. Dan 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Although P.P. continues to create a bellicose attitude regarding the Baltic States with his recent edits, we at least have the acknowlegement that Paneriai, a suburb of Vilnius, was/is part of the Baltic States, rather than of Poland. O.K. Dr. Dan 22:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Piotrowski on p.167 ( [13]) gives a list of how many Poles were executed and when, according to Polish resistance. The list must be incomplete, or other estimates exaggerated (he doesn't state that the list is comprehensive), but it adds up to only about 1,000 victims. On p. 174 ( [14]) he quotes two Polish historians: Longin Tomaszewski's "estimate for ethnic Poles is several thousands", Zdisław A. Siemaszko writes about 1,700 including many AK members. So the 20,000 estimate may be too high.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The article states that "the Jewish culture in Vilnius [was] one of the greatest in Europe". Can this assertion be defined or qualified somehow? I mean, "greatest" as in oldest, most established, largest, most distinct, wealthiest, contributed the most to literature or the fine arts... what made it "one of the greatest"? If this statement can't be further developed, I suggest alternate wording, less POV. Boneyard90 ( talk) 00:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The article states that there was a denial by the Soviets, but as far as I can see there was no denial, just a generalization that the Jews were Soviet citizens, which was most likely accurate. Andries ( talk) 21:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Not a Polish propaganda. Soviets didn't deny the massacre, they denied citizenship (Poles, Jews) of murdered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.187.202 ( talk) 07:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
The word Russian means frequently Soviet citizens of differen't nationalities. Xx236 ( talk) 11:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
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The perpetrators of the crime were members of special operational groups consisting of officers of the German police, security service, Gestapo and the Lithuanian special unit "Ypatingasis Burys"."
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Please note that the Ponary massacre has been discusseed previously at Talk:Paneriai, until it was split into it's separate article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a native speaker, so I may be wrong, but I understand a massacre as something what happened once, during a short period of time, eg. Kaunas massacre, Jedwabne massacre. Killings during years aren't in my opinion a massacre. See also Massacre, which confirms my position. Xx236 14:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the last issue of Gazeta Polska IPN Gdańsk doesn't prossecute Lithuanian executioners of Ponary. A local law court will decide. Families of the victims protest. Xx236 15:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Article one sided interpret numbers of victims, Genocide and Resistance Research Centre and Bubnys notes that 100 000 victims is exaggerated [1], [2]. Mostly killed Jews, and as noted in provided sources Polish victims were hundreds not thousands, such inaccuracy happed “thanks” to “works” to contributors like Helena Pasierbska, while article itself do not make any disclaimer on her, while Lithuanian and Polish scholars identified her, lets say – one sided. Another one article - not mentioned Belorussians, who there also killed here, small number but still. About Ypatingasis burys, it participated in killings at the beginning of 1941 later its actives was limited and nonexistent like in 1944, nothing is motioned about killers later fates etc. Generally article is not NOPV, this way it is tagged. M.K. 10:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll be kind and call it tendentious editing, even though it borders extreme on POV pushing that borders vandalism. I am within my rights to add related events in the See also categories. That the author of Zydokomuna, would take it upon himself to remove Babi Yar, or the other removed events, is bizarre. The readers of WP can make the determination of the relevance of the suggested links to the subject matter at hand. Dr. Dan 19:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not important who added Babi Yar to this article. What's important is who removed it and that I wish to replace it. Whether the Holocaust template is there or not, is not a sufficient reason to remove it if I choose to put it back in the See also: category. Furthermore unlike Babi Yar, Bogdanovka is virtually unknown and is an appropriate link as well. You are not some final arbitrator as to whether these links belong under the See also linking mechanism. Its unfortunate that you didn't make the effort to remove the false information regarding 7,500 Polish POWS being killed here (it was in the Paneriai article for over two years until this month), with the same gusto. Dr. Dan 20:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain me logically, why Babi Yar is mentioned twice? Xx236 15:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
How do the articles listed under "See also" expand the topic of this article ? -- Lysy talk 20:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not doubt, that annexation of Vilnius region in 1939 October by Lithuanian Republic (this one should be NPOV'ed, as per many articles talk) is not some fact unknown to our dearest Piotrus. So eventually tose cities became Lithuanian, and this fact somehow got omitted. (and of course, please, would you care to explain do you really believe Vilnius region was annexed by Lithuania in 1991, as your dearest friend Halibutt stted? (ref's please)) I'm really sick and tired of your continuing selective approach to the material you're copy-pasting in between articles, without even reading it. I know, such a renowned administrator has not a second to read a line further, than google search (be it books or plain google-sercg) suggests. As per POV this time - if you really think, that Ypatingasis būrys was called so by Germans read this - Wykonawcami mordów byli żołnierze narodowości litewskiej z oddziału egzekucyjnego tzw. "Ypatingas burys"(Oddział Specjalny). Rekrutowali się oni przeważnie spośród członków paramilitarnej organizacji litewskiej "Lietuvos Sauliu Sajunga" (Związek Strzelców Litewskich). Organizatorem i komendantem tego znanego z niebywałych okrucieństw Sonderkommando, olicjalnie przydzielonego do gestapo, był Niemiec Martin Weiss. [6]. This reference is quite messy, and absolutely unreferenced, although even Polish source does not call that unit Lithuanian, it calls it Sonderkommando. Just citing it as an example of selective reading (without trying to improve Ypatingasis būrys article)) you again showed your Google generation approach. You did find it on google didn't you? I'm looking forward to have another portion of your in-famous intimidations to be persecuted if it does not suit your POV.Have a good day-- Lokyz 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
This article is about Ponary massacre. Not about Ypatingasis burys (or their ethnic composition), not about Armia Krajowa or Red Army (nor their ethnic composition), not about Katyn, not about Jedwabne, and not Kielce, nor Auschwitz, nor Poland, nor Lithuania, nor Second World War, nor about many other things that are irrelevant to this article. Please don't push some POVs by inserting information here that has no relevance to that article. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
After supposed anon attack, user:Lysy by restoring text lost various information. Could you Lysy fully restore it? M.K. 20:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed information about ethnic composition of Ypatingasis būrys purposefully. Firstly because this article is not about Ypatingasis būrys but about the massacre. Secondly, because it fed the unnecessary revert wars. For the "disputed numbers", who disputes them ? As for the Stutthof inmates, they have been kept in the pit holes for months when they were forced to crush the bones. Why would you assume that they were stupid enough not to be aware of what was happening ? As for the Soviet monuments in Paneriai, they are completely mute about Jewish or Polish victims, and they clearly make an impression that the victims were Soviet POWs only. -- Lysy talk 21:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
M.K: Expecting references on obvious things is just ridiculous. Are you aware of any Soviet commemoration of Jewish or Polish victims of Paneriai ? Have you seen the Paneriai museum at all ? I am surprised and saddened to see a Lithuanian supporting the Soviet ways to rewrite the history of Lithuania. -- Lysy talk 09:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
One remark. Detailed ethnic composition of the killer's squad indeed belongs to a squad's article. I mean, if the unit included a couple of Poles and Russians it does not change the overall picture. If only Piotrus was similarly following the approach that narrow stuff belongs to narrow articles less selectively unlike taking one on the other side based on which approach would better benefit the POV he is pushing in the current article. Here, he supports a sound approach of keeping the narrow and marginally important stuff to where it belongs. He behaved quite differently in connection with the sad incident of Zaluski Library whose collection was taken to Saint Petersburg by the order of the Russian Empress to expand the Imperial Public Library. Not only Piotrus rightly mentions this episode in the Zaluski Library article. Not only even he finds it warranted to describe this very incident again in the Russian National Library article. He even launched a fierce revert war to insert the said info into the Russian Enlightenment article, claiming the logic:
By this logic Piotrus (and Lysy who helped Piotrus in revert warring aimed at inflaming the RE article) should support a detailed ethnic composition of the death squad included in the article about the crime perpetuated by the said squad. But for some reason, the loosely relevant stuff needs to be included or not included in the articles according to a rule whether such inclusion fits certain agenda or not.
On a side note, Lysy's remark about his being "surprised and saddened to see a Lithuanian supporting the Soviet ways to rewrite the history of Lithuania" is worth of a strong reprimand. While this is not the worse example of ethnic talk I've seen from this editor, I hope he will desist from any of that from now on. -- Irpen 09:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The issue at hand is that this minor detail indeed does not belong to the article where it is so loosely relevant. Similar to how the transfer of the Zaluski library collection does not belong to the RE article (it may be mentioned in the RNL though), or how the Russo-Japanese War war article does not benefit from revert warring aimed at adding there some Polish grievances [10] or every article where Vilnius is mentioned does not need the Polish name of the city and an elaboration on the percentage of the Polish population century by century.
Piotrus, and I am sorry that only by bringing up the tu quoque argument one is able to make you admit something which is plain obvious. There was never ever consensus at RE. Read its talk. Some people just got tired by yours and Lysy's persistence at the time. I am glad we can now finally find a consensus on this issue. -- Irpen 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I think we can put this matter to rest as it is at least on this issue. We have an undisputable fact of the role of YB in this massacre and we just say that this was a Litnuanian police unit in this article. Whether it also included some Poles and Russians does not change much in this article context. At the same time, this referenced info clearly can be mentioned in YB article and the true facts poperly referenced is not "Lithuanian propaganda" in any way. If I can draw an analogy, the issue of the complicity of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) in anti-Polish and anti-Jewish events is often brought up. Nevertheless, at times some Jews served in UPA as doctors. This by itself does not raise the question of the role of the Jews in the massacres of Polish villages committed by UPA. The notable and complex UPA-Jewish relationship is mentioned in UPA article and nowehere else. -- Irpen 02:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Good and agreed. I remove the word Polish from the Blue Police article, because squads of that police didn't receive orders from Polish authorities. Xx236 12:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
By Lithuanian propaganda I mean that Dan puts the same statement into several articles. Either we put the same statements into many articles so I put the camp information into Lake Seliger, or we apply some economy and DAn doesn't put Vilnius was transferred to Lithuania which considered the previous eighteen years as an occupation by Poland of its capital into Vilnius University. A youngsters in love engrave name of the beloved girl everywhere, but you are an editor. BTW, if the Lithuanian POV is there, Polish, Jewish and Belarussian POVs should be also included. Xx236 13:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Xx236 13:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
What exactly was the role of Ypatingasis būrys in the mass-murder in Ponary ? -- Lysy talk 09:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Lysy what are you doing for heaven's sake, why did you remove the official name of the unit Special SD and German Security Police Squad and suddenly renamed it again to Lithuanian Ypatingasis būrys? It was German Police unit, although consisting of Lithuanians. And this Lithuanian is misleading. You're making this article an object to another ongoing revert war.-- Lokyz 11:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Do we replace the same way the Blue Police by German Police in GG? Xx236 12:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The Blue Police wasn't a police, because it didn't have common command. Any local police was commanded by the local German SS and police commander. Where is the Lithuanian police described here? Xx236 16:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Again: What exactly was the role of
Ypatingasis būrys in the mass-murder in Ponary ?
Was Ypatingasis būrys a German or a Lithuanian unit ? --
Lysy
talk
15:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states that the murder took place near the railway station. Would it not be more correct to state that they happened in the forest near Paneriai ? -- Lysy talk 11:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Need exact citations and translations of referenced sentence which starts: It was only on 22 Octoer, 2000, a decade after the.. M.K. 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Is the Blue Police Polish according to the above?
Lithuanians also participated in killings alongside with Germans, Poles and Russians. is a masterpiece in the context of the Ponary massacre. Xx236 11:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Poles should inform what's going on in Lithuania. Strange.? Xx236 11:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
If you tag something there is no need to dedicate it for me, dear Piotrus. Is it some kind of flirt with me? Should I tag Jedwabne massacre "{{ wikiproject:Poland}} for my dear Piotrus"? STOP STALKING ME!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lokyz ( talk • contribs).
Frankly I do not see the purpose of the "for Lokyz" dedication either. Anyway, I suggest that you guys use your userspace rather than articles' talk pages if you feel you have to exchange the "gestures of good will" or such. -- Lysy talk 18:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
First Wikipedians are treated to the article Zydokomuna, now its author and an "administrator" is treating us to nazi propaganda posters. Strikes me as shameful. Dr. Dan 14:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The poster is rather relevant, as it is a direct evidence of Nazi anti-Jewish and anti-Soviet propaganda directed at Lithuanians, which aimed to increase support among Lithuanians for the final solution of the 'Jewish problem' (and to stress Nazis as enemies of the Soviets). As such propaganda was obviously successfull in recruiting Ypatingasis būrys volunteers and assorted auxiliaries, I don't understand why you find its inclusion objectionable. Wikipedia should not censor facts (textual or graphical), no matter how offensive some may find them today.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone reduce the amount of superscripts on the first few sentences of this article? Maybe compress them into one big footnote. Horvat Den 17:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
P.P., the Final Solution as it is now called and known, was implemented in Wannsee, in 1942. Although the murder of Jews took place in the Baltic States earlier (doubt that you personally consider Paneriai, part of the Baltic States), this anti-Semitic barbarity also had a long association with Poland prior to the Holocaust, (see Pinsk massacre), and after that horror, (see Kielce Pogrom). Your reference is too general, does not mention Lithuania specifically, and as a consequence, I chose to remove it again. If you wish to play more mind games with this outrageous anti-Lithuanian bias, go for it, and you will get a tsunami of references to Polish anti-Semitism. To try to "make hay" out out the sad fact that the Jews first in the line of the Nazi policy to kill Jews, were in the Baltic States, is so bogus and actually surprising that you have fallen so low in our debates. Should we think that the fact that the Nazis gave Poland the "honor" of being the site of the most death camps somehow relate or show Polish complicity in the Nazi's policy? Do back off of this one. Dr. Dan 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Although P.P. continues to create a bellicose attitude regarding the Baltic States with his recent edits, we at least have the acknowlegement that Paneriai, a suburb of Vilnius, was/is part of the Baltic States, rather than of Poland. O.K. Dr. Dan 22:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Piotrowski on p.167 ( [13]) gives a list of how many Poles were executed and when, according to Polish resistance. The list must be incomplete, or other estimates exaggerated (he doesn't state that the list is comprehensive), but it adds up to only about 1,000 victims. On p. 174 ( [14]) he quotes two Polish historians: Longin Tomaszewski's "estimate for ethnic Poles is several thousands", Zdisław A. Siemaszko writes about 1,700 including many AK members. So the 20,000 estimate may be too high.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The article states that "the Jewish culture in Vilnius [was] one of the greatest in Europe". Can this assertion be defined or qualified somehow? I mean, "greatest" as in oldest, most established, largest, most distinct, wealthiest, contributed the most to literature or the fine arts... what made it "one of the greatest"? If this statement can't be further developed, I suggest alternate wording, less POV. Boneyard90 ( talk) 00:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The article states that there was a denial by the Soviets, but as far as I can see there was no denial, just a generalization that the Jews were Soviet citizens, which was most likely accurate. Andries ( talk) 21:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Not a Polish propaganda. Soviets didn't deny the massacre, they denied citizenship (Poles, Jews) of murdered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.187.202 ( talk) 07:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
The word Russian means frequently Soviet citizens of differen't nationalities. Xx236 ( talk) 11:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
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The perpetrators of the crime were members of special operational groups consisting of officers of the German police, security service, Gestapo and the Lithuanian special unit "Ypatingasis Burys"."
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