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This is the conventional name, and gets 212 Google results instead of zero.
IF YOU CAME HERE JUST TO VOTE FROM MAIDAN.ORG.UA PLEASE READ THE DISCUSSION FIRST and THIS. ONLY THEN VOTE. YES! YOU DO HAVE A VOTE! Now 12:12.
We should really disqualify a number of votes of those people who came (most likely) from that Maidan place. Can you imagine what's gonna happen here if I post a message at some Russian website? What Andriy did at Maidan is not fair, if you ask me. Only registered users with a history of contributions (participation, if you will) should be allowed to vote. And not people (like MaryMaidan, Paul_Kiss etc.), who voted here, and then went on about their daily business somewhere in Ukraine without even knowing what Wikipedia is. If this goes on like this, I will have to withdraw my vote and avoid participating in this farse. KNewman 12:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen, as per my message at this very page posted earlier to this very issue, bringing people from forums, especially in response to AndriyK's and Andrew Alexander's trolling at Maidan is admissible but please use care if you choose to do so. The only thing that worries me about such action, is another flood of users with no understanding of what to do and the resulting debates, even at the settled topics (see below). The real solution is the policy which sets some minimum requirements in terms of time on WP and/or number of edits before one can vote. This has been discussed with no result so far. Please use caution, that's all I am saying. Thanks, Knewman and Kuban kazak for drawing the attention to the problem. -- Irpen 17:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
The user:AndriyK who moved it made a mess in no time he spent on Wikipedia: multiple violations of 3RR ( 1, 2), frivolous renamings of the articles ( see log) and inside the articles ( his contibutions), icluding multiple moves by cut and paste, unspeakable attacks on other users are only part of his actions. See his talk, his contibutions, his log, my talk, etc. -- Irpen 22:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
What is the end date of this poll?— Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 20:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Ilya made a good point about Wikipedia and its mirrors padding the search results. I've adjusted the search links in the move request. — Michael Z. 2005-10-28 20:34 Z
Guys, while "-Wikipedia" is a correct addition to a google test, the rest is an overkill IMO. Google test is a statistical test with rather large margin of error. When the results are seen as an overwhelming preference, as here, google test is meaningful. Doing anything more than "-wikipedia" to the google test isn't necessary. If the advantage isn't convinsing, other criteria should be applied (books, other encyclopedia, media usage, etc.) Here, this is not the case and google is more than convinsing. -- Irpen 20:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Request left unfulfilled due to lack of consensus. Rob Church Talk 12:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This message is for the voters who came prompted by the message posted by now unblocked user:AndriyK and user:Andrew Alexander [1] at Maidan.org.ua, a site which I, personally, respect and read regularly.
Dear guys and girls. It is highly commendable that the recent thread at Maidan forum is bringing attention of Ukrainian participants to Ukrainian topics in English Wikipedia. English WP needs more Ukrainian editors. Please note, however, that voting in the survey is a very import act. Like in political election, it is very desirable that a voter clearly understand what exactly s/he is doing by casting a vote that may decide the election. So, do not blindly vote as you are asked or ordered to vote. We've seen that absentee voting in 2004 presidential Election in Ukraine. Give yourself time to familiarize with the discussion of the issue. Contrary to a misleading subject of the AndriyK's message, this is not a question about Chernihiv article which will certainly stay at Chernihiv and will never be moved to Chernigov. This is about how to call Oleg or other historical figures as discussed at Talk:Chernihiv and other pages. Ask questions and they will be answered. Not just come, vote and leave.
Please understand that if you start to make an impression that the forum brings here users who do nothing but cast votes or help in revert wars, our eastern brothers may as well post a similar request at inosmi.ru or similar forums which will bring a barrage of users, some of whom will be real chauvinists, unlike those labeled by AndriyK, and some of those WILL cast the votes for political, rather than encyclopedic reasons. If such users get a taste of things they can do for Ukraine in WP by making it more conforming their views, which you very well know, then myself's, MichaelZ's, Sashazlv's and others' effort will not be sufficient to defend Ukraine-related articles from REAL POV problems. We should then forget about the possibility to have the Ukrainian coverage expanded in any way by any of us in any future because we will all have our hands full with discussions that Ukrainian is not a Little Russian dialect of the Russian language and such.
Again, please feel free to vote but please familiarize yourself with an issue first. Actions like voting have long term consequences. People who voted for Kuchma may have voted just for Russian to be a state language too. Instead they got his regime for 10 years. Similarly, don't make an ignorant vote here. Study the issue and then vote. Thanks, -- Irpen 16:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I've been queitly followling the mess that is currently going on on EN.WP regarding Ukrainian/Russian-related articles and the edit wars that have been going back and forth between two strong ideologies. One group believes that using Russian transliteration for places, events and names in present-day Ukraine is incorrect. The other firmly stands on using the "popular name" that is most widely used in the world. Both have fair points, and I am not going to really support one or the other because of the sad state this debate has now reached. I understand both viewpoints. I tend to believe that an encyclopedia should remain neutral (as this is one of the most important factors for establishing credibility). However, I also tend to believe that it is more correct to use the official names as designated by the "owner" or "authority" (for example, using Kyiv instead of Kiev in accordance to Ukrainian government laws on the subject). However, I am not one to think of this as serious enough to spend all my time arguing and changing things. To be honest, does it really matter? Anyone seriously studying the subject will no doubt have a better understanding than just "Kyiv is official, Kiev is popular". Anyone just looking up information for general knowledge does not necessarily need to know the most correct way. You may argue against this. But I think it is more important to give just factual information rather than give them a view of how to spell things. All versions should be discussed in the article, with an explanation given as to why one way was chosen over the other. Regardless, it seems this has fully gotten out of hand. The only possible way to establish some kind of stability at this point is to establish a set of guidelines for naming things that both parties can agree on. I recommend that before continuing to edit articles, we all come together and establish some hard rules on the subject.
Maybe this is not the correct place to post this message, but it seems this is one of the hot points of the arguments. So feel free to move this whereever. It's up to you guys! Keep in mind that by just continuing this battle, you are making great fools of yourselves to the rest of the WP community (Kiev has justly been called one of the lamest edit wars).
I am not going to make comments who's right and who's wrong, because everyone has good points. I will be followig this, and hopefully we will be able to come up with something that will end this once and for all. I do realize how difficult it would be, with such a complicated history of the places and the people. But we can do it. Further, I think it would be very important to make the rules be accepting of later changes (in case someone comes and has a different view that is just as accurate).
Thank you. mno 12:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus, I agree that this became ugly. I have no problem with protecting all articles which AndriyK messes up with his anachronistic name changes. AndriyK is ignoring the argument at Talk:Chernihiv#Britannica.27s_use_in_historical_context. This is a representative list of his contributions. Please note that this and the other article were renamed using the vote fraud described above and also at AndriyK's talk page. I am prepared to go for arbitration against AndriyK since all other attempts to talk to him by several people where tried, much more than the RfC would bring. -- Irpen 20:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think AndriyK should be banned. Less restrictive limits on his behaviour is necessary, however, such as prohinition to move articles on his own, to create redirects, personal attacks probation, incuding using of the internet forums for that, and limiting a number of reverts for him from 3 to one per 24 hr period. He is permanently one step under 3RR at several articles. -- Irpen 23:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I propose a revote, this time without interference from a foreign, unrelated site. Kuban kazak 21:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe the problem can be solved by simply moving the article to Oleg Sviatoslavich. Kazak 04:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Note:the name of this article is wrong.De facto there are two princes whose name is Oleg Sviatoslavich, and both of them are rulers of Chernihiv. And it is very wrong to redirect Oleg Sviatoslavich to this article, because there are four (or for someone's opinion, five) rulers who were of this name. All of them are listed in Chinese Wikipedia, see here( Oleg Sviatoslavich).-- Douglasfrankfort 07:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We could game the system by having an Oleg Sviatoslavich and an Oleg Svyatoslavich. If we need more of them we can use Olehs. But remember the create a redirect page which explains who each person is. Cossack 01:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Em... I think the disambigtion page should comprise:
And maybe there are more. -- Douglasfrankfort ( talk to me)
Yes, I will agree, although make sure it is Chernigov!-- Kuban Cossack 09:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Special cases? Well this one is one of them. Quoting from: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/AndriyK
This was clearly a violation of ArbCom's ruling. -- Irpen 08:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I wonder how would you classify article's name change by Kuban kazak? I enjoy reading the summary he provided. Which page move, by AndriyK, or by Kuban kazak was controversial? KPbIC 09:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the conventional name, and gets 212 Google results instead of zero.
IF YOU CAME HERE JUST TO VOTE FROM MAIDAN.ORG.UA PLEASE READ THE DISCUSSION FIRST and THIS. ONLY THEN VOTE. YES! YOU DO HAVE A VOTE! Now 12:12.
We should really disqualify a number of votes of those people who came (most likely) from that Maidan place. Can you imagine what's gonna happen here if I post a message at some Russian website? What Andriy did at Maidan is not fair, if you ask me. Only registered users with a history of contributions (participation, if you will) should be allowed to vote. And not people (like MaryMaidan, Paul_Kiss etc.), who voted here, and then went on about their daily business somewhere in Ukraine without even knowing what Wikipedia is. If this goes on like this, I will have to withdraw my vote and avoid participating in this farse. KNewman 12:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen, as per my message at this very page posted earlier to this very issue, bringing people from forums, especially in response to AndriyK's and Andrew Alexander's trolling at Maidan is admissible but please use care if you choose to do so. The only thing that worries me about such action, is another flood of users with no understanding of what to do and the resulting debates, even at the settled topics (see below). The real solution is the policy which sets some minimum requirements in terms of time on WP and/or number of edits before one can vote. This has been discussed with no result so far. Please use caution, that's all I am saying. Thanks, Knewman and Kuban kazak for drawing the attention to the problem. -- Irpen 17:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
The user:AndriyK who moved it made a mess in no time he spent on Wikipedia: multiple violations of 3RR ( 1, 2), frivolous renamings of the articles ( see log) and inside the articles ( his contibutions), icluding multiple moves by cut and paste, unspeakable attacks on other users are only part of his actions. See his talk, his contibutions, his log, my talk, etc. -- Irpen 22:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
What is the end date of this poll?— Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 20:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Ilya made a good point about Wikipedia and its mirrors padding the search results. I've adjusted the search links in the move request. — Michael Z. 2005-10-28 20:34 Z
Guys, while "-Wikipedia" is a correct addition to a google test, the rest is an overkill IMO. Google test is a statistical test with rather large margin of error. When the results are seen as an overwhelming preference, as here, google test is meaningful. Doing anything more than "-wikipedia" to the google test isn't necessary. If the advantage isn't convinsing, other criteria should be applied (books, other encyclopedia, media usage, etc.) Here, this is not the case and google is more than convinsing. -- Irpen 20:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Request left unfulfilled due to lack of consensus. Rob Church Talk 12:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This message is for the voters who came prompted by the message posted by now unblocked user:AndriyK and user:Andrew Alexander [1] at Maidan.org.ua, a site which I, personally, respect and read regularly.
Dear guys and girls. It is highly commendable that the recent thread at Maidan forum is bringing attention of Ukrainian participants to Ukrainian topics in English Wikipedia. English WP needs more Ukrainian editors. Please note, however, that voting in the survey is a very import act. Like in political election, it is very desirable that a voter clearly understand what exactly s/he is doing by casting a vote that may decide the election. So, do not blindly vote as you are asked or ordered to vote. We've seen that absentee voting in 2004 presidential Election in Ukraine. Give yourself time to familiarize with the discussion of the issue. Contrary to a misleading subject of the AndriyK's message, this is not a question about Chernihiv article which will certainly stay at Chernihiv and will never be moved to Chernigov. This is about how to call Oleg or other historical figures as discussed at Talk:Chernihiv and other pages. Ask questions and they will be answered. Not just come, vote and leave.
Please understand that if you start to make an impression that the forum brings here users who do nothing but cast votes or help in revert wars, our eastern brothers may as well post a similar request at inosmi.ru or similar forums which will bring a barrage of users, some of whom will be real chauvinists, unlike those labeled by AndriyK, and some of those WILL cast the votes for political, rather than encyclopedic reasons. If such users get a taste of things they can do for Ukraine in WP by making it more conforming their views, which you very well know, then myself's, MichaelZ's, Sashazlv's and others' effort will not be sufficient to defend Ukraine-related articles from REAL POV problems. We should then forget about the possibility to have the Ukrainian coverage expanded in any way by any of us in any future because we will all have our hands full with discussions that Ukrainian is not a Little Russian dialect of the Russian language and such.
Again, please feel free to vote but please familiarize yourself with an issue first. Actions like voting have long term consequences. People who voted for Kuchma may have voted just for Russian to be a state language too. Instead they got his regime for 10 years. Similarly, don't make an ignorant vote here. Study the issue and then vote. Thanks, -- Irpen 16:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I've been queitly followling the mess that is currently going on on EN.WP regarding Ukrainian/Russian-related articles and the edit wars that have been going back and forth between two strong ideologies. One group believes that using Russian transliteration for places, events and names in present-day Ukraine is incorrect. The other firmly stands on using the "popular name" that is most widely used in the world. Both have fair points, and I am not going to really support one or the other because of the sad state this debate has now reached. I understand both viewpoints. I tend to believe that an encyclopedia should remain neutral (as this is one of the most important factors for establishing credibility). However, I also tend to believe that it is more correct to use the official names as designated by the "owner" or "authority" (for example, using Kyiv instead of Kiev in accordance to Ukrainian government laws on the subject). However, I am not one to think of this as serious enough to spend all my time arguing and changing things. To be honest, does it really matter? Anyone seriously studying the subject will no doubt have a better understanding than just "Kyiv is official, Kiev is popular". Anyone just looking up information for general knowledge does not necessarily need to know the most correct way. You may argue against this. But I think it is more important to give just factual information rather than give them a view of how to spell things. All versions should be discussed in the article, with an explanation given as to why one way was chosen over the other. Regardless, it seems this has fully gotten out of hand. The only possible way to establish some kind of stability at this point is to establish a set of guidelines for naming things that both parties can agree on. I recommend that before continuing to edit articles, we all come together and establish some hard rules on the subject.
Maybe this is not the correct place to post this message, but it seems this is one of the hot points of the arguments. So feel free to move this whereever. It's up to you guys! Keep in mind that by just continuing this battle, you are making great fools of yourselves to the rest of the WP community (Kiev has justly been called one of the lamest edit wars).
I am not going to make comments who's right and who's wrong, because everyone has good points. I will be followig this, and hopefully we will be able to come up with something that will end this once and for all. I do realize how difficult it would be, with such a complicated history of the places and the people. But we can do it. Further, I think it would be very important to make the rules be accepting of later changes (in case someone comes and has a different view that is just as accurate).
Thank you. mno 12:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus, I agree that this became ugly. I have no problem with protecting all articles which AndriyK messes up with his anachronistic name changes. AndriyK is ignoring the argument at Talk:Chernihiv#Britannica.27s_use_in_historical_context. This is a representative list of his contributions. Please note that this and the other article were renamed using the vote fraud described above and also at AndriyK's talk page. I am prepared to go for arbitration against AndriyK since all other attempts to talk to him by several people where tried, much more than the RfC would bring. -- Irpen 20:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think AndriyK should be banned. Less restrictive limits on his behaviour is necessary, however, such as prohinition to move articles on his own, to create redirects, personal attacks probation, incuding using of the internet forums for that, and limiting a number of reverts for him from 3 to one per 24 hr period. He is permanently one step under 3RR at several articles. -- Irpen 23:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I propose a revote, this time without interference from a foreign, unrelated site. Kuban kazak 21:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe the problem can be solved by simply moving the article to Oleg Sviatoslavich. Kazak 04:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Note:the name of this article is wrong.De facto there are two princes whose name is Oleg Sviatoslavich, and both of them are rulers of Chernihiv. And it is very wrong to redirect Oleg Sviatoslavich to this article, because there are four (or for someone's opinion, five) rulers who were of this name. All of them are listed in Chinese Wikipedia, see here( Oleg Sviatoslavich).-- Douglasfrankfort 07:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We could game the system by having an Oleg Sviatoslavich and an Oleg Svyatoslavich. If we need more of them we can use Olehs. But remember the create a redirect page which explains who each person is. Cossack 01:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Em... I think the disambigtion page should comprise:
And maybe there are more. -- Douglasfrankfort ( talk to me)
Yes, I will agree, although make sure it is Chernigov!-- Kuban Cossack 09:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Special cases? Well this one is one of them. Quoting from: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/AndriyK
This was clearly a violation of ArbCom's ruling. -- Irpen 08:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I wonder how would you classify article's name change by Kuban kazak? I enjoy reading the summary he provided. Which page move, by AndriyK, or by Kuban kazak was controversial? KPbIC 09:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)