Since Battle of Warsaw (1920) is FA already, I think we need to find another pic for PSW warbox (since they are usually chosen for the main page). I think map of the entire war would be the best - any chance sb could find one we can use of make one (wink, Halibutt, map specialist, wink :>) ? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- Halibu tt 16:12, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
I understand that this is an FA and extra care is needed, but I viewed lead needed corrections and with disagreement between my and Lysy's edits I suggest we discuss this here.
First of all, let me quote how EB article gets to it:
As one can see, Britannica says that the war started with Kiev Offensive (1920). I suggest we, at least, return to a version which doesn't point to a specific side which started the war. -- Irpen
Second, regarding the "spreading of the revolution to Europe". This is at least debatable. Bolsheviks really had more importnat things to worry about at that time and even this talk page above discusses this. This is a notable version of Soviet motives, but not undisputable enough to be in the lead. -- Irpen
Depending on how one views what started the war, the version of "attempted to defend just recovered territories" while EB says "...attempted to seize Ukraine" is not appropriate for the lead. -- Irpen
Finally, I don't see the reason to link to such trivial notions as war as border. I will revert for now, but I hope with this explanation my revert will not be considered hostile. I am willing to discuss any disagreements. Please, also check Talk:Kiev Offensive (1920).
-- Irpen 19:03, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
Then I am sorry. I would not take it personally, though, if my version is reverted provided that a similarly good faith explanation followed. I agree with you that maybe some rephrasing would help further. However, I am sure about a couple of things. -- Irpen
First, I do not deny the RA's Vilnius attack. But we cannot just say that the war started with the Red Army Vilnius offensive while EB says it started from Pisludski's Kiev offensive. We either don't point who is an aggressor, or say that it was Poland, as per EB. -- Irpen
Also, at that point both states existed already, both were somewhat endangered and both viewed to expand into the buffer territories and viewed the past possession of these lands (100+ and 5 years prior, respectively) as a justufucation of their natural right to do so. "Recapture" certainly applied to Kiev offence which is still softer than "capture". A softer word is needed for the other side. Maybe recover is too soft. How about "retake controll"? -- Irpen
As for the "world revolution", the plans of revolution expansion are notable, but I don't see them to be anywhere close to the main motivation to be in the lead. -- Irpen
Finally, I would change the outcome from current version to "inconclusive (each side claimed victory)". Let's try to work it out. -- Irpen 21:21, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
Woysyl, thanks! My current reply is in my recent edit. Now point to point. EB is not a bible all right. But EB is an importnat enough indicator of one of mainstream views (in cases when there is no single view) and we cannot just contradict it and say the opposite pointing to the Vilnius as the start of the war. Now, regarding "recover, regain, expand, intrude, invade" issue. There is no question that both sides were aggressors towards the neighboring states. The main piece of real estate in the war was Ukraine and Ukrainian view is important. Whatever Petlyura was doing and allying himself, Ukrainians, unsuccesfull with their own attempts of independence, did view the Poles with more hostility than the RA and the number of Ukrainians that were fighting on each side, if anything else, is an indicator. Poland existed already and it wanted to expand. It somewhat succeeded. Then the Red Army, which was not disconnected from pro-Soviet Ukrainian forces, retook an initiative. Reds were also fighting to get territory under their control, no doubt. At Warsaw, they got their ass kicked and situation reached a draw. Each side got a piece of UA, each side kept the control of their "proper". Each side initially wanted it all. I say, this is "inconclusive". Is the current version acceptable? -- Irpen 22:56, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
I read the archive with interest. I still disagree with "Minor victory" wording. The survival of PL independence is not the victory of PL in the war, because it was not at stake at its beginning. Yes, it got in the picture after Bolshevik successes but they were rather unexpected to the Bolsheviks themselves. France, as a nation, survived the Napoleonic war. It still lost. "Large territorial concessions" doesn't fit here too, in my view. Both sides (RU and PL) got chunks of the territory and not on account of each other but of the buffer areas. Each wanted all, each got part. In the course, the very survival of PL suddenly also became disputable. Thanks god (this is my POV) PL stayed on.
Now, a view of Tukhachevsky, is a thing to consider. But we have to understand that he was in charge of an attack, that went bust. He lost his attack but no one lost the war. Both gained and who really lost, were UA and BE. As for PL and RU they both won some, just less than they might have wanted. So "Inconclusive (Poland claimed victory)" is an appropriate wording, I think.
As for the remaining edits: (1) I removed "after its being partioned for over 100 years" which I myself inserted in the lead recently only because the lead is getting too long. It's fine with me if it stays though. (2) While there were ethnic Poles too in the territory Poland "sought to recover", it tried to "recover" the areas which it lost not just 100, but a good 200-300 years ago (Kiev, for example). Pisludski's adventure (sorry if the word offends anyone) was an aggression with no doubt. OTOH, some of the gains were all but "unfair" and "expansion", is the right word, I think.It is still softer than more blunt language of EB ("attempt to seize UA"). I am just not sure, whether Piotrus and Lysy are still around to reply soon, so my daring to go again back to the article and correct should not be taken as a disregard. This is Wiki and everyone has an edit button. BTW, Kiev Offensive (1920), is in similar need of attention. With best regards, -- Irpen 23:47, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
The Polish reference (sorry, I cannot independently check it) is at the end paragraph of the discussion about the Russian-German alliance/treaty (non-Russian reference). Throughout the discussion I gave you an example of a post-war Bolshevik song that glorified the war (contemporary non-Polish reference). Neither EB, nor Encarta, nor Soviet Encyclopedia came to an explicit conclusion that the war was won by Poland. Of cause, there are other sources that did. Importantly, “victory”, unless an unconditional surrender has happened, is not an indisputable fact, but an interpretation of the facts. How can we achieve objectivity? We can rely on the truly primary sources, such as the treaty of Riga. We may also rely on de facto results of the war. In either case we will see that in 1921 Bolsheviks dominated more land than they did in 1919. They also had less money. They also remained strong enough to finish the conquest of most of the Russian Empire. These facts are not contested by anyone so far. Therefore, based on the facts only, Bolsheviks did not lose the war and did not win it either. Of cause, the victory claims of the warring parties and their allies are inherently biased (e.g. both claimed liberation of Ukraine). The claims of what the warring parties “really” wanted are not factual, but speculative in nature (e.g. whether it was more important for the Bolsheviks to have Poland in the Russian-dominated USSR than it was for Poland to have Ukraine in the Polish-dominated Miedzymorze). Therefore, the interpretations of a victory based on such speculations (whether the original source of such speculations could be pointed out or not) are also inherently speculative. Should we have something like “Polish victory (according to Davies)” in the battlebox? Indeed, as this discussion shows, a large group of people, hopefully, acting in a good faith, could be presented with the same information and speculations about PSW and yet produce diverse interpretations as to the validity of the victory claim. This is an experimental fact, not an interpretation, POV, etc., and the current page is the primary source to prove it. Why not to reflect this fact in the battlebox, regardless of whether someone is pleased with it or not? -- EugeneK 04:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
If all sources that claim Poland won the war (not the miraculous battle of Warsaw) are from within Poland, we need to take this conslusion with caution. From what I can see, Tukhachevsky is talking about loss of his offensive and not the war. This reminds me of a soccer game that one team is winning 1:0. Then at the last minute, it turns to 1:1, and there is a psychological effect of defeat of the side that almost won and the triumph of the side that almost lost. Let's just find non-Polish sources that say that PL won the war. Until then, I oppose the current edition which not only changed "inconclusive" to "PL victory" but even doesn't mention "commonly disputed". From what I see in the discussion, the article itself, from the sources quoted (no outside of PL sources that give it victory with Tukhachevsky admitting lost battle but not the war) and from the real facts on the ground, the most logical outcome I see is "Inconclusive (Poland claimed victory)". -- Irpen 21:37, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Could you just quote, what exactly he is saying? -- Irpen 23:05, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
This is in response to the Q above and to a remark a couple of paragraphs above that I just "don't you want to accept things that don't support my view". To start with, I don't have much of the "view" on this. Didn't have anyway, since I knew about these events only in general. This article, as well as PL-UA War and Kiev Offensive articles stroke me as one sided just by the way they feel first of all. I didn't and still don't say that they were written by POV pushers. I know some of the article's contributors through other topics well enough to safely assume good faith. It is just written from the Polish perspective and stayed so because knowledgeable RU/UA authors didn't bother to participate.
A couple of edtiors, myslef not a very "knowledgeable" I admit, finally got to it and we got to agreement in several changes. There are two sticking points for now as far as the lead is concerned. "17-th century" issue and the war outcome. Arguing got stuck in a circle or two and we just need to check outside. I do not consider Davies a final authority but he is certainly one of respectable authors. I am interested to see his account. Should I promise to agree not matter what he says? I agree that what he says is important to consider in the outcome of our discussion. What's more that you want me? There is really no need to get into accusation here towards "you and EugeneK". It is no doubt good for the article that we got some of our hands on it as it already evolved towards a version that is acceptable to more parties, hence a more neutral and better version. -- Irpen 23:31, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
What are the indications that Bosheviks were in “a mood of buoyant optimism” in 1919? Wasn’t this the time when the Whites under general Yudenich were besieging Petrograd , the Whites under Denikin (in 1920 - under Wrangel) were still controlling a piece of Ukraine and the Japanese still were going strong against the Bolsheviks in the Far East? The diplomatic account would point a mood of mortal fear: in 1919 the Bolsheviks expressed a constant willingness to offer concessions and peace treaties to almost anyone, from the White to the Poles. The fact that most of those offers were rejected suggests the Bolsheviks were not viewed as superior contenders at the time. If the statement about “a mood of buoyant optimism” is unsubstantiated, would the author please remove it?
I have an impression that Lenin’s words about Poland and Bolshevik bayonets are taken from his inspirational address to the young volunteers marching up to the front (already existent). In this case, it is not surprising that the leader sending his troops into a battle sounds overly excited and optimistic (The speech also promised the total victory of communism in their lifetime), although he understands that the reality is much more precarious and uncertain. I admit that my knowledge of Lenin’s speeches is quite rudimentary, but would it be possible for the person who used the quote in the article to check and reveal to the others what was its original context and date?-- EugeneK 03:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Between Lysy and EugeneK is copied from User talk:EugeneK
You mentioned that Polish victory of Polish-Soviet war is commonly disputed. Would you comment on this ? Thanks. -- Lysy ( talk) 18:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I need to state that my view may be somewhat biased (the Polish way). Anyway, stating that Polish victory in this war is disputed is quite shocking to me. As far as I understand it, the Bolsheviks attacked Poles in the beginning of 1919 but then in the course of war most of their armies were annihilated in the Battle of Warsaw and the remaining two armies retreated. I understand that this may be the question of Russian national pride, but usually the retreating army is the one that was defeated. This war was silently ignored in the official history of Poland in the times when Poland was under Soviet domination after WW2. To me this is clearly the sign the Soviets attempted to hide their defeat. -- Lysy ( talk) 20:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Similarly to the Polish propaganda, Soviet historians always view the Polish assault into Lithuania, Ukraine and Byelorussia as the beginning of the war, while ignoring the earlier minor skirmishes of Bolsheviks with ethnic Poles (even the original wiki page claims that those were spontaneous and did not include regular units). Soviet historians maintained that their country (the leftovers of the Russian Empire under the Bolshevik rule), which was severely weakened by the civil war and foreign intervention, was attacked by the Polish “capitalists” and nationalists, who crossed the boundaries of their ethnic state and also brought a few puppets of Ukrainian origin with them. The international (not just Russian) Red Army, which included Ukrainians and communist “good” Poles (who were the commanders of that army), drove the “bad” Poles farther west than the original border suggested in the pre-war negotiations. Ukraine and Byelorussia were partially liberated and made independent, but then, with a few other newly independent territories, chose to form a union known as the USSR. The army that retreats after a battle is generally believed to have lost the battle. A country that retreats and looses its territory and wealth may be considered a looser in the war. Both armies have retreated and advanced, at least locally, several times, including a Polish retreat up to its capital (Poles won the battle of Warsaw, not the battle of Moscow or St.Petersburg). Both suffered great losses (although the Polish losses were much greater. In fact, the claim that the Red Army was lost in that war does not add up: both armies started with equal numbers on that front, Russian had huge resources of manpower elsewhere, Poles suffered greater losses – who ended up with more soldiers left?). Both were tired (although the Bolsheviks still retained enough force to re-conquer the bulk of the Russian Empire and repel other invaders). Neither lost territory at the end (although by going for the war Poland lost a chance to get a bigger piece of the contested land). Neither gained fully what it wanted. Neither was willing to pursue the war any further. Isn’t it a classical stalemate, regardless of what any propaganda calls it?
The Soviets hardly considered this war as a separate conflict, but rather a part of the civil war that engulfed the former multinational Russian Empire, of which Poland was only a part. The avoidance of the topic by later Polish communists is very understandable, as the war buried the hopes to form a Greater Poland, and most of the Poles fought against their future communist masters. Similarly silently ignored in the Soviet states were all the successful Russian and Soviet wars that “liberated” many of its neighbors (e.g. Caucasus, the Baltic states) against their will.
I can understand that this conflict, being the last chance for Poland to restore its medieval greatness, is a touchy topic for Poles and a hot topic for Polish propaganda, especially at the time when the relationship with its eastern neighbors are at the all-time low. I also understand that the original article was written by Polish patriots who obviously stressed every Polish success and hushed down every setback. But I would like to reiterate that it is a simple statement of the fact that Polish victory in the war is commonly disputed, at least by the people who are aware of a non-Polish viewpoint.
The statement that only the Russians dispute Polish victory is a very misleading one, and you could easily find non-Russians (including yours truly) who are uneasy about an obviously polo-centric nature of the article. If we are to contribute to an international encyclopedia, we have to maintain some objectivity. Please, reverse the statement to “commonly disputed” or, if you prefer to be more objective “stalemate.”
Talking about non-Russians questioning Polish victory: "Perhaps the result should be described as unconclusive?" is a suggestion apparently added to the discussion by the Polish author of the original page.
Halibutt, you are trying to break into a house that's not locked. This is extensively discussed and agreed already. There are more urgent issues to address now at this and related articles, don't you think? -- Irpen 23:38, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Another view: There simply is no one on the Bolshevik side who believed the USSR got anything out of this war. The Commissar of War: Leon Trotsky, OPPOSED the war from the get go, Stalin sabotoged it and the political conditions for a socialist victory at Warsaw were non-existent. The Russians simply don't claim victory.
Secondly, while the Russian *lost* the war, they did prevent further expansion of the "Polish Empire" from becoming a reality. The Poles LOST some of of the Western Ukraine, pleasing Ukranian nationalists to no end, AND pleasing Rakovsky's Soviet gov't in the Ukraine also. Lvov wasn't returned to Ukraine as Ukrainian communists and nationalists had hoped, but wait 19 years and that's that. Regardless of Poland's dreams of empire, the dream died in their victory.
Thirdly, whatever was settled by the 1920 agreement vanished FOREVER in 1945 when the boundries were declared and the USSR kept almost everything it wanted from 1939. In large part the stage was set by the 'victory' of the Polish forces in 1920
--David Walters, December 2, 2006
Dreams of Polish empire? Mr. Walters, have you read the discussion? As you know, Polish negotiators at Riga refused to accept more territories, as you know no political party in Poland dreamt about Polish empire. ND had the plan to acquiring only as much territory, which could be safely polonised - they got something short of their expectations, but they weren't the Polish state. Szopen 08:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The topic of when the Ukrainian lands were under Polish control seems to evoke a controversy and multiple edits. It appears that Kiev and the adjacent areas came under Polish rule in 1569 under the Union of Lublin, were liberated by Ukrainians around 1648, and came under Russian protectorate a decade later. If this topic has to be mentioned in the article at all, would it be appropriate to mention that these territories were controlled by Poland only for a century and were lost in the 17th century?-- EugeneK 15:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Re what Pilsudski (sorry, I have no diatrics in my kb) "assumed", his infamous quote is revealing. Translated back fro RU/UA (I haven't seen it in EN) it says, "An independent Poland first of all, and then we'll see which one" [3]. Maybe "in what borders" is a more exact translation, but the meaning is here. It is somewhat less quoted than his famous "Without independent Urkaine there is no indpependent Poland".
The view of modern Ukrainian historiography (see sources I added to the article) is that Pilsudski made an allialnce with the by-Dnieper Ukrainians, represented by Petlyura, first of all to have a free hand in brutalizing the Western Ukraine. He held his troops from attacking the Soviet Russia when Bolsheviks were in their hardest times, because he had reasons to believe that if White movement wins, it would be worse for Poland. He may have initially wanted only the Western UA for the PL proper, and the rest in some federated PL dominated state. As Eugene pointed out, we just don't know how that would differ from RU dominated SU. The fact is that he conquered Kiev which was held by Poland not in 18th but in 17th century. As the Russian saying goes, the appetite kicks in while one eats. Similarly, Bolsheviks may have got to thinking of the "Soviet Poland" once they rided there in an unexpected success. So, the 17th century certainly applies to the time of Polish control of the land PL wanted to dominate (directly or via (con)federation and we have no clue how puppet the Kiev gov would have to be to be satisfactory). This above are just speculations, I admit. But we can do nothing else in "what if" situation. Poland's expanding to beyond 18th century is a fact on the ground.
In the source I added one can find an observation of one of participants of Rydz-Smigly "victorious parade of liberators" in Kiev. This observant saw this as a huge political mistake: "Ukrainian people who saw in their capital an allien general with a Polish army... didn't see that as a liberation but as a new variety of occupation...". -- Irpen 21:14, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
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Halibu
tt 00:18, August 30, 2005 (UTC)Any Polish claim upon Rus territory is automatically worthless. Today's Byelorussia and much of Ukraine along with European Russia composed Kievan Rus which was the first Russian state,lasting from 880 to 1240. The Mongols unleashed aggression upon the Rus lands while the Lithuanian barbarians conducted a ruthless policy of expansion into Rus lands. The merger of Lithuania and Poland resulted in the diminished sovereignty of the former. The Polish gentlemen proceeded to mericlessly exploit the Rus serfs, provoking insurrection by the hero Khmelnitsky. Russia proceeded to liberate Rus territory after 1634. In the so-called "Polish Partitions", Russia had in fact taken back land which had been stolen by the Lithuanians 400 years earlier. Byelorussia and the right bank of Ukraine were freed from the Polish-Lithuanian yoke.
I carefully reread all the arguing above (it was not easy, had to use history+compare time after time since it got chronologically/spatially split widely) and I figure we should just conclude since no new points are being brought up for a while. I would still like to see the entire context of Davies' conclusion but, generally, we have enough sources to say that the outcome was a "Minor Polish victory". I will change the article as such. Please add a footnote, as Piotrus suggested (I just don't know how to do it), since this is not universally agreed outcome.
On the second issue (lost in the 18th or 17th-18th century) I still disagree with current situation of 18th century only being mentioned. In the course of the war Poland did conquer Kiev (it's 17th century possession) and we cannot say how would the history turn further should the Poles managed to stay or install Petlyura there. We know what Pisludski said and even his own statements changed from one occasion to another. We have no way to know how overwhelming the Polish domination in Federation would be. Polish rule in Volhynia was pretty harsh. This is somewhat different, since PL viewed this as part of Poland and not federation but still indicative. Anyway, this is all hypothetical.
Conquest of Kiev and a pompous victorious parade of Rydz-Smigly is a real fact on the ground. As a compromise between "lost in the end of the 18th century" and "lost control of in the 17th and 18th centuries", I will use "lost in the end of the 18th century or earlier". I would like to thank everyone for the discussion that was interesting so far and will continue, no doubt. Regards, -- Irpen 04:54, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Soviet Ukraine was a place of a genocide. I doubt very much that even the worst Polish government were able to do the same. Ukrainian leader would have been a partner for Poland. Ukrainians were divided and lost millions citizens 1930-1950. Xx236 13:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to draw the attention of the editors who participated in the discussion above to Kiev Offensive and Battle of Wolodarka articles. They are even more problematic and we need more of reasonable editors to discuss it over to make discussions at talk productive. I left my opinions there already. Thank you. -- Irpen 17:58, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I doubt that Polish name of an Ukrainian place was correct in an English text. Xx236 14:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
There is a problem with all general maps (region of Upper Silesia). It state Katowice in 1919 while it should be KATTOWITZ. Katowice and part of Upper Silesia became part of Poland as SILESIAN AUTHONOMY in 1922!!!
There is a problem with the map of August - Wilno was a part of Lithuania after passing it by Soviets in July (12.) this map doesn't include it.
But is should be at least indicated that that area wa rather under Lithuanian than Polish control (the political border is stiil included in the map but - according to status quo - it is wrong). I know that nowadays most of 1919-1922 maps prefer to "give" Wilno to Poland but it is not fully correct. So please - at least somehow mention that theoretically Wilno was a part of Lithuania in August 1920.
OK, I see UR point but I still claim that the control of that area was more "Lithuanian" then "Polish". At that time of course. I understand that "Lithuanian" in that case means rather "Soviet" but it is still not Polish. Depending only on International Law isn't a good idea - then e.g. the day the war began should be different etc. I feel that this problem is too complicated to show it using single map ...
Recently Irpen significantly reworded one of the parts of this article. Instead of adding {{ dubious}} or {{ fact}} tags all over the text, I decided to paste it here for discussion:
---
Halibu tt 04:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I simply haven't replied yet. Unlike you, my opponents here gave some reasonable objections and I am writing an equally elaborate response and considering what to take into account. While you mostly just scream, other people do discuss things. -- Irpen 22:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC) other people do discuss things. Or delete other people's posts. -- Molobo 22:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a nutjob commie!
The communists LOST and lost badly! ( Romanyankee78 20:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC))
In Bruce Lincoln's "Red Victory: A History of Russian Civil War",(already cited in the article) in the conclusion of the relevant chapter "Give Us Warsaw!" he first quotes Pilsudski praising Polish troops at the end of the war for having successfully defended an independent Poland and contrasts this with a quote from Lenin who says "We have won ... Anyone who examines the map will see that we have won, that we have emerged from this war with more territory then when we have started." He then goes on to offer his own opinion of the outcome: “In fact both sides could claim victory in the armistice of October 1920 and the peace (at Riga) in March”. Judging who won by territorial changes is also not conclusive. For one, it depends on when one believes the war started (Lincoln argues it was at Bereza Kartuska in Feb 1919, 15 months prior to the Kiev offensive, as it’s in the article now). Also the final border was 100 miles east of the Curzon line established by the allies but 50 miles west of the boundary proposed by the Soviets during failed peace talks in April. The peace also allowed the Bolsheviks to focus on whoopin’ Wrangel, but then again, I don’t think Pilsudski ever wanted Wrangel to win. Something like "disputed Polish victory" or "both sides claimed victory" while sort of ugly verbally is probably most accurate. And I'm pretty damn far from being a commie, and hopefuly a nutjob as well. radek 07:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
If you deny that this was anything but a POLISH VICTORY then you must be a nutjob! The treaty favored them and that it was THEY who were forced to come to terms with poland! Just citing some obscure book is not good enough. Lenin saying they "gained more land" is meaningless. It is a mute point. the poles ran the soviets back to russia, then got a favorable peace. It says from a book I have "The treaty of Riga granted Poland much of what Pilsudski had orignally envisioned for his nation" 100 Decisive Battles. It seems to me there are a lot of people in denial for the commies here and on other boards in which they lost Romanyankee ( 68.227.211.175 01:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
You bet. the soviets sued for peace. In the civil war the south sued for peace and then got a favorable outcome, but it is common sense that the north won. Same thing here. Romanyankee( 24.75.194.50 13:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
Total enough RomanYankee( 24.75.194.50 16:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
Hi all. I noticed an anon adding some fancy info here. At first I thought it's a vandalism, but even if it is - there is a grain of truth in it. Indeed the Bolshevik weapons supply was low and indeed there were lots of Polish Americans (as well as some 200 Americans) serving with the Polish Army. However, is the 20,000 figure reliable? Seems way too much... Halibu tt 21:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I reverted anon contribs (below). Source is needed before they are moved back to the article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, it seems as if Wilno/Vilnius was neither Polish onr Lithuanian but that the majority of inhabitants at this time were Jews and Belarussians. One of the many ironies of conflicts in inter-war Europe.
Which means the USA had a hand in beating the pinko's Romanyankee( 24.75.194.50 16:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
Well, that they had a hand in defeating the pinko's. And it is this source or did you read the article? Romanyankee ( 68.227.211.175 10:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC))
The "20,000 Americans" figure is usually the one given for TOTAL American troops involved in the Russian Civil War (not counting volunteers such as Kosciuszko Legion). But most of these were in Vladivostok and some under British command in North Russia. Few, if any of these were anywhere near this conflict. radek 21:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Nope, There were not 20k americans there. 5k in north russian and another 5k in vladivostok. The air legion and probably a good number of polish-americans fought here. There were token forces in the civil war and rarely fought the soviets. They were they to protect the ports and reestablish the eastern front. If anything they fought more often in this conflict
yankeeroman( 24.75.194.50 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC))
The information under the heading “End of the war” is questionable. Apparently, some negotiations were going on as early as March. The talks in Riga started in the middle of September. That is when the Soviet offers were announced. Obviously, they were not inspired by the October advances of the Polish army. Would someone care to re-write the paragraph? -- EugeneK 03:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The earliest Soviet offer, according to the Russian-language source that I found in this page (Mikhail Mel'tiuhov; hard-to-read, but full of references)is, in fact, dated February 1919. Many other offers and counter-offers are discussed in the same source, but this is not the point. There are no doubts that the talks in Riga were inspired by the “Miracle”. However, the article claims that the Soviets asked for negotiations after the October (!) successes of the Polish army. This could not be true, since the talks started in September. -- EugeneK 04:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In Riga in September the Soviets made two offers: on September 21st and 28th. Poles made a counteroffer on the 2nd of October. On the 5th the Soviets offered amendments to the Polish offer. Poland accepted. The armistice between Poland on one side and Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Russia on the other was signed on the 12th and went into effect on the 18th of October. From Mel'tiuhov. -- EugeneK 06:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
With the article to be main paged in a few days, I finally went to the library to fulfiil Irpen's request about checking Davies PSW book. To my considerable suprise I found that University of Pittsburgh Hillam Library has more then two shelves stacked with books related to the PSW, Polish and English (and Russian, but I can't even read their titles :( ). All of them are withing few meters of a Int-comp workstation, and the library is 25 minutes from my place :) Anyway, here is a list of publications that I can easily access (forgive me for the lack of Polish letters):
The above list is only of publications that seemed to me directly related to the PSW. I skipped over publications about the Polish-Ukrainian War, aspects of Second Polish Republic and virtually anything that didn't have a title clealry indicating its connection to the PSW. You can browse the library catalogu here. If like me to check any of these publication, let me know!-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
We have so many nice PD paintings, why are we using this black and white phote with nothing much on it? Which other picture would you like to see used instead?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the Wolodarka image then? I wonder whether this "battle" exists as a separate significant event of the war outside of the Wikipedia coverage. BTW, what is its outcome per WERS? -- Irpen 03:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I am suggesting that that whatever skirmish took place there doesn't qualify to call it a "battle" similarly to not having separate articles for every house of Stalingrad. Such articles could exist, but they should not be called "battles" and listed in campaignboxes where they create clutter. I've seen many books on this war (read fully only one unfortunately) and didn't find Volodarka in any of them at all. I am not saying the references there lie. I simply question the interpetation and the presentation of these events in Wikipedia. And the outcome, when Wikipedians derive it on their own. As for the "occupation" term, it is crystal clear that by the end of PUW, the land was occupied by Poland and at the height of Kiev offensive, half of Ukraine was occupied as well. I took your objection as beeing specifically to using the word in the lead. I could see that and accepted, but since you opposed to using less strong word in other articles, the factual occupation belongs back to where it was as well. -- Irpen 03:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, by the end of the PUW, there was clearly one occupying side in Western UA. At the height of the Kiev Offensive, there was also one occupying side all the way to the Dnieper.
I accepted the removal of what you perceive as a strong word from the lead and I went ahead and did a similar change in two other articles. Nowhere the clarity was affected and nowhere it implied any whitewashing. However, I was reverted by you three times. Instead of forcing you into keeping the word there by restoring it (you wouldn't be allowed to revert for the forth time), I choose to restore the consistency and left the other articles your way. The brevity of the style of the lead is important, I agree. It's not my approach to take on an article, alter the lead POVing it and leave. You can see that I edited many places in the article in accordance with sources and other articles we have. Maybe the lead needs rewriting. I don't mind that. However, when we say that Pilsudsky "envisioned" smth, we should clearly say what it was. The lead did describe his "visions" and I simply added what's highly relevant. You then forced Lenin's "vision" "for the balance". I did not interfere.
It wasn't me who insisted on the Pilsudski's vision there at the first place. I simply brought it in agreement with reality. Same applies to the Polish position towards Ukrainian lands it forced under its control. The right term should be used when we speak about if at all. If strong terms are not right for the intros, fine with me and please don't revert me in other articles. If, however, you do use the strong term in intros, please don't insist on their selective usage. If you insist on "balancing" it with the Soviet position in the lead, fine with me as well. Rewrite it. More later, -- Irpen 04:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Moving back to the pic issue, how about the map I moved to the infobox? A neutral and more informative map of the conflict is much more informative to the reader than the painting whose artistic value as well as neutrality may or may not be debated. -- Irpen 06:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree but if you feel so strong, so be it. That's the least important issue of the article. -- Irpen 06:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I did not like the way you single-handedly shuffled the images in the article and I've restored the previous layout. Please try to discuss it first and let's do it one-by-one. Particularly the map you put into the infobox made not much sense, as it does not illustrate the war. -- Lysy talk 07:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not a map of Poland, this is the map that shows the war theatre and the final post-war borders set only due to the war outcome. The painting's being an alegoric illustartion of the war is a POV. Surrendering Kremlin to Pozharsky is even more allegoric. You reverted me there though. This image is of poor quality, debatable artistic value, biased towards one side and heavily POV. It's fine for the article but not the infobox where the image should be neutral towards all sides of the conflict. -- Irpen 21:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Raul spoke about pics vs maps only as far as the mainpage image is conserned and not about the infobox where he didn't interfere. -- Irpen 22:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The language in this featured article is chock-a-block with grammar, and other, infelicites. An extensive phrasing edit is really needed. ww 05:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The text presented on the Wiki page today is biased. It ignores Soviet imperialism, see Soviet declarations of bringing freedom to Western workers. It ignores the existence of the Ukrainian nation (unfortunately too weak to create a state at that time). I don't know if it is Soviet propaganda or rather political corectness and ignorance - two fight so they are probably equally guilty.
If the Poles didn't annex the land East to the Curzon line, at least one million people would have died 1921-1938 during collectivization, Great Terror and famine. Xx236 06:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The terrible Dmowski was responsible for the death of maybe 10 Jews till the war and maybe thousands during the war (the results of his ideology after his death). The Soviet Union was responsible for Holodomor, during which millions died. If you want to criticize nationalists, why don't you mention uk:Донцов Дмитро Іванович, who might have influenced UPA (more than 50 000 civilian victims, Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish). The Ukrainian culture allegedly "suffocated", e.g. more Ukrianian journals existed in Polish Lwów than in Soviet Lviv 1985 (my source is "Dzvin" of that time). Xx236 08:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I still cannot understand how one can actually compare the Soviet MANSLAUGHTER of Ukrainians with Polish attempts to suppress Ukrainian culture WITHOUT killing Ukrainians and arrive at the opinion that the Soviet Russian regime was far better because it helped Ukrainians develop their culture! To me human rights and a democratic/semi-democratic government is much better than the totalitarian, nazi-like Soviet government of the 20's. Yet perhaps I will be considered biased by some post-Stalinists and other radical left-wingers. To me it is much better for a person to be alive and persecuted for speaking his own language than to have freedom of using it and be murdered by an oppressive government. I DO NOT support radical nationalism, I am just trying to be unbiased in my approach.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.129.101 ( talk • contribs)
Irpen, the result of the Soviet-Polish war was the death of hundreds thousands people who stayed on the wrong side of the border, partially because of the Endeks games in Riga. Xx236 14:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted a claim that Petliura was the leader of a party that won elections in 1917. If I understand it correctly, the referenced source actually claims that the largest party in the elected Ukrainian legislature (which was supposed to represent Ukraine at an All-Russian congress) was Ukrainian SR (“socialist revolutionaries”): 71 out of 120 seats; while Ukrainian social democrats had only 2 out of 120 seats. Petliura was a Ukrainian social democrat (Labor or “worker’s” Party), not an SR. So, it is unlikely that his party gained a majority at that stage. Another possible parliament-type body was Central Rada, which was not really elected. It evolved over time and was composed of representatives of various social, political and ethnic groups, including Ukrainians leaving outside of Ukraian. Even for Central Rada, there are no indications of Petliura’s party (if he had been a leader of any party at this time) holding a majority. As many other sources on Petliura indicate, he came to power in a coup after overthrowing a pro-German government. Could the author of the claim about Petliura’s electoral successes substantiate the claim or remove it altogether? -- EugeneK 20:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears this article has grown beyond a reasonable length. Please, instead of trying to add various details to make one or the other side look worse or better, try to consider what should be cut from the article, or spun off to its own article. The section on "Controversies" looks like a great candidate for that.
Also, I invite Irpen to stop indulging in his obsession about Kiev bridges. In war infrastructure is destroyed, please try to accept this. If those bridges had remained standing, they would surely have been blown up by the Soviets in 1941. Still, if you really care so much about bridges, maybe you should add a note about retreating Russians blowing up the Warsaw bridges to the First World War article (or at least Eastern Front (World War I) article). Balcer 07:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Equavalence of the Soviet State and the Second Polish Republic is not in the picture. However, to leave the Red violations in and completely remove any mention of the similar Polish actions is not NPOV. And, yes, we need an article about treatment of minorities in the interwar Poland and others. No one equates it to Red Terror but not only the treatment of minorities article doesn't exist but Anti-Semitism in Poland was blanked into a redirect, for instance, and my adding info to the "Polish contribution to the WW2" article was blanked not even by Molobo, but by Piotrus. We are facing the "Poland can do no wrong" sentiment through most of Wikipedia since there are not enough non-Polish editors with sufficient interest to contribute to 20s century Poland controvercies, while there are plenty to dump all the evils on Russia, largely due to a Cold war mentality or the fervent Russophobia of some editors (definetely a minority, but rather a vocal one).
As far as the bridges go, also note that the bridges withstood the events of the city changing hands between Reds and Whites (several times), Germans and Ukrainian States (several of them) and no one dared to blow them. I read much material of the mastepiece chain bridge and, as you perhaps know, to destroy the chain bridge is a piece of cake. Enough is to damage one chain link and the bridge falls, and no one destroyed that chain link until the Poles did. It is an amazing fact that the bridges withstood the great war, the civil war, the intra-Ukrainian wars and they were still there. Perhaps, people who considered this land theres (reds, whites and Ukrainians alike) didn't dare but of course for Poles this was an allien territory and the immediate benefit outweighed everything else.
Overall, this article's exposure at the mainpage showed that there is something terribly wrong with FAing. I don't know when it passed the FA scrutiny, perhaps it was a different version or perhaps too few people east of Poland saw the nomination. Note how many significant NPOVing changes I made during the very day of its mainpage exposure and Piotrus accepted them all, which means how far the article was from being ready for the mainpage (and also that Piotrus is a reasonable and good faith editor, rather than Polish POV crusader, but that's a side note). This article needs to be brought to normalcy as it keeps the precious FA label and I hope that the Polish September Campaign is not getting to the mainpage any time soon because it is even more POV and, yes, carries a FA label too. -- Irpen 08:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I completly agree with Balcer that this section needs to go because 1) it is too detailed and 2) it is prone to controversy and was not accepted by the FAC process. I am not sure if we should move it to the Aftermath of the Polish-Soviet War or to a separate article of its own (I am afraid the second version may result in some VfD fan/NPOV extremist nominating it for deletion). I'd also like to point out that we have a very similar precedent (moving a controversial section to a subarticle), both with Treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants and with Soviet partisans in Poland, both splits initatied by you, Irpen (so I am sure you'll see the merit of this proposal). On this note I have also to agree with Balcer to some extent on other points he raises, i.e. that Kiev bridges (while a great article I apploud you for, Irpen) is not that relevant here (but can be mentioned in a subarticle), and that you seem to be loosing cool recently with some revert situations we have seen in Poland-Russia related articles (PMW, PSC, KO, HoPs, SPiP...). As I consider you usually a reasonable and valuable contributor, I'd really like to remind you about the existence of talk pages and that if one is reverted, it is good to raise the issue on talk page and see what community has to say about it. We are all aware of our POVs: I and Balcer, for example, will (to some extent) inevitably and often unconciously represent the Polish POV, while you Irpen are surely aware that you are affected by Russian POV. We both should not let our relations deteriorate to the level of a revert war. As you note yourself, this article has been accepted by community as a FA-class NPOVed article (you can see the exact version following the link from FA template above). If you feel that it has changed too much from the time it was FACed and is no longer NPOVed, then we have a process exactly for that: Wikipedia:Featured article review-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I feel like attacked by a pack here. But, fine, the article is more important. Balcer, you charge that my edits were accepted because others were "tired" of me rather than that they were reasobanble. Have you actually checked the history on what changes you were talking about? Because Piotrus wrote a following edit summary commenting on my changes: "minor changes, I think your other edits are ok" You say that "you had enough". So did I. Especially, of one sided articles reflected the Polonopholic positions that spread even from Polish topics to purely Ukrainian and Russian topics like Smolensk getting the Polish name to the intro, Polonizing Victory Day and even Russo-Japanese War, Catherine the Great, Suvorov and even Tyutchev and Ded Moroz, Ukrainian Kiev, Kaniv, Chernihiv and I can keep counting if you need the list expanded. Have it ever occured to you that that's others who may be tired of this? I don't remember ever a Russian name in the first like of the Warsaw article for instance.
Piotrus, you want this section spun off? Fine, start a separate article, I don't mind that if a passing mention is left in here. Note that (read my prev entry) I only added one short sentence about the bridges to which you pasted the whole paragraph fom Kiev Offensive, followed by Balcer's deletion of bridges (he left your addition intact though), followed by my accepting keeping this out and removing the piece you added, followed by me seeing myself reverted by Halibutt so that only red atrocities remained in the article. Only then I added more. I feel like becoming a target of attacks and seeing myself reverted for an honest attempt to only start bringing this article to normalcy. I felt tempted not to waste time instead and POV-tag the article, explain the problems at talk leave it to you to fix. WOuld it have been a better solution. I hope this can be resolved peacefully and to the article's benefit and that Balcer's words were caused by overexcitement but I feel strongly that this tradition of biased articles needs to start being addressed. -- Irpen 18:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see anything biased in the article. I however see a lot of original research on your part, wrong translation of Polish words, and using Soviet sources as factual statements. I personally believe that we should have a Wiki rule against using Soviet sources as anything else then sources on themselfs since they are propaganda pieces of totalitarian regime similiar to the Nazi one. I hope that such idea will gain support and be implemented. I of course will restore neutrality to the article, seeing how much Irpen's contributions seem to be loaded with emotional content and the heavy usage of Soviet and nationalist sources. -- Molobo 18:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, please don't use the word "consensus" to describe what this really is - the agreement among several Polish editors on certain points of the article. The truth is that most non-Polish, non-Russian and non-Ukrainian wikipedians (unfortunately we almost totally miss the Belarusians in the project) don't give a damn about the PSW to make a single factual edit. I trully appreciate the native speakers copyediting myself (and my Polish, Russian, Ukrainian colleagues) but face that they bring almost no material to these topics. I don't blame them for that, but this is the starting point. So, first of all, what we have is the Polish editors agreeing and the non-Polish editors disagreeing. The former is not surprising and Elonka spoke of that lately at the Polish board. I am not surprised about such things anymore ever since, what seemed to me an open and shut, VfD case, the voting on the deletion of the Polish Black Book receiving zero (!) delete votes from Polish Wikipedians. Not only Halibutt and Witkacy, but even Balcer and yourself didn't vote delete. So, let's call this article for what it was, the Polish-Russian-Ukrainian article based entirely on the Polish POV and, unsurprisingly, Polish editors call this "a consensus" (please no offence, I believe that originally it was written in good faith, it's just that Polish historiography, as any other national historiographies, tends to be biased). You may want to ask, why then non-Poles who care (Russians and Ukrainians) didn't do much for the article to this day. Perhaps part of the answer is here. Read the talk page of this knowledgeable editor who simply gives up. So, please no more of this consensus vs Irpen stuff. You said yourself that you agreed to most of my changes and that was only when the war crimes issue popped up, we got to this stage of bad faith accusations.
That brings us to the points brought up by Balcer. This is all good what he says that taking some abstract "balance" to an absolute could be improper. But did Balcer actually check the article history before assigning the faults in "overbalancing"? Let me remind that it wasn't me who started "balancing". I added a single sentence about bridges destruction. As I said, as a born Kievan who knows and loves his city, I find this notable. Whoever been to Kiev knows how wide the Dnieper is there and how the bridges are both crucial and difficult to build. Whoever read anything about the history of the issue (and DDima and myself elaborated much on that in the Bridges of Kiev article) can't not know what an immense value, both day-to-day and symbolical, was attached to the masterpiece chain Nicholas bridge, the pride of the city. Perhaps telling is that no one dared to destroy the bridges of many of the powers that took and left Kiev at the time ( Reds, Greens, Whites, any of the yellow-and-blue ones or even Germans) despite everyone had their own military needs. Perhaps, they all, but the WWI Germans, considered this territory and its assets as their territory and their assets and, also, didn't want to alienate the Kievans, unless absolutely necessary. This makes them all certainly different from the Polish troops' attitude who invaded without any doubt that this is not their land (Germans don't really count since their withdrawal was orderly and they knew they would not be attacked) and, hence, the Poles didn't really care enough to not destroy the bridges.
So, I saw this notable, but as I said, I felt not too strong about it if it were removed. It was not me but Piotrus, who after my one sentence mention of bridges pasted the whole paragraph about the Red's atrocities from the Kiev Offensive article with the summary "Counterbalance with info from BB" ( The Black Book of Communism). So, who is that you accused "obsessed with balancing"?
No one but myself sees the bridges destruction important? Fine, we keep it in Kiev Offensive and Kiev bridges for now. Entire section needs gone? Also fine, provided it is spun off to a separate or a different article rather than simply blanked. Although, Piotrus' analogy about spinning off in other articles doesn't strictly apply. In Soviet partisans, the extra section was simply redundant since from the Soviet partisan perspective, the "...in PL" topics are covered in respective sections of other Soviet republics. Halibutt's alternative view that considers the SP in PL as a separate issue is a legitimate angle, though for a separate article. Also, as for H of PL, again, the extra sections "Treatment by the occupiers..." written (unsurprisingly by the same editor) also disrupted the article's text flow and the chronological flow of events. While a legitimate topic in itself, in such article as History of PL the material should be covered in the section that cover the specific period of time. OTOH, in the War article, treatment of the POW's seems relevant if not overly detailed. But I am open to compromises. If others want to see an entire "controversies" section spun off, go ahead. Just think for the best title for this text.
Also, should I have been out for revert warring (which I never am), why would I scrupulously edited the article following others' corrections to my edits? While some of mine edits were reverted by some here, I don't think I ever reverted, except some very few obvious cases. Take the infobox picture case. I was totally amazed that Piotrus preferred the propaganda painting by Kossak (who is the one pictured in the upper left corner, btw?) to the neutral map with the borders that this war brought about. I moved the image down and tidied up the entire layout only to be reverted on the spot by I don't remember who was telling me that Kossak's image allegorically illustrates the article (!). Why not use this image then??? And, note, that the image no less allegorical was for some reason not liked by the same editors in the other article's infobox.
Instead of calling the situation I am trying to address a "consensus", just think for a minute that I didn't post a note at the Russian and Ukrainian portals that would have immediately proven that the consensus here is a joke. I didn't want a revert war but the article's improvement. Instead, I get an assault by the Cabal.
Finally, to Piotrus' point about usability of sources, as an occasional reader of Wprost or Gazeta Wyborcza and a regular reader of Zerkalo Nedeli I seriously mind comparing the most respectable Weekly in Ukraine with the tabloid that publishes stuff like this or this. ZN has an English version that I invite Piotrus to check out before even comparing it with Marek Krol's tabloid. The articles for the weekly history section of Zerkalo are written by noted scholars and I am using exclusively those articles rather than speculations from the articles devoted to the modern politics. -- Irpen 01:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, I am not holding anyone's votes against anyone. We all made mistakes in the past, myself included. I simply wanted to point out that 3-4 Wikiepdians of similar backgrounds all agreeing on something is not a consensus, especially if the topic is controversial, like the war between the country of those Wikipedians and some other country.
You specifically accused me in overbalancing and only later added a note about others.
As to the bridges, fine, as I said. If this section goes, they go with it. If they just get removed, no big deal either. I still stand by my reasons why this section is a different case for deciding on spinning off that examples brought by Piotus (see above). But again, want to spin it off, go for it. Just don't blank it into an empty space.
You don't need to reply to my as you call "long essay". Suffice is that you read my entry and see my points. Regards, -- Irpen 04:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Id like to point out that Wikipedia isnt a place for grinding one's own axe. The point isnt to take a cherry-picked quote and present it as a holy fact, but to take a pool of quotations and views and carefully extract the NPOV. The disputed paragraph (Kiev offensive) is scandalously one-sided, with a narration that even the Great Soviet Encyclopedia wouldnt be abashed of. NPOV tag goes up until Ghirla's and Irpen's hogging isnt dealt with. Reichenbach 20:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't support sockpuppetry, be it by Russian, Polish or Martian editors. Considering that Reichenbach ( talk · contribs), who registered only today, seems quite familiar not only with wikipedia syntax and Irpen's edits to this article, but also with Ghirla's edits (and he has not been editing this article for quite some time), I feel very strongly that some more experienced wiki editor is engaging in Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry. Please stop this behaviour and use your real account, whoever you are. Such behaviour is never helpful, no matter what side and POV do you represent/fight.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Reichenbach, you cannot alter the original quotes. This is effectively putting the words in the scolar's mouth. The articles are written by us. The books we refer to are written by others and we cannot change a word in them. -- Irpen 23:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Please understand that what's questioned is not that the public opinion was pro-Soviet but it was so specifically due to a left-wing propaganda rather than other reasons. As such, the paper would prove nothing. There were certainly pro-Soviet publications in the West where many people at the time were not exactly happy with their conditions and blamed the rich and lack of social justice for that. To prove such claim you need a scholar's opinion that the pro-Soviet views where propaganda-caused rather than that they simply existed.
Also, your restoration of "totalitarian Soviet Russia" as a single alternative to the Polish-dominated mega-state is nothing but an unreferenced speculation.
Finally, the quotation marks near "alliance" were there for a reason. Calling the agreement between Pilsudski, who had an immense popularity among his people and a real army behind him, with Peltura, who was on the run with the nominal force, an ALLIANCE is a joke. Remember that Petlura came to power through a coup overthrowing another puppet gov (pro-German one) that also came to power through a coup. By this token you can call the stuff Osobka-Morawski signed with Stalin an "alliance" as well. -- Irpen 02:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Could you point out where I used the word ALLIANCE with respect to Soviet UA/Soviet RU mutual standing? I don't think I did. Pre-USSR Soviet UA was a nominal state with certain signs of statehood and insignificant legitimacy claims (derived from a small Bolshevik faction to Rada). While the original UPR was a real state to a degree a representative of its people too, the Petlura's one governemnt claim to represent it was questionable. Anyway, I didn't use an alliance for UkrSSR so the point is moot. -- Irpen 16:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, I never said that "most Ukrainians suported the reds". I said that many Ukrainians fought the Poles (in the Red ranks) which is true. As for Soviet communism being totalitarian, true but irrelevant to this article. The T. word is an anachronism if applied to that time's events. This is similar to talking about human rights concept or the Genocide concept in the context of the biblical times.
Besides, the Soviet oppression truly hit Ukraine in the 30s. "Suffered from Stalin's rule more than any other" quote may also be true but again, applied only to a much later time (1930s). In twenties, the Soviet policies were not at all anti-Ukrainian, to the contrary (read Ukrainization article I referenced very well) while the Treatment of minorities in Second Polish Republic was quite the opposite of examplary and yet remains to be written. It is the 1920s events that are for this article's immediate consern. Who can ever tell what happens in 10-15 years? This article speaks a lot on what Pilsudski "envisioned" but I doubt even he knew what would happen to Ukraine in 1930s. Neither he cared much, or at all, about Ukrainians as long as Poland was safe and Ukrainians, those barbarians, there didn't cause it any trouble by not wanting to become Poles or wanting at least an autonomy within Poland, what a blasphameous thought. -- Irpen 05:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
When we get the numbers, we will add them. For now we know that Ukrainians that fought the Poles were indeed many (see Abbott's ref) while Ukrainians with Petlura were few and we also don't know how many of the Petlurovites were of Polish ethnicity to begin with. And an empty apology is really just a word. It's action that count, including crashin of WUPR, Polonization closure of Orthodox churces and other unfavorable treatment of ethnic minorities in Second Polish Republic is what counts. As for your trying to suppress using Zerkalo Nedeli, see above. -- Irpen 18:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there an article about ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union? Do you contribute there Irpen?
Since 1945 thousands texts were printed in Communist Poland about mistreatment of ethnic minorities in pre-war Poland. Every child had to learn about it. Irpen believs he has discovered something new. Professor Tomaszewski alone has published at least 10 books on the subject. Do you know something what Tomaszewski doesn't?
Why don't you mention the context of the Polish "crimes" - Kurapaty, Holodomor, Belarussian and Ukrainian Soviet-sponsored terrorism? Xx236 07:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I adressed Irpen. See his contributions in the "Polish minority..." in History. Xx236 13:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
While this article is getting better (and longer...), the subarticles are in a poor shape. I'd suggest moving all items tagged with fact, dubious, etc. to subarticles so that this FA does not bloat to much and has no tags (which FAs should not have).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As I said earlier, fine by me even if the whole controverises section is spun off as long as there is a brief summary and a link from a main article even though I explained why this is different from precedents with History of Poland and Soviet partisans.
I object for now to removal of anything else until we settle with the article in general. It is still largely a Polonophile-POV. The work of bringing it to normalcy has just started (not even all Monachium-like things are yet corrected). Let's just work together constructively. -- Irpen 18:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why the fiction book, censored in the Soviet Union, is quoted, rather than Babel's original journal?
Why only Yakovlev's crimes are quoted? Because he switched to the Polish side? Even the "Konarmya" describes Bolshevik crimes. Xx236 13:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E2DA1E39F937A35755C0A963958260
Babel has described cruelties of both sides. If he is quoted (and "Konnarmya" isn't a source, it's fiction, you should confirm the story about Yakovlev from an another source), he should be quoted twice, both on the Bolshevik and Polish side. Meltyukhov books are't reviewed by Western historians. (Piotr has mentioned it before, I have just realized.) Xx236 08:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It's abusrd. I don't like to start a revert war.
Who claimed, he wanted to regain the control on formerly Russian land? In 1920? Western Ukraine wasn't a part of the Russian Empire, so what was the Red Army doing there?
Hello, is there anyone ???? Xx236 14:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not a case of "dubious". The beginning of the "featured" text contains absurd claims. Why shall I have respect for lies? I can eventually delete them, but I don't like revert war.
Xx236 08:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is bad. It isn't featured. Xx236 14:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, not only inline citations count. Look at the general citations. Besides, the degree in which they are used also matters. Russian citations are used for to support a specific claim or word, not for the whole article. Monachium could not have come either from English or from a Russian source or even from an editor who didn't have a specific intent to have it here, because unlike Volodarka "Battle" about which even Davies doesn't know, or "Wasylcowce", in case of Monachum there is no way our friendly co-editor would not know what English name one was supposed to use. And so on... -- Irpen 18:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a monograph about a particular conflict. Hardly it would ommit any significant battles. I don't deny the skirmish there took place and that it was immortalized by a propaganda painting. This yet doesn't qualify this event to be mentioned in the campaign box at the same level as Kiev offensive. Three books that I know about this war don't have a word "Volodarka". I think it's telling. -- Irpen 17:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"Lenin saw Poland as the bridge that the Red Army would have to cross in order to link up the Russian Revolution with the communist supporters in the German Revolution, and to assist other communist movements in Western Europe."
Either Lenin is biased or this article. Be integral and correct one of them. Xx236 08:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I saw this also - can you give a source as to Lenin's ambitions to conquer Europe, I thought he was plenty busy worrying about the Allied Expeditionary force and the White Russians. There may be memos etc about Lenin's plans but I seem to have never heard of them before.
"Политическое руководство второй Речи Посполитой (официальное наименование Польши в 1918-39 годах) сразу же приступило к занятию территорий, населенных этническими поляками." Nothing about "divisions". BTW - Western Silesia wasn't a part of Poland before the divisions. Xx236 09:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Was it "occupation" or rather cooperation with Petlura? Xx236 09:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that the Soviet "historiography" should influence the Wiki, the Nazi one doesn't. The story about Kiev bridges is too poetic for me. It should be mentioned how many bridges were destroyed and how seriously. Xx236 10:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Kiev doesn't mention "Polish occupation" and destruction of bridges. Poor Kiev people are unaware of Polish "terror". Xx236 11:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The main article is Kiev Offensive, why the same subjects are discussed here, if the article is too long? Xx236 11:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to consult the Ukrainian Wiki, Kiev is an Ukrainian city finally, rather than Irpenian. Xx236 11:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There should be a Poniatowski's Bridge article containing those informations.
I believe that one article should contain a broad description, Kiev Offensive or History of Kiev, the other ones short notes only. Xx236 11:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The victory parades in Brześć and other cities are unrelated to the issue here Irpen, and I see you continue to connect other articles, in what seems to be desire to pressure other editors to change articles regarding Soviet actions by editing Polish related articles in your own way, later promising changes if Soviets related articles are changed in favour of your POV. The Soviet victory parades(that took place in several cities btw, not only in Brześć) celebrating Nazi-Soviet alliance against Poland are featured in several materials regarding invasion of Poland by Soviets, they show quite well the circumstances of September 1939, Soviet-Nazi alliance and historic events. They are unrelated to this article and I see no reason to mention them here. -- Molobo 12:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 12:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"i" isn't standard English. Xx236 12:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the author of this text and I won't correct this Soviet propaganda. If you are an author, do your job correctly. Xx236 12:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Polish side claims something (who would believe them). The Soviets have proves (Fiction book) and accounts. Best wishes for all happy authors. Shall I correct everything myself and start a revert war? Xx236 12:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I have already written - "Konnarmya" is a fiction book, based on Babel's journal, so documentary value of the journal is bigger. Why "Konnarmya" is quoted rather than the journal? A fiction book can eventually indicate a problem (Vadim Yakovlev) but not be quoted here and in Vadim Yakovlevas an evidence. This way we have an evidence that Colonel Wołodyjowski was in reality exactly as described by Sienkiewicz - he wasn't.
"Both sides raised charges of other violations of the laws of war"
"The Polish side claimed" but "There is evidence" on the other side.
These are quotes from the article. Has anyone read the article recently?
"pogroms i" is still there. Xx236 12:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
"Konarmy" is a fiction book. I doubt anyone quotes "For Whom the Bell Tolls" as a "source" about the Spanish war. There can be a section/article "The war in books/films" for such quotations. "Konarmy" has been censored. Xx236 12:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus a "Russian web-site" is actually a pro-White movement one and the article there is actually positive towards Bulak-B, that's where the ref about public executions come from. The claim about him throwing Bolshevik's heads is from the diary of BB's comrade in arms, another Polish officer. Also, clearly shown in the article. Claim about the Poles shelling Borisov is sourced to where it comes from, Russian diplomatic note. So, where something is sourced only to the claims made by the Russians, the article clearly says so. Now, to the claims about Russian atrocities. The Berdychiv issue, was first brought up in the protest of the Polish Red Cross addressed towards the International Red Cross. I will change the "Polish side" to "Polish Red Cross". I have no idea about the origin of the Black Book claims as I wrote above. That its authors have been criticized by an academic community and praised by the Western Press is all I know about this "academic" publication. I suggest you dig out how exactly the claim about Budyony's atrocities is framed there and reformulate this, if you want. Note, I didn't add "According to a higly controvercial Black Book..." before your claim. When we talk about the Trotsky's claim, we note that it was false. When we talk about the bridges, it is not doubted by anyone. If we end up not spinning this off, bridges may go. If we end up spinning off the section, bridges may stay. I have no strong objections against spinning off even though I explained how this here is different from the Partisans and history of PL precedents, where the info was simply redundant.
On a side note, I did some rereading on the diplomatic games, but this would be the subject of a separate discussion of the "Diplomatic Front, Part 2: The political games" section. Later, -_ Irpen 18:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
"Black Book" quotes sources. Are the sources unreliable? Which ones? Irpen, you have a bolshevik agenda, with more than 20 million victims, censorship, false documents, and you accuse academic works of being biased. Xx236 12:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, this criticism is about the Konarmiya fiction book, not the diary, which is a documentary. There are plenty of reviews of the diary available online and the diary itself is on google books. Anyone can check. I think it documents the crimes of both sides and is an important source for the topic. I reread it lately (it isn't too long) and recommend anyone with time and access to do the same -- Irpen 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The line "...victories over the white anticommunist forces and their western allies". There was no victory over their "western allies", just the whites. The russians fought very rarely against the small allied forces and usually lost. There was no victory against the allies since they weren't there to fight them at all. Just to watch over territory and reignite the eastern front. Please get that straight as this is not the only article thats stats this. RomanYankee( 68.227.211.175 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC))
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.Take a look at the following fragment:
Piłsudski, who specifically argued that "There can be no independent Poland without an independent Ukraine", really meant Ukraine being split from Russia rather than had any real concern for the fate of the Ukrainians. He did not hesitate to use military force to expand the Polish borders to Galicia and Volhynia, crushing a Ukrainian attempt at self-determination in the disputed territories east of the Western Bug river, which contained a significant Polish minority, mainly in cities like Lwów (Lviv)...
Instead of taking a pool of sources and extracting an NPOV balance, we have arguable ones presenting a one-sided interpretation of events, going insofar as to put words in Pilsudski's mouth, presented as divine truth. Wikipedia isnt about plagiarizing selective authors' quotes to suit certain POVs, but writing a collaborative encyclopedia backed (not copied) by a broad spectrum of sources. There are multitudes of sources interpreting the disputed facts differently, does that mean that I get to purge the current ones and replace them with my own nitpicked quotes proving the contrary?
Another possible interpretation to illustrate my point is: "Pilsudski foresaw the dangers posed to the Ukrainians by the Soviets, exemplified in such events as the Holodomor" or, God forbid, something neutral and less charged like "following the Polish-Ukrainian War". This issue needs some straightening out and balancing if the article is to maintain featured status. Reichenbach 16:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Repercussions of this continue (to a diminishing extent) to affect relations between the two countries."
What about Lithuanian participation in Ponary masscre of ethnic Poles and expulsion of Poles after the war? Xx236 12:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several citation requests in main body. If you can help and provide the relevant references, please do so, this is a FAC-level article and we should address such issues as a priority.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As Piotrus wrote in his edit summary, it seemed to him, as well as to myself, that the fact that Miedzymorze was supposed to be Polish-led seemed to him obvious. So it was to me. Nevertheless, Halibutt, Lysy and anon either just deleted that and tried to replace Polish-led by "democratic" or tried to add the word making it "Polish-led and democratic". While I had to add four refs to support an obvious statement about the Polish domination, the ref added in support of democratic contradicts other refs that defy trhe "democraticness" of Pilsudski. As Billington said in the ref now in the article, Pilsudski affinity to dictatorship betrayed any notion of democracy (see article for the full quote). So, the "democracy" here is not agreeable within refs and, also, clearly defied by history as we all know that Pilsudski did not hesitate to stage a coup against the democratically elected government as well as to rig the election and throw his opponents in jails (see Tadeusz Jordan-Rozwadowski, Polish legislative election, 1930 and May Coup for Pilsudski's committment to democracy). -- Irpen 04:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, setting aside the fact that as you yourself admit you are a lone voice against a consensus of other editors, I provide a good reference about a democratic nature of Miedzymorze federation. Speculating that it would not be so on the basis on Piłsudski's latter actions, while interesting, is just your own counter-factual speculation, Irpen, but let me counter this speculation with another: people change, and Piłsudski was much more pro-democracy in 1919-20 then five years later. As Halibutt points out, his actions during the May Coup are actions of a quite different, changed man, in a quite different speculation. Setting this aside, please find an academic reference that shows Miedzymorze would not be democratic, or stop removing the current referenced citation to it important characteristic (important, as it is a nice counterbalance to the definetly not democratic Soviet 'federation' we are all much more familiar with).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
...And following this, I was reverted by Piotrus, this time with the following summary:
Piotrus, too bad you did not check talk before accusing me in not using it. This is plain obvious and I will repeat the arguments just for you. There is no disagreement among the scholars that Miedzymorze was going to be "Polish-led". Many say so and no one says the opposite. As for it being "democratic", there is a source, you added, that says so, but there are sources that say quite an opposite. The Billington's ref was already in the article. I just added another one. Besides, the sources that say otherwise are supported by the latter history as Pilsudski showed zero respect towards the progressive democratic political culture.
Well, then, since you persisted in inserting the statement supported only by selected sources, I purged "democratic" from the lead only (because it is disputed among the sources) and I added the sourced "anti-Democratic" claim in the text to provide the full set of opinions thus fulfilling your request for references that show "Miedzymorze would not be democratic". Regards, -- Irpen 21:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, if you persist with forking the discussion that rightfully belongs to Miedzymorze article, I will have to complement your sources with the ones that say the opposite. This is called NPOV, both sides arguments deserve presentation and the reader is left to judge. The version where I presented the reader with two sides [8] was promptly reverted (along with refs I added) by Rechenbach [9] and by Lysy [10]. One more time I propose to leave this discussion to Miedzymorze article but if you or those who revert to your version persist to fork it here, please at least do not revert the sources I will add that view the situation differently and advise your colleagues about the same. -- Irpen 22:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, I removed Truskoff. I also made it clear that the ref to Zerkalo is in fact to a book by a professor of History, Oleksa Pidlutskyi. Zerkalo merely reprinted the chapter of this book and this is very convenient for us as it is available online to use. -- Irpen 01:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Oleksa Pidlutskyi is a professor of Communist economy. Xx236 08:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 09:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
biografia Xx236 10:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There were Soviet-Ukrainian fights after the armistice, which should be mentioned. Xx236 08:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as well as PL sponsored post war incursions into Belarus. -- Irpen 19:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Robert Conquest mentioned guerrilla revolts (relatively small, consisting of units of 100 or so armed fighters) in Ukraine until the late 1920s. Nestor Makhno fought the Bolshiviks until August 1921. Faustian 19:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This is another useful source: a short article on Covert Polish missions across the Soviet Ukrainian border, 1928-1933 ( p.1, p.2, p.3, p.4, [p.5 - luckily all 5 pages are visible via Google Print). I specifically like the part about Holodomor refugees in Poland hoping for Polish liberation of Ukraine... The author is Timothy Snyder, although the book seems to have been printed in Italy.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
We have sources that describe the result as Soviet defeat ( [11], [12]); that obviously equals Polish victory. Do we have any sources to the contrary? If not, then please stop reverting Polish victory. Of course feel free to expand the footnote which describes why it was not a total victory, but the fact remains that it was the Soviets who were defeated at Warsaw and sued for peace, not the other way around.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Besides the fact that the result is confirmed by two references, please note that FAC consensus was for 'Polish victory'. The consensus was undisputably reached in April 2005 when the article was featured. Last vote at that time took place on 21 April, this is the article after last edit on that day; you can see the article states the war ended with a Polish victory - the point which some users are disputing.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Would a 'minor Polish victory' be a good compromise to everyone? Irpen supported it last year, and so did I.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 03:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Why pushing a POV words like "camouflaging campaign as join effort instead of naked aggression"? I mean I don't care it came from some pro-Soviet source. If this was another offensive in a war, then how you acn use "naked aggression" sentence at all? Not to mention the clear POVness of such formulation Szopen 12:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
From Kiev Offensive talk: While I agree that some citations dont hurt, there is some evident tendentious bias in mass quoting of everything that is extremely unfavourable to Poland several times in the article, in situations where a simple reference would suffice. One good ref would be much better than, say, an obscure citation from "Zerkalo Nedeli" on an article of this scope. Thoughts? Reichenbach 12:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The article has been stable for months and all of a sudden someone decide again to prop up the glorification of the Polish military hisotry and change the outcome (long time ago settled to a neutral version) to the Polish victory. The tag of war was picked up by several familiar editors who insist on removing the referenced info, along with references, and resolt to sloppy fast hand reverts of the edits that merged lots of info into the article, in fact hours of my work. I leave this in disgust until I see some resemblence of reasonable editing. The article, with the result POVed, sourced statements and sources deleted is tagged appropriately. -- Irpen 22:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
In response to Balcer, why not look for the course of an entire war, like Kiev debacle? If not the victory in Warsaw, the outcome would have been "decisive Polish defeat" instead of inconclusive.
In response to Piotrus above, No, I don't find "Minor Polish victory" appropriate either. I accepted it when we where choosing between different victories, defeats, inconclusive outcomes. No one came up with the Peace of Riga at that stage. Now, when we have this option, I see no need for a POV result.
Note, that this row over a stable article was started in a familiar way. Somebody decided all of a sudden, that Polish miltary glory needs a prop up and changed an outcome from a stable version, there for months. -- Irpen 16:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The end of the WW2 was a total disintegration of Germany and its seeing it left to the Mercy of the allies. Your analogy does not fly. Poland wanted Ukraine (read Britannica) and did not get it. Soviets found out that they actually may get the whole Poland (they did not plan it in the start) but also did not get it. -- Irpen 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, you, and not me, brought up the WW2 analogy that you now concede was "highly exceptional in international affairs". In some of the other wars, one state fulfilled its goals why the other did not. In PSW, Poland's goal was to achieve a PL dominated Ukraine. This goal was not achieved. Soviets did not have a clear goal in the start at all. When Sovietization of Poland started to seem feasable, it became a goal which also was not achieved. Ukraine, the main bounty in that game, went to Soviets while Poland actually got only the part of Ukraine it had before the war. -- Irpen 17:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, Polish future plans for UA are not "hypothetical". They are all in the Pilsidski/Petlura treaty.
As for the definign the border, there was a Polish de-facto control of the territory it conquered from crushing Western Ukrainian Republic. Poland decided, it also wants an entire Ukraine as a sattelite state. It did not get it. In the end, Poland ended up with what it conquered before the war. -- Irpen 19:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Polish plans for Ukraine are not hypothetical but real and known. They were not implemented but we do not need to hypothesize what they were. The treaty says it all. I don't think PL would have succeeded in oppressing the whole Ukraine. It hardly managed with 1/4 of it in the interwar years, but it is a different thing from saying that it would not have tried. Actually it did try that, both in Galicia and Volhynia (for 20 years after the war) AND in central Ukraine where the action of the occupiers are vividly described by the Babel's diary (a documentary, not a fiction book). I can't tell much of Belarus at this point.
The end line is, what's wrong with Peace of Riga? You want to point me to RJ War? I can point you to Yom Kippur War. What's your problem with the Peace of Riga? -- Irpen 19:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Debo's other quotes were innaccurate (i.e., when he claimed that Ukrainian participation was inconsequential - Ukrainians made up about 19% of the invasion force and were given full control over Kiev), so I'm wondering what his sources were. Also, I wonder about his claims about the Treaty between Pilsudski and Petliura. When he mentioned Ukraine's obligations but failed to note Poland's reciprocal obligation under the treaty, this indicated to me that he was trying to present a one-sided (and thus innacurate and tendentious) part of the story. This might reflect his choice fo primary sources for his book. I read parts of the treaty in one of Davies' works a few years ago, so my memory is not perfect (perhaps one of our Polish friends can find it?) I know that Poland was granted extensive rights to invest in Ukraine's industries and mines (something the French had in those and other parts of the russian Empire before the revolution) but this was no more domination than that enjoyed by, for example, the French. As for military subordination - it seems to have been something along the lines of NATO. Were Germany, Italy, etc. militarily subordinated to America during the cold War? Certainly such a situation would have involved far far less subordination than that of Soviet Ukraine to Moscow. regards Faustian 19:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Since we started to discuss plans for Ukraine (non-hypothetical, if not well described on wiki yet) and hypothetical future, I have a treat for the Polish-speaking editors: fragment of (relativly) new short story by Andrzej Pilipiuk, to my knowledge the only one alternative history dealing with what would happen if Prometheism worked out and Poland would 'liberate' Ukraine by invading Soviet Union in late 1920s or early 1930s. A great read, which I strongly recommend, especially as in this book (of Polish author) the main hero is a Ukrainian patriotic 'freedom fighter' (and a positive character at that).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
My impression was that Polish firms would get first choice in the construction of mines, and would get a major share of Ukraine's industries, etc. Poland did a lot for Ukraine and expected a lot in return. The situation would perhaps be comparable to, for example, the American/British role in Iran's oil industry under the shah. Ukraine would have been heavily influenced and affected by Poland, but would not have been a puppet of Poland in the way that, for example, the states of eastern Europe were puppets of the USSR during the Cold War. Faustian 00:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Davies, p.263 of WERS, states that the war ended in stalmate, no side can be considered victorious.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The Galicians were quite conservative and thus maintained cordial relations with Russia's Whites (resulting in conflicts with the Reds). So I was suspsicious of the claims abou tthem joining the Reds despite their dislike of the Poles. My suspecions seem to have been correct. From the Encyclopedia of Ukraine (full reference in the article):
"As a result of the retreat of the White Russian army, Bolshevik units on November 19, 1919 reached the garrison of the Ukrainian Galician units near Vynnytsia. The Galician High Command ordered the troops to abandon sick soldiers and to move to Odessa where the army of General Denikin had retreated. To protect thousands of sick soldiers from hostile treatment by the Bolsheviks a Galician Revolutionary Committee was formed in Vynnytsia under N. Hirniak. It refused to obey the orders of the Galician High COmmand and began negotiations with the Red Army for the inclusion in it of the Galician units...the Galician Revolutionary Committee on January 12, 1920 made an agreement with the command of the Soviet 12th army, by which the Galician forces became a component of the Soviet 12th army, as the Red Ukrainian Galician Army (Red UHA). Bolshevik authorities arrested Generals Mykytka and Ziritz and tried to destroy the national character of the Galician units; they did not succeed in this however...the opportunistic nature of the agreement with the Bolsheviks was revealed when the Galician units of the Red UHA encountered the forces of the UNR in April 1920. then the Galician Second Cavalry Brigade commanded by George Sheparovych and the Third Brigade joined the UNR forces. But the Poles disarmed both brigades and interred them in Polish camps. The First Brigade of the Galician Sich Riflemen, surrounded by the Poles in Pykivka, laid down its arms. The officers and men who succeeded in escaping internment entered the sixth Kherson Division of the UNR...after some Galician units went over to the UNR the Bolsheviks punished or deported many of the remaining Galician soldiers." Faustian
At 101kb, this article is getting too long. Please think what can be moved to the subarticles (see {{ Polish-Soviet War}}), please also note that they have not been updated since the article was FAed, and may contain some POVed/unreferenced parts. I'd also like to split off the controversies section, it was added after the FA and we can shave few kbs of the articles by linking it from a single sentence about controversies related to this war.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the UGA, the "Pygmy Wars" website is back up and has a LOT of information (taken, I think, largely from Kubiyovych's Encyclopedia...) Faustian
I split the section and some other pieces, we need to keep this article under 100kb :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I objected to the spinoff proposal in my 04:21, October 29, 2006 entry at this talk. Your spin-off edit took place 17:43, October 30, 2006, that is way after. Thus, after my voicing an objection and the discussion over a disagreement still onloing, you decided to force it your way without a single editor, other than us who disagreed, expressing himself on the issue. Note, that we both agreed on two parts to be spun-off. You, however, kept those but removed the section over which the agreement was just not there. As for this being unimportant, I would rather call it inconvenient. Makes a difference. -- Irpen 06:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
As you can see, over the past weeks I have been adding more inline cits to the article, but there are still many unreferenced facts. Any help with referencing facts (and numbers!) would be greatly appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following senctence. "however as that operation was codenamed 'Target Vistula' it caused much concern among the Poles." [1]
The note in Russian westward offensive of 1918-1919 claims that this name does not exist in the historiography of the period. Also the sentence is trivial and of small notability. Joelito ( talk) 18:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
This comment is addressed to Irpen who reverted my change, but of course I would appreciate any input by other editors.
Here is what the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on the Russo-Polish War says in its three first sentences:
Russo-Polish War (1919–20), military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine. It resulted in the establishment of the Russo-Polish border that existed until 1939.
Although there had been hostilities between the two countries during 1919, the conflict began when the Polish head of state Józef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura (April 21, 1920) and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7.
So, the first sentence implies the war started in 1919, and the third that it started in 1920. Which one should we believe? Clearly, we have a case of a reference which blatantly contradicts itself. If we really want to include a reference to Encyclopedia Britannica, we must be honest, and not quote the sentence which favours one point of view.
The article currently claims that: Encyclopedia Britannica considers the Polish thrust into Ukraine of 1920 as the starting point of the war. This is obviously not the whole truth. We must reword the statement to correctly represent what that encyclopedia actually says. I await proposals from Irpen on how to handle this conundrum. Balcer 01:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I commented out text that had citation requests for some weeks now and that nobody referenced (and I looked for that data).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am currently working at the german version of this article ( Polnisch-Sowjetischer Krieg). First me and another user started to de-POV a version that was unbearably stuffed with Soviet propganda formulas. (we used the enwiki-Article). During that I got interested in the topic did some additional work. The article is currently running to be featured article in dewiki. My major problem now is a lack of literature. I have used Evan, Mawdsley : The Russian Civil War(for military issues), Davies, Norman : White Eagle - Red Star (for political issues) and I also searched the Blackbook of Communism. The thing is Davies describes war-crimes and civilian sufferings quite briefly. The other authors miss these issues completely. Could somebody give me the title of a book, which has more information about war-crimes and civilian casualies in the Polish-Soviet War ?? Greetings and Best Wishes Nasiruddin Discussion Nov 16th 19:09 2006
What relevance does the recovery of Ukrainian and Belorussian territory by Russia in 1772-1795 have in this conflict? If history from 120 years prior is to be taken into perspective, then perhaps it should also be mentioned that Lithuania and Poland seized land from Russia during the Riurikid dynasty in the 14th century. The land Poland was trying to sieze was predominantly inhabited by East Slavic peoples who wanted nothing to do with Poland. It would be like trying to justify an attempt by Turkey to invade Greece and Bulgaria on the basis of "undoing Russian aggression".
This war shows that the soviets were never really that much of a war machine that was to be propped up. The russains never could fight on the offensive. They could fight on the defensive. YankeeRoman( 70.187.232.85 16:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC))
Since Battle of Warsaw (1920) is FA already, I think we need to find another pic for PSW warbox (since they are usually chosen for the main page). I think map of the entire war would be the best - any chance sb could find one we can use of make one (wink, Halibutt, map specialist, wink :>) ? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- Halibu tt 16:12, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
I understand that this is an FA and extra care is needed, but I viewed lead needed corrections and with disagreement between my and Lysy's edits I suggest we discuss this here.
First of all, let me quote how EB article gets to it:
As one can see, Britannica says that the war started with Kiev Offensive (1920). I suggest we, at least, return to a version which doesn't point to a specific side which started the war. -- Irpen
Second, regarding the "spreading of the revolution to Europe". This is at least debatable. Bolsheviks really had more importnat things to worry about at that time and even this talk page above discusses this. This is a notable version of Soviet motives, but not undisputable enough to be in the lead. -- Irpen
Depending on how one views what started the war, the version of "attempted to defend just recovered territories" while EB says "...attempted to seize Ukraine" is not appropriate for the lead. -- Irpen
Finally, I don't see the reason to link to such trivial notions as war as border. I will revert for now, but I hope with this explanation my revert will not be considered hostile. I am willing to discuss any disagreements. Please, also check Talk:Kiev Offensive (1920).
-- Irpen 19:03, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
Then I am sorry. I would not take it personally, though, if my version is reverted provided that a similarly good faith explanation followed. I agree with you that maybe some rephrasing would help further. However, I am sure about a couple of things. -- Irpen
First, I do not deny the RA's Vilnius attack. But we cannot just say that the war started with the Red Army Vilnius offensive while EB says it started from Pisludski's Kiev offensive. We either don't point who is an aggressor, or say that it was Poland, as per EB. -- Irpen
Also, at that point both states existed already, both were somewhat endangered and both viewed to expand into the buffer territories and viewed the past possession of these lands (100+ and 5 years prior, respectively) as a justufucation of their natural right to do so. "Recapture" certainly applied to Kiev offence which is still softer than "capture". A softer word is needed for the other side. Maybe recover is too soft. How about "retake controll"? -- Irpen
As for the "world revolution", the plans of revolution expansion are notable, but I don't see them to be anywhere close to the main motivation to be in the lead. -- Irpen
Finally, I would change the outcome from current version to "inconclusive (each side claimed victory)". Let's try to work it out. -- Irpen 21:21, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
Woysyl, thanks! My current reply is in my recent edit. Now point to point. EB is not a bible all right. But EB is an importnat enough indicator of one of mainstream views (in cases when there is no single view) and we cannot just contradict it and say the opposite pointing to the Vilnius as the start of the war. Now, regarding "recover, regain, expand, intrude, invade" issue. There is no question that both sides were aggressors towards the neighboring states. The main piece of real estate in the war was Ukraine and Ukrainian view is important. Whatever Petlyura was doing and allying himself, Ukrainians, unsuccesfull with their own attempts of independence, did view the Poles with more hostility than the RA and the number of Ukrainians that were fighting on each side, if anything else, is an indicator. Poland existed already and it wanted to expand. It somewhat succeeded. Then the Red Army, which was not disconnected from pro-Soviet Ukrainian forces, retook an initiative. Reds were also fighting to get territory under their control, no doubt. At Warsaw, they got their ass kicked and situation reached a draw. Each side got a piece of UA, each side kept the control of their "proper". Each side initially wanted it all. I say, this is "inconclusive". Is the current version acceptable? -- Irpen 22:56, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
I read the archive with interest. I still disagree with "Minor victory" wording. The survival of PL independence is not the victory of PL in the war, because it was not at stake at its beginning. Yes, it got in the picture after Bolshevik successes but they were rather unexpected to the Bolsheviks themselves. France, as a nation, survived the Napoleonic war. It still lost. "Large territorial concessions" doesn't fit here too, in my view. Both sides (RU and PL) got chunks of the territory and not on account of each other but of the buffer areas. Each wanted all, each got part. In the course, the very survival of PL suddenly also became disputable. Thanks god (this is my POV) PL stayed on.
Now, a view of Tukhachevsky, is a thing to consider. But we have to understand that he was in charge of an attack, that went bust. He lost his attack but no one lost the war. Both gained and who really lost, were UA and BE. As for PL and RU they both won some, just less than they might have wanted. So "Inconclusive (Poland claimed victory)" is an appropriate wording, I think.
As for the remaining edits: (1) I removed "after its being partioned for over 100 years" which I myself inserted in the lead recently only because the lead is getting too long. It's fine with me if it stays though. (2) While there were ethnic Poles too in the territory Poland "sought to recover", it tried to "recover" the areas which it lost not just 100, but a good 200-300 years ago (Kiev, for example). Pisludski's adventure (sorry if the word offends anyone) was an aggression with no doubt. OTOH, some of the gains were all but "unfair" and "expansion", is the right word, I think.It is still softer than more blunt language of EB ("attempt to seize UA"). I am just not sure, whether Piotrus and Lysy are still around to reply soon, so my daring to go again back to the article and correct should not be taken as a disregard. This is Wiki and everyone has an edit button. BTW, Kiev Offensive (1920), is in similar need of attention. With best regards, -- Irpen 23:47, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
The Polish reference (sorry, I cannot independently check it) is at the end paragraph of the discussion about the Russian-German alliance/treaty (non-Russian reference). Throughout the discussion I gave you an example of a post-war Bolshevik song that glorified the war (contemporary non-Polish reference). Neither EB, nor Encarta, nor Soviet Encyclopedia came to an explicit conclusion that the war was won by Poland. Of cause, there are other sources that did. Importantly, “victory”, unless an unconditional surrender has happened, is not an indisputable fact, but an interpretation of the facts. How can we achieve objectivity? We can rely on the truly primary sources, such as the treaty of Riga. We may also rely on de facto results of the war. In either case we will see that in 1921 Bolsheviks dominated more land than they did in 1919. They also had less money. They also remained strong enough to finish the conquest of most of the Russian Empire. These facts are not contested by anyone so far. Therefore, based on the facts only, Bolsheviks did not lose the war and did not win it either. Of cause, the victory claims of the warring parties and their allies are inherently biased (e.g. both claimed liberation of Ukraine). The claims of what the warring parties “really” wanted are not factual, but speculative in nature (e.g. whether it was more important for the Bolsheviks to have Poland in the Russian-dominated USSR than it was for Poland to have Ukraine in the Polish-dominated Miedzymorze). Therefore, the interpretations of a victory based on such speculations (whether the original source of such speculations could be pointed out or not) are also inherently speculative. Should we have something like “Polish victory (according to Davies)” in the battlebox? Indeed, as this discussion shows, a large group of people, hopefully, acting in a good faith, could be presented with the same information and speculations about PSW and yet produce diverse interpretations as to the validity of the victory claim. This is an experimental fact, not an interpretation, POV, etc., and the current page is the primary source to prove it. Why not to reflect this fact in the battlebox, regardless of whether someone is pleased with it or not? -- EugeneK 04:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
If all sources that claim Poland won the war (not the miraculous battle of Warsaw) are from within Poland, we need to take this conslusion with caution. From what I can see, Tukhachevsky is talking about loss of his offensive and not the war. This reminds me of a soccer game that one team is winning 1:0. Then at the last minute, it turns to 1:1, and there is a psychological effect of defeat of the side that almost won and the triumph of the side that almost lost. Let's just find non-Polish sources that say that PL won the war. Until then, I oppose the current edition which not only changed "inconclusive" to "PL victory" but even doesn't mention "commonly disputed". From what I see in the discussion, the article itself, from the sources quoted (no outside of PL sources that give it victory with Tukhachevsky admitting lost battle but not the war) and from the real facts on the ground, the most logical outcome I see is "Inconclusive (Poland claimed victory)". -- Irpen 21:37, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Could you just quote, what exactly he is saying? -- Irpen 23:05, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
This is in response to the Q above and to a remark a couple of paragraphs above that I just "don't you want to accept things that don't support my view". To start with, I don't have much of the "view" on this. Didn't have anyway, since I knew about these events only in general. This article, as well as PL-UA War and Kiev Offensive articles stroke me as one sided just by the way they feel first of all. I didn't and still don't say that they were written by POV pushers. I know some of the article's contributors through other topics well enough to safely assume good faith. It is just written from the Polish perspective and stayed so because knowledgeable RU/UA authors didn't bother to participate.
A couple of edtiors, myslef not a very "knowledgeable" I admit, finally got to it and we got to agreement in several changes. There are two sticking points for now as far as the lead is concerned. "17-th century" issue and the war outcome. Arguing got stuck in a circle or two and we just need to check outside. I do not consider Davies a final authority but he is certainly one of respectable authors. I am interested to see his account. Should I promise to agree not matter what he says? I agree that what he says is important to consider in the outcome of our discussion. What's more that you want me? There is really no need to get into accusation here towards "you and EugeneK". It is no doubt good for the article that we got some of our hands on it as it already evolved towards a version that is acceptable to more parties, hence a more neutral and better version. -- Irpen 23:31, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
What are the indications that Bosheviks were in “a mood of buoyant optimism” in 1919? Wasn’t this the time when the Whites under general Yudenich were besieging Petrograd , the Whites under Denikin (in 1920 - under Wrangel) were still controlling a piece of Ukraine and the Japanese still were going strong against the Bolsheviks in the Far East? The diplomatic account would point a mood of mortal fear: in 1919 the Bolsheviks expressed a constant willingness to offer concessions and peace treaties to almost anyone, from the White to the Poles. The fact that most of those offers were rejected suggests the Bolsheviks were not viewed as superior contenders at the time. If the statement about “a mood of buoyant optimism” is unsubstantiated, would the author please remove it?
I have an impression that Lenin’s words about Poland and Bolshevik bayonets are taken from his inspirational address to the young volunteers marching up to the front (already existent). In this case, it is not surprising that the leader sending his troops into a battle sounds overly excited and optimistic (The speech also promised the total victory of communism in their lifetime), although he understands that the reality is much more precarious and uncertain. I admit that my knowledge of Lenin’s speeches is quite rudimentary, but would it be possible for the person who used the quote in the article to check and reveal to the others what was its original context and date?-- EugeneK 03:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Between Lysy and EugeneK is copied from User talk:EugeneK
You mentioned that Polish victory of Polish-Soviet war is commonly disputed. Would you comment on this ? Thanks. -- Lysy ( talk) 18:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, I need to state that my view may be somewhat biased (the Polish way). Anyway, stating that Polish victory in this war is disputed is quite shocking to me. As far as I understand it, the Bolsheviks attacked Poles in the beginning of 1919 but then in the course of war most of their armies were annihilated in the Battle of Warsaw and the remaining two armies retreated. I understand that this may be the question of Russian national pride, but usually the retreating army is the one that was defeated. This war was silently ignored in the official history of Poland in the times when Poland was under Soviet domination after WW2. To me this is clearly the sign the Soviets attempted to hide their defeat. -- Lysy ( talk) 20:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Similarly to the Polish propaganda, Soviet historians always view the Polish assault into Lithuania, Ukraine and Byelorussia as the beginning of the war, while ignoring the earlier minor skirmishes of Bolsheviks with ethnic Poles (even the original wiki page claims that those were spontaneous and did not include regular units). Soviet historians maintained that their country (the leftovers of the Russian Empire under the Bolshevik rule), which was severely weakened by the civil war and foreign intervention, was attacked by the Polish “capitalists” and nationalists, who crossed the boundaries of their ethnic state and also brought a few puppets of Ukrainian origin with them. The international (not just Russian) Red Army, which included Ukrainians and communist “good” Poles (who were the commanders of that army), drove the “bad” Poles farther west than the original border suggested in the pre-war negotiations. Ukraine and Byelorussia were partially liberated and made independent, but then, with a few other newly independent territories, chose to form a union known as the USSR. The army that retreats after a battle is generally believed to have lost the battle. A country that retreats and looses its territory and wealth may be considered a looser in the war. Both armies have retreated and advanced, at least locally, several times, including a Polish retreat up to its capital (Poles won the battle of Warsaw, not the battle of Moscow or St.Petersburg). Both suffered great losses (although the Polish losses were much greater. In fact, the claim that the Red Army was lost in that war does not add up: both armies started with equal numbers on that front, Russian had huge resources of manpower elsewhere, Poles suffered greater losses – who ended up with more soldiers left?). Both were tired (although the Bolsheviks still retained enough force to re-conquer the bulk of the Russian Empire and repel other invaders). Neither lost territory at the end (although by going for the war Poland lost a chance to get a bigger piece of the contested land). Neither gained fully what it wanted. Neither was willing to pursue the war any further. Isn’t it a classical stalemate, regardless of what any propaganda calls it?
The Soviets hardly considered this war as a separate conflict, but rather a part of the civil war that engulfed the former multinational Russian Empire, of which Poland was only a part. The avoidance of the topic by later Polish communists is very understandable, as the war buried the hopes to form a Greater Poland, and most of the Poles fought against their future communist masters. Similarly silently ignored in the Soviet states were all the successful Russian and Soviet wars that “liberated” many of its neighbors (e.g. Caucasus, the Baltic states) against their will.
I can understand that this conflict, being the last chance for Poland to restore its medieval greatness, is a touchy topic for Poles and a hot topic for Polish propaganda, especially at the time when the relationship with its eastern neighbors are at the all-time low. I also understand that the original article was written by Polish patriots who obviously stressed every Polish success and hushed down every setback. But I would like to reiterate that it is a simple statement of the fact that Polish victory in the war is commonly disputed, at least by the people who are aware of a non-Polish viewpoint.
The statement that only the Russians dispute Polish victory is a very misleading one, and you could easily find non-Russians (including yours truly) who are uneasy about an obviously polo-centric nature of the article. If we are to contribute to an international encyclopedia, we have to maintain some objectivity. Please, reverse the statement to “commonly disputed” or, if you prefer to be more objective “stalemate.”
Talking about non-Russians questioning Polish victory: "Perhaps the result should be described as unconclusive?" is a suggestion apparently added to the discussion by the Polish author of the original page.
Halibutt, you are trying to break into a house that's not locked. This is extensively discussed and agreed already. There are more urgent issues to address now at this and related articles, don't you think? -- Irpen 23:38, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Another view: There simply is no one on the Bolshevik side who believed the USSR got anything out of this war. The Commissar of War: Leon Trotsky, OPPOSED the war from the get go, Stalin sabotoged it and the political conditions for a socialist victory at Warsaw were non-existent. The Russians simply don't claim victory.
Secondly, while the Russian *lost* the war, they did prevent further expansion of the "Polish Empire" from becoming a reality. The Poles LOST some of of the Western Ukraine, pleasing Ukranian nationalists to no end, AND pleasing Rakovsky's Soviet gov't in the Ukraine also. Lvov wasn't returned to Ukraine as Ukrainian communists and nationalists had hoped, but wait 19 years and that's that. Regardless of Poland's dreams of empire, the dream died in their victory.
Thirdly, whatever was settled by the 1920 agreement vanished FOREVER in 1945 when the boundries were declared and the USSR kept almost everything it wanted from 1939. In large part the stage was set by the 'victory' of the Polish forces in 1920
--David Walters, December 2, 2006
Dreams of Polish empire? Mr. Walters, have you read the discussion? As you know, Polish negotiators at Riga refused to accept more territories, as you know no political party in Poland dreamt about Polish empire. ND had the plan to acquiring only as much territory, which could be safely polonised - they got something short of their expectations, but they weren't the Polish state. Szopen 08:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The topic of when the Ukrainian lands were under Polish control seems to evoke a controversy and multiple edits. It appears that Kiev and the adjacent areas came under Polish rule in 1569 under the Union of Lublin, were liberated by Ukrainians around 1648, and came under Russian protectorate a decade later. If this topic has to be mentioned in the article at all, would it be appropriate to mention that these territories were controlled by Poland only for a century and were lost in the 17th century?-- EugeneK 15:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Re what Pilsudski (sorry, I have no diatrics in my kb) "assumed", his infamous quote is revealing. Translated back fro RU/UA (I haven't seen it in EN) it says, "An independent Poland first of all, and then we'll see which one" [3]. Maybe "in what borders" is a more exact translation, but the meaning is here. It is somewhat less quoted than his famous "Without independent Urkaine there is no indpependent Poland".
The view of modern Ukrainian historiography (see sources I added to the article) is that Pilsudski made an allialnce with the by-Dnieper Ukrainians, represented by Petlyura, first of all to have a free hand in brutalizing the Western Ukraine. He held his troops from attacking the Soviet Russia when Bolsheviks were in their hardest times, because he had reasons to believe that if White movement wins, it would be worse for Poland. He may have initially wanted only the Western UA for the PL proper, and the rest in some federated PL dominated state. As Eugene pointed out, we just don't know how that would differ from RU dominated SU. The fact is that he conquered Kiev which was held by Poland not in 18th but in 17th century. As the Russian saying goes, the appetite kicks in while one eats. Similarly, Bolsheviks may have got to thinking of the "Soviet Poland" once they rided there in an unexpected success. So, the 17th century certainly applies to the time of Polish control of the land PL wanted to dominate (directly or via (con)federation and we have no clue how puppet the Kiev gov would have to be to be satisfactory). This above are just speculations, I admit. But we can do nothing else in "what if" situation. Poland's expanding to beyond 18th century is a fact on the ground.
In the source I added one can find an observation of one of participants of Rydz-Smigly "victorious parade of liberators" in Kiev. This observant saw this as a huge political mistake: "Ukrainian people who saw in their capital an allien general with a Polish army... didn't see that as a liberation but as a new variety of occupation...". -- Irpen 21:14, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
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Halibu
tt 00:18, August 30, 2005 (UTC)Any Polish claim upon Rus territory is automatically worthless. Today's Byelorussia and much of Ukraine along with European Russia composed Kievan Rus which was the first Russian state,lasting from 880 to 1240. The Mongols unleashed aggression upon the Rus lands while the Lithuanian barbarians conducted a ruthless policy of expansion into Rus lands. The merger of Lithuania and Poland resulted in the diminished sovereignty of the former. The Polish gentlemen proceeded to mericlessly exploit the Rus serfs, provoking insurrection by the hero Khmelnitsky. Russia proceeded to liberate Rus territory after 1634. In the so-called "Polish Partitions", Russia had in fact taken back land which had been stolen by the Lithuanians 400 years earlier. Byelorussia and the right bank of Ukraine were freed from the Polish-Lithuanian yoke.
I carefully reread all the arguing above (it was not easy, had to use history+compare time after time since it got chronologically/spatially split widely) and I figure we should just conclude since no new points are being brought up for a while. I would still like to see the entire context of Davies' conclusion but, generally, we have enough sources to say that the outcome was a "Minor Polish victory". I will change the article as such. Please add a footnote, as Piotrus suggested (I just don't know how to do it), since this is not universally agreed outcome.
On the second issue (lost in the 18th or 17th-18th century) I still disagree with current situation of 18th century only being mentioned. In the course of the war Poland did conquer Kiev (it's 17th century possession) and we cannot say how would the history turn further should the Poles managed to stay or install Petlyura there. We know what Pisludski said and even his own statements changed from one occasion to another. We have no way to know how overwhelming the Polish domination in Federation would be. Polish rule in Volhynia was pretty harsh. This is somewhat different, since PL viewed this as part of Poland and not federation but still indicative. Anyway, this is all hypothetical.
Conquest of Kiev and a pompous victorious parade of Rydz-Smigly is a real fact on the ground. As a compromise between "lost in the end of the 18th century" and "lost control of in the 17th and 18th centuries", I will use "lost in the end of the 18th century or earlier". I would like to thank everyone for the discussion that was interesting so far and will continue, no doubt. Regards, -- Irpen 04:54, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Soviet Ukraine was a place of a genocide. I doubt very much that even the worst Polish government were able to do the same. Ukrainian leader would have been a partner for Poland. Ukrainians were divided and lost millions citizens 1930-1950. Xx236 13:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to draw the attention of the editors who participated in the discussion above to Kiev Offensive and Battle of Wolodarka articles. They are even more problematic and we need more of reasonable editors to discuss it over to make discussions at talk productive. I left my opinions there already. Thank you. -- Irpen 17:58, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I doubt that Polish name of an Ukrainian place was correct in an English text. Xx236 14:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
There is a problem with all general maps (region of Upper Silesia). It state Katowice in 1919 while it should be KATTOWITZ. Katowice and part of Upper Silesia became part of Poland as SILESIAN AUTHONOMY in 1922!!!
There is a problem with the map of August - Wilno was a part of Lithuania after passing it by Soviets in July (12.) this map doesn't include it.
But is should be at least indicated that that area wa rather under Lithuanian than Polish control (the political border is stiil included in the map but - according to status quo - it is wrong). I know that nowadays most of 1919-1922 maps prefer to "give" Wilno to Poland but it is not fully correct. So please - at least somehow mention that theoretically Wilno was a part of Lithuania in August 1920.
OK, I see UR point but I still claim that the control of that area was more "Lithuanian" then "Polish". At that time of course. I understand that "Lithuanian" in that case means rather "Soviet" but it is still not Polish. Depending only on International Law isn't a good idea - then e.g. the day the war began should be different etc. I feel that this problem is too complicated to show it using single map ...
Recently Irpen significantly reworded one of the parts of this article. Instead of adding {{ dubious}} or {{ fact}} tags all over the text, I decided to paste it here for discussion:
---
Halibu tt 04:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I simply haven't replied yet. Unlike you, my opponents here gave some reasonable objections and I am writing an equally elaborate response and considering what to take into account. While you mostly just scream, other people do discuss things. -- Irpen 22:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC) other people do discuss things. Or delete other people's posts. -- Molobo 22:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a nutjob commie!
The communists LOST and lost badly! ( Romanyankee78 20:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC))
In Bruce Lincoln's "Red Victory: A History of Russian Civil War",(already cited in the article) in the conclusion of the relevant chapter "Give Us Warsaw!" he first quotes Pilsudski praising Polish troops at the end of the war for having successfully defended an independent Poland and contrasts this with a quote from Lenin who says "We have won ... Anyone who examines the map will see that we have won, that we have emerged from this war with more territory then when we have started." He then goes on to offer his own opinion of the outcome: “In fact both sides could claim victory in the armistice of October 1920 and the peace (at Riga) in March”. Judging who won by territorial changes is also not conclusive. For one, it depends on when one believes the war started (Lincoln argues it was at Bereza Kartuska in Feb 1919, 15 months prior to the Kiev offensive, as it’s in the article now). Also the final border was 100 miles east of the Curzon line established by the allies but 50 miles west of the boundary proposed by the Soviets during failed peace talks in April. The peace also allowed the Bolsheviks to focus on whoopin’ Wrangel, but then again, I don’t think Pilsudski ever wanted Wrangel to win. Something like "disputed Polish victory" or "both sides claimed victory" while sort of ugly verbally is probably most accurate. And I'm pretty damn far from being a commie, and hopefuly a nutjob as well. radek 07:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
If you deny that this was anything but a POLISH VICTORY then you must be a nutjob! The treaty favored them and that it was THEY who were forced to come to terms with poland! Just citing some obscure book is not good enough. Lenin saying they "gained more land" is meaningless. It is a mute point. the poles ran the soviets back to russia, then got a favorable peace. It says from a book I have "The treaty of Riga granted Poland much of what Pilsudski had orignally envisioned for his nation" 100 Decisive Battles. It seems to me there are a lot of people in denial for the commies here and on other boards in which they lost Romanyankee ( 68.227.211.175 01:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
You bet. the soviets sued for peace. In the civil war the south sued for peace and then got a favorable outcome, but it is common sense that the north won. Same thing here. Romanyankee( 24.75.194.50 13:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
Total enough RomanYankee( 24.75.194.50 16:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
Hi all. I noticed an anon adding some fancy info here. At first I thought it's a vandalism, but even if it is - there is a grain of truth in it. Indeed the Bolshevik weapons supply was low and indeed there were lots of Polish Americans (as well as some 200 Americans) serving with the Polish Army. However, is the 20,000 figure reliable? Seems way too much... Halibu tt 21:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I reverted anon contribs (below). Source is needed before they are moved back to the article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, it seems as if Wilno/Vilnius was neither Polish onr Lithuanian but that the majority of inhabitants at this time were Jews and Belarussians. One of the many ironies of conflicts in inter-war Europe.
Which means the USA had a hand in beating the pinko's Romanyankee( 24.75.194.50 16:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
Well, that they had a hand in defeating the pinko's. And it is this source or did you read the article? Romanyankee ( 68.227.211.175 10:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC))
The "20,000 Americans" figure is usually the one given for TOTAL American troops involved in the Russian Civil War (not counting volunteers such as Kosciuszko Legion). But most of these were in Vladivostok and some under British command in North Russia. Few, if any of these were anywhere near this conflict. radek 21:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Nope, There were not 20k americans there. 5k in north russian and another 5k in vladivostok. The air legion and probably a good number of polish-americans fought here. There were token forces in the civil war and rarely fought the soviets. They were they to protect the ports and reestablish the eastern front. If anything they fought more often in this conflict
yankeeroman( 24.75.194.50 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC))
The information under the heading “End of the war” is questionable. Apparently, some negotiations were going on as early as March. The talks in Riga started in the middle of September. That is when the Soviet offers were announced. Obviously, they were not inspired by the October advances of the Polish army. Would someone care to re-write the paragraph? -- EugeneK 03:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The earliest Soviet offer, according to the Russian-language source that I found in this page (Mikhail Mel'tiuhov; hard-to-read, but full of references)is, in fact, dated February 1919. Many other offers and counter-offers are discussed in the same source, but this is not the point. There are no doubts that the talks in Riga were inspired by the “Miracle”. However, the article claims that the Soviets asked for negotiations after the October (!) successes of the Polish army. This could not be true, since the talks started in September. -- EugeneK 04:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In Riga in September the Soviets made two offers: on September 21st and 28th. Poles made a counteroffer on the 2nd of October. On the 5th the Soviets offered amendments to the Polish offer. Poland accepted. The armistice between Poland on one side and Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Russia on the other was signed on the 12th and went into effect on the 18th of October. From Mel'tiuhov. -- EugeneK 06:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
With the article to be main paged in a few days, I finally went to the library to fulfiil Irpen's request about checking Davies PSW book. To my considerable suprise I found that University of Pittsburgh Hillam Library has more then two shelves stacked with books related to the PSW, Polish and English (and Russian, but I can't even read their titles :( ). All of them are withing few meters of a Int-comp workstation, and the library is 25 minutes from my place :) Anyway, here is a list of publications that I can easily access (forgive me for the lack of Polish letters):
The above list is only of publications that seemed to me directly related to the PSW. I skipped over publications about the Polish-Ukrainian War, aspects of Second Polish Republic and virtually anything that didn't have a title clealry indicating its connection to the PSW. You can browse the library catalogu here. If like me to check any of these publication, let me know!-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
We have so many nice PD paintings, why are we using this black and white phote with nothing much on it? Which other picture would you like to see used instead?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the Wolodarka image then? I wonder whether this "battle" exists as a separate significant event of the war outside of the Wikipedia coverage. BTW, what is its outcome per WERS? -- Irpen 03:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I am suggesting that that whatever skirmish took place there doesn't qualify to call it a "battle" similarly to not having separate articles for every house of Stalingrad. Such articles could exist, but they should not be called "battles" and listed in campaignboxes where they create clutter. I've seen many books on this war (read fully only one unfortunately) and didn't find Volodarka in any of them at all. I am not saying the references there lie. I simply question the interpetation and the presentation of these events in Wikipedia. And the outcome, when Wikipedians derive it on their own. As for the "occupation" term, it is crystal clear that by the end of PUW, the land was occupied by Poland and at the height of Kiev offensive, half of Ukraine was occupied as well. I took your objection as beeing specifically to using the word in the lead. I could see that and accepted, but since you opposed to using less strong word in other articles, the factual occupation belongs back to where it was as well. -- Irpen 03:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, by the end of the PUW, there was clearly one occupying side in Western UA. At the height of the Kiev Offensive, there was also one occupying side all the way to the Dnieper.
I accepted the removal of what you perceive as a strong word from the lead and I went ahead and did a similar change in two other articles. Nowhere the clarity was affected and nowhere it implied any whitewashing. However, I was reverted by you three times. Instead of forcing you into keeping the word there by restoring it (you wouldn't be allowed to revert for the forth time), I choose to restore the consistency and left the other articles your way. The brevity of the style of the lead is important, I agree. It's not my approach to take on an article, alter the lead POVing it and leave. You can see that I edited many places in the article in accordance with sources and other articles we have. Maybe the lead needs rewriting. I don't mind that. However, when we say that Pilsudsky "envisioned" smth, we should clearly say what it was. The lead did describe his "visions" and I simply added what's highly relevant. You then forced Lenin's "vision" "for the balance". I did not interfere.
It wasn't me who insisted on the Pilsudski's vision there at the first place. I simply brought it in agreement with reality. Same applies to the Polish position towards Ukrainian lands it forced under its control. The right term should be used when we speak about if at all. If strong terms are not right for the intros, fine with me and please don't revert me in other articles. If, however, you do use the strong term in intros, please don't insist on their selective usage. If you insist on "balancing" it with the Soviet position in the lead, fine with me as well. Rewrite it. More later, -- Irpen 04:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Moving back to the pic issue, how about the map I moved to the infobox? A neutral and more informative map of the conflict is much more informative to the reader than the painting whose artistic value as well as neutrality may or may not be debated. -- Irpen 06:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree but if you feel so strong, so be it. That's the least important issue of the article. -- Irpen 06:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I did not like the way you single-handedly shuffled the images in the article and I've restored the previous layout. Please try to discuss it first and let's do it one-by-one. Particularly the map you put into the infobox made not much sense, as it does not illustrate the war. -- Lysy talk 07:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not a map of Poland, this is the map that shows the war theatre and the final post-war borders set only due to the war outcome. The painting's being an alegoric illustartion of the war is a POV. Surrendering Kremlin to Pozharsky is even more allegoric. You reverted me there though. This image is of poor quality, debatable artistic value, biased towards one side and heavily POV. It's fine for the article but not the infobox where the image should be neutral towards all sides of the conflict. -- Irpen 21:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Raul spoke about pics vs maps only as far as the mainpage image is conserned and not about the infobox where he didn't interfere. -- Irpen 22:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The language in this featured article is chock-a-block with grammar, and other, infelicites. An extensive phrasing edit is really needed. ww 05:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The text presented on the Wiki page today is biased. It ignores Soviet imperialism, see Soviet declarations of bringing freedom to Western workers. It ignores the existence of the Ukrainian nation (unfortunately too weak to create a state at that time). I don't know if it is Soviet propaganda or rather political corectness and ignorance - two fight so they are probably equally guilty.
If the Poles didn't annex the land East to the Curzon line, at least one million people would have died 1921-1938 during collectivization, Great Terror and famine. Xx236 06:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The terrible Dmowski was responsible for the death of maybe 10 Jews till the war and maybe thousands during the war (the results of his ideology after his death). The Soviet Union was responsible for Holodomor, during which millions died. If you want to criticize nationalists, why don't you mention uk:Донцов Дмитро Іванович, who might have influenced UPA (more than 50 000 civilian victims, Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish). The Ukrainian culture allegedly "suffocated", e.g. more Ukrianian journals existed in Polish Lwów than in Soviet Lviv 1985 (my source is "Dzvin" of that time). Xx236 08:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I still cannot understand how one can actually compare the Soviet MANSLAUGHTER of Ukrainians with Polish attempts to suppress Ukrainian culture WITHOUT killing Ukrainians and arrive at the opinion that the Soviet Russian regime was far better because it helped Ukrainians develop their culture! To me human rights and a democratic/semi-democratic government is much better than the totalitarian, nazi-like Soviet government of the 20's. Yet perhaps I will be considered biased by some post-Stalinists and other radical left-wingers. To me it is much better for a person to be alive and persecuted for speaking his own language than to have freedom of using it and be murdered by an oppressive government. I DO NOT support radical nationalism, I am just trying to be unbiased in my approach.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.129.101 ( talk • contribs)
Irpen, the result of the Soviet-Polish war was the death of hundreds thousands people who stayed on the wrong side of the border, partially because of the Endeks games in Riga. Xx236 14:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted a claim that Petliura was the leader of a party that won elections in 1917. If I understand it correctly, the referenced source actually claims that the largest party in the elected Ukrainian legislature (which was supposed to represent Ukraine at an All-Russian congress) was Ukrainian SR (“socialist revolutionaries”): 71 out of 120 seats; while Ukrainian social democrats had only 2 out of 120 seats. Petliura was a Ukrainian social democrat (Labor or “worker’s” Party), not an SR. So, it is unlikely that his party gained a majority at that stage. Another possible parliament-type body was Central Rada, which was not really elected. It evolved over time and was composed of representatives of various social, political and ethnic groups, including Ukrainians leaving outside of Ukraian. Even for Central Rada, there are no indications of Petliura’s party (if he had been a leader of any party at this time) holding a majority. As many other sources on Petliura indicate, he came to power in a coup after overthrowing a pro-German government. Could the author of the claim about Petliura’s electoral successes substantiate the claim or remove it altogether? -- EugeneK 20:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears this article has grown beyond a reasonable length. Please, instead of trying to add various details to make one or the other side look worse or better, try to consider what should be cut from the article, or spun off to its own article. The section on "Controversies" looks like a great candidate for that.
Also, I invite Irpen to stop indulging in his obsession about Kiev bridges. In war infrastructure is destroyed, please try to accept this. If those bridges had remained standing, they would surely have been blown up by the Soviets in 1941. Still, if you really care so much about bridges, maybe you should add a note about retreating Russians blowing up the Warsaw bridges to the First World War article (or at least Eastern Front (World War I) article). Balcer 07:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Equavalence of the Soviet State and the Second Polish Republic is not in the picture. However, to leave the Red violations in and completely remove any mention of the similar Polish actions is not NPOV. And, yes, we need an article about treatment of minorities in the interwar Poland and others. No one equates it to Red Terror but not only the treatment of minorities article doesn't exist but Anti-Semitism in Poland was blanked into a redirect, for instance, and my adding info to the "Polish contribution to the WW2" article was blanked not even by Molobo, but by Piotrus. We are facing the "Poland can do no wrong" sentiment through most of Wikipedia since there are not enough non-Polish editors with sufficient interest to contribute to 20s century Poland controvercies, while there are plenty to dump all the evils on Russia, largely due to a Cold war mentality or the fervent Russophobia of some editors (definetely a minority, but rather a vocal one).
As far as the bridges go, also note that the bridges withstood the events of the city changing hands between Reds and Whites (several times), Germans and Ukrainian States (several of them) and no one dared to blow them. I read much material of the mastepiece chain bridge and, as you perhaps know, to destroy the chain bridge is a piece of cake. Enough is to damage one chain link and the bridge falls, and no one destroyed that chain link until the Poles did. It is an amazing fact that the bridges withstood the great war, the civil war, the intra-Ukrainian wars and they were still there. Perhaps, people who considered this land theres (reds, whites and Ukrainians alike) didn't dare but of course for Poles this was an allien territory and the immediate benefit outweighed everything else.
Overall, this article's exposure at the mainpage showed that there is something terribly wrong with FAing. I don't know when it passed the FA scrutiny, perhaps it was a different version or perhaps too few people east of Poland saw the nomination. Note how many significant NPOVing changes I made during the very day of its mainpage exposure and Piotrus accepted them all, which means how far the article was from being ready for the mainpage (and also that Piotrus is a reasonable and good faith editor, rather than Polish POV crusader, but that's a side note). This article needs to be brought to normalcy as it keeps the precious FA label and I hope that the Polish September Campaign is not getting to the mainpage any time soon because it is even more POV and, yes, carries a FA label too. -- Irpen 08:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I completly agree with Balcer that this section needs to go because 1) it is too detailed and 2) it is prone to controversy and was not accepted by the FAC process. I am not sure if we should move it to the Aftermath of the Polish-Soviet War or to a separate article of its own (I am afraid the second version may result in some VfD fan/NPOV extremist nominating it for deletion). I'd also like to point out that we have a very similar precedent (moving a controversial section to a subarticle), both with Treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants and with Soviet partisans in Poland, both splits initatied by you, Irpen (so I am sure you'll see the merit of this proposal). On this note I have also to agree with Balcer to some extent on other points he raises, i.e. that Kiev bridges (while a great article I apploud you for, Irpen) is not that relevant here (but can be mentioned in a subarticle), and that you seem to be loosing cool recently with some revert situations we have seen in Poland-Russia related articles (PMW, PSC, KO, HoPs, SPiP...). As I consider you usually a reasonable and valuable contributor, I'd really like to remind you about the existence of talk pages and that if one is reverted, it is good to raise the issue on talk page and see what community has to say about it. We are all aware of our POVs: I and Balcer, for example, will (to some extent) inevitably and often unconciously represent the Polish POV, while you Irpen are surely aware that you are affected by Russian POV. We both should not let our relations deteriorate to the level of a revert war. As you note yourself, this article has been accepted by community as a FA-class NPOVed article (you can see the exact version following the link from FA template above). If you feel that it has changed too much from the time it was FACed and is no longer NPOVed, then we have a process exactly for that: Wikipedia:Featured article review-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I feel like attacked by a pack here. But, fine, the article is more important. Balcer, you charge that my edits were accepted because others were "tired" of me rather than that they were reasobanble. Have you actually checked the history on what changes you were talking about? Because Piotrus wrote a following edit summary commenting on my changes: "minor changes, I think your other edits are ok" You say that "you had enough". So did I. Especially, of one sided articles reflected the Polonopholic positions that spread even from Polish topics to purely Ukrainian and Russian topics like Smolensk getting the Polish name to the intro, Polonizing Victory Day and even Russo-Japanese War, Catherine the Great, Suvorov and even Tyutchev and Ded Moroz, Ukrainian Kiev, Kaniv, Chernihiv and I can keep counting if you need the list expanded. Have it ever occured to you that that's others who may be tired of this? I don't remember ever a Russian name in the first like of the Warsaw article for instance.
Piotrus, you want this section spun off? Fine, start a separate article, I don't mind that if a passing mention is left in here. Note that (read my prev entry) I only added one short sentence about the bridges to which you pasted the whole paragraph fom Kiev Offensive, followed by Balcer's deletion of bridges (he left your addition intact though), followed by my accepting keeping this out and removing the piece you added, followed by me seeing myself reverted by Halibutt so that only red atrocities remained in the article. Only then I added more. I feel like becoming a target of attacks and seeing myself reverted for an honest attempt to only start bringing this article to normalcy. I felt tempted not to waste time instead and POV-tag the article, explain the problems at talk leave it to you to fix. WOuld it have been a better solution. I hope this can be resolved peacefully and to the article's benefit and that Balcer's words were caused by overexcitement but I feel strongly that this tradition of biased articles needs to start being addressed. -- Irpen 18:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see anything biased in the article. I however see a lot of original research on your part, wrong translation of Polish words, and using Soviet sources as factual statements. I personally believe that we should have a Wiki rule against using Soviet sources as anything else then sources on themselfs since they are propaganda pieces of totalitarian regime similiar to the Nazi one. I hope that such idea will gain support and be implemented. I of course will restore neutrality to the article, seeing how much Irpen's contributions seem to be loaded with emotional content and the heavy usage of Soviet and nationalist sources. -- Molobo 18:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, please don't use the word "consensus" to describe what this really is - the agreement among several Polish editors on certain points of the article. The truth is that most non-Polish, non-Russian and non-Ukrainian wikipedians (unfortunately we almost totally miss the Belarusians in the project) don't give a damn about the PSW to make a single factual edit. I trully appreciate the native speakers copyediting myself (and my Polish, Russian, Ukrainian colleagues) but face that they bring almost no material to these topics. I don't blame them for that, but this is the starting point. So, first of all, what we have is the Polish editors agreeing and the non-Polish editors disagreeing. The former is not surprising and Elonka spoke of that lately at the Polish board. I am not surprised about such things anymore ever since, what seemed to me an open and shut, VfD case, the voting on the deletion of the Polish Black Book receiving zero (!) delete votes from Polish Wikipedians. Not only Halibutt and Witkacy, but even Balcer and yourself didn't vote delete. So, let's call this article for what it was, the Polish-Russian-Ukrainian article based entirely on the Polish POV and, unsurprisingly, Polish editors call this "a consensus" (please no offence, I believe that originally it was written in good faith, it's just that Polish historiography, as any other national historiographies, tends to be biased). You may want to ask, why then non-Poles who care (Russians and Ukrainians) didn't do much for the article to this day. Perhaps part of the answer is here. Read the talk page of this knowledgeable editor who simply gives up. So, please no more of this consensus vs Irpen stuff. You said yourself that you agreed to most of my changes and that was only when the war crimes issue popped up, we got to this stage of bad faith accusations.
That brings us to the points brought up by Balcer. This is all good what he says that taking some abstract "balance" to an absolute could be improper. But did Balcer actually check the article history before assigning the faults in "overbalancing"? Let me remind that it wasn't me who started "balancing". I added a single sentence about bridges destruction. As I said, as a born Kievan who knows and loves his city, I find this notable. Whoever been to Kiev knows how wide the Dnieper is there and how the bridges are both crucial and difficult to build. Whoever read anything about the history of the issue (and DDima and myself elaborated much on that in the Bridges of Kiev article) can't not know what an immense value, both day-to-day and symbolical, was attached to the masterpiece chain Nicholas bridge, the pride of the city. Perhaps telling is that no one dared to destroy the bridges of many of the powers that took and left Kiev at the time ( Reds, Greens, Whites, any of the yellow-and-blue ones or even Germans) despite everyone had their own military needs. Perhaps, they all, but the WWI Germans, considered this territory and its assets as their territory and their assets and, also, didn't want to alienate the Kievans, unless absolutely necessary. This makes them all certainly different from the Polish troops' attitude who invaded without any doubt that this is not their land (Germans don't really count since their withdrawal was orderly and they knew they would not be attacked) and, hence, the Poles didn't really care enough to not destroy the bridges.
So, I saw this notable, but as I said, I felt not too strong about it if it were removed. It was not me but Piotrus, who after my one sentence mention of bridges pasted the whole paragraph about the Red's atrocities from the Kiev Offensive article with the summary "Counterbalance with info from BB" ( The Black Book of Communism). So, who is that you accused "obsessed with balancing"?
No one but myself sees the bridges destruction important? Fine, we keep it in Kiev Offensive and Kiev bridges for now. Entire section needs gone? Also fine, provided it is spun off to a separate or a different article rather than simply blanked. Although, Piotrus' analogy about spinning off in other articles doesn't strictly apply. In Soviet partisans, the extra section was simply redundant since from the Soviet partisan perspective, the "...in PL" topics are covered in respective sections of other Soviet republics. Halibutt's alternative view that considers the SP in PL as a separate issue is a legitimate angle, though for a separate article. Also, as for H of PL, again, the extra sections "Treatment by the occupiers..." written (unsurprisingly by the same editor) also disrupted the article's text flow and the chronological flow of events. While a legitimate topic in itself, in such article as History of PL the material should be covered in the section that cover the specific period of time. OTOH, in the War article, treatment of the POW's seems relevant if not overly detailed. But I am open to compromises. If others want to see an entire "controversies" section spun off, go ahead. Just think for the best title for this text.
Also, should I have been out for revert warring (which I never am), why would I scrupulously edited the article following others' corrections to my edits? While some of mine edits were reverted by some here, I don't think I ever reverted, except some very few obvious cases. Take the infobox picture case. I was totally amazed that Piotrus preferred the propaganda painting by Kossak (who is the one pictured in the upper left corner, btw?) to the neutral map with the borders that this war brought about. I moved the image down and tidied up the entire layout only to be reverted on the spot by I don't remember who was telling me that Kossak's image allegorically illustrates the article (!). Why not use this image then??? And, note, that the image no less allegorical was for some reason not liked by the same editors in the other article's infobox.
Instead of calling the situation I am trying to address a "consensus", just think for a minute that I didn't post a note at the Russian and Ukrainian portals that would have immediately proven that the consensus here is a joke. I didn't want a revert war but the article's improvement. Instead, I get an assault by the Cabal.
Finally, to Piotrus' point about usability of sources, as an occasional reader of Wprost or Gazeta Wyborcza and a regular reader of Zerkalo Nedeli I seriously mind comparing the most respectable Weekly in Ukraine with the tabloid that publishes stuff like this or this. ZN has an English version that I invite Piotrus to check out before even comparing it with Marek Krol's tabloid. The articles for the weekly history section of Zerkalo are written by noted scholars and I am using exclusively those articles rather than speculations from the articles devoted to the modern politics. -- Irpen 01:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, I am not holding anyone's votes against anyone. We all made mistakes in the past, myself included. I simply wanted to point out that 3-4 Wikiepdians of similar backgrounds all agreeing on something is not a consensus, especially if the topic is controversial, like the war between the country of those Wikipedians and some other country.
You specifically accused me in overbalancing and only later added a note about others.
As to the bridges, fine, as I said. If this section goes, they go with it. If they just get removed, no big deal either. I still stand by my reasons why this section is a different case for deciding on spinning off that examples brought by Piotus (see above). But again, want to spin it off, go for it. Just don't blank it into an empty space.
You don't need to reply to my as you call "long essay". Suffice is that you read my entry and see my points. Regards, -- Irpen 04:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Id like to point out that Wikipedia isnt a place for grinding one's own axe. The point isnt to take a cherry-picked quote and present it as a holy fact, but to take a pool of quotations and views and carefully extract the NPOV. The disputed paragraph (Kiev offensive) is scandalously one-sided, with a narration that even the Great Soviet Encyclopedia wouldnt be abashed of. NPOV tag goes up until Ghirla's and Irpen's hogging isnt dealt with. Reichenbach 20:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't support sockpuppetry, be it by Russian, Polish or Martian editors. Considering that Reichenbach ( talk · contribs), who registered only today, seems quite familiar not only with wikipedia syntax and Irpen's edits to this article, but also with Ghirla's edits (and he has not been editing this article for quite some time), I feel very strongly that some more experienced wiki editor is engaging in Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry. Please stop this behaviour and use your real account, whoever you are. Such behaviour is never helpful, no matter what side and POV do you represent/fight.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Reichenbach, you cannot alter the original quotes. This is effectively putting the words in the scolar's mouth. The articles are written by us. The books we refer to are written by others and we cannot change a word in them. -- Irpen 23:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Please understand that what's questioned is not that the public opinion was pro-Soviet but it was so specifically due to a left-wing propaganda rather than other reasons. As such, the paper would prove nothing. There were certainly pro-Soviet publications in the West where many people at the time were not exactly happy with their conditions and blamed the rich and lack of social justice for that. To prove such claim you need a scholar's opinion that the pro-Soviet views where propaganda-caused rather than that they simply existed.
Also, your restoration of "totalitarian Soviet Russia" as a single alternative to the Polish-dominated mega-state is nothing but an unreferenced speculation.
Finally, the quotation marks near "alliance" were there for a reason. Calling the agreement between Pilsudski, who had an immense popularity among his people and a real army behind him, with Peltura, who was on the run with the nominal force, an ALLIANCE is a joke. Remember that Petlura came to power through a coup overthrowing another puppet gov (pro-German one) that also came to power through a coup. By this token you can call the stuff Osobka-Morawski signed with Stalin an "alliance" as well. -- Irpen 02:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Could you point out where I used the word ALLIANCE with respect to Soviet UA/Soviet RU mutual standing? I don't think I did. Pre-USSR Soviet UA was a nominal state with certain signs of statehood and insignificant legitimacy claims (derived from a small Bolshevik faction to Rada). While the original UPR was a real state to a degree a representative of its people too, the Petlura's one governemnt claim to represent it was questionable. Anyway, I didn't use an alliance for UkrSSR so the point is moot. -- Irpen 16:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, I never said that "most Ukrainians suported the reds". I said that many Ukrainians fought the Poles (in the Red ranks) which is true. As for Soviet communism being totalitarian, true but irrelevant to this article. The T. word is an anachronism if applied to that time's events. This is similar to talking about human rights concept or the Genocide concept in the context of the biblical times.
Besides, the Soviet oppression truly hit Ukraine in the 30s. "Suffered from Stalin's rule more than any other" quote may also be true but again, applied only to a much later time (1930s). In twenties, the Soviet policies were not at all anti-Ukrainian, to the contrary (read Ukrainization article I referenced very well) while the Treatment of minorities in Second Polish Republic was quite the opposite of examplary and yet remains to be written. It is the 1920s events that are for this article's immediate consern. Who can ever tell what happens in 10-15 years? This article speaks a lot on what Pilsudski "envisioned" but I doubt even he knew what would happen to Ukraine in 1930s. Neither he cared much, or at all, about Ukrainians as long as Poland was safe and Ukrainians, those barbarians, there didn't cause it any trouble by not wanting to become Poles or wanting at least an autonomy within Poland, what a blasphameous thought. -- Irpen 05:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
When we get the numbers, we will add them. For now we know that Ukrainians that fought the Poles were indeed many (see Abbott's ref) while Ukrainians with Petlura were few and we also don't know how many of the Petlurovites were of Polish ethnicity to begin with. And an empty apology is really just a word. It's action that count, including crashin of WUPR, Polonization closure of Orthodox churces and other unfavorable treatment of ethnic minorities in Second Polish Republic is what counts. As for your trying to suppress using Zerkalo Nedeli, see above. -- Irpen 18:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there an article about ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union? Do you contribute there Irpen?
Since 1945 thousands texts were printed in Communist Poland about mistreatment of ethnic minorities in pre-war Poland. Every child had to learn about it. Irpen believs he has discovered something new. Professor Tomaszewski alone has published at least 10 books on the subject. Do you know something what Tomaszewski doesn't?
Why don't you mention the context of the Polish "crimes" - Kurapaty, Holodomor, Belarussian and Ukrainian Soviet-sponsored terrorism? Xx236 07:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I adressed Irpen. See his contributions in the "Polish minority..." in History. Xx236 13:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
While this article is getting better (and longer...), the subarticles are in a poor shape. I'd suggest moving all items tagged with fact, dubious, etc. to subarticles so that this FA does not bloat to much and has no tags (which FAs should not have).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As I said earlier, fine by me even if the whole controverises section is spun off as long as there is a brief summary and a link from a main article even though I explained why this is different from precedents with History of Poland and Soviet partisans.
I object for now to removal of anything else until we settle with the article in general. It is still largely a Polonophile-POV. The work of bringing it to normalcy has just started (not even all Monachium-like things are yet corrected). Let's just work together constructively. -- Irpen 18:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why the fiction book, censored in the Soviet Union, is quoted, rather than Babel's original journal?
Why only Yakovlev's crimes are quoted? Because he switched to the Polish side? Even the "Konarmya" describes Bolshevik crimes. Xx236 13:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E2DA1E39F937A35755C0A963958260
Babel has described cruelties of both sides. If he is quoted (and "Konnarmya" isn't a source, it's fiction, you should confirm the story about Yakovlev from an another source), he should be quoted twice, both on the Bolshevik and Polish side. Meltyukhov books are't reviewed by Western historians. (Piotr has mentioned it before, I have just realized.) Xx236 08:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It's abusrd. I don't like to start a revert war.
Who claimed, he wanted to regain the control on formerly Russian land? In 1920? Western Ukraine wasn't a part of the Russian Empire, so what was the Red Army doing there?
Hello, is there anyone ???? Xx236 14:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not a case of "dubious". The beginning of the "featured" text contains absurd claims. Why shall I have respect for lies? I can eventually delete them, but I don't like revert war.
Xx236 08:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is bad. It isn't featured. Xx236 14:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, not only inline citations count. Look at the general citations. Besides, the degree in which they are used also matters. Russian citations are used for to support a specific claim or word, not for the whole article. Monachium could not have come either from English or from a Russian source or even from an editor who didn't have a specific intent to have it here, because unlike Volodarka "Battle" about which even Davies doesn't know, or "Wasylcowce", in case of Monachum there is no way our friendly co-editor would not know what English name one was supposed to use. And so on... -- Irpen 18:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a monograph about a particular conflict. Hardly it would ommit any significant battles. I don't deny the skirmish there took place and that it was immortalized by a propaganda painting. This yet doesn't qualify this event to be mentioned in the campaign box at the same level as Kiev offensive. Three books that I know about this war don't have a word "Volodarka". I think it's telling. -- Irpen 17:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"Lenin saw Poland as the bridge that the Red Army would have to cross in order to link up the Russian Revolution with the communist supporters in the German Revolution, and to assist other communist movements in Western Europe."
Either Lenin is biased or this article. Be integral and correct one of them. Xx236 08:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I saw this also - can you give a source as to Lenin's ambitions to conquer Europe, I thought he was plenty busy worrying about the Allied Expeditionary force and the White Russians. There may be memos etc about Lenin's plans but I seem to have never heard of them before.
"Политическое руководство второй Речи Посполитой (официальное наименование Польши в 1918-39 годах) сразу же приступило к занятию территорий, населенных этническими поляками." Nothing about "divisions". BTW - Western Silesia wasn't a part of Poland before the divisions. Xx236 09:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Was it "occupation" or rather cooperation with Petlura? Xx236 09:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that the Soviet "historiography" should influence the Wiki, the Nazi one doesn't. The story about Kiev bridges is too poetic for me. It should be mentioned how many bridges were destroyed and how seriously. Xx236 10:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Kiev doesn't mention "Polish occupation" and destruction of bridges. Poor Kiev people are unaware of Polish "terror". Xx236 11:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The main article is Kiev Offensive, why the same subjects are discussed here, if the article is too long? Xx236 11:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to consult the Ukrainian Wiki, Kiev is an Ukrainian city finally, rather than Irpenian. Xx236 11:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There should be a Poniatowski's Bridge article containing those informations.
I believe that one article should contain a broad description, Kiev Offensive or History of Kiev, the other ones short notes only. Xx236 11:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The victory parades in Brześć and other cities are unrelated to the issue here Irpen, and I see you continue to connect other articles, in what seems to be desire to pressure other editors to change articles regarding Soviet actions by editing Polish related articles in your own way, later promising changes if Soviets related articles are changed in favour of your POV. The Soviet victory parades(that took place in several cities btw, not only in Brześć) celebrating Nazi-Soviet alliance against Poland are featured in several materials regarding invasion of Poland by Soviets, they show quite well the circumstances of September 1939, Soviet-Nazi alliance and historic events. They are unrelated to this article and I see no reason to mention them here. -- Molobo 12:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 12:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"i" isn't standard English. Xx236 12:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the author of this text and I won't correct this Soviet propaganda. If you are an author, do your job correctly. Xx236 12:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Polish side claims something (who would believe them). The Soviets have proves (Fiction book) and accounts. Best wishes for all happy authors. Shall I correct everything myself and start a revert war? Xx236 12:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I have already written - "Konnarmya" is a fiction book, based on Babel's journal, so documentary value of the journal is bigger. Why "Konnarmya" is quoted rather than the journal? A fiction book can eventually indicate a problem (Vadim Yakovlev) but not be quoted here and in Vadim Yakovlevas an evidence. This way we have an evidence that Colonel Wołodyjowski was in reality exactly as described by Sienkiewicz - he wasn't.
"Both sides raised charges of other violations of the laws of war"
"The Polish side claimed" but "There is evidence" on the other side.
These are quotes from the article. Has anyone read the article recently?
"pogroms i" is still there. Xx236 12:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
"Konarmy" is a fiction book. I doubt anyone quotes "For Whom the Bell Tolls" as a "source" about the Spanish war. There can be a section/article "The war in books/films" for such quotations. "Konarmy" has been censored. Xx236 12:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus a "Russian web-site" is actually a pro-White movement one and the article there is actually positive towards Bulak-B, that's where the ref about public executions come from. The claim about him throwing Bolshevik's heads is from the diary of BB's comrade in arms, another Polish officer. Also, clearly shown in the article. Claim about the Poles shelling Borisov is sourced to where it comes from, Russian diplomatic note. So, where something is sourced only to the claims made by the Russians, the article clearly says so. Now, to the claims about Russian atrocities. The Berdychiv issue, was first brought up in the protest of the Polish Red Cross addressed towards the International Red Cross. I will change the "Polish side" to "Polish Red Cross". I have no idea about the origin of the Black Book claims as I wrote above. That its authors have been criticized by an academic community and praised by the Western Press is all I know about this "academic" publication. I suggest you dig out how exactly the claim about Budyony's atrocities is framed there and reformulate this, if you want. Note, I didn't add "According to a higly controvercial Black Book..." before your claim. When we talk about the Trotsky's claim, we note that it was false. When we talk about the bridges, it is not doubted by anyone. If we end up not spinning this off, bridges may go. If we end up spinning off the section, bridges may stay. I have no strong objections against spinning off even though I explained how this here is different from the Partisans and history of PL precedents, where the info was simply redundant.
On a side note, I did some rereading on the diplomatic games, but this would be the subject of a separate discussion of the "Diplomatic Front, Part 2: The political games" section. Later, -_ Irpen 18:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
"Black Book" quotes sources. Are the sources unreliable? Which ones? Irpen, you have a bolshevik agenda, with more than 20 million victims, censorship, false documents, and you accuse academic works of being biased. Xx236 12:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, this criticism is about the Konarmiya fiction book, not the diary, which is a documentary. There are plenty of reviews of the diary available online and the diary itself is on google books. Anyone can check. I think it documents the crimes of both sides and is an important source for the topic. I reread it lately (it isn't too long) and recommend anyone with time and access to do the same -- Irpen 19:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The line "...victories over the white anticommunist forces and their western allies". There was no victory over their "western allies", just the whites. The russians fought very rarely against the small allied forces and usually lost. There was no victory against the allies since they weren't there to fight them at all. Just to watch over territory and reignite the eastern front. Please get that straight as this is not the only article thats stats this. RomanYankee( 68.227.211.175 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC))
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.Take a look at the following fragment:
Piłsudski, who specifically argued that "There can be no independent Poland without an independent Ukraine", really meant Ukraine being split from Russia rather than had any real concern for the fate of the Ukrainians. He did not hesitate to use military force to expand the Polish borders to Galicia and Volhynia, crushing a Ukrainian attempt at self-determination in the disputed territories east of the Western Bug river, which contained a significant Polish minority, mainly in cities like Lwów (Lviv)...
Instead of taking a pool of sources and extracting an NPOV balance, we have arguable ones presenting a one-sided interpretation of events, going insofar as to put words in Pilsudski's mouth, presented as divine truth. Wikipedia isnt about plagiarizing selective authors' quotes to suit certain POVs, but writing a collaborative encyclopedia backed (not copied) by a broad spectrum of sources. There are multitudes of sources interpreting the disputed facts differently, does that mean that I get to purge the current ones and replace them with my own nitpicked quotes proving the contrary?
Another possible interpretation to illustrate my point is: "Pilsudski foresaw the dangers posed to the Ukrainians by the Soviets, exemplified in such events as the Holodomor" or, God forbid, something neutral and less charged like "following the Polish-Ukrainian War". This issue needs some straightening out and balancing if the article is to maintain featured status. Reichenbach 16:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Repercussions of this continue (to a diminishing extent) to affect relations between the two countries."
What about Lithuanian participation in Ponary masscre of ethnic Poles and expulsion of Poles after the war? Xx236 12:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several citation requests in main body. If you can help and provide the relevant references, please do so, this is a FAC-level article and we should address such issues as a priority.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As Piotrus wrote in his edit summary, it seemed to him, as well as to myself, that the fact that Miedzymorze was supposed to be Polish-led seemed to him obvious. So it was to me. Nevertheless, Halibutt, Lysy and anon either just deleted that and tried to replace Polish-led by "democratic" or tried to add the word making it "Polish-led and democratic". While I had to add four refs to support an obvious statement about the Polish domination, the ref added in support of democratic contradicts other refs that defy trhe "democraticness" of Pilsudski. As Billington said in the ref now in the article, Pilsudski affinity to dictatorship betrayed any notion of democracy (see article for the full quote). So, the "democracy" here is not agreeable within refs and, also, clearly defied by history as we all know that Pilsudski did not hesitate to stage a coup against the democratically elected government as well as to rig the election and throw his opponents in jails (see Tadeusz Jordan-Rozwadowski, Polish legislative election, 1930 and May Coup for Pilsudski's committment to democracy). -- Irpen 04:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, setting aside the fact that as you yourself admit you are a lone voice against a consensus of other editors, I provide a good reference about a democratic nature of Miedzymorze federation. Speculating that it would not be so on the basis on Piłsudski's latter actions, while interesting, is just your own counter-factual speculation, Irpen, but let me counter this speculation with another: people change, and Piłsudski was much more pro-democracy in 1919-20 then five years later. As Halibutt points out, his actions during the May Coup are actions of a quite different, changed man, in a quite different speculation. Setting this aside, please find an academic reference that shows Miedzymorze would not be democratic, or stop removing the current referenced citation to it important characteristic (important, as it is a nice counterbalance to the definetly not democratic Soviet 'federation' we are all much more familiar with).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
...And following this, I was reverted by Piotrus, this time with the following summary:
Piotrus, too bad you did not check talk before accusing me in not using it. This is plain obvious and I will repeat the arguments just for you. There is no disagreement among the scholars that Miedzymorze was going to be "Polish-led". Many say so and no one says the opposite. As for it being "democratic", there is a source, you added, that says so, but there are sources that say quite an opposite. The Billington's ref was already in the article. I just added another one. Besides, the sources that say otherwise are supported by the latter history as Pilsudski showed zero respect towards the progressive democratic political culture.
Well, then, since you persisted in inserting the statement supported only by selected sources, I purged "democratic" from the lead only (because it is disputed among the sources) and I added the sourced "anti-Democratic" claim in the text to provide the full set of opinions thus fulfilling your request for references that show "Miedzymorze would not be democratic". Regards, -- Irpen 21:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Piotrus, if you persist with forking the discussion that rightfully belongs to Miedzymorze article, I will have to complement your sources with the ones that say the opposite. This is called NPOV, both sides arguments deserve presentation and the reader is left to judge. The version where I presented the reader with two sides [8] was promptly reverted (along with refs I added) by Rechenbach [9] and by Lysy [10]. One more time I propose to leave this discussion to Miedzymorze article but if you or those who revert to your version persist to fork it here, please at least do not revert the sources I will add that view the situation differently and advise your colleagues about the same. -- Irpen 22:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Lysy, I removed Truskoff. I also made it clear that the ref to Zerkalo is in fact to a book by a professor of History, Oleksa Pidlutskyi. Zerkalo merely reprinted the chapter of this book and this is very convenient for us as it is available online to use. -- Irpen 01:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Oleksa Pidlutskyi is a professor of Communist economy. Xx236 08:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 09:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
biografia Xx236 10:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There were Soviet-Ukrainian fights after the armistice, which should be mentioned. Xx236 08:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as well as PL sponsored post war incursions into Belarus. -- Irpen 19:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Robert Conquest mentioned guerrilla revolts (relatively small, consisting of units of 100 or so armed fighters) in Ukraine until the late 1920s. Nestor Makhno fought the Bolshiviks until August 1921. Faustian 19:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This is another useful source: a short article on Covert Polish missions across the Soviet Ukrainian border, 1928-1933 ( p.1, p.2, p.3, p.4, [p.5 - luckily all 5 pages are visible via Google Print). I specifically like the part about Holodomor refugees in Poland hoping for Polish liberation of Ukraine... The author is Timothy Snyder, although the book seems to have been printed in Italy.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
We have sources that describe the result as Soviet defeat ( [11], [12]); that obviously equals Polish victory. Do we have any sources to the contrary? If not, then please stop reverting Polish victory. Of course feel free to expand the footnote which describes why it was not a total victory, but the fact remains that it was the Soviets who were defeated at Warsaw and sued for peace, not the other way around.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Besides the fact that the result is confirmed by two references, please note that FAC consensus was for 'Polish victory'. The consensus was undisputably reached in April 2005 when the article was featured. Last vote at that time took place on 21 April, this is the article after last edit on that day; you can see the article states the war ended with a Polish victory - the point which some users are disputing.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Would a 'minor Polish victory' be a good compromise to everyone? Irpen supported it last year, and so did I.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 03:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Why pushing a POV words like "camouflaging campaign as join effort instead of naked aggression"? I mean I don't care it came from some pro-Soviet source. If this was another offensive in a war, then how you acn use "naked aggression" sentence at all? Not to mention the clear POVness of such formulation Szopen 12:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
From Kiev Offensive talk: While I agree that some citations dont hurt, there is some evident tendentious bias in mass quoting of everything that is extremely unfavourable to Poland several times in the article, in situations where a simple reference would suffice. One good ref would be much better than, say, an obscure citation from "Zerkalo Nedeli" on an article of this scope. Thoughts? Reichenbach 12:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The article has been stable for months and all of a sudden someone decide again to prop up the glorification of the Polish military hisotry and change the outcome (long time ago settled to a neutral version) to the Polish victory. The tag of war was picked up by several familiar editors who insist on removing the referenced info, along with references, and resolt to sloppy fast hand reverts of the edits that merged lots of info into the article, in fact hours of my work. I leave this in disgust until I see some resemblence of reasonable editing. The article, with the result POVed, sourced statements and sources deleted is tagged appropriately. -- Irpen 22:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
In response to Balcer, why not look for the course of an entire war, like Kiev debacle? If not the victory in Warsaw, the outcome would have been "decisive Polish defeat" instead of inconclusive.
In response to Piotrus above, No, I don't find "Minor Polish victory" appropriate either. I accepted it when we where choosing between different victories, defeats, inconclusive outcomes. No one came up with the Peace of Riga at that stage. Now, when we have this option, I see no need for a POV result.
Note, that this row over a stable article was started in a familiar way. Somebody decided all of a sudden, that Polish miltary glory needs a prop up and changed an outcome from a stable version, there for months. -- Irpen 16:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The end of the WW2 was a total disintegration of Germany and its seeing it left to the Mercy of the allies. Your analogy does not fly. Poland wanted Ukraine (read Britannica) and did not get it. Soviets found out that they actually may get the whole Poland (they did not plan it in the start) but also did not get it. -- Irpen 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, you, and not me, brought up the WW2 analogy that you now concede was "highly exceptional in international affairs". In some of the other wars, one state fulfilled its goals why the other did not. In PSW, Poland's goal was to achieve a PL dominated Ukraine. This goal was not achieved. Soviets did not have a clear goal in the start at all. When Sovietization of Poland started to seem feasable, it became a goal which also was not achieved. Ukraine, the main bounty in that game, went to Soviets while Poland actually got only the part of Ukraine it had before the war. -- Irpen 17:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, Polish future plans for UA are not "hypothetical". They are all in the Pilsidski/Petlura treaty.
As for the definign the border, there was a Polish de-facto control of the territory it conquered from crushing Western Ukrainian Republic. Poland decided, it also wants an entire Ukraine as a sattelite state. It did not get it. In the end, Poland ended up with what it conquered before the war. -- Irpen 19:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Polish plans for Ukraine are not hypothetical but real and known. They were not implemented but we do not need to hypothesize what they were. The treaty says it all. I don't think PL would have succeeded in oppressing the whole Ukraine. It hardly managed with 1/4 of it in the interwar years, but it is a different thing from saying that it would not have tried. Actually it did try that, both in Galicia and Volhynia (for 20 years after the war) AND in central Ukraine where the action of the occupiers are vividly described by the Babel's diary (a documentary, not a fiction book). I can't tell much of Belarus at this point.
The end line is, what's wrong with Peace of Riga? You want to point me to RJ War? I can point you to Yom Kippur War. What's your problem with the Peace of Riga? -- Irpen 19:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Debo's other quotes were innaccurate (i.e., when he claimed that Ukrainian participation was inconsequential - Ukrainians made up about 19% of the invasion force and were given full control over Kiev), so I'm wondering what his sources were. Also, I wonder about his claims about the Treaty between Pilsudski and Petliura. When he mentioned Ukraine's obligations but failed to note Poland's reciprocal obligation under the treaty, this indicated to me that he was trying to present a one-sided (and thus innacurate and tendentious) part of the story. This might reflect his choice fo primary sources for his book. I read parts of the treaty in one of Davies' works a few years ago, so my memory is not perfect (perhaps one of our Polish friends can find it?) I know that Poland was granted extensive rights to invest in Ukraine's industries and mines (something the French had in those and other parts of the russian Empire before the revolution) but this was no more domination than that enjoyed by, for example, the French. As for military subordination - it seems to have been something along the lines of NATO. Were Germany, Italy, etc. militarily subordinated to America during the cold War? Certainly such a situation would have involved far far less subordination than that of Soviet Ukraine to Moscow. regards Faustian 19:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Since we started to discuss plans for Ukraine (non-hypothetical, if not well described on wiki yet) and hypothetical future, I have a treat for the Polish-speaking editors: fragment of (relativly) new short story by Andrzej Pilipiuk, to my knowledge the only one alternative history dealing with what would happen if Prometheism worked out and Poland would 'liberate' Ukraine by invading Soviet Union in late 1920s or early 1930s. A great read, which I strongly recommend, especially as in this book (of Polish author) the main hero is a Ukrainian patriotic 'freedom fighter' (and a positive character at that).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
My impression was that Polish firms would get first choice in the construction of mines, and would get a major share of Ukraine's industries, etc. Poland did a lot for Ukraine and expected a lot in return. The situation would perhaps be comparable to, for example, the American/British role in Iran's oil industry under the shah. Ukraine would have been heavily influenced and affected by Poland, but would not have been a puppet of Poland in the way that, for example, the states of eastern Europe were puppets of the USSR during the Cold War. Faustian 00:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Davies, p.263 of WERS, states that the war ended in stalmate, no side can be considered victorious.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The Galicians were quite conservative and thus maintained cordial relations with Russia's Whites (resulting in conflicts with the Reds). So I was suspsicious of the claims abou tthem joining the Reds despite their dislike of the Poles. My suspecions seem to have been correct. From the Encyclopedia of Ukraine (full reference in the article):
"As a result of the retreat of the White Russian army, Bolshevik units on November 19, 1919 reached the garrison of the Ukrainian Galician units near Vynnytsia. The Galician High Command ordered the troops to abandon sick soldiers and to move to Odessa where the army of General Denikin had retreated. To protect thousands of sick soldiers from hostile treatment by the Bolsheviks a Galician Revolutionary Committee was formed in Vynnytsia under N. Hirniak. It refused to obey the orders of the Galician High COmmand and began negotiations with the Red Army for the inclusion in it of the Galician units...the Galician Revolutionary Committee on January 12, 1920 made an agreement with the command of the Soviet 12th army, by which the Galician forces became a component of the Soviet 12th army, as the Red Ukrainian Galician Army (Red UHA). Bolshevik authorities arrested Generals Mykytka and Ziritz and tried to destroy the national character of the Galician units; they did not succeed in this however...the opportunistic nature of the agreement with the Bolsheviks was revealed when the Galician units of the Red UHA encountered the forces of the UNR in April 1920. then the Galician Second Cavalry Brigade commanded by George Sheparovych and the Third Brigade joined the UNR forces. But the Poles disarmed both brigades and interred them in Polish camps. The First Brigade of the Galician Sich Riflemen, surrounded by the Poles in Pykivka, laid down its arms. The officers and men who succeeded in escaping internment entered the sixth Kherson Division of the UNR...after some Galician units went over to the UNR the Bolsheviks punished or deported many of the remaining Galician soldiers." Faustian
At 101kb, this article is getting too long. Please think what can be moved to the subarticles (see {{ Polish-Soviet War}}), please also note that they have not been updated since the article was FAed, and may contain some POVed/unreferenced parts. I'd also like to split off the controversies section, it was added after the FA and we can shave few kbs of the articles by linking it from a single sentence about controversies related to this war.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the UGA, the "Pygmy Wars" website is back up and has a LOT of information (taken, I think, largely from Kubiyovych's Encyclopedia...) Faustian
I split the section and some other pieces, we need to keep this article under 100kb :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I objected to the spinoff proposal in my 04:21, October 29, 2006 entry at this talk. Your spin-off edit took place 17:43, October 30, 2006, that is way after. Thus, after my voicing an objection and the discussion over a disagreement still onloing, you decided to force it your way without a single editor, other than us who disagreed, expressing himself on the issue. Note, that we both agreed on two parts to be spun-off. You, however, kept those but removed the section over which the agreement was just not there. As for this being unimportant, I would rather call it inconvenient. Makes a difference. -- Irpen 06:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
As you can see, over the past weeks I have been adding more inline cits to the article, but there are still many unreferenced facts. Any help with referencing facts (and numbers!) would be greatly appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following senctence. "however as that operation was codenamed 'Target Vistula' it caused much concern among the Poles." [1]
The note in Russian westward offensive of 1918-1919 claims that this name does not exist in the historiography of the period. Also the sentence is trivial and of small notability. Joelito ( talk) 18:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
This comment is addressed to Irpen who reverted my change, but of course I would appreciate any input by other editors.
Here is what the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on the Russo-Polish War says in its three first sentences:
Russo-Polish War (1919–20), military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine. It resulted in the establishment of the Russo-Polish border that existed until 1939.
Although there had been hostilities between the two countries during 1919, the conflict began when the Polish head of state Józef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura (April 21, 1920) and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7.
So, the first sentence implies the war started in 1919, and the third that it started in 1920. Which one should we believe? Clearly, we have a case of a reference which blatantly contradicts itself. If we really want to include a reference to Encyclopedia Britannica, we must be honest, and not quote the sentence which favours one point of view.
The article currently claims that: Encyclopedia Britannica considers the Polish thrust into Ukraine of 1920 as the starting point of the war. This is obviously not the whole truth. We must reword the statement to correctly represent what that encyclopedia actually says. I await proposals from Irpen on how to handle this conundrum. Balcer 01:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I commented out text that had citation requests for some weeks now and that nobody referenced (and I looked for that data).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am currently working at the german version of this article ( Polnisch-Sowjetischer Krieg). First me and another user started to de-POV a version that was unbearably stuffed with Soviet propganda formulas. (we used the enwiki-Article). During that I got interested in the topic did some additional work. The article is currently running to be featured article in dewiki. My major problem now is a lack of literature. I have used Evan, Mawdsley : The Russian Civil War(for military issues), Davies, Norman : White Eagle - Red Star (for political issues) and I also searched the Blackbook of Communism. The thing is Davies describes war-crimes and civilian sufferings quite briefly. The other authors miss these issues completely. Could somebody give me the title of a book, which has more information about war-crimes and civilian casualies in the Polish-Soviet War ?? Greetings and Best Wishes Nasiruddin Discussion Nov 16th 19:09 2006
What relevance does the recovery of Ukrainian and Belorussian territory by Russia in 1772-1795 have in this conflict? If history from 120 years prior is to be taken into perspective, then perhaps it should also be mentioned that Lithuania and Poland seized land from Russia during the Riurikid dynasty in the 14th century. The land Poland was trying to sieze was predominantly inhabited by East Slavic peoples who wanted nothing to do with Poland. It would be like trying to justify an attempt by Turkey to invade Greece and Bulgaria on the basis of "undoing Russian aggression".
This war shows that the soviets were never really that much of a war machine that was to be propped up. The russains never could fight on the offensive. They could fight on the defensive. YankeeRoman( 70.187.232.85 16:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC))