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Oberiko 19:47, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Couple of images from Commons:
Harald Hansen 08:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Is everyone aware of the very detailed Operation Weserübung? These should probably be merged, or have Weserubung reference this. DJ Clayworth 18:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How is the relation between the article Allied campaign in Norway and this? -- Johan Magnus 13:29, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe so as it was one continuous sequence of events. Compare this to the Western Desert Campaign or the Eastern Front where each side made advances and sebsequent counterattacks and you'll see a pretty good similarity. Another thing to consider is that official documentation (including that belonging to the UK government) refers to it as the Norwegian Campaign. Oberiko
No, you're accurate, but every military engagement is done from two different sides, this one really isn't any different. If you're speaking about the original plans (Wilfred and Weserbung), Wilfred was cancelled almost immediately on learning of the invasion and the British spent most of the time counteracting. Oberiko 15:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Oberiko. Good work on the Norwegian Campaign article. Could I get your advice on a couple of points? I recently extended the article on Narvik significantly to discuss allied operations there. However, since the WWII stuff is now 4/5th of the Narvik article I'm not sure if the detail belongs in Narvik or elsewhere. At the moment, the organization of the articles on the Norwegian Campaign is a bit of a mess, there's Norwegian Campaign and then Norwegian campaign which redirects to Allied Campaign in Norway, there is also a separate Battles of Narvik article. I think that Norwegian campaign should redirect to Norwegian Campaign that Allied Campaign in Norway should be merged with Norwegian Campaign and that an article titled Narvik in WWII or something should be created containing Battles of Narvik as well as the text I wrote in Narvik. Do you think this is a good idea?
Also, I'm not sure I agree with your statement on Operation Wilfred that that operation was designed to provoke a German response. In The Gathering Storm Churchill seems to indicate that the purpose was to stop the iron-ore shipments and prevent the Germans from going around the blockade. The primary-source texts Churchill provides support this. Churchill of course is a biased source so I was wondering if you had a particular source that said the intention of the operation was to provoke a German response. Thanks - GabrielF 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just went through the text and cleaned up a few spelling, and punctuation errors that I found, and also rephrased a few of the more awkward sentences. I have a couple of questions though regarding things: I changed "naval landings" to "amphibious landings" at one point, I assumed these are the same thing, but afterwards it occured to me that they might not be, any suggestions? Also, a lot of the dates in the article are ambiguous in terms of years. I know this probably all happened in one year (1940), however I think that the year should be given for the first date in at least every major section - for people (like myself) who have no prior knowledge of things like this, or their timeframe. Additionally, it's frustrating to go straight to, say, the Second Narvik Battle part of the article straight away, and see a date with no year, and have to search all over the rest of the article for the contextual date. -- Lor 08:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There should be a long list of the links within the article put at the end or bottom of the article. There is no way I am going to comb through this. The See also section should be a mega-link farm. I can't find anything in this article. -- McDogm 01:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the merge notice, this article covers the entire campaign, the other one covers just the initial German invasion. Oberiko 15:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The current article contains the number of German occupation forces in Norway in 1944 of 400.000 (!?) While I am not an expert on this myself, I am editing it down to 40.000, as it is just blatantly unreal that you would use half a million men to garrison a country of 4 million (that's like one soldier pr 8 people) or roughly 10% of total German forces. No way. Justpedersen 07:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I see no mention here of the Norwegian resistance, in particular those few Norwegian nationals trained to be commandoes in England and then shipped secretly into Norway. I know that they mostly had limited success, but the Norwegian homegrown resistance, along with the Lapplanders, had what could be described as great success with helping a few of those men to survive and escape to Sweden against enormous odds, among other feats. Is there perhaps a separate page somewhere catering to this side of the Norwegian war experience? Rudy Breteler 01:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the British landing in Norway which liberated most of the country by the end of the war.
SURRENDER?
Under the "Occupation" section it states that "Norway soon surrendered". I was under the impression that there never was a surrender as the Norwegian Government in Exile was formed. Can anyone clarify this point? rturus 17:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
TO CLARIFY THE ABOVE^^ The Official Government of Norway under Vidkun Quisling following the flight of King Hakkon officially surrendered to Germany, However the rightful government, the one recognized by the Allies, Hakkon's government, never officially surrendered. That government moved to the north and continued resistance. Also, i find it interesting that no one has mentioned in the article the name of the cruiser lost by the Kriegsmarine, the Blucher, and even more surprising is that the Altmark Incident was not mentioned, even as it took place in the same theater of operations. Tommy G 19:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
My Mistake There is an Altmark Section, Apologies
I would just like to mention that the list of Royal Norwegian Navy losses in the Analysis section is dreadfully incomplete. The source used there is uboat.net which has no overview whatsoever of the RNoN during the campaign. The losses were far greater that the impression given here. I have sources to correct this information and will get working on it as soon as I have sufficient spare time. Manxruler 00:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The lead into the article needs to be balanced a little. As I understand it, the British were equally as intent, as were the Germans, to occupy Norway. And in fact, the actions of the Germans pre-empted the British plan to do so. Also, if the losses and minuses of the German operation are to remain in the lead, the losses of the British should also be included. The other possibility is shortening the lead, and placing this information in the appropriate sections of the article. Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong but Poland did not exist in 1940. Polish military was destroyed by Nazi Germany, Polish government and political elite packed its bags in a hurry and ran across the border and territory that used to be Poland was completely occupied by Nazi Germany and USSR in 1939-1940. Zealander ( talk) 04:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Strangely, this article hardly mention at all the longest and largest land battle in Norway during the invation, the recapture of Narvik. In contrast, the article states that the Norwegian 6.Division was far to the north to take any part. Wrong, led by Carl Gustav Fleischer, this division was important in the recapture of Narvik by Norwegian, British, French and Polish forces. The Norwegian forces, around 7,000 men, fought the Germans for two months in the mountains and valleys north and east of Narvik. The Germans were pushed back to Narvik. On 28.May 1940, the town was recaptured by allied forces, including Norwegian forces, such as the Hyldmo Battalion. This was the first time in WW2 that the Germans were kicked out of a captured town. Orcaborealis ( talk) 12:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
According to General Maurice Harvey, RAF, "Scandinavian Misadventure", who based his research on documents of the Imperial War Cabinet, it was Winston Churchill who had discussed an invasion of Norway and Sweden with Admiral Pound, and by September 12 had drafted a plan for the invasion to take place in March, and tabled this notion on September 19, 1939, in the War Cabinet. Within two weeks the German Abwehr was aware of this plan and Admiral Raeder informed Hitler of British intentions. Hitler was not interested in countering this move at the time. Only after Raeder submitted data on the impact on German steel production in January of 1940 did Hitler gave the go ahead to thwart the British of invading that neutral country.
On an aside, Churchill in 1947 was convicted of a war crime, just that Raeder served as the stand in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.181.32.219 ( talk) 23:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I quote "By 28 May, the Allies had succeeded in recapturing Narvik from German forces".
The related picture says Allied forces withdrew 2-3. may and Norwegian 6th Div. surrendered 5th of may.
I don't see how it is possible to recapture Narvik from GB, France or Poland... (as they apparently had withdrawn within 3rd of May)
If there is something I misinterpret, then the related picture should definately be moved or swapped with another, to ensure consistency in the timeline.
Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 18:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- Ah thank you Stephen. I feel somewhat idiotic, not knowing my own geography right. I read Narvik where it said Namsos, even though first mentioned is half way to the north from Namsos (and easily recognizeable)! I guess it doesn't change my arguement though, that the section should be rephrased more or less, so thank you for support there:) Oh and I guess it's right to add that the cities are called "Narvik" and "Namsos" :) (not Narvick or Nemsos) :) Or maybe they've got a different English name, which I guess is OK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 21:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Reading the article i found something really odd. The battle box claim that the british suffered over 1856 casualties(not dead,casualties). But only at the sinking of HMS Glorious and 2 of her escort over 1500 british sailors died. If this source its ok, this means that the british suffered less than 300 casualties in ALL the GROUND and AERIAL operations of the campaign , witch its IMPOSSIBLE. Its seems that this number (1856 cas.) should refer to british Land casualties. However this also look a little bit weird since in the battle of Lillehammer over 70% of a batalion was lost as casaulties. Could someone please check for any sources about this casualties. Not only regerding those of the british, the norwegian forces losses should be covered as well, remember that they fought for their country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.118.9.11 ( talk) 21:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear Manxruler, iam the anon editor with the 190.118.9.11 IP. i recieved your message, at my talk page. My edits were unsourced , i admit but since iam new editting templated with ref commands , i found it rather difficult to link them. The sources i used came from the page feldgrau.com. The one regarding the german losses its from www.feldgrau.com/stats.html, this page have a table of the german losses suffered in every campaig including those of the norwegean campaign, check. The edit of the allied losses are from a different page from the site, www.feldgrau.com/norwegean.html, which in the very last part statets that the allies combined suffered 6,100 dead for all causes. I really want to cooperate with the wikipedia, but for some reason i cant create an account. I also need to know the comand to sign my edits on talk pages and discussion pages. Good bye, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.118.9.11 ( talk) 22:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, I just wanted to point out: be careful with bombastic expressions such as "impossible" here. We want it to be as factual as possible I guess :) I can also refer already to this very page: Further up this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 21:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
"The Allies disagreed over the additional Operation Royal Marine, where mines would also be placed in the Rhine River. While the British supported this operation, the French were against it, since they also depended on the Rhine and feared German reprisals on French soil. "
So, in 1940, the French "depended on the Rhine" for what ?? France and Germany were already at war, and even though the war was "phoney" for a while on the Alsatian front, the ability of France to ship barges up or down the Rhine to or from Alsace was already curtailed. Eregli bob ( talk) 10:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I recently attempted some edits to the section on Western Norway, and was met by blanket deletion and scorn in the edit summary fields. I would like to state that my experience of this reaction was that it smacked of article ownership and that the user in question certainly did not assume that I was acting in good faith. This is not the way I hope that wikipedians are generally met when they try contributing to an article they haven't contributed to before. Now, I will assume good faith myself, and assume that the user Manxruler also wants this article to be as good as possible. So I will try to see what arrangement we can reach: From the edit summaries, it seems Manxruler finds it shocking that anyone would care about what a 41 (!) year old book has to say about anything. This is neither here nor there. History does not work that way. A book from 2010 is not automatically better than a book from 1971 on an historical topic, that is just not how history works. I wrote a final paragraph to the Western Norway-section, based on Wilhelm Hansteen's "Operasjonene til lands på Vestlandet og i Hallingdal og Numedal" (1971), which is part of "Krigen i Norge 1940", the 13 volume work that the Norwegian armed forces (Forsvarets krigshistoriske avdeling) published on the events in Norway, using all available military sources, and describing events in great detail. By the summaries, it would seem that Haarr's book is the source of Manxrulers totally alternative paragraph. Now, it is of course the case that Hansteen is not necessary right on all accounts just because his book is extensive. But neither is Haarr necessarily right just because his book is from 2010. If he contradicts Hansteen, Haarr is not necessarily right, he would have to argue why Hansteen's version is wrong.
Manxruler writes that Steffens evacuated his forces to Førde, and deleted the date 28 April. Hansteen writes that the remaining Norwegian forces south of the Sognefjord evacuated north across the fjord on 28 April. They did not go to Førde, but the area Skjolden-Luster-Sogndal. Steffens himself was in Førde, where there were also 500 new troops, who had not been part of the earlier campaign. There was no fighting north of the Sognefjord.
Manxruler (and presumably Haarr) writes that General Ruge's telegram on 30 April told Steffens to evacuate or disband. Hansteen writes, and directly quotes: "For krigføringen som helhet og som grunnlag for landets moralske gjenreisning senere er det ønskelig at tropper som står under Div. sjefen fortsetter striden så lenge og så aktivt som mulig." [For the war effort as a whole, and as a basis for the later moral reconstitution of the country, it is desirable that the Div.commander's troops continue the fight as long and as actively as possible.]
Steffens left for Tromsø (the night 1.-2. May, according to Hansteen), but he did not just leave. He first ordered his troops to be disbanded, order given 1 May 5am. The troops should return home and their weapons be given to the police. His subordinate, Colonel Blom, then informed the Germans, requested that the troops be allowed to return home unmolested, and informed them of where the troops were. The Germans replied that if the Norwegians did not fire, they would not fire. The troops then disbanded, unmolested by the Germans. This is not just "the campaign effectively ending", it is a capitulation. The date of 18 May is a lot later than this, and a lot later than any other sources I've seen states for Norwegian military activity in Southern Norway. If this is correct, there should be more information about it - what happened, where, why is it not more widely known? But it also seems clear that it is not regular military activity, as the Norwegian regular forces in the west, were disbanded on 1 May. Source: Wilhelm Hansteen, "Operasjonene til lands på Vestlandet og i Hallingdal og Numedal", Oslo, 1971, Forsvarets krigshistoriske avdeling, Gyldendal norsk forlag, ISBN 82 05 00121 9, pp. 208-214.
Does Manxruler still insist that this information is "wildly incorrect"? If Haarr has any sources contradicting this account, that would be very interesting, and I would love to know. What are they?-- Barend ( talk) 10:27, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
At what point in the war did the norwegian government cease to be formally neutral, and joined the "allies" ? Eregli bob ( talk) 11:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Few comments as I got reverted:
1)
Template:Infobox_military_conflict: "Ranks and position titles should be omitted."
2) Its not standard practice to list more than 1 flag for commanders who led multinational forces (you can check it from countless of other wikipedia articles).
3) I don't see point including commander who doesn't seem to have made any notable commanding decisions during his 2 day command (or at least his wikipedia biography fails to mention any), but I guess its matter of taste.
--
Staberinde (
talk) 20:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I see the article is locked. Not sure why. Why are many of the British losses not incorporated into the text? Like many naval losses, i.e. the carrier. It makes the article unbalanced. SaintAviator ( talk) 06:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
At over 134k, I would say this article is more than ready to be divvied up.
What do other editors think?
RASAM ( talk) 16:57, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Why is the operation names not included? Every military operation has a code name. For this it was:
1. Plan for the military occupation of Stavanger, Bergen, Trondhjem, and Narvik. The Plan is not put into operation until the Germans have violated Norwegian territory.
2. NAVAL TASKS
(i). Provision of cover and escort for convoys. (ii). The transport in warships of troops to Stavanger, Bergen, and Narvik. (iii). Provision of local naval defence at Narvik.
3. OUTLINE PLAN Plan R.4 is divided into two parts known as STRATFORD and AVONMOUTH.
(a). STRATFORD force consists of two battalions for Stavanger (Red Force), two battalions for Bergen (Blue Force), and one battalion for Trondhjem (Green Force).
(b). AVONMOUTH force – combined British and French force of about 18,000 men.
Scope creep ( talk) 19:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Hitler knew the British intended to invade Norway in an attempt to encircle Germany. They had already begun laying mines in neutral Norwegian waters, which is why he had to invade before the British could seize control of the ports. ( 217.35.237.93 ( talk) 12:50, 28 September 2016 (UTC))
Hans Fredrik Dahl writes about the background for Weserübung (my translation, source: Preface to 9. april by Tamelander & Zetterling, Spartacus 2001):
— Erik Jr. 17:02, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Magne Skodvin writes (my summary): Norwegian military strategy 1937-1940 was based on an assumption that both Britain and Germany would benefit from an occupation of the Stavanger-Bergen area to enforce an embargo on the other. “Nøytralitetsvakt” (protection of Norway’s neutrality) should ensure that the powers did not use Norwegian territory or Norwegian waters for military purposes. The German navy as early as 1937 sketched plans for setting up bases on Norway’s coast. In 1939 Britain also feared that Hitler and Stalin would make a joint attack on Scandinavia. --— Erik Jr. 17:18, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
The USSR was a union of various nations, not a nation in its own right. ( Bndjs ( talk) 18:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC))
The USSR was not a nation, it was a collection of countries. Norway was the single country/nation that resisted a German invasion for the longest period of time. ( 2A00:23C4:6388:7300:9466:24C7:CE39:69D9 ( talk) 19:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC))
Plan R4 now features prominently in the article lead, this may exaggerate the importance of R4. --— Erik Jr. 15:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Closing discussion initiated by banned User:HarveyCarter. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The British invaded Norway first in 1940. By the time the Germans invaded the Royal Navy was already laying mines in neutral Norwegian waters. (13:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.59.143 ( talk)
Plan R 4 had got to be mentioned in the lede as it is why Germany invaded Norway. The British had previously planned to invade Norway during the Winter War. In May 1940 the British also invaded neutral Iceland. ( 31.49.209.119 ( talk) 18:13, 10 June 2019 (UTC))
While facts about the actual operations are not disputed, the background to the German invasion is complex and an entirely different discussion, and remains a topic for research by historians. Britain and Germany made paralell plans at about the same time (from late 1939) for possible operations in Norway and Sweden. Norway's neutrality was violated by both parties. It is entirely possible that Britain would have made a preemptive occupation of all or parts of Norway (and Sweden), as Britain did in Iceland. The British occupation of Iceland was friendly and tacitly welcomed. Norway was officially neutral, but tacitly leaning towards Britain so the allied effort to support Norway's defense began without a formal decision or agreement. So Norway remained officialy netural until 1941 or 1942. But Allied troops landed in Norway several days after the German invasion, so that point is not open for discussion. — Erik Jr. 20:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
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I’ve fully protected the page to allow time to discuss without any further disruption to the page. I firmly believe the IPs 31.49.209.119 ( talk · contribs) and 86.160.157.178 ( talk · contribs) are the same editor and therefore the warning I gave to 31.49.209.119 applies to both these addresses. It must be noted that reliable sources are required to effect a substantial change to the generally “stable" text on this article. Not to mention editors must be editing neutrally without an agenda that affects the facts or quality of the article. Everyone is reminded to consider WP:DR to assist in concluding this issue. Hopefully this is resolved in the few days before protection ends, but note that any further evidence of multiple accounts being used to sway consensus or edit the article will result in immediate blocking and potential other sanctions for that user. N.J.A. | talk 20:12, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:36, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The Holocaust in Norway says 742 Jews were murdered in the concentration camps, but this article says only 535 Norwegian civilians were killed. How does that add up? - 212.251.181.252 ( talk) 13:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
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Oberiko 19:47, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Couple of images from Commons:
Harald Hansen 08:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Is everyone aware of the very detailed Operation Weserübung? These should probably be merged, or have Weserubung reference this. DJ Clayworth 18:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How is the relation between the article Allied campaign in Norway and this? -- Johan Magnus 13:29, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe so as it was one continuous sequence of events. Compare this to the Western Desert Campaign or the Eastern Front where each side made advances and sebsequent counterattacks and you'll see a pretty good similarity. Another thing to consider is that official documentation (including that belonging to the UK government) refers to it as the Norwegian Campaign. Oberiko
No, you're accurate, but every military engagement is done from two different sides, this one really isn't any different. If you're speaking about the original plans (Wilfred and Weserbung), Wilfred was cancelled almost immediately on learning of the invasion and the British spent most of the time counteracting. Oberiko 15:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Oberiko. Good work on the Norwegian Campaign article. Could I get your advice on a couple of points? I recently extended the article on Narvik significantly to discuss allied operations there. However, since the WWII stuff is now 4/5th of the Narvik article I'm not sure if the detail belongs in Narvik or elsewhere. At the moment, the organization of the articles on the Norwegian Campaign is a bit of a mess, there's Norwegian Campaign and then Norwegian campaign which redirects to Allied Campaign in Norway, there is also a separate Battles of Narvik article. I think that Norwegian campaign should redirect to Norwegian Campaign that Allied Campaign in Norway should be merged with Norwegian Campaign and that an article titled Narvik in WWII or something should be created containing Battles of Narvik as well as the text I wrote in Narvik. Do you think this is a good idea?
Also, I'm not sure I agree with your statement on Operation Wilfred that that operation was designed to provoke a German response. In The Gathering Storm Churchill seems to indicate that the purpose was to stop the iron-ore shipments and prevent the Germans from going around the blockade. The primary-source texts Churchill provides support this. Churchill of course is a biased source so I was wondering if you had a particular source that said the intention of the operation was to provoke a German response. Thanks - GabrielF 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I just went through the text and cleaned up a few spelling, and punctuation errors that I found, and also rephrased a few of the more awkward sentences. I have a couple of questions though regarding things: I changed "naval landings" to "amphibious landings" at one point, I assumed these are the same thing, but afterwards it occured to me that they might not be, any suggestions? Also, a lot of the dates in the article are ambiguous in terms of years. I know this probably all happened in one year (1940), however I think that the year should be given for the first date in at least every major section - for people (like myself) who have no prior knowledge of things like this, or their timeframe. Additionally, it's frustrating to go straight to, say, the Second Narvik Battle part of the article straight away, and see a date with no year, and have to search all over the rest of the article for the contextual date. -- Lor 08:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There should be a long list of the links within the article put at the end or bottom of the article. There is no way I am going to comb through this. The See also section should be a mega-link farm. I can't find anything in this article. -- McDogm 01:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the merge notice, this article covers the entire campaign, the other one covers just the initial German invasion. Oberiko 15:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The current article contains the number of German occupation forces in Norway in 1944 of 400.000 (!?) While I am not an expert on this myself, I am editing it down to 40.000, as it is just blatantly unreal that you would use half a million men to garrison a country of 4 million (that's like one soldier pr 8 people) or roughly 10% of total German forces. No way. Justpedersen 07:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I see no mention here of the Norwegian resistance, in particular those few Norwegian nationals trained to be commandoes in England and then shipped secretly into Norway. I know that they mostly had limited success, but the Norwegian homegrown resistance, along with the Lapplanders, had what could be described as great success with helping a few of those men to survive and escape to Sweden against enormous odds, among other feats. Is there perhaps a separate page somewhere catering to this side of the Norwegian war experience? Rudy Breteler 01:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the British landing in Norway which liberated most of the country by the end of the war.
SURRENDER?
Under the "Occupation" section it states that "Norway soon surrendered". I was under the impression that there never was a surrender as the Norwegian Government in Exile was formed. Can anyone clarify this point? rturus 17:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
TO CLARIFY THE ABOVE^^ The Official Government of Norway under Vidkun Quisling following the flight of King Hakkon officially surrendered to Germany, However the rightful government, the one recognized by the Allies, Hakkon's government, never officially surrendered. That government moved to the north and continued resistance. Also, i find it interesting that no one has mentioned in the article the name of the cruiser lost by the Kriegsmarine, the Blucher, and even more surprising is that the Altmark Incident was not mentioned, even as it took place in the same theater of operations. Tommy G 19:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
My Mistake There is an Altmark Section, Apologies
I would just like to mention that the list of Royal Norwegian Navy losses in the Analysis section is dreadfully incomplete. The source used there is uboat.net which has no overview whatsoever of the RNoN during the campaign. The losses were far greater that the impression given here. I have sources to correct this information and will get working on it as soon as I have sufficient spare time. Manxruler 00:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The lead into the article needs to be balanced a little. As I understand it, the British were equally as intent, as were the Germans, to occupy Norway. And in fact, the actions of the Germans pre-empted the British plan to do so. Also, if the losses and minuses of the German operation are to remain in the lead, the losses of the British should also be included. The other possibility is shortening the lead, and placing this information in the appropriate sections of the article. Dr. Dan ( talk) 23:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong but Poland did not exist in 1940. Polish military was destroyed by Nazi Germany, Polish government and political elite packed its bags in a hurry and ran across the border and territory that used to be Poland was completely occupied by Nazi Germany and USSR in 1939-1940. Zealander ( talk) 04:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Strangely, this article hardly mention at all the longest and largest land battle in Norway during the invation, the recapture of Narvik. In contrast, the article states that the Norwegian 6.Division was far to the north to take any part. Wrong, led by Carl Gustav Fleischer, this division was important in the recapture of Narvik by Norwegian, British, French and Polish forces. The Norwegian forces, around 7,000 men, fought the Germans for two months in the mountains and valleys north and east of Narvik. The Germans were pushed back to Narvik. On 28.May 1940, the town was recaptured by allied forces, including Norwegian forces, such as the Hyldmo Battalion. This was the first time in WW2 that the Germans were kicked out of a captured town. Orcaborealis ( talk) 12:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
According to General Maurice Harvey, RAF, "Scandinavian Misadventure", who based his research on documents of the Imperial War Cabinet, it was Winston Churchill who had discussed an invasion of Norway and Sweden with Admiral Pound, and by September 12 had drafted a plan for the invasion to take place in March, and tabled this notion on September 19, 1939, in the War Cabinet. Within two weeks the German Abwehr was aware of this plan and Admiral Raeder informed Hitler of British intentions. Hitler was not interested in countering this move at the time. Only after Raeder submitted data on the impact on German steel production in January of 1940 did Hitler gave the go ahead to thwart the British of invading that neutral country.
On an aside, Churchill in 1947 was convicted of a war crime, just that Raeder served as the stand in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.181.32.219 ( talk) 23:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I quote "By 28 May, the Allies had succeeded in recapturing Narvik from German forces".
The related picture says Allied forces withdrew 2-3. may and Norwegian 6th Div. surrendered 5th of may.
I don't see how it is possible to recapture Narvik from GB, France or Poland... (as they apparently had withdrawn within 3rd of May)
If there is something I misinterpret, then the related picture should definately be moved or swapped with another, to ensure consistency in the timeline.
Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 18:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- Ah thank you Stephen. I feel somewhat idiotic, not knowing my own geography right. I read Narvik where it said Namsos, even though first mentioned is half way to the north from Namsos (and easily recognizeable)! I guess it doesn't change my arguement though, that the section should be rephrased more or less, so thank you for support there:) Oh and I guess it's right to add that the cities are called "Narvik" and "Namsos" :) (not Narvick or Nemsos) :) Or maybe they've got a different English name, which I guess is OK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 21:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Reading the article i found something really odd. The battle box claim that the british suffered over 1856 casualties(not dead,casualties). But only at the sinking of HMS Glorious and 2 of her escort over 1500 british sailors died. If this source its ok, this means that the british suffered less than 300 casualties in ALL the GROUND and AERIAL operations of the campaign , witch its IMPOSSIBLE. Its seems that this number (1856 cas.) should refer to british Land casualties. However this also look a little bit weird since in the battle of Lillehammer over 70% of a batalion was lost as casaulties. Could someone please check for any sources about this casualties. Not only regerding those of the british, the norwegian forces losses should be covered as well, remember that they fought for their country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.118.9.11 ( talk) 21:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear Manxruler, iam the anon editor with the 190.118.9.11 IP. i recieved your message, at my talk page. My edits were unsourced , i admit but since iam new editting templated with ref commands , i found it rather difficult to link them. The sources i used came from the page feldgrau.com. The one regarding the german losses its from www.feldgrau.com/stats.html, this page have a table of the german losses suffered in every campaig including those of the norwegean campaign, check. The edit of the allied losses are from a different page from the site, www.feldgrau.com/norwegean.html, which in the very last part statets that the allies combined suffered 6,100 dead for all causes. I really want to cooperate with the wikipedia, but for some reason i cant create an account. I also need to know the comand to sign my edits on talk pages and discussion pages. Good bye, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.118.9.11 ( talk) 22:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, I just wanted to point out: be careful with bombastic expressions such as "impossible" here. We want it to be as factual as possible I guess :) I can also refer already to this very page: Further up this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.16.250 ( talk) 21:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
"The Allies disagreed over the additional Operation Royal Marine, where mines would also be placed in the Rhine River. While the British supported this operation, the French were against it, since they also depended on the Rhine and feared German reprisals on French soil. "
So, in 1940, the French "depended on the Rhine" for what ?? France and Germany were already at war, and even though the war was "phoney" for a while on the Alsatian front, the ability of France to ship barges up or down the Rhine to or from Alsace was already curtailed. Eregli bob ( talk) 10:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I recently attempted some edits to the section on Western Norway, and was met by blanket deletion and scorn in the edit summary fields. I would like to state that my experience of this reaction was that it smacked of article ownership and that the user in question certainly did not assume that I was acting in good faith. This is not the way I hope that wikipedians are generally met when they try contributing to an article they haven't contributed to before. Now, I will assume good faith myself, and assume that the user Manxruler also wants this article to be as good as possible. So I will try to see what arrangement we can reach: From the edit summaries, it seems Manxruler finds it shocking that anyone would care about what a 41 (!) year old book has to say about anything. This is neither here nor there. History does not work that way. A book from 2010 is not automatically better than a book from 1971 on an historical topic, that is just not how history works. I wrote a final paragraph to the Western Norway-section, based on Wilhelm Hansteen's "Operasjonene til lands på Vestlandet og i Hallingdal og Numedal" (1971), which is part of "Krigen i Norge 1940", the 13 volume work that the Norwegian armed forces (Forsvarets krigshistoriske avdeling) published on the events in Norway, using all available military sources, and describing events in great detail. By the summaries, it would seem that Haarr's book is the source of Manxrulers totally alternative paragraph. Now, it is of course the case that Hansteen is not necessary right on all accounts just because his book is extensive. But neither is Haarr necessarily right just because his book is from 2010. If he contradicts Hansteen, Haarr is not necessarily right, he would have to argue why Hansteen's version is wrong.
Manxruler writes that Steffens evacuated his forces to Førde, and deleted the date 28 April. Hansteen writes that the remaining Norwegian forces south of the Sognefjord evacuated north across the fjord on 28 April. They did not go to Førde, but the area Skjolden-Luster-Sogndal. Steffens himself was in Førde, where there were also 500 new troops, who had not been part of the earlier campaign. There was no fighting north of the Sognefjord.
Manxruler (and presumably Haarr) writes that General Ruge's telegram on 30 April told Steffens to evacuate or disband. Hansteen writes, and directly quotes: "For krigføringen som helhet og som grunnlag for landets moralske gjenreisning senere er det ønskelig at tropper som står under Div. sjefen fortsetter striden så lenge og så aktivt som mulig." [For the war effort as a whole, and as a basis for the later moral reconstitution of the country, it is desirable that the Div.commander's troops continue the fight as long and as actively as possible.]
Steffens left for Tromsø (the night 1.-2. May, according to Hansteen), but he did not just leave. He first ordered his troops to be disbanded, order given 1 May 5am. The troops should return home and their weapons be given to the police. His subordinate, Colonel Blom, then informed the Germans, requested that the troops be allowed to return home unmolested, and informed them of where the troops were. The Germans replied that if the Norwegians did not fire, they would not fire. The troops then disbanded, unmolested by the Germans. This is not just "the campaign effectively ending", it is a capitulation. The date of 18 May is a lot later than this, and a lot later than any other sources I've seen states for Norwegian military activity in Southern Norway. If this is correct, there should be more information about it - what happened, where, why is it not more widely known? But it also seems clear that it is not regular military activity, as the Norwegian regular forces in the west, were disbanded on 1 May. Source: Wilhelm Hansteen, "Operasjonene til lands på Vestlandet og i Hallingdal og Numedal", Oslo, 1971, Forsvarets krigshistoriske avdeling, Gyldendal norsk forlag, ISBN 82 05 00121 9, pp. 208-214.
Does Manxruler still insist that this information is "wildly incorrect"? If Haarr has any sources contradicting this account, that would be very interesting, and I would love to know. What are they?-- Barend ( talk) 10:27, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
At what point in the war did the norwegian government cease to be formally neutral, and joined the "allies" ? Eregli bob ( talk) 11:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Few comments as I got reverted:
1)
Template:Infobox_military_conflict: "Ranks and position titles should be omitted."
2) Its not standard practice to list more than 1 flag for commanders who led multinational forces (you can check it from countless of other wikipedia articles).
3) I don't see point including commander who doesn't seem to have made any notable commanding decisions during his 2 day command (or at least his wikipedia biography fails to mention any), but I guess its matter of taste.
--
Staberinde (
talk) 20:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I see the article is locked. Not sure why. Why are many of the British losses not incorporated into the text? Like many naval losses, i.e. the carrier. It makes the article unbalanced. SaintAviator ( talk) 06:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
At over 134k, I would say this article is more than ready to be divvied up.
What do other editors think?
RASAM ( talk) 16:57, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Why is the operation names not included? Every military operation has a code name. For this it was:
1. Plan for the military occupation of Stavanger, Bergen, Trondhjem, and Narvik. The Plan is not put into operation until the Germans have violated Norwegian territory.
2. NAVAL TASKS
(i). Provision of cover and escort for convoys. (ii). The transport in warships of troops to Stavanger, Bergen, and Narvik. (iii). Provision of local naval defence at Narvik.
3. OUTLINE PLAN Plan R.4 is divided into two parts known as STRATFORD and AVONMOUTH.
(a). STRATFORD force consists of two battalions for Stavanger (Red Force), two battalions for Bergen (Blue Force), and one battalion for Trondhjem (Green Force).
(b). AVONMOUTH force – combined British and French force of about 18,000 men.
Scope creep ( talk) 19:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Hitler knew the British intended to invade Norway in an attempt to encircle Germany. They had already begun laying mines in neutral Norwegian waters, which is why he had to invade before the British could seize control of the ports. ( 217.35.237.93 ( talk) 12:50, 28 September 2016 (UTC))
Hans Fredrik Dahl writes about the background for Weserübung (my translation, source: Preface to 9. april by Tamelander & Zetterling, Spartacus 2001):
— Erik Jr. 17:02, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Magne Skodvin writes (my summary): Norwegian military strategy 1937-1940 was based on an assumption that both Britain and Germany would benefit from an occupation of the Stavanger-Bergen area to enforce an embargo on the other. “Nøytralitetsvakt” (protection of Norway’s neutrality) should ensure that the powers did not use Norwegian territory or Norwegian waters for military purposes. The German navy as early as 1937 sketched plans for setting up bases on Norway’s coast. In 1939 Britain also feared that Hitler and Stalin would make a joint attack on Scandinavia. --— Erik Jr. 17:18, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
The USSR was a union of various nations, not a nation in its own right. ( Bndjs ( talk) 18:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC))
The USSR was not a nation, it was a collection of countries. Norway was the single country/nation that resisted a German invasion for the longest period of time. ( 2A00:23C4:6388:7300:9466:24C7:CE39:69D9 ( talk) 19:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC))
Plan R4 now features prominently in the article lead, this may exaggerate the importance of R4. --— Erik Jr. 15:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Closing discussion initiated by banned User:HarveyCarter. |
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The British invaded Norway first in 1940. By the time the Germans invaded the Royal Navy was already laying mines in neutral Norwegian waters. (13:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.59.143 ( talk)
Plan R 4 had got to be mentioned in the lede as it is why Germany invaded Norway. The British had previously planned to invade Norway during the Winter War. In May 1940 the British also invaded neutral Iceland. ( 31.49.209.119 ( talk) 18:13, 10 June 2019 (UTC))
While facts about the actual operations are not disputed, the background to the German invasion is complex and an entirely different discussion, and remains a topic for research by historians. Britain and Germany made paralell plans at about the same time (from late 1939) for possible operations in Norway and Sweden. Norway's neutrality was violated by both parties. It is entirely possible that Britain would have made a preemptive occupation of all or parts of Norway (and Sweden), as Britain did in Iceland. The British occupation of Iceland was friendly and tacitly welcomed. Norway was officially neutral, but tacitly leaning towards Britain so the allied effort to support Norway's defense began without a formal decision or agreement. So Norway remained officialy netural until 1941 or 1942. But Allied troops landed in Norway several days after the German invasion, so that point is not open for discussion. — Erik Jr. 20:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
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I’ve fully protected the page to allow time to discuss without any further disruption to the page. I firmly believe the IPs 31.49.209.119 ( talk · contribs) and 86.160.157.178 ( talk · contribs) are the same editor and therefore the warning I gave to 31.49.209.119 applies to both these addresses. It must be noted that reliable sources are required to effect a substantial change to the generally “stable" text on this article. Not to mention editors must be editing neutrally without an agenda that affects the facts or quality of the article. Everyone is reminded to consider WP:DR to assist in concluding this issue. Hopefully this is resolved in the few days before protection ends, but note that any further evidence of multiple accounts being used to sway consensus or edit the article will result in immediate blocking and potential other sanctions for that user. N.J.A. | talk 20:12, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:36, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The Holocaust in Norway says 742 Jews were murdered in the concentration camps, but this article says only 535 Norwegian civilians were killed. How does that add up? - 212.251.181.252 ( talk) 13:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)