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Someone just changed "In a time of civil war..." to "In the time of civil war..." Wasn't there more than one era of civil wars in Japan? Z Wylld 20:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone, and Colin4C in particular. Colin4C, I disagree that your edit just preceding mine is "better" in toto, and so I do not think it was appropriate to simply revert everything I did without any discussion. However, I am not going to argue about that, because it appears to be more a matter of stylistic preferences than anything else. As for your "TV guide" comment, I thought that was a bit snide; but substantively, my question is this: I have seen many Wiki articles about books, movies, etc. that include a "spoiler" warning at the beginning of sections summarizing the plot or story. This was why I deleted certain parts of this section here, because not being a computer person, I don't know how to add the warning. Is the "spoiler" warning not a standard device in Wiki? If not, I wonder why it is available at all. Cheers... Z Wylld ( talk) 20:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I agree it's strange why anybody would want to read it in the first place, but you dont get featured articles without it. Yojimbo501 ( talk) 22:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to write this articulately or even be too concerned about being perfectly semantically correct because It's late and this ain't my job!
The story section as it is now is insufficient. It must be explained early that Hachi was comrades at arms with the girls husband, and that in the beginning of the film he returns from war without him, his story being that they were both captured by the enemy and he barely escapes. (I think he says the enemy ultimately kills the husband, or maybe he only says he assumes they eventually kill him -- at any rate the mother is skeptical of not only this piece of the story but in fact the whole thing -- maybe Hachi killed the husband -- it cuts dramatically to the mother's face when he says "we couldn't tell friend or foe apart!" (or something like that) early on in his story. The girls are mother and daughter-IN-LAW.. The mother is interested in perpetuating her seed. Thus her interest in keeping the daughter chaste, in case her son returns. And in general the news of the son's death is what generates all of the mother's behavior. Partly she wants to keep the daughter chaste for the possibility of the husband returning, and partly it's just to sustain her own delusion that the husband might return -- a way to deal with her grief. And also she's just full of pain and wants to hurt someone else -- disrupt this young girls love and sex and young life. Also this generates and explains why she in fact wants to fight with the girl over Hachi... Partly to hurt the girl, and partly she's interested in perpetuating her seed -- her son's dead and she needs a new child or children. With her child dead, she just yearns for a new man -- note scene where she wraps her body around the phallic tree -- she needs penis, truly -- new kids to replace her son and her love for her son. Also should note the symbolism of the big hole -- there's conflation of the hole with the vagina and thus woman and sexuality -- this is established when Hachi is running around like a madman because he needs sex and he comes to the big hole and breaks down in front of it, stretching his hands out for it (i believe this happens -- anyway he does something with the hole that conflates it w/ a vagina.. plus i think there's other stuff that does this.. at any rate, it's a big hole.).. They fill the hole with dead bodies of lost warriors they kill for food to survive. Imagine the psychological tax of this behavior. The killing of stray samurai they were forced to do, and thus the war in general -- and the son's death it caused -- all this -- has poisoned the sexuality of the characters -- and has poisoned these women's lives in general -- the vagina hole gets filled with rotting dead bodies -- poisoned... okay really just throwing this down here; apologies.... okay, you know, I will watch the movie again, and read what i can find on it -- study it to some extent -- and I'll try to update this page myself in a few weeks. I appreciate that most of what I've written is not plot but analysis. I will be careful to update both the plot and the analysis sections separately and keep them distinct. --Eric Schmidt, 4:32 AM April 27th 2008
I made a Reflist tag and put proper references (albeit in offline form by accident). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yojimbo501 ( talk • contribs) 01:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Why both sources and references sections, and why is "sources" not referenced? JoshuSasori ( talk) 03:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
The whole "reception" section is pretty much a joke at the moment. Does anyone want to defend the reviews quoted there or the reputations of the reviewers, or is it OK to just remove all of it? JoshuSasori ( talk) 08:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Can we get a new poster, folks? This Italian image is a joke, totally unrepresentative of the film. 35.24.46.141 ( talk) 16:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)fed_up
A recent edit changed "yomeodoshi no men" to "yomeodoshi no oni no men". I reverted this out, but just because I don't want to be accused of reverting edits willy-nilly, here are google results for the two terms, the first one the one I used, and the second is the one the edit above changed it to.
Term | Romaji | Search google | Hits |
---|---|---|---|
"嫁おどしの面" | Yome odoshi no men | [1] | 4,600 results |
"嫁おどしの鬼の面" | Yome odoshi no oni no men | [2] | 2 results |
Even worse, one of the two results at the bottom seems to be the same one which the editor used to add the reference: http://www.scribd.com/doc/58931112/Modern-Japanese-Buddhism
Also I don't think Shindo based on Noh play and would take quite some convincing before I believed this. Sorry editor to revert you like this and I hope you will make some good edits to the article in future. Thanks. JoshuSasori ( talk) 09:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The Guardian article provides the source for the notion that it is based on a Shin Buddhist legend. At the moment there is no citation for the exact name of the legend which was used to write the story. JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
If someone wants to add to the introduction of the article that this film is based on Noh dramatics, that would need a good reference that it was the film director's intent. As it is that is presented using references to critical analyses, and a bit dubious. The online version of Keiko McDonald simply gives her impression that it is based on Noh. I spent quite a time a day or two ago removing completely bogus statements from Tokyo Drifter which were claimed to be supported by a book which actually said nothing of the kind. Please discuss if there are such references. JoshuSasori ( talk) 10:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see she's not a notable film reviewer so there is no justification for adding her analysis that this film is based on Noh. JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Again, the discussion is not about the film being based on noh but containing elements of noh (as well as of the horror film). I named five sources which undermine this. Your unwillingness to accept my argument begins to look a bit arbitrary. – Robert Kerber ( talk) 06:49, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
As per the request left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film#Onibaba (film):
The main dispute concerns the intro: "Onibaba (鬼婆?, literally Demon Hag) is a 1964 Japanese drama film based on a Buddhist parable. Thematically and visually, the film incorporates elements of the Noh theater and the horror film." User Joshua repeatedly reverted my changes although I had given 5 sources to undermine the categorization and influences mentioned.-- Robert Kerber ( talk) 23:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
There are two assertions here:
I can't assess the validity of these claims without knowing what the sources say. Robert you say you have five sources backing up these claims. Can you please list each source and quote the relevant text please? Betty Logan ( talk) 22:20, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This review:
Anton Bitel
Bitel, Anton (11 September 2005).
"Onibaba (1964) Movie Review from Eye for Film". {{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |retrieved=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help) seems like it could be useful for the reception section.
JoshuSasori (
talk) 12:17, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This edit was reverted by Robert Kerber. I watched the film again yesterday and did not notice a significant amount of slow motion. Shindo undoubtedly did not have a slow motion camera. Where in the film are the distorted or strange camera angles? (Also why does anyone not know the difference between jazz played on brass instruments and Noh music?) JoshuSasori ( talk) 21:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't think a third opinion is needed here. There is some slow motion at the very end of the film but there is none in the places you claim there is. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
The above discussions were added to the "dispute resolution notice board": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Onibaba JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:31, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I found a nice reference for this film in one of Shindo's books which I hadn't heard of before. I didn't know this but he wrote SIX autobiographical books in around 1994, which are "Shindo Kaneto No Ashiato" series. There is a whole chapter on Onibaba, plus the script. There is also some really nice material consisting of storyboards from the film in the book, which unfortunately is unuseable in Wikipedia. Anyway once I can get the book I will add some more information to the article concerning this, which can go in the production section. (I have to apply for a library card at the library where it is stored & it takes a week!) There is also Shindo Kaneto no Juhon covering Onibaba but I have not tracked down a copy yet. See also Talk:Kaneto Shindo for more details. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:08, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Alanna Donaldson and the Directory of World Cinema meet the Wikipedia "reliable source" criteria. The book is a reprint of reviews from a user-generated website, and it is very unclear whether there is any editorial control over the reviews. I believe this is user-generated content on the same level as IMDB (very lightly checked) and is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. Thus, I am removing the Alanna Donaldson content from this article. JoshuSasori ( talk) 06:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand why anyone would want to use such an abomination of a review as a reference for a Wikipedia article. Please find a better source of information. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:08, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I remember seeing this film (in England) soon after its release, and in the opening titles it was subtitled, in parenthesis, in English (The Hole). I am surprised that this hasn't been mentioned anywhere in the article. Anton Bitel's review page linked to by JoshuSasori above also mentions this. Romit3 ( talk) 21:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Someone just changed "In a time of civil war..." to "In the time of civil war..." Wasn't there more than one era of civil wars in Japan? Z Wylld 20:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone, and Colin4C in particular. Colin4C, I disagree that your edit just preceding mine is "better" in toto, and so I do not think it was appropriate to simply revert everything I did without any discussion. However, I am not going to argue about that, because it appears to be more a matter of stylistic preferences than anything else. As for your "TV guide" comment, I thought that was a bit snide; but substantively, my question is this: I have seen many Wiki articles about books, movies, etc. that include a "spoiler" warning at the beginning of sections summarizing the plot or story. This was why I deleted certain parts of this section here, because not being a computer person, I don't know how to add the warning. Is the "spoiler" warning not a standard device in Wiki? If not, I wonder why it is available at all. Cheers... Z Wylld ( talk) 20:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I agree it's strange why anybody would want to read it in the first place, but you dont get featured articles without it. Yojimbo501 ( talk) 22:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to write this articulately or even be too concerned about being perfectly semantically correct because It's late and this ain't my job!
The story section as it is now is insufficient. It must be explained early that Hachi was comrades at arms with the girls husband, and that in the beginning of the film he returns from war without him, his story being that they were both captured by the enemy and he barely escapes. (I think he says the enemy ultimately kills the husband, or maybe he only says he assumes they eventually kill him -- at any rate the mother is skeptical of not only this piece of the story but in fact the whole thing -- maybe Hachi killed the husband -- it cuts dramatically to the mother's face when he says "we couldn't tell friend or foe apart!" (or something like that) early on in his story. The girls are mother and daughter-IN-LAW.. The mother is interested in perpetuating her seed. Thus her interest in keeping the daughter chaste, in case her son returns. And in general the news of the son's death is what generates all of the mother's behavior. Partly she wants to keep the daughter chaste for the possibility of the husband returning, and partly it's just to sustain her own delusion that the husband might return -- a way to deal with her grief. And also she's just full of pain and wants to hurt someone else -- disrupt this young girls love and sex and young life. Also this generates and explains why she in fact wants to fight with the girl over Hachi... Partly to hurt the girl, and partly she's interested in perpetuating her seed -- her son's dead and she needs a new child or children. With her child dead, she just yearns for a new man -- note scene where she wraps her body around the phallic tree -- she needs penis, truly -- new kids to replace her son and her love for her son. Also should note the symbolism of the big hole -- there's conflation of the hole with the vagina and thus woman and sexuality -- this is established when Hachi is running around like a madman because he needs sex and he comes to the big hole and breaks down in front of it, stretching his hands out for it (i believe this happens -- anyway he does something with the hole that conflates it w/ a vagina.. plus i think there's other stuff that does this.. at any rate, it's a big hole.).. They fill the hole with dead bodies of lost warriors they kill for food to survive. Imagine the psychological tax of this behavior. The killing of stray samurai they were forced to do, and thus the war in general -- and the son's death it caused -- all this -- has poisoned the sexuality of the characters -- and has poisoned these women's lives in general -- the vagina hole gets filled with rotting dead bodies -- poisoned... okay really just throwing this down here; apologies.... okay, you know, I will watch the movie again, and read what i can find on it -- study it to some extent -- and I'll try to update this page myself in a few weeks. I appreciate that most of what I've written is not plot but analysis. I will be careful to update both the plot and the analysis sections separately and keep them distinct. --Eric Schmidt, 4:32 AM April 27th 2008
I made a Reflist tag and put proper references (albeit in offline form by accident). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yojimbo501 ( talk • contribs) 01:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Why both sources and references sections, and why is "sources" not referenced? JoshuSasori ( talk) 03:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
The whole "reception" section is pretty much a joke at the moment. Does anyone want to defend the reviews quoted there or the reputations of the reviewers, or is it OK to just remove all of it? JoshuSasori ( talk) 08:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Can we get a new poster, folks? This Italian image is a joke, totally unrepresentative of the film. 35.24.46.141 ( talk) 16:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)fed_up
A recent edit changed "yomeodoshi no men" to "yomeodoshi no oni no men". I reverted this out, but just because I don't want to be accused of reverting edits willy-nilly, here are google results for the two terms, the first one the one I used, and the second is the one the edit above changed it to.
Term | Romaji | Search google | Hits |
---|---|---|---|
"嫁おどしの面" | Yome odoshi no men | [1] | 4,600 results |
"嫁おどしの鬼の面" | Yome odoshi no oni no men | [2] | 2 results |
Even worse, one of the two results at the bottom seems to be the same one which the editor used to add the reference: http://www.scribd.com/doc/58931112/Modern-Japanese-Buddhism
Also I don't think Shindo based on Noh play and would take quite some convincing before I believed this. Sorry editor to revert you like this and I hope you will make some good edits to the article in future. Thanks. JoshuSasori ( talk) 09:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The Guardian article provides the source for the notion that it is based on a Shin Buddhist legend. At the moment there is no citation for the exact name of the legend which was used to write the story. JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
If someone wants to add to the introduction of the article that this film is based on Noh dramatics, that would need a good reference that it was the film director's intent. As it is that is presented using references to critical analyses, and a bit dubious. The online version of Keiko McDonald simply gives her impression that it is based on Noh. I spent quite a time a day or two ago removing completely bogus statements from Tokyo Drifter which were claimed to be supported by a book which actually said nothing of the kind. Please discuss if there are such references. JoshuSasori ( talk) 10:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see she's not a notable film reviewer so there is no justification for adding her analysis that this film is based on Noh. JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Again, the discussion is not about the film being based on noh but containing elements of noh (as well as of the horror film). I named five sources which undermine this. Your unwillingness to accept my argument begins to look a bit arbitrary. – Robert Kerber ( talk) 06:49, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
As per the request left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film#Onibaba (film):
The main dispute concerns the intro: "Onibaba (鬼婆?, literally Demon Hag) is a 1964 Japanese drama film based on a Buddhist parable. Thematically and visually, the film incorporates elements of the Noh theater and the horror film." User Joshua repeatedly reverted my changes although I had given 5 sources to undermine the categorization and influences mentioned.-- Robert Kerber ( talk) 23:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
There are two assertions here:
I can't assess the validity of these claims without knowing what the sources say. Robert you say you have five sources backing up these claims. Can you please list each source and quote the relevant text please? Betty Logan ( talk) 22:20, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This review:
Anton Bitel
Bitel, Anton (11 September 2005).
"Onibaba (1964) Movie Review from Eye for Film". {{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |retrieved=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help) seems like it could be useful for the reception section.
JoshuSasori (
talk) 12:17, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This edit was reverted by Robert Kerber. I watched the film again yesterday and did not notice a significant amount of slow motion. Shindo undoubtedly did not have a slow motion camera. Where in the film are the distorted or strange camera angles? (Also why does anyone not know the difference between jazz played on brass instruments and Noh music?) JoshuSasori ( talk) 21:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't think a third opinion is needed here. There is some slow motion at the very end of the film but there is none in the places you claim there is. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
The above discussions were added to the "dispute resolution notice board": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Onibaba JoshuSasori ( talk) 01:31, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I found a nice reference for this film in one of Shindo's books which I hadn't heard of before. I didn't know this but he wrote SIX autobiographical books in around 1994, which are "Shindo Kaneto No Ashiato" series. There is a whole chapter on Onibaba, plus the script. There is also some really nice material consisting of storyboards from the film in the book, which unfortunately is unuseable in Wikipedia. Anyway once I can get the book I will add some more information to the article concerning this, which can go in the production section. (I have to apply for a library card at the library where it is stored & it takes a week!) There is also Shindo Kaneto no Juhon covering Onibaba but I have not tracked down a copy yet. See also Talk:Kaneto Shindo for more details. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:08, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Alanna Donaldson and the Directory of World Cinema meet the Wikipedia "reliable source" criteria. The book is a reprint of reviews from a user-generated website, and it is very unclear whether there is any editorial control over the reviews. I believe this is user-generated content on the same level as IMDB (very lightly checked) and is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. Thus, I am removing the Alanna Donaldson content from this article. JoshuSasori ( talk) 06:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand why anyone would want to use such an abomination of a review as a reference for a Wikipedia article. Please find a better source of information. JoshuSasori ( talk) 14:08, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I remember seeing this film (in England) soon after its release, and in the opening titles it was subtitled, in parenthesis, in English (The Hole). I am surprised that this hasn't been mentioned anywhere in the article. Anton Bitel's review page linked to by JoshuSasori above also mentions this. Romit3 ( talk) 21:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)