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Please explain how to hide in a small town. Xx236 ( talk) 12:05, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
In fact the research proves about 40 000 victims [1]. Xx236 ( talk) 12:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Feel to start a debate on this on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. For obvious reasons I will not stop using Polish sources, just because of one user's personal theories and interpretations that are quite visibly becoming obsessive.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:11, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Feel feel to present them at RSN.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Whoever wrote that sentence seems to lack knowledge about the subject or some extreme POV-Poland didn't exist as a country after October 1939 and was occupied by Soviets and Germans.The study doesn't cover Poland but 8 and half counties of the special administrative zone established in part of Poland known as General Government -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
You are quite correct Icewhiz that Poland to continue to exist legally, and that places like Bialystok or Warsaw continued to be legally Polish, despite being occupied by Soviets and Germans. However effectively Poland had no control over its territory and its political institutions and functionaries were more concerned with survival in face of German and Soviet genocide actions towards Poles, it would be very inappropriate to state these actions happened in Poland without stating that they happened under German occupation or in General Government.I will double check the counties thing and correct if this is the case.Do you insist on using Poland here instead of German occupied Poland or General Government? The later is more precise as it there were different zones of occupation.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
For the record the authors of the book state clearly that this refers to parts of occupied Poland in General Government only [11]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
If a clairvoyant forecasted something in February 2018 but his forecast was wrong, was such forecast notable? Xx236 ( talk) 13:07, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
All information on BLPs needs to be sourced. I reverted an edit as it removed supporting citations on the work of BLPs, introduced content on a BLP - Dr. Sidi N'Diaye - not in the citation given, and misrepresented the way the attack on BLPs was reported on in the citation given (as well as other English RSes who widely reported this event). Icewhiz ( talk) 19:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
In regards to this revert, per WP:NOENG we prefer English sources when available. English sources of a high caliber are available for the attack on the Holocaust researchers in Paris. Furthermore, Polish media itself is a subject of coverage in the context of this attack - Front page in Polish paper: 'How to spot a Jew' - The Washington Post and due to the "Holocaust law" is unable to report freely on topics relating to Polish complicity in the Holocaust. Use of Polish media raises rather serious NPOV and BLP concerns. NPOV means adhering to accepted international views - not to right wing Polish media. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
" the president of the prestigious Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS), Christophe Prochasson, has never seen a scientific conference so violently disturbed. Upstream intimidation, disruption of researchers' interventions, antisemitic remarks ... "Le Monde.
"Behind the historiographical question lies a deep anti-Semitism in one part of Polish society. None of the anti-Semitic remarks made during these two days has been condemned by official bodies, be it the Institute of National Memory, though represented in the hall, or the Polish ambassador in Paris. The Minister of Higher Education, Frédérique Vidal, even wrote to her Polish counterpart, who was content with a vague response. "L'Express.
Petelewicz was a poor prophet, no hinderniss has been documented. Are poor quality prophecies notable? Xx236 ( talk) 11:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
How do you identify "Polish nationalists"? Do they have fangs and clutches? Were they arrested by the police and their personal data verified? Is there a real difference between claiming that Poles murdered Jews like Hutu murdered Tutsi? It is propaganda, ignorance. Xx236 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
"Cette dernière l’avait interpellé, vendredi 1er mars, après qu’un groupe de nationalistes polonais a perturbé un colloque sur « la nouvelle école polonaise d’histoire de la Shoah »[ [12], Tablet -
"It was directly attacked by Polish anti-Semites operating in France"[13], Neue Zürcher Zeitung -
" Anlass war unlängst der präzedenzlose Vorgang der Störung einer wissenschaftlichen Tagung zum Thema «Die neue polnische Schule der Holocaust-Geschichte» an der renommierten Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris durch polnische Nationalisten."- and there are a number of other sources available - which somehow were able to ascertain the nature of the groups and individuals involved in the disruption. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:30, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
If the Center is academic, the page should inform about academic aspects of its work. Was the Paris conference academic? The section doesn't say anything about academic aspects of it, it is about disruptions. It is an interesting comment about the Center,so naive. Icewhiz has an agenda to prove that Poles are bad people, not to inform about academic discussions. Thinking is dangerousa for propeganda. Xx236 ( talk) 08:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
The same page is linked three times. I believe that two links should be removed. Xx236 ( talk) 08:39, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
A number of Polish (Musiał is Polish-German) historians criticize some works of the Center. Lack of such informations makes the section biased. Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Some of the books have their pages here, not linked, eg. Hunt for the Jews. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Is "expressing concern" notable? Were the concerns right or rather propagandistic? Xx236 ( talk) 12:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
The Center is a unit of the Institute. So many experts, so little facts. Xx236 ( talk) 12:21, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
In New Eastern Europe historian Laurence Weinbaum wrote: "Since the collapse of 'People’s Poland'… a determined band of iconoclastic Polish researchers has been trawling through archives that were once off limits [1]. In no other post-communist country have scholars worked on the issue of native responses to the Holocaust with such tenacity and equanimity Bit by bit, they deconstructed the 'kumbaya' story that had been propagated by both the communist regime and that of its ostensibly anti-communist successors.. At the core of their narrative was the notion that Poles had, en masse, acted to aid their imperiled Jewish neighbors. Resistance to the Germans, it was insisted, was a near universal phenomenon, and collaboration an entirely marginal one… [I]t quickly became clear that this research was not for the faint of heart…. Alongside thousands of valorous rescuers who are today memorialised by Yad Vashem, many times that number saw in the desperate, existential plight of the Jews a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for El-Dorado-like self-enrichment, religious triumphalism, or the realisation of sadistic fantasies. In fact, those who did risk their lives to save Jews feared betrayal by fellow Poles more than any happenstance discovery by the Germans, which makes their audacity all the more remarkable. Yet, with each successive revelation, a spasm of vitriolic rage was unleashed against the researchers who, it was said, had defamed the nation. Sometimes, even in polite circles, among those who could not be suspected of antisemitism, there was disbelief and denial… in an interview with an Israeli newspaper, Poland’s then-foreign minister, Oxford-educated Radołsaw Sikorski, insisted that “Nazi Germany carried out the Holocaust on our soil against our will, but in front of our eyes.” Others, however, faced these findings with genuine introspection and contrition.
References
The conference has been redirected here a while ago (after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship) b/c of the claim that the Center co-organized it. But I cannot confirm this claim in the source cited, and other sources I check don't mention the Center as a co-organizer. The Center itself in their press release about the Conference mentioned other organizers and didn't call itself a co-organizer ( [14]). According to PAN statement here, the event was organized by Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS), Centre National de Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) and Collège de France.
Overall, I don't think this section is relevant here at all. Since once source claims the disruption to the conference was organized/aided by Gazeta Polska, maybe this section could be moved there? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
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Please explain how to hide in a small town. Xx236 ( talk) 12:05, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
In fact the research proves about 40 000 victims [1]. Xx236 ( talk) 12:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Feel to start a debate on this on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. For obvious reasons I will not stop using Polish sources, just because of one user's personal theories and interpretations that are quite visibly becoming obsessive.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:11, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Feel feel to present them at RSN.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Whoever wrote that sentence seems to lack knowledge about the subject or some extreme POV-Poland didn't exist as a country after October 1939 and was occupied by Soviets and Germans.The study doesn't cover Poland but 8 and half counties of the special administrative zone established in part of Poland known as General Government -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
You are quite correct Icewhiz that Poland to continue to exist legally, and that places like Bialystok or Warsaw continued to be legally Polish, despite being occupied by Soviets and Germans. However effectively Poland had no control over its territory and its political institutions and functionaries were more concerned with survival in face of German and Soviet genocide actions towards Poles, it would be very inappropriate to state these actions happened in Poland without stating that they happened under German occupation or in General Government.I will double check the counties thing and correct if this is the case.Do you insist on using Poland here instead of German occupied Poland or General Government? The later is more precise as it there were different zones of occupation.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:16, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
For the record the authors of the book state clearly that this refers to parts of occupied Poland in General Government only [11]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
If a clairvoyant forecasted something in February 2018 but his forecast was wrong, was such forecast notable? Xx236 ( talk) 13:07, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
All information on BLPs needs to be sourced. I reverted an edit as it removed supporting citations on the work of BLPs, introduced content on a BLP - Dr. Sidi N'Diaye - not in the citation given, and misrepresented the way the attack on BLPs was reported on in the citation given (as well as other English RSes who widely reported this event). Icewhiz ( talk) 19:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
In regards to this revert, per WP:NOENG we prefer English sources when available. English sources of a high caliber are available for the attack on the Holocaust researchers in Paris. Furthermore, Polish media itself is a subject of coverage in the context of this attack - Front page in Polish paper: 'How to spot a Jew' - The Washington Post and due to the "Holocaust law" is unable to report freely on topics relating to Polish complicity in the Holocaust. Use of Polish media raises rather serious NPOV and BLP concerns. NPOV means adhering to accepted international views - not to right wing Polish media. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
" the president of the prestigious Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS), Christophe Prochasson, has never seen a scientific conference so violently disturbed. Upstream intimidation, disruption of researchers' interventions, antisemitic remarks ... "Le Monde.
"Behind the historiographical question lies a deep anti-Semitism in one part of Polish society. None of the anti-Semitic remarks made during these two days has been condemned by official bodies, be it the Institute of National Memory, though represented in the hall, or the Polish ambassador in Paris. The Minister of Higher Education, Frédérique Vidal, even wrote to her Polish counterpart, who was content with a vague response. "L'Express.
Petelewicz was a poor prophet, no hinderniss has been documented. Are poor quality prophecies notable? Xx236 ( talk) 11:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
How do you identify "Polish nationalists"? Do they have fangs and clutches? Were they arrested by the police and their personal data verified? Is there a real difference between claiming that Poles murdered Jews like Hutu murdered Tutsi? It is propaganda, ignorance. Xx236 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
"Cette dernière l’avait interpellé, vendredi 1er mars, après qu’un groupe de nationalistes polonais a perturbé un colloque sur « la nouvelle école polonaise d’histoire de la Shoah »[ [12], Tablet -
"It was directly attacked by Polish anti-Semites operating in France"[13], Neue Zürcher Zeitung -
" Anlass war unlängst der präzedenzlose Vorgang der Störung einer wissenschaftlichen Tagung zum Thema «Die neue polnische Schule der Holocaust-Geschichte» an der renommierten Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) in Paris durch polnische Nationalisten."- and there are a number of other sources available - which somehow were able to ascertain the nature of the groups and individuals involved in the disruption. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:30, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
If the Center is academic, the page should inform about academic aspects of its work. Was the Paris conference academic? The section doesn't say anything about academic aspects of it, it is about disruptions. It is an interesting comment about the Center,so naive. Icewhiz has an agenda to prove that Poles are bad people, not to inform about academic discussions. Thinking is dangerousa for propeganda. Xx236 ( talk) 08:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
The same page is linked three times. I believe that two links should be removed. Xx236 ( talk) 08:39, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
A number of Polish (Musiał is Polish-German) historians criticize some works of the Center. Lack of such informations makes the section biased. Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Some of the books have their pages here, not linked, eg. Hunt for the Jews. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Is "expressing concern" notable? Were the concerns right or rather propagandistic? Xx236 ( talk) 12:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
The Center is a unit of the Institute. So many experts, so little facts. Xx236 ( talk) 12:21, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
In New Eastern Europe historian Laurence Weinbaum wrote: "Since the collapse of 'People’s Poland'… a determined band of iconoclastic Polish researchers has been trawling through archives that were once off limits [1]. In no other post-communist country have scholars worked on the issue of native responses to the Holocaust with such tenacity and equanimity Bit by bit, they deconstructed the 'kumbaya' story that had been propagated by both the communist regime and that of its ostensibly anti-communist successors.. At the core of their narrative was the notion that Poles had, en masse, acted to aid their imperiled Jewish neighbors. Resistance to the Germans, it was insisted, was a near universal phenomenon, and collaboration an entirely marginal one… [I]t quickly became clear that this research was not for the faint of heart…. Alongside thousands of valorous rescuers who are today memorialised by Yad Vashem, many times that number saw in the desperate, existential plight of the Jews a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for El-Dorado-like self-enrichment, religious triumphalism, or the realisation of sadistic fantasies. In fact, those who did risk their lives to save Jews feared betrayal by fellow Poles more than any happenstance discovery by the Germans, which makes their audacity all the more remarkable. Yet, with each successive revelation, a spasm of vitriolic rage was unleashed against the researchers who, it was said, had defamed the nation. Sometimes, even in polite circles, among those who could not be suspected of antisemitism, there was disbelief and denial… in an interview with an Israeli newspaper, Poland’s then-foreign minister, Oxford-educated Radołsaw Sikorski, insisted that “Nazi Germany carried out the Holocaust on our soil against our will, but in front of our eyes.” Others, however, faced these findings with genuine introspection and contrition.
References
The conference has been redirected here a while ago (after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship) b/c of the claim that the Center co-organized it. But I cannot confirm this claim in the source cited, and other sources I check don't mention the Center as a co-organizer. The Center itself in their press release about the Conference mentioned other organizers and didn't call itself a co-organizer ( [14]). According to PAN statement here, the event was organized by Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS), Centre National de Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) and Collège de France.
Overall, I don't think this section is relevant here at all. Since once source claims the disruption to the conference was organized/aided by Gazeta Polska, maybe this section could be moved there? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)