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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Colonestarrice ( talk) 08:15, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Jordanian annexation of the West Bank → Jordanian rule of the West Bank – More than a renaming, I propose an expansion of the scope of this article. It was previously named "Jordanian occupation of the West Bank", which didn't make sense since the occupation lasted 1948-1950, but the entirety of Jordanian presence lasted 1948-1967, so it was renamed "Jordanian annexation of the West Bank". However, this also doesn't really make sense, as it limited the scope of the article to the 1950 annexation act. So, instead of creating a new article dealing with the scope of the Jordanian 1948-1967 presence, why not just rename this article to "Jordanian rule of the West Bank", where the 1950 act of annexation would have a dedicated and detailed section. It should be noted that this would prove a controversial renaming/repurposing, as it would lent arguments to rename Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem. So, it might be better after all to create a new article named "Jordanian rule of the West Bank" instead. These are two options the discussion should focus on. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
There are many things that could be included in such article. 1948 Abdullah-Meir collusion, 1953 Qibya massacre, 1956 Suleiman Nabulsi democratically elected government, 1958 Arab Federation with Iraq, 1964 PLO formation, 1966 Samu incident, 1967 Six Day War, even the 1959-1966 Miss Jordan beauty pageant; maybe also 1988 Jordanian disengagement. Basically a unified history of Jordan and the West Bank. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Shrike for acknowledging good faith. Your revert was also in good faith. [1] The text we are disputing is below:
The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem. All but one of the 35 synagogues in the Old City were destroyed over the course of the next 19 years, either razed or used as stables and chicken coops. Many other historic and religiously significant buildings were replaced by modern structures.
Much of it was added in this edit in 2010, [2] with non-RS sources, and other sources have since been added. But they don’t quite say what it says here. And the “Letter Dated 68/03/05 from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations Addressed to the Secretary-General” is certainly not WP:RS in wikivoice.
A couple of years ago a good exchange of sources on part of the above was held at Talk:Islamization of Jerusalem#Evacuations and Destruction of Synagogues.
The paragraph is not fit for purpose in its current form.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 07:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
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Can someone add a link to Jordan in the first prargraph? thank you! דג ירוק ( talk) 07:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
I have undone four edits by Zero that do not reflect the cited sources.
Here are the main differences: 1) Zero claims at the Jericho Conference, "hundreds of Palestinian notables in the West Bank gathered and accepted Jordanian rule." This makes it seem like a bunch of Palestinians decided among themselves spontaneously to accept Jordanian rule.
1) In fact, as the sources clearly show, King Abdullah carefully invited selected leaders that he knew would endorse him and Jordanian rule. The Conference result was pre-ordained. When an authoritarian monarch who occupies your land invites a selected group of local leaders to endorse him, that is hardly a spontaneous outpouring of support. It should be mentioned in the article that Abdullah convened and chose the participants at the conference.
2) Zero claims that the Arab League "having received assurances from Jordan, resolved to treat the annexed area as being held in trust until the Palestine question was resolved." It sounds like the Arab League was OK with the annexation. That is false.
2) In fact, as the sources clearly show by their own records, The Arab League censured Jordan for its "illegal and void annexation" and decided to treat Jordan's status in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) as no more than that of a "trustee" pending a future settlement. The trusteeship was never a "resolution" of what the Arab League unequivocally considered illegal and void annexation.
3) Zero says the USA accepted the annexation. 3) Sources show the USA never accepted the annexation.
4) Claim of no discrimination against Palestinians under Jordanian-rule of West Bank is simply not reflected in contemporary sources. There were many documented claims of discrimination. GreekParadise ( talk) 18:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Four edits follow the sources. Please do not revert without any source to back it up.
1) The Jericho Conference was convened by King Abdallah of Transjordan. Does anyone seriously dispute this? Because the entire wikipedia article on the Jericho Conference says so and cites sources.
2) The USA never officially legally recognized Jordan's annexation of the West Bank. That one minor diplomat said the de facto status quo was "accepted" while expressly denying the USA gave official legal recognition to it does not make an official legal recognition. When the USA officially legally recognizes something, it says so expressly. As a matter of U.S. domestic law, the Supreme Court has held that “the power to recognize foreign states and governments and their territorial bounds is exclusive to the Presidency.” Zivotofsky v. Kerry, 135 S. Ct. 2076, 2094 (2015). (For example, when the USA legally recognized Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights in 2019, it did so by Presidential Proclamation (9852). Both Trump and Biden said so officially. Not some minor diplomat.) If you can find me a single official statement by then-President Truman or his office or any other White House that unambiguously says the US legally recognized Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, show it. You can't. It didn't happen. And dozens of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sources expressly say it didn't happen. See, e.g., https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/134 https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-jordan-is-palestine-idea-resurfaces-again/ https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/martinkramer/files/the_west_bank_was_annexed_once_before._it_ended_in_regret._.pdf
3) The Arab League unanimously agreed Jordan's annexation was illegal. According to the sources (Benvenisti and two contemporary NYT articles), they censured Jordan and almost expelled it before agreeing to a "long-term postponement" of the problem. Please do not revert to an unsourced POV.
4) The official UN source shows Israel objected to Jordan's admission in 1955. When a contemporary official source says something, it doesn't matter how many uninformed commentators claim the fact didn't happen. There is no source of credibility equal to the contemporary United Nations account as to what happened at the United Nations on that day. Does anyone seriously dispute this?
Please do not revert on these four issues until you've specifically addressed these issues on the talk page. GreekParadise ( talk) 22:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
@ GreekParadise: The title of this article is the "Jordanian annexation of the West Bank" which was an administrative mission completed in 1949, impacted in 1967 and abandoned in 1988. Why do you think information belonging to after 1988 relates to 1949-1988? Also your recent changes are in violation of WP:BRD. Makeandtoss ( talk) 16:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jordanian annexation of the West Bank article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Jordanian disengagement from the West Bank was copied or moved into Jordanian annexation of the West Bank with this edit on 22:04, 15 October 2018. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
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![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Colonestarrice ( talk) 08:15, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Jordanian annexation of the West Bank → Jordanian rule of the West Bank – More than a renaming, I propose an expansion of the scope of this article. It was previously named "Jordanian occupation of the West Bank", which didn't make sense since the occupation lasted 1948-1950, but the entirety of Jordanian presence lasted 1948-1967, so it was renamed "Jordanian annexation of the West Bank". However, this also doesn't really make sense, as it limited the scope of the article to the 1950 annexation act. So, instead of creating a new article dealing with the scope of the Jordanian 1948-1967 presence, why not just rename this article to "Jordanian rule of the West Bank", where the 1950 act of annexation would have a dedicated and detailed section. It should be noted that this would prove a controversial renaming/repurposing, as it would lent arguments to rename Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem. So, it might be better after all to create a new article named "Jordanian rule of the West Bank" instead. These are two options the discussion should focus on. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
There are many things that could be included in such article. 1948 Abdullah-Meir collusion, 1953 Qibya massacre, 1956 Suleiman Nabulsi democratically elected government, 1958 Arab Federation with Iraq, 1964 PLO formation, 1966 Samu incident, 1967 Six Day War, even the 1959-1966 Miss Jordan beauty pageant; maybe also 1988 Jordanian disengagement. Basically a unified history of Jordan and the West Bank. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Shrike for acknowledging good faith. Your revert was also in good faith. [1] The text we are disputing is below:
The Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of East Jerusalem. All but one of the 35 synagogues in the Old City were destroyed over the course of the next 19 years, either razed or used as stables and chicken coops. Many other historic and religiously significant buildings were replaced by modern structures.
Much of it was added in this edit in 2010, [2] with non-RS sources, and other sources have since been added. But they don’t quite say what it says here. And the “Letter Dated 68/03/05 from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations Addressed to the Secretary-General” is certainly not WP:RS in wikivoice.
A couple of years ago a good exchange of sources on part of the above was held at Talk:Islamization of Jerusalem#Evacuations and Destruction of Synagogues.
The paragraph is not fit for purpose in its current form.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 07:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Can someone add a link to Jordan in the first prargraph? thank you! דג ירוק ( talk) 07:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
I have undone four edits by Zero that do not reflect the cited sources.
Here are the main differences: 1) Zero claims at the Jericho Conference, "hundreds of Palestinian notables in the West Bank gathered and accepted Jordanian rule." This makes it seem like a bunch of Palestinians decided among themselves spontaneously to accept Jordanian rule.
1) In fact, as the sources clearly show, King Abdullah carefully invited selected leaders that he knew would endorse him and Jordanian rule. The Conference result was pre-ordained. When an authoritarian monarch who occupies your land invites a selected group of local leaders to endorse him, that is hardly a spontaneous outpouring of support. It should be mentioned in the article that Abdullah convened and chose the participants at the conference.
2) Zero claims that the Arab League "having received assurances from Jordan, resolved to treat the annexed area as being held in trust until the Palestine question was resolved." It sounds like the Arab League was OK with the annexation. That is false.
2) In fact, as the sources clearly show by their own records, The Arab League censured Jordan for its "illegal and void annexation" and decided to treat Jordan's status in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) as no more than that of a "trustee" pending a future settlement. The trusteeship was never a "resolution" of what the Arab League unequivocally considered illegal and void annexation.
3) Zero says the USA accepted the annexation. 3) Sources show the USA never accepted the annexation.
4) Claim of no discrimination against Palestinians under Jordanian-rule of West Bank is simply not reflected in contemporary sources. There were many documented claims of discrimination. GreekParadise ( talk) 18:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Four edits follow the sources. Please do not revert without any source to back it up.
1) The Jericho Conference was convened by King Abdallah of Transjordan. Does anyone seriously dispute this? Because the entire wikipedia article on the Jericho Conference says so and cites sources.
2) The USA never officially legally recognized Jordan's annexation of the West Bank. That one minor diplomat said the de facto status quo was "accepted" while expressly denying the USA gave official legal recognition to it does not make an official legal recognition. When the USA officially legally recognizes something, it says so expressly. As a matter of U.S. domestic law, the Supreme Court has held that “the power to recognize foreign states and governments and their territorial bounds is exclusive to the Presidency.” Zivotofsky v. Kerry, 135 S. Ct. 2076, 2094 (2015). (For example, when the USA legally recognized Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights in 2019, it did so by Presidential Proclamation (9852). Both Trump and Biden said so officially. Not some minor diplomat.) If you can find me a single official statement by then-President Truman or his office or any other White House that unambiguously says the US legally recognized Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, show it. You can't. It didn't happen. And dozens of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sources expressly say it didn't happen. See, e.g., https://ecf.org.il/issues/issue/134 https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-jordan-is-palestine-idea-resurfaces-again/ https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/martinkramer/files/the_west_bank_was_annexed_once_before._it_ended_in_regret._.pdf
3) The Arab League unanimously agreed Jordan's annexation was illegal. According to the sources (Benvenisti and two contemporary NYT articles), they censured Jordan and almost expelled it before agreeing to a "long-term postponement" of the problem. Please do not revert to an unsourced POV.
4) The official UN source shows Israel objected to Jordan's admission in 1955. When a contemporary official source says something, it doesn't matter how many uninformed commentators claim the fact didn't happen. There is no source of credibility equal to the contemporary United Nations account as to what happened at the United Nations on that day. Does anyone seriously dispute this?
Please do not revert on these four issues until you've specifically addressed these issues on the talk page. GreekParadise ( talk) 22:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
@ GreekParadise: The title of this article is the "Jordanian annexation of the West Bank" which was an administrative mission completed in 1949, impacted in 1967 and abandoned in 1988. Why do you think information belonging to after 1988 relates to 1949-1988? Also your recent changes are in violation of WP:BRD. Makeandtoss ( talk) 16:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)