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A photo of the Great Auditorium would be nice, as would one of the tent homes.-- Srleffler 05:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
images added JGHowes talk - 19:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone added updated info from 2002. I'm assuming that it's correct, but changing the wording to reflect that ost of the data is from 2000. Rich Farmbrough 21:14 3 July 2006 (GMT).
There is an article with considerable detail in the current edition of the tricity news. Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand (I left it on my porch in OG) and their website doesn't contain searchable archives ( [1]) doesn't contain a searchable archive.
As far as adding this to the article is concerned, the part that really requires solid, reliable sources (that is, mainstream books or major newspapers such as the New York Times or Philadelphia Inquirer) is attributing Ocean Grove's resurgence in real estate values to him.
If the enthusiasm is trimmed to just state factually Ralph has become an unofficial mascot in recent years and was depicted on the beach badge by the OGCMA, or something along those lines, that probably would pass muster with the editors here. Also, is there a better image? The one uploaded is very grainy. JGHowes talk - 19:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand your points. As to whether he exists, the fact that the governing body of the town placed him on their beach badge should answer that question.
I guess I also have some quesions:
In the “Today” section of thecurrent Ocean Grove article, it states:
“Beginning in the 1990s and continuing to the present, Ocean Grove has experienced a dramatic increase in property values.” This has not been the case since early last year. Anyone reading a newspaper is aware of real estate values declining. And they began declining in Ocean Grove around this time, also (as they did throughout much of NJ). Shouldn’t this be updated to reflect this?
In the same section it also states:
“There has been a considerable revival in the fortunes of the town, leading to a much less depressed community and the restoration of older hotel structures, many of which had deteriorated into Single Room Occupancy ("SRO") quarters.” Isn’t the phrase “a much less depressed community” opinion? I can find no article or reliable reference that makes or confirms that statement. It’s not in the article listed as a reference for the paragraph that follows this one on the Ocean Grove page (Michelle Sahn, "New life at old hotel site", Asbury Park Press, March 23, 2006). Therefore shouldn’t that statement be eliminated, as it’s opinion and not verifiable? Bilbobag ( talk) 11:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add the following to the site, but would like your opinion first: Bilbobag ( talk) 17:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
To many “Grovers”, the destruction of the Ocean Grove Fishing Pier and boardwalk by the northeast winter storm of 1992, was devastating (Footnote to be added referencing A POINT OF PRIDE SWEPT OFF BY STORM - OCEAN GROVE LOST MORE THAN TIMBER. THE PIER WAS PART OF ITS LIFE. Source: William R. Macklin, Published December 14, 1992, Page S01, Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA)) With the town's spirits at an all time low, late one night two friends, Carol and Bob, climbed a 20' high piling and erected a dummy of a fisherman. Named "Ralph", an acronym for Rising Above the Long Pier of Hope, he immediately became a local favorite as he smiled down at beachgoers, and helped buoy the town’s spirits. This was demonstrated later that summer, when his image was used on T-Shirts by The Ocean Grove Fishing Club to help raise funds to rebuild the town’s century old, landmark, fishing pier (photo of t-shirt to be included). When the pier was rebuilt the following year, Ralph was given a permanent perch upon which to sit...and to this day he can be seen sitting there (photo). As an indication of his inspiration and popularity, in 2002, ten years after he was erected, the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association honored Ralph by making him the first fictional character to ever appear on the town’s summer beach badge (photo of beach badge). Bilbobag ( talk) 17:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A landmark of local importance, Ralph the Fisherman was erected on the ruined remains of the Ocean Grove Fishing Pier by local residents. The pier had been destoyed by a winter storm in 1992, and two local residents climbed one of the remaining pylons to place a dummy of a fisherman. The dummy became a local attraction, and when the pier was rebuilt in 1993 the dummy became a permanent fixture on it. Today, Ralph—who's name is an acronym for "Rising Above the Long Pier of Hope"— is an important symbol of the community. Ralph has even become the subject of a children's book.
Thanks for the help and the re-write. I believe a photo of the 2002 beach badge, the first ever in the 100+ year history of this town to include the image of a fictional character, which was issued by a quasi-Governamental organization (The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Assoc.) "clearly shows that he is a symbol of the community." The badge shows his image, The words "Ralph", and the words "Ocean Grove". I'm attaching a copy of the photo here
I have other photos that show him sitting on the fishing pier, as he has for over 17 years, and others showing him numerous of the town's 4th of July parades. In the parades, he is on the float of The Ocean Grove Fishing Club.
Bilbobag ( talk) 23:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tent city should get more coverage as it is unique, interesting, and a possibly useful style of architecture. It should be expanded by a native who can get interior shots too. Winter and Summer shots of the same house. I really think people might find inspiration for their own houses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo8rge ( talk) 00:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this portion is too long and not that historically important to Ocean Grove, to the US or NJ but it really is a store unfolding all over not just Ocean Grove. If it is important maybe it should be combined with an article on gay civil unions, or even get it's own article. Geo8rge ( talk) 00:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
It goes beyond the civil union controversy. Recently the Neptune school graduation ceremony almost didn't happen because of all the religious iconography present inside and outside the auditorium: see http://www.app.com/article/20110525/NJNEWS/305250114/Neptune-ACLU-compromise-high-school-graduation-Great-Auditorium. While looking at the pictures from the Auditorium I felt that the cross outside was aesthetically and architecturally out of place, and wondered whether it was a late addition. The article mentions that the **illuminated** cross was added after the end of 2nd world war. Did a normal cross exist before that date? I was able to find a postcard from 1903 that shows that the cross in the front was originally not there, around the same time when the owners got tax exemption for the boardwalk and beachfront as public venues: see two post cards at middle of page at http://www.cardcow.com/viewall/66106/. There are also several post cards that proof that until around 1945 there was no cross there. My understanding is that with the development of the beachfront into a neighborhood, there was a need for a new church so the auditorium was “adapted” to that use after 50 years of mixed religious/secular use. There is no problem with this history as long as the owners recognize that it is now a church, and refuse doing civil/secular ceremonies in there to avoid going against the Constitution. 75.50.59.26 ( talk) 14:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Michelle Davidson is an English Channel swimmer. See http://www.dover.uk.com/channelswimming/swimmers which lists Channel Swimmers. As to meeting Wiki requirements, as stated on /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:LISTPEOPLE#Lists_of_people, "A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. An exception to this requirement may be made if the person is famous for a specific event, the notability requirement need not be met''Italic text. If a person in a list does not have a Wikipedia article about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to: a) establish their membership in the list's group; and b) to establish their notability on either BLP1E or BIO1E. The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources.
Based on this Ms. Davidson is famous for not just a single specific event, (being one of only 1341 people in the history of the world, who has swam the English Channel). She is also notable for being one of only 84 swimmers to have accomplished the Triple Crown of swimming 1) swimming the 21 miles across the English Channel, 2) swimming 20.2 miles across the Cataline Channel in southern CA, and 3) swimming 28.5 miles around the island of Manhattan (see http://www.triplecrownofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/08/triple-crown-of-open-water-swimming.html and http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/OpenWater/30346.asp). These are 3 notable accomplishments, the most well known being the English Channel swim. Each of these is linked to an article or reliable source. Thus she meets Wiki's exception. Second since she is being included in a list of Notable People, does not need an article about them.
I would therefore include her in the list. If you find this objectionable, I would then offer to include her as a nationaly known US swimmer, whose accomplishments (in addition to the 3 mentioned above) include more than 23 wins in swimming events, winning the US Lifeguard Association's "Iron Woman" competition, and numerous other swimming and/or surf kayaking awards over the past 18 years. I'll await comments before making any changes. Bilbobag ( talk) 21:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
9 paragraphs for one court case is too much. This section needs to be considerably tightened up. It is written like a full newspaper article, covering every detail. We need to have an overview with the core facts. I think that can reasonably be accomplished in less than 9 paragraphs. My edits have been reverted. Would someone else like to suggest a compromise edit? Safehaven86 ( talk) 20:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't edit-war. This violates BRD. MilesMoney ( talk) 03:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
You're not just violating BRD, you're at 3RR:
I will be forced to report you if you revert again. MilesMoney ( talk) 03:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Two stories way more important: 1. OGCMA did get millions from FEMA in July 2014 for Sandy damage (after they raised money for this in 2013). 2. There have been 4 major fires since 2010, destroying several buildings "under renovation" and homes and condos nearby, literally leaving dozens of people homeless. I suspect that some people with a gay agenda (who probably don't even live in town) want to over-emphasize the civil union issue and want people to believe that there is a huge gay-lesbian population in Ocean Grove (really quite small). Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 23:34, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I personally agree with Safehaven86's edits. The section as it was before was a tad too long, not to mention that all the extra statements were unsourced. Also, the fact that that case had so much information while the other cases mentioned didn't have nearly as much info kind of wanders into WP:UNDUE territory. If anyone really thinks the information about the latter case needs to be expanded, try creating a separate article about it. Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 07:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC) |
I added information about 4 major fires since 2010. Why did you cut it out alan? surfer Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 20:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Alansohn eliminated all my CORRECT info on how og GOT FEMA money in 2014 and how 4 fires that I dated and gave details are MUCH worse to homeowners than what Sandy did to boardwalk. Everyone who lives in og knows this. This fool apparently has no clue. Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 22:01, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Perdita Buchan? David Spelman? Are they notable? Did they live in OG for more than 5 minutes? Are they living in OG now? Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 00:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
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A photo of the Great Auditorium would be nice, as would one of the tent homes.-- Srleffler 05:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
images added JGHowes talk - 19:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone added updated info from 2002. I'm assuming that it's correct, but changing the wording to reflect that ost of the data is from 2000. Rich Farmbrough 21:14 3 July 2006 (GMT).
There is an article with considerable detail in the current edition of the tricity news. Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand (I left it on my porch in OG) and their website doesn't contain searchable archives ( [1]) doesn't contain a searchable archive.
As far as adding this to the article is concerned, the part that really requires solid, reliable sources (that is, mainstream books or major newspapers such as the New York Times or Philadelphia Inquirer) is attributing Ocean Grove's resurgence in real estate values to him.
If the enthusiasm is trimmed to just state factually Ralph has become an unofficial mascot in recent years and was depicted on the beach badge by the OGCMA, or something along those lines, that probably would pass muster with the editors here. Also, is there a better image? The one uploaded is very grainy. JGHowes talk - 19:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand your points. As to whether he exists, the fact that the governing body of the town placed him on their beach badge should answer that question.
I guess I also have some quesions:
In the “Today” section of thecurrent Ocean Grove article, it states:
“Beginning in the 1990s and continuing to the present, Ocean Grove has experienced a dramatic increase in property values.” This has not been the case since early last year. Anyone reading a newspaper is aware of real estate values declining. And they began declining in Ocean Grove around this time, also (as they did throughout much of NJ). Shouldn’t this be updated to reflect this?
In the same section it also states:
“There has been a considerable revival in the fortunes of the town, leading to a much less depressed community and the restoration of older hotel structures, many of which had deteriorated into Single Room Occupancy ("SRO") quarters.” Isn’t the phrase “a much less depressed community” opinion? I can find no article or reliable reference that makes or confirms that statement. It’s not in the article listed as a reference for the paragraph that follows this one on the Ocean Grove page (Michelle Sahn, "New life at old hotel site", Asbury Park Press, March 23, 2006). Therefore shouldn’t that statement be eliminated, as it’s opinion and not verifiable? Bilbobag ( talk) 11:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add the following to the site, but would like your opinion first: Bilbobag ( talk) 17:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
To many “Grovers”, the destruction of the Ocean Grove Fishing Pier and boardwalk by the northeast winter storm of 1992, was devastating (Footnote to be added referencing A POINT OF PRIDE SWEPT OFF BY STORM - OCEAN GROVE LOST MORE THAN TIMBER. THE PIER WAS PART OF ITS LIFE. Source: William R. Macklin, Published December 14, 1992, Page S01, Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA)) With the town's spirits at an all time low, late one night two friends, Carol and Bob, climbed a 20' high piling and erected a dummy of a fisherman. Named "Ralph", an acronym for Rising Above the Long Pier of Hope, he immediately became a local favorite as he smiled down at beachgoers, and helped buoy the town’s spirits. This was demonstrated later that summer, when his image was used on T-Shirts by The Ocean Grove Fishing Club to help raise funds to rebuild the town’s century old, landmark, fishing pier (photo of t-shirt to be included). When the pier was rebuilt the following year, Ralph was given a permanent perch upon which to sit...and to this day he can be seen sitting there (photo). As an indication of his inspiration and popularity, in 2002, ten years after he was erected, the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association honored Ralph by making him the first fictional character to ever appear on the town’s summer beach badge (photo of beach badge). Bilbobag ( talk) 17:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A landmark of local importance, Ralph the Fisherman was erected on the ruined remains of the Ocean Grove Fishing Pier by local residents. The pier had been destoyed by a winter storm in 1992, and two local residents climbed one of the remaining pylons to place a dummy of a fisherman. The dummy became a local attraction, and when the pier was rebuilt in 1993 the dummy became a permanent fixture on it. Today, Ralph—who's name is an acronym for "Rising Above the Long Pier of Hope"— is an important symbol of the community. Ralph has even become the subject of a children's book.
Thanks for the help and the re-write. I believe a photo of the 2002 beach badge, the first ever in the 100+ year history of this town to include the image of a fictional character, which was issued by a quasi-Governamental organization (The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Assoc.) "clearly shows that he is a symbol of the community." The badge shows his image, The words "Ralph", and the words "Ocean Grove". I'm attaching a copy of the photo here
I have other photos that show him sitting on the fishing pier, as he has for over 17 years, and others showing him numerous of the town's 4th of July parades. In the parades, he is on the float of The Ocean Grove Fishing Club.
Bilbobag ( talk) 23:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tent city should get more coverage as it is unique, interesting, and a possibly useful style of architecture. It should be expanded by a native who can get interior shots too. Winter and Summer shots of the same house. I really think people might find inspiration for their own houses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo8rge ( talk) 00:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this portion is too long and not that historically important to Ocean Grove, to the US or NJ but it really is a store unfolding all over not just Ocean Grove. If it is important maybe it should be combined with an article on gay civil unions, or even get it's own article. Geo8rge ( talk) 00:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
It goes beyond the civil union controversy. Recently the Neptune school graduation ceremony almost didn't happen because of all the religious iconography present inside and outside the auditorium: see http://www.app.com/article/20110525/NJNEWS/305250114/Neptune-ACLU-compromise-high-school-graduation-Great-Auditorium. While looking at the pictures from the Auditorium I felt that the cross outside was aesthetically and architecturally out of place, and wondered whether it was a late addition. The article mentions that the **illuminated** cross was added after the end of 2nd world war. Did a normal cross exist before that date? I was able to find a postcard from 1903 that shows that the cross in the front was originally not there, around the same time when the owners got tax exemption for the boardwalk and beachfront as public venues: see two post cards at middle of page at http://www.cardcow.com/viewall/66106/. There are also several post cards that proof that until around 1945 there was no cross there. My understanding is that with the development of the beachfront into a neighborhood, there was a need for a new church so the auditorium was “adapted” to that use after 50 years of mixed religious/secular use. There is no problem with this history as long as the owners recognize that it is now a church, and refuse doing civil/secular ceremonies in there to avoid going against the Constitution. 75.50.59.26 ( talk) 14:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Michelle Davidson is an English Channel swimmer. See http://www.dover.uk.com/channelswimming/swimmers which lists Channel Swimmers. As to meeting Wiki requirements, as stated on /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:LISTPEOPLE#Lists_of_people, "A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. An exception to this requirement may be made if the person is famous for a specific event, the notability requirement need not be met''Italic text. If a person in a list does not have a Wikipedia article about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to: a) establish their membership in the list's group; and b) to establish their notability on either BLP1E or BIO1E. The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources.
Based on this Ms. Davidson is famous for not just a single specific event, (being one of only 1341 people in the history of the world, who has swam the English Channel). She is also notable for being one of only 84 swimmers to have accomplished the Triple Crown of swimming 1) swimming the 21 miles across the English Channel, 2) swimming 20.2 miles across the Cataline Channel in southern CA, and 3) swimming 28.5 miles around the island of Manhattan (see http://www.triplecrownofopenwaterswimming.com/2010/08/triple-crown-of-open-water-swimming.html and http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/OpenWater/30346.asp). These are 3 notable accomplishments, the most well known being the English Channel swim. Each of these is linked to an article or reliable source. Thus she meets Wiki's exception. Second since she is being included in a list of Notable People, does not need an article about them.
I would therefore include her in the list. If you find this objectionable, I would then offer to include her as a nationaly known US swimmer, whose accomplishments (in addition to the 3 mentioned above) include more than 23 wins in swimming events, winning the US Lifeguard Association's "Iron Woman" competition, and numerous other swimming and/or surf kayaking awards over the past 18 years. I'll await comments before making any changes. Bilbobag ( talk) 21:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
9 paragraphs for one court case is too much. This section needs to be considerably tightened up. It is written like a full newspaper article, covering every detail. We need to have an overview with the core facts. I think that can reasonably be accomplished in less than 9 paragraphs. My edits have been reverted. Would someone else like to suggest a compromise edit? Safehaven86 ( talk) 20:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't edit-war. This violates BRD. MilesMoney ( talk) 03:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
You're not just violating BRD, you're at 3RR:
I will be forced to report you if you revert again. MilesMoney ( talk) 03:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Two stories way more important: 1. OGCMA did get millions from FEMA in July 2014 for Sandy damage (after they raised money for this in 2013). 2. There have been 4 major fires since 2010, destroying several buildings "under renovation" and homes and condos nearby, literally leaving dozens of people homeless. I suspect that some people with a gay agenda (who probably don't even live in town) want to over-emphasize the civil union issue and want people to believe that there is a huge gay-lesbian population in Ocean Grove (really quite small). Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 23:34, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I personally agree with Safehaven86's edits. The section as it was before was a tad too long, not to mention that all the extra statements were unsourced. Also, the fact that that case had so much information while the other cases mentioned didn't have nearly as much info kind of wanders into WP:UNDUE territory. If anyone really thinks the information about the latter case needs to be expanded, try creating a separate article about it. Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 07:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC) |
I added information about 4 major fires since 2010. Why did you cut it out alan? surfer Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 20:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Alansohn eliminated all my CORRECT info on how og GOT FEMA money in 2014 and how 4 fires that I dated and gave details are MUCH worse to homeowners than what Sandy did to boardwalk. Everyone who lives in og knows this. This fool apparently has no clue. Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 22:01, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Perdita Buchan? David Spelman? Are they notable? Did they live in OG for more than 5 minutes? Are they living in OG now? Sufferingsurfer ( talk) 00:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
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