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This article could use a new title. The current one suggests Polish involvement in the NKVD. Appleseed ( Talk) 21:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the name. The current name is beaurocratic euphemism to cover mass persecutions of Poles.
I think Extermination of Poles by NKVD is much better (100 000 guys killed) Cautious 09:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Polish operation of NKVD seems to be used by English historiography, see [1].-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was an article about some kind of shadow control of the NKVD by the Poles. I think the title Polish Operation of the NKVD would be better. 66.214.187.229 ( talk) 02:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Cautious raised an important issue about some of the wording in the article Genocides in history article when writing on the article's talk page:
What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
For something to be a genocide as defined under international law it is necessary to prove that there was intent to destroy specific types of groups. These groups,thanks to USSR diplomatic efforts, do not include social of class groups. There is also another important qualification "whole or in part". The intent is difficult to prove because there is not usually a clear paper trail of evidence. As it is unusual for it to be whole, the "in part" has to be defined and "in part" has a specific meaning under international law see Genocide#In part.
Claiming that any event is a genocide, unless it has been proven to be so in a court of law is complicated because of the complexity of the definition under international law and it is also highly controversial. So if Wikipedia is to make such a claim, it should only do so by quoting third party reliable sources which explicitly state that it was a genocide, otherwise it is WP:OR and against Wikipedia policy. If a third party is used then they may not use the international legal definition, but one of the other definitions as is done in the Australian genocide debate. Further because in this case it is controversial a balanced WP:POV should be given. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
According to discussion on forum.axis, not all from 111.000 were Poles. E.g. In 1937 there were 20.000 shot Poles and around 10.000 shot Russians, Latvians, Jews, Germans within "Polish operation", accused for cooperation, friendship, relations with Poles. Szopen ( talk) 10:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I find the new title rather dubious... All the sources in the article, with one exception (that yelds just 4 Google hits, and whose author is a conservative journalist), constantly refer to the events as the "Polish operation". Moreover, a simple Google Books search shows that "Genocide of Poles" is used to refer to the policies of Nazi Germany or their Ukrainian (anti-Soviet) collaborators, never to a policy of the Soviet Union. On the other hand "polish operation" is an established term. Since page move is a rather major edit, I bypassed the revert part of BRD, hoping we can reach an amiable solution. Thank you Anonimu ( talk) 19:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
The subject of this article concerns mostly people of the Polish ethnicity and background, that's why an online search in the Polish langugage yields more substantial results. For example, the phrase "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim" a word-for-word translation from the English "Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union" can be found in dozens of bookstores as the title of a popular scholarly monograph by Dr Tomasz Sommer from the Polish Academy of Sciences, see: Księgarnia: "Rozstrzelać Polaków. Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim."
When I remove the phrase "bookstore" (Księgarnia) from my Google search (see above), but retain the same phrase in Polish, i.e. "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim", I get a staggering 69,200 results. See "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim" in Google search.
I would love to see what other editors think about the above statistics. — Stawiski ( talk) 22:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Tomasz Sommer is a doctor of sociology at PAN and, at the same time, the Editor-in-Chief of magazine Czas (not the owner of 3S Media). Foreign language WP:RS material is as good as all other references in English Wikipedia. The new WP:TITLE best reflects the article topic by identifying it unambiguously, in contrast to what the NKVD used to call it. That's why I renamed the article. However, feedback from a broader community in that regard would also be appreciated. — Stawiski ( talk) 04:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Please respect Wikipedia core policy guidelines. Poeticbent talk 04:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, you Reywas92 have included in your samples above – unintentionally, I suppose – the case of Polish operation which actually was a genuine Polish operation (Akcja Polska, without quotes) in the Lemko Region. It was the action of the Polish government to restore order among Lemko Rusyns who wanted to sepatate from the Polish state. This was the only genuine Polish operation we can speak of in the interwar years. Just like in the case of "Polish death camps" (meaning, built in Poland), "Polish operation" has nothing to do with scare-quotes, and everything to do with the NKVD secret language. Therefore, the only logical alternative to quotation marks, would be to call our article The Polish Operation of the NKVD (emphasis mine). Please see what the links above reveal upon closer inspection.
The only exception among the examples quoted by Reywas92 (above) in the native Polish website: IPN (from Poland) Poeticbent talk 04:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Polish Operation of the NKVD. ( non-admin closure) TonyBallioni ( talk) 19:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–38) → Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–1938) – According to our MOS:DATERANGE policy guideline: the range's end year is given in full always. Two-digit ending years can be used where space is limited; which is not the case here. Poeticbent talk 16:31, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
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I reverted, as besides unexplained removal of sourced content -e.g. McDermott and Naimark - the content in the article severely misrepresented a BLP scholar - Michael Ellman - whose quite clearly presents both sides of the genocide/ethnic-cleansing issue and states there is no authoritative ruling here. Icewhiz ( talk) 13:31, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
"assert"anything. Naimark addresses the Polish Operation and the great purge as a whole - stating it is hard to classify it as genocide. Why are you challenging McDermott ?
"Sommer is self-published (he owns the publishing house), not a reliable source. also, he is foremostly known as a conservative journalist and eurosceptic politician". Do lock at the before and after versions of the sock edits. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:02, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
"Ellman is one of the few who say "maybe"", - and he does indeed enumerate objections to such a classification:
"There are three objections to treating the ‘Polish operation’ as genocide. The first is....- in a long paragraph beginning in page 686, ending on 687, and concluding with
"Since no legal tribunal to try the crimes of Stalinism has been established, there is as yet no authoritative ruling on the legal characterisation of the ‘Polish operation’ and the other ‘national operations’ of 1937 – 38.". He provides a partial rebuttal (implementation vs. the actual order) for objection 1. He does not refute nor endorse objections 2 and 3 - he describes them. Icewhiz ( talk) 07:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. There's some c/e and a rewrite of the "Genocide characterization" section which I renamed to "Asessment". I took out Montefiore, as he provides a comment in passing; it's also unclear what a "mini-genocide" is. Tomasz Sommer, a journalist and author, is undue. "Among others" is original research & it's unclear who these "others" are and if sources are reliable. I also removed the liberal use of "genocide" terminology, as it does not align with RS, i.e. Category:Genocides in Europe. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:10, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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This article could use a new title. The current one suggests Polish involvement in the NKVD. Appleseed ( Talk) 21:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the name. The current name is beaurocratic euphemism to cover mass persecutions of Poles.
I think Extermination of Poles by NKVD is much better (100 000 guys killed) Cautious 09:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Polish operation of NKVD seems to be used by English historiography, see [1].-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was an article about some kind of shadow control of the NKVD by the Poles. I think the title Polish Operation of the NKVD would be better. 66.214.187.229 ( talk) 02:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Cautious raised an important issue about some of the wording in the article Genocides in history article when writing on the article's talk page:
What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
For something to be a genocide as defined under international law it is necessary to prove that there was intent to destroy specific types of groups. These groups,thanks to USSR diplomatic efforts, do not include social of class groups. There is also another important qualification "whole or in part". The intent is difficult to prove because there is not usually a clear paper trail of evidence. As it is unusual for it to be whole, the "in part" has to be defined and "in part" has a specific meaning under international law see Genocide#In part.
Claiming that any event is a genocide, unless it has been proven to be so in a court of law is complicated because of the complexity of the definition under international law and it is also highly controversial. So if Wikipedia is to make such a claim, it should only do so by quoting third party reliable sources which explicitly state that it was a genocide, otherwise it is WP:OR and against Wikipedia policy. If a third party is used then they may not use the international legal definition, but one of the other definitions as is done in the Australian genocide debate. Further because in this case it is controversial a balanced WP:POV should be given. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
According to discussion on forum.axis, not all from 111.000 were Poles. E.g. In 1937 there were 20.000 shot Poles and around 10.000 shot Russians, Latvians, Jews, Germans within "Polish operation", accused for cooperation, friendship, relations with Poles. Szopen ( talk) 10:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I find the new title rather dubious... All the sources in the article, with one exception (that yelds just 4 Google hits, and whose author is a conservative journalist), constantly refer to the events as the "Polish operation". Moreover, a simple Google Books search shows that "Genocide of Poles" is used to refer to the policies of Nazi Germany or their Ukrainian (anti-Soviet) collaborators, never to a policy of the Soviet Union. On the other hand "polish operation" is an established term. Since page move is a rather major edit, I bypassed the revert part of BRD, hoping we can reach an amiable solution. Thank you Anonimu ( talk) 19:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
The subject of this article concerns mostly people of the Polish ethnicity and background, that's why an online search in the Polish langugage yields more substantial results. For example, the phrase "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim" a word-for-word translation from the English "Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union" can be found in dozens of bookstores as the title of a popular scholarly monograph by Dr Tomasz Sommer from the Polish Academy of Sciences, see: Księgarnia: "Rozstrzelać Polaków. Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim."
When I remove the phrase "bookstore" (Księgarnia) from my Google search (see above), but retain the same phrase in Polish, i.e. "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim", I get a staggering 69,200 results. See "Ludobójstwo Polaków w Związku Sowieckim" in Google search.
I would love to see what other editors think about the above statistics. — Stawiski ( talk) 22:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Tomasz Sommer is a doctor of sociology at PAN and, at the same time, the Editor-in-Chief of magazine Czas (not the owner of 3S Media). Foreign language WP:RS material is as good as all other references in English Wikipedia. The new WP:TITLE best reflects the article topic by identifying it unambiguously, in contrast to what the NKVD used to call it. That's why I renamed the article. However, feedback from a broader community in that regard would also be appreciated. — Stawiski ( talk) 04:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Please respect Wikipedia core policy guidelines. Poeticbent talk 04:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, you Reywas92 have included in your samples above – unintentionally, I suppose – the case of Polish operation which actually was a genuine Polish operation (Akcja Polska, without quotes) in the Lemko Region. It was the action of the Polish government to restore order among Lemko Rusyns who wanted to sepatate from the Polish state. This was the only genuine Polish operation we can speak of in the interwar years. Just like in the case of "Polish death camps" (meaning, built in Poland), "Polish operation" has nothing to do with scare-quotes, and everything to do with the NKVD secret language. Therefore, the only logical alternative to quotation marks, would be to call our article The Polish Operation of the NKVD (emphasis mine). Please see what the links above reveal upon closer inspection.
The only exception among the examples quoted by Reywas92 (above) in the native Polish website: IPN (from Poland) Poeticbent talk 04:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Polish Operation of the NKVD. ( non-admin closure) TonyBallioni ( talk) 19:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–38) → Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–1938) – According to our MOS:DATERANGE policy guideline: the range's end year is given in full always. Two-digit ending years can be used where space is limited; which is not the case here. Poeticbent talk 16:31, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Polish Operation of the NKVD. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:22, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
I reverted, as besides unexplained removal of sourced content -e.g. McDermott and Naimark - the content in the article severely misrepresented a BLP scholar - Michael Ellman - whose quite clearly presents both sides of the genocide/ethnic-cleansing issue and states there is no authoritative ruling here. Icewhiz ( talk) 13:31, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
"assert"anything. Naimark addresses the Polish Operation and the great purge as a whole - stating it is hard to classify it as genocide. Why are you challenging McDermott ?
"Sommer is self-published (he owns the publishing house), not a reliable source. also, he is foremostly known as a conservative journalist and eurosceptic politician". Do lock at the before and after versions of the sock edits. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:02, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
"Ellman is one of the few who say "maybe"", - and he does indeed enumerate objections to such a classification:
"There are three objections to treating the ‘Polish operation’ as genocide. The first is....- in a long paragraph beginning in page 686, ending on 687, and concluding with
"Since no legal tribunal to try the crimes of Stalinism has been established, there is as yet no authoritative ruling on the legal characterisation of the ‘Polish operation’ and the other ‘national operations’ of 1937 – 38.". He provides a partial rebuttal (implementation vs. the actual order) for objection 1. He does not refute nor endorse objections 2 and 3 - he describes them. Icewhiz ( talk) 07:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. There's some c/e and a rewrite of the "Genocide characterization" section which I renamed to "Asessment". I took out Montefiore, as he provides a comment in passing; it's also unclear what a "mini-genocide" is. Tomasz Sommer, a journalist and author, is undue. "Among others" is original research & it's unclear who these "others" are and if sources are reliable. I also removed the liberal use of "genocide" terminology, as it does not align with RS, i.e. Category:Genocides in Europe. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:10, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)