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Your edit summary said restructure in order of size of community
, but what you did is much more than that, as we both know. You completely removed the Arab League paragraph, which explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations. Why do you not find that relevant?
Synotia (
talk)
08:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
"explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations", whereas the truth is that the position of the Arab League
"is the secondary reason why approximately [10%] of Palestinian-refugees have remained stateless after all these generations". I don’t see that as lede-worthy, but I don’t object to it being in the lede so long as it is given due weight and written with very careful contextualization. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.
careful contextualizationper Once), it seems not particularly lead worthy given that the Arab League is not primarily responsible for
why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generationsas you suggest. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
careful contextualizationwhose importance you are both eager to underline. Synotia ( talk) 11:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
The Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship of these countries, "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Synotia ( talk) 16:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
The book has "the LAS was instrumental in the creation of a regional framework for the protection of basic rights – mostly economic and social rights – of Palestinian refugees, which culminated in the adoption of the 1965 Casablanca Protocol on the Treatment of Palestinians, discussed below. Arguably, in elaborating this framework, political (and security) considerations were a primary factor, as important as considerations of Arab solidarity; the main preoccupation of the Arab states, as vocally expressed in international fora, was to affirm that Palestinian refugees should be allowed to return to their homes in present-day Israel. Hence the Arab states decided that the refugees should not be naturalized, as this was perceived as undermining their claims under General Assembly resolution 194(III) of 1948 (hereinafter ‘resolution 194’)." In any case the situation of the refugees needs to be traced back through their effective exclusion from the Refugee convention and up through the PLO support for Saddam Hussein in 90/91 leading to resolution 5093 of 12 September 1991, which stipulated that the Protocol’s implementation would be subject to ‘the rules and laws in force in each state’ (a substantial weakening of the protocol in practice). Selfstudier ( talk) 10:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
secure their right to return to their homeland"? Synotia ( talk) 11:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I've noticed this article does not discuss the palestinians that went to Egypt after 1948 even though there is a large number of them Dana Saber ( talk) 19:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The text in the 4th paragraph about the 700,000 displaced Arabs is misleading.
"During the 1948 Palestine War, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs or 85% of the total population in what became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes, to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and to the countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan."
It could be read to mean "85% of the 1945 total population of Israel, minus the West Bank, Gaza, and east Jerusalem", which might be true. It could also mean "85% of the total Arab population in what became Israel". That could be close to true. However, it implies "85% of the total population in all the territory today known as Israel". Which is no where near true. The population is listed in a linked article, /info/en/?search=Mandator,y_Palestine#Demographics, as being 1,764,520, with Arabs being 1,061,270. But 700,000 isn't 85% of 1,061,270, and it isn't 85% of 1,764,520.
I'm not sure what the data refers to, but it's certainly misleading. 71.226.69.156 ( talk) 18:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Fixed. Selfstudier ( talk) 19:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
- Refugees are systematically as war refugees here which is giving a wrong impression to readers.Should Arabe ountries had won that war then maybe Palestinians could have stayed but it is not even certain. Europe might have come to the rescue. So, the real reason is the estabishment of Israel.
(To me it is a bit the same as claiming that the purge of all Jews (but now only: all European diaspora) was due to the fact that Arabs had lost this war, out of pride. In reality it was a reaction to a project (Israel) they had always been opposed to.)
So it weems unfair to claim that Palestinians were refugees of a war that would never had happened without zionism.
2. There were 250'000 refugees in Gaza strip beginning of 1950 and a total population of 1'760^000 in 2015 based on my research. The number of refugees and their descents cannot possibly be 550'000. I couldn't fin a chart on UNWRA . It is really difficult to extract facts from there. I used a Website called Statistica (refresh browser each time).
3. There were refugees before WWWII. Whole villages erased and people thrown out and put on road by very hot wether. I'll try to find a source.
4. Anything more precise about West Bank? When they arrived and how many? (I struggle to find figuress) Thank you. Leaving Neveland ( talk) 00:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
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The claim about Benny Morris is incorrect and footnote 32 supporting this position is taken out of context.
The line currently reads, According to historian Benny Morris, the expulsion was planned and encouraged by the Zionist leadership.[32]
However it should read: According to historian Benny Morris, expulsion was encouraged by some Zionist leaders during parts of the 1948 war, although it was never established policy.[32]
The beginning of the footnote [32] 2601:45:4001:AA60:C8DD:9A25:DC43:F6BF ( talk) 04:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Palestinian refugees article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
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Your edit summary said restructure in order of size of community
, but what you did is much more than that, as we both know. You completely removed the Arab League paragraph, which explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations. Why do you not find that relevant?
Synotia (
talk)
08:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
"explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations", whereas the truth is that the position of the Arab League
"is the secondary reason why approximately [10%] of Palestinian-refugees have remained stateless after all these generations". I don’t see that as lede-worthy, but I don’t object to it being in the lede so long as it is given due weight and written with very careful contextualization. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.
careful contextualizationper Once), it seems not particularly lead worthy given that the Arab League is not primarily responsible for
why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generationsas you suggest. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
careful contextualizationwhose importance you are both eager to underline. Synotia ( talk) 11:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
The Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship of these countries, "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Synotia ( talk) 16:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
The book has "the LAS was instrumental in the creation of a regional framework for the protection of basic rights – mostly economic and social rights – of Palestinian refugees, which culminated in the adoption of the 1965 Casablanca Protocol on the Treatment of Palestinians, discussed below. Arguably, in elaborating this framework, political (and security) considerations were a primary factor, as important as considerations of Arab solidarity; the main preoccupation of the Arab states, as vocally expressed in international fora, was to affirm that Palestinian refugees should be allowed to return to their homes in present-day Israel. Hence the Arab states decided that the refugees should not be naturalized, as this was perceived as undermining their claims under General Assembly resolution 194(III) of 1948 (hereinafter ‘resolution 194’)." In any case the situation of the refugees needs to be traced back through their effective exclusion from the Refugee convention and up through the PLO support for Saddam Hussein in 90/91 leading to resolution 5093 of 12 September 1991, which stipulated that the Protocol’s implementation would be subject to ‘the rules and laws in force in each state’ (a substantial weakening of the protocol in practice). Selfstudier ( talk) 10:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
secure their right to return to their homeland"? Synotia ( talk) 11:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I've noticed this article does not discuss the palestinians that went to Egypt after 1948 even though there is a large number of them Dana Saber ( talk) 19:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The text in the 4th paragraph about the 700,000 displaced Arabs is misleading.
"During the 1948 Palestine War, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs or 85% of the total population in what became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes, to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and to the countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan."
It could be read to mean "85% of the 1945 total population of Israel, minus the West Bank, Gaza, and east Jerusalem", which might be true. It could also mean "85% of the total Arab population in what became Israel". That could be close to true. However, it implies "85% of the total population in all the territory today known as Israel". Which is no where near true. The population is listed in a linked article, /info/en/?search=Mandator,y_Palestine#Demographics, as being 1,764,520, with Arabs being 1,061,270. But 700,000 isn't 85% of 1,061,270, and it isn't 85% of 1,764,520.
I'm not sure what the data refers to, but it's certainly misleading. 71.226.69.156 ( talk) 18:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Fixed. Selfstudier ( talk) 19:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
- Refugees are systematically as war refugees here which is giving a wrong impression to readers.Should Arabe ountries had won that war then maybe Palestinians could have stayed but it is not even certain. Europe might have come to the rescue. So, the real reason is the estabishment of Israel.
(To me it is a bit the same as claiming that the purge of all Jews (but now only: all European diaspora) was due to the fact that Arabs had lost this war, out of pride. In reality it was a reaction to a project (Israel) they had always been opposed to.)
So it weems unfair to claim that Palestinians were refugees of a war that would never had happened without zionism.
2. There were 250'000 refugees in Gaza strip beginning of 1950 and a total population of 1'760^000 in 2015 based on my research. The number of refugees and their descents cannot possibly be 550'000. I couldn't fin a chart on UNWRA . It is really difficult to extract facts from there. I used a Website called Statistica (refresh browser each time).
3. There were refugees before WWWII. Whole villages erased and people thrown out and put on road by very hot wether. I'll try to find a source.
4. Anything more precise about West Bank? When they arrived and how many? (I struggle to find figuress) Thank you. Leaving Neveland ( talk) 00:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The claim about Benny Morris is incorrect and footnote 32 supporting this position is taken out of context.
The line currently reads, According to historian Benny Morris, the expulsion was planned and encouraged by the Zionist leadership.[32]
However it should read: According to historian Benny Morris, expulsion was encouraged by some Zionist leaders during parts of the 1948 war, although it was never established policy.[32]
The beginning of the footnote [32] 2601:45:4001:AA60:C8DD:9A25:DC43:F6BF ( talk) 04:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)