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Because several editors have pointed out the lack of references and obvious bias in the essay by Shultz IV, I've moved his content here for now. I've replaced the article page with content from North Korea, Kim Jong-il, and Famine articles, to serve as a stub.
Shultz IV, please re-add any part of the below after you add references and subtract the commentary. thanks. Appleby 15:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
{{references}} {{NPOV}}
The North Korean famine of the 1990s started when Kim Il-sung, an amateur in the ways of farming, ordered more rice to be grown in the hills in many parts of North Korea. He also ordered for trees to be cut down in order to give more room to grow rice.
Farmers and agricultural specialists who knew better realized immediately that the lack of trees and natural vegetation would allow the rainwaters to progress faster towards the streams & rivers, causing them to receive more than they can take downstream, thus allowing them to overflow their banks! This way, floods would occur and the disaster wouldn't only be that, but also famine resulting from drowning the crops.
However, no one would dare challenge the Great Leader! Whoever thought of challenging him feared getting sent to a re-education camp. (Like the Yodok Concentration Camp, for example.) Therefore, they had no choice but to obey his orders.
Sure enough, the floods came and the famine started to sweep the nation. However, North Korean media was still forced to lionize the leaders and their accomplishments, and was completely disallowed from reporting negative happenings in their own country. Nevertheless, Kim Il-sung eventually found out about it. He realized that the only way he would save the country is through Reunification. He started the process moving, but in the wee hours of July 8, 1994, he got in an animated argument with Kim Jong-il, and suddenly collapsed due to a heart attack. If it hadn't have been for that (i.e. if Kim Il-sung checked up on his health earlier), Korea may have been reunified today, with millions of lives saved.
Unfortunately, Kim Il-sung's death halted the reunification process and so the famine was allowed to take its course. Flooding was engulfing significant portions of the nation, and so the crops were not allowed to grow. Due to their ideology of "self-reliance", they would not buy food from any neighboring countries nor ask for help in the get-go. As a result, 200,000-1.5 million North Koreans are estimated to have died in what they call the "Arduous March". The Northern provinces of North Korea, that is, North Pyongan, Chagang, Yanggang, and North Hamgyong suffered the most. Pyongyang and all provinces to the south of the capital were spared the brunt of the disaster.
Eventually, they did call the world for disaster relief, and so the Red Cross and the World Food Programme arrived to give assistance. At first, a great portion of the donated food and resources were diverted to their military due to their so called "Military First" policy and the fact that giving them more food & resources would help maintain their loyalty better. However, the aid organizations eventually found out and ensured that the donations only went to where they needed to go.
There was still a shortage of food in some places, and the living conditions worsened as well. Thus, some North Koreans fled the country across the border, often across the Yalu and Tumen Rivers to find more food and a better life. Many stayed in China and even stay in hiding to this day. Many others made the trek to Shenyang and Beijing to South Korean diplomatic compounds to request asylum.
The Communist regime of North Korea is said to have lost the Mandate of Heaven. South Koreans agree, as well as many people around the world. North Koreans may agree also, although they are not free to say so.
There was no "aftermath", people, because it didn't end. Actually it is potentially worse than ever!
Sometimes Wikipedia is a total joke. Articles about some unimportant people are longer than the fate of millions right now. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 08:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"the North estimates its losses at about 2.5 million to 3 million from 1995 to March 1998"
2.5-3 million what? dollars? acres? people? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.14.143.188 (
talk)
22:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I can't belive it is TOTALLY IGNORED. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Pleace use external links I provided while re-writting this joke of an article. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 22:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I have found no explanation in the article about the meaning of the term "Arduous March". The sentence in Schultz IV' commentary above, "As a result, 200,000-1.5 million North Koreans are estimated to have died in what they call the "Arduous March".", is not very enlightening; why was a famine called a march? -- Enaskitis ( talk) 09:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
The list of external links in the article was just ridiculous. Rather than just delete them I am moving them here for future reference: PC78 ( talk) 23:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I was redirected from march of tribulation...what does this mean? surely a reason for the redirect? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.122.13.129 ( talk) 21:40, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
In an attempt to shorten the article Economy of North Korea I have moved 2 sections (black market activities and the Public Distribution System) into this article since they deal directly with the famine. The shortened "crisis" section of the Economy article now is more summarized and has a link to this article. Coinmanj ( talk) 09:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Should a new section be made about the recent deaths that have occurred in the past year or so? There isn't mention of the current estimations in the right info box, as far as the article 'North Korean Famine' is concerned, it ended in 1998. The estimation of 10,000-20,000 deaths is pretty steep, I think it merits its own section seeing how when a small plane crashes with 3 people on board it gets its own article. Thoughts? Johnsmithy678 ( talk) 02:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
YouTube videos speak of desperate measures, such as hunting of small animals like frogs and eating plants such as bark or grass. Also video of the countryside shows a ravaged, yellow countryside. It would be enlightening to read discussion of these developments in this article. Dogru144 ( talk) 07:51, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
This article is starting to sound like rabid western propaganda. Starting with the photos, I bet much of the rest is BS.
PS Where are the NASA photos - I am sure they can fill in the missing years on a day by day basis.
2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E (
talk)
03:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Propaganda should be ashamed of itself when it is so stupid. The deaths vary over such a range you know that no one knows the number - many millions to 240,000. US Census can't even count Americans with great reliability and now we are told they can estimate population in countries they can't even visit - sorry but BS. 240,000 deaths over 8 years (30,000 a year) over a population of 22,000,000 gives 30/22,000 or 3/2,200 - I bet this isn't statistically significant. The larger death estimates appear to well within error ranges of any US government numbers of the US much less N Korea. I love BS but this is too stupid to even laugh at.
2601:181:8301:4510:B182:F9B2:4167:1552 (
talk)
00:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Does the sanctions really help the situation? It is pretty clear that the US/West are trying to overthrow the regime by making the situation even worse. They punish the whole population by doing so and put the blame only on the regime while i think that part of the famine however small or big is to blame on US/West politics. I think there should be a section about that. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/10/10/north-korea-sanctions-punish-the-whole-population/—Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.103.161.92 ( talk) 17:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
This article minimises the impact of the floods (even more so, before I edited it), but most sources say that the floods did have a large impact. (The collapse of the Soviet bloc is also important, of course.) This article mentions economic mismanagement but doesn't explain why this mismanagement would have come to a head in the 1990s.
The citation of Daniel Schwekendiek has been tagged as dubious since 2013. I have located his article, which is based on child height data, and this is the relevant sentence in his conclusion: "Interestingly, the North Korean government's official explanation for the famine—the floods—is not verified here, since the living standards in the previously flood-affected counties were not significantly worse than in the unaffected ones." This assumes that the effect of the floods was localised, which seems to be false. What about flooding of coal mines and damage to hydro-electric dams? The effect of that kind of damage would go across the economy, particularly as it is centralised, and would not necessarily have any impact on the nutrition of nearby children. I will amend the article to reflect what he actually concluded, but I feel the article might be giving undue weight to one study.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Many deaths were related to the cold in winter, but this isn't mentioned.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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The Background section has two paragraphs about famines in the 1950s (the first one associated with the Korean War). I think this is unnecessary and misleading.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:50, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
According to this [2], the quotation came from an article entitled "Chosun's Supreme Power", that wasn't translated into English, and the quotation was: "The path to the revolution is never easy, we might have to go through Arduous March again – in which we only had to eat roots of the grass – and we might have to fight against our enemies all by one’s self". It appears to be a passing comment, the implication of which out of keeping with the general thrust of articles published by Rodong Sinmun [3], which features articles like "Nobody Can Block DPRK's Advance": "High-rise apartment houses will spring up in Ryomyong Street like mushrooms after rain before long through self-reliance and self-development. This represents the mode of the struggle of the Korean people to foil the moves to isolate and stifle the DPRK and bring earlier a rosy future."-- Jack Upland ( talk) 04:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
What is the justification for saying that the famine recommenced in 2002?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:21, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Dr. O Grada has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:
Nobody--repeat, nobody--believes that 3 million died of famine in North Korea in the 1990s. The best guess is probably that by Spoorenberg and Schwekendiek's (cited in fn 7).
Why the 3 million figure became so widely cited is an interesting, separate question. Haggard and Noland, and Becker (all cited here), who gave such a figure credibility as 'regime change' scholars, over-egged the death toll for political reasons. They are given too much respect here.
That there was a crisis and excess mortality is not in doubt. But perhaps the crisis should be seen as a more long-term shift in average mortality than as a famine.
We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.
Dr. O Grada has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:
ExpertIdeasBot ( talk) 12:39, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Census data is the result of current pop + births - deaths. Any data on birth rates. If they fall, the census pop slows down.
2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E (
talk)
03:11, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Hazel Smith comments on the UN Human Rights Report:
Given that Smith's view is backed by several authoritative sources, I think the article should be amended to give a more accurate picture of the current situation. I mean that we should tone down references to starvation, cannibalism etc, and rely on long-term research rather than sensationalist reports.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:35, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Read this article for the current situation. How many millions of poor ( not well feed ) kids does the US have? Andrei Lankov is professor of Korean Studies at Kookmin University, Seoul. He is the author of "The Real North Korea: Life and Politics in the Failed Stalinist Utopia".Read 2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E ( talk) 03:21, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
The following was removed with the edit summary "Citations dont actually say what the poster is claiming":
This is patently untrue. There are a number of citations there, and, while the wording could be modified, the text does reflect the citations. I reinserted the text, but it was removed again with the edit summary "not a usable citation, removed until a relevant one is provided". The UN, a British academic, and a respected analyst of North Korea are not "usable" or "relevant"?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 13:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
References
Hi User:Jack Upland, Thank you for following up the critical issue for the human right. I believe that you have a warm heart for the people in DPRK Goodtiming8871 ( talk) 02:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
I am skeptical of claims by the article according to which North Korea claims millions died in the famine (see [ Estimated number of deaths]). I have searched extensively through North Korean media and web sites and can find no such evidence anywhere in sight. One of the articles cited (see World: Asia-Pacific North Korea 'loses 3 million to famine') gives "North Korean" statistics which were in fact provided by Yonhap (linked to South Korean intelligence and never a reliable source for information on North Korea). I would like to remove this from the article as this is most likely a misquote/distortion by South Korean intelligence. If North Korea has ever claimed anything remotely similar to this, please say where to find it (outside of quotations by Yonhap). There doesn't appear to be a single webpage from North Korea which discusses the alleged mid-to-late 1990's famine (let alone any with figures that inflated).
Philippe Biberson, president of Médecins sans frontières (Doctors Without Borders), said in 1998 that "we don't have any medical data on this country [North Korea], that's why these studies extrapolating from figures taken on a reduced scale are dishonest" and that "in the places I've visited, I do not believe the people die from hunger." (see Corée du Nord: la famine «manipulée»Le président de MSF déplore l'opacité et les contraintes qui entourent la lutte contre la disette. - French original: "On n'a aucune information médicale sur ce pays, c'est pourquoi ces études extrapolant à partir de chiffres pris sur un échantillon réduit sont malhonnêtes" and, also, "Dans les endroits que j'ai visités, je ne pense pas que les gens meurent de faim."). I would like to quote this in the article, but I'm not sure exactly how to do it because it's originally in French - would I simply quote the translation, or provide the original text with it?
Also, another point: the source provided for the claim "Roughly 45% of North Korean children under the age of five are stunted from malnutrition and the population of kotjebi persists." does not actually state 45% of children are stunted, and is sensationalist reporting about young supposed "defectors" whom Laos and North Korea say were actually victims of human trafficking who may have been beaten and forced to convert to Christianity. I have removed it from the article as the citation only discusses "kotjebi" and not the _supposed_ 45% of North Korean children (and what about homeless populations and malnourished children in the developed countries of the world, much richer in terms of average GDP than North Korea - in the United States, just for one example, over 12 million children are food insecure - which amounts to one in six children, if we count children as anyone under 18 - that is "economic mismanagement"). The article also has other claims that I plan to follow up at some point. Incogreader ( talk • contribs) 17:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Thus, barring the possibility of deaths after March 1997 (the alleged famine is said to have been worst in 1997, so this is possible), wouldn't it be more correct to say that North Korea referred to the period of economic difficulty and food shortage as the Arduous March, rather than the "famine" which, according to North Korea seems to be (again, unless they reported such deaths after March 1997) that it never actually happened as claimed, although there was food shortage and things were difficult (backing anecdotal accounts by Biberson of Doctors Without Borders/MSF that he didn't "think that the people die from hunger" in the places he visited, or, the one of Michel Tailhedes, a doctor with the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, who said in 1998 "We've never seen people die from hunger. All we have seen are cases of chronic malnutrition." (French original: «On n'a jamais vu de gens mourir de faim. Tout ce qu'on a pu constater, ce sont des cas de malnutrition chronique» - see La difficulté d'enquêter.) Incogreader ( talk 22 June 2019 —Preceding undated comment added 03:52, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
First of all, I don't understand why this was removed:
"However, life expectancy in North Korea in the mid-1990's during the worst years of the food shortage was still at least seven years higher than Cambodia (a country with a similar or slightly higher gross domestic product than North Korea) and at least two years higher than India (which has a higher GDP) [1]"
It was a synthesis of life expectancy data reported by Wikipedia (also including data from Google listing life expectancy on those pages). I believe this is worth stating, although one user complained about it, and reported to administrators. Incogreader ( talk) 03:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
References
@ Yue: Hi, I'm tagging you cuz quite a time passed since I added this topic and no one answered. I'll be grateful if you've got some info. Thanks in advance. Ентусиастъ/Entusiast ( talk) 10:18, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
The only cited source [62] is a Korean Times article, who doesn't list his own sources.
"Most factories in North Korea are non-functioning" is a strong statement, one reporter's offhand comment is insufficient evidence for this claim. The wage amounts also need to be sourced. Listiip ( talk) 06:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
At several points in the article percentages are stated without it being made clear precisely what they are referring to. For instance, women in the workforce is given a percentage of 89%, but it is not clear whether this means that 89% of the workforce is composed of women or 89% of women are members of the workforce. At another point child malnutrition is stated as being at 3%. What does this mean? The 3% of children suffer malnutrition? Surely that figure is higher. Prbedard ( talk) 02:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Is North Korea no longer a nation soon 2001:4455:69B:900:B8BF:F1D6:B330:F89E ( talk) 03:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
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Because several editors have pointed out the lack of references and obvious bias in the essay by Shultz IV, I've moved his content here for now. I've replaced the article page with content from North Korea, Kim Jong-il, and Famine articles, to serve as a stub.
Shultz IV, please re-add any part of the below after you add references and subtract the commentary. thanks. Appleby 15:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
{{references}} {{NPOV}}
The North Korean famine of the 1990s started when Kim Il-sung, an amateur in the ways of farming, ordered more rice to be grown in the hills in many parts of North Korea. He also ordered for trees to be cut down in order to give more room to grow rice.
Farmers and agricultural specialists who knew better realized immediately that the lack of trees and natural vegetation would allow the rainwaters to progress faster towards the streams & rivers, causing them to receive more than they can take downstream, thus allowing them to overflow their banks! This way, floods would occur and the disaster wouldn't only be that, but also famine resulting from drowning the crops.
However, no one would dare challenge the Great Leader! Whoever thought of challenging him feared getting sent to a re-education camp. (Like the Yodok Concentration Camp, for example.) Therefore, they had no choice but to obey his orders.
Sure enough, the floods came and the famine started to sweep the nation. However, North Korean media was still forced to lionize the leaders and their accomplishments, and was completely disallowed from reporting negative happenings in their own country. Nevertheless, Kim Il-sung eventually found out about it. He realized that the only way he would save the country is through Reunification. He started the process moving, but in the wee hours of July 8, 1994, he got in an animated argument with Kim Jong-il, and suddenly collapsed due to a heart attack. If it hadn't have been for that (i.e. if Kim Il-sung checked up on his health earlier), Korea may have been reunified today, with millions of lives saved.
Unfortunately, Kim Il-sung's death halted the reunification process and so the famine was allowed to take its course. Flooding was engulfing significant portions of the nation, and so the crops were not allowed to grow. Due to their ideology of "self-reliance", they would not buy food from any neighboring countries nor ask for help in the get-go. As a result, 200,000-1.5 million North Koreans are estimated to have died in what they call the "Arduous March". The Northern provinces of North Korea, that is, North Pyongan, Chagang, Yanggang, and North Hamgyong suffered the most. Pyongyang and all provinces to the south of the capital were spared the brunt of the disaster.
Eventually, they did call the world for disaster relief, and so the Red Cross and the World Food Programme arrived to give assistance. At first, a great portion of the donated food and resources were diverted to their military due to their so called "Military First" policy and the fact that giving them more food & resources would help maintain their loyalty better. However, the aid organizations eventually found out and ensured that the donations only went to where they needed to go.
There was still a shortage of food in some places, and the living conditions worsened as well. Thus, some North Koreans fled the country across the border, often across the Yalu and Tumen Rivers to find more food and a better life. Many stayed in China and even stay in hiding to this day. Many others made the trek to Shenyang and Beijing to South Korean diplomatic compounds to request asylum.
The Communist regime of North Korea is said to have lost the Mandate of Heaven. South Koreans agree, as well as many people around the world. North Koreans may agree also, although they are not free to say so.
There was no "aftermath", people, because it didn't end. Actually it is potentially worse than ever!
Sometimes Wikipedia is a total joke. Articles about some unimportant people are longer than the fate of millions right now. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 08:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"the North estimates its losses at about 2.5 million to 3 million from 1995 to March 1998"
2.5-3 million what? dollars? acres? people? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.14.143.188 (
talk)
22:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I can't belive it is TOTALLY IGNORED. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Pleace use external links I provided while re-writting this joke of an article. -- 84.234.60.154 ( talk) 22:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I have found no explanation in the article about the meaning of the term "Arduous March". The sentence in Schultz IV' commentary above, "As a result, 200,000-1.5 million North Koreans are estimated to have died in what they call the "Arduous March".", is not very enlightening; why was a famine called a march? -- Enaskitis ( talk) 09:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
The list of external links in the article was just ridiculous. Rather than just delete them I am moving them here for future reference: PC78 ( talk) 23:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I was redirected from march of tribulation...what does this mean? surely a reason for the redirect? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.122.13.129 ( talk) 21:40, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
In an attempt to shorten the article Economy of North Korea I have moved 2 sections (black market activities and the Public Distribution System) into this article since they deal directly with the famine. The shortened "crisis" section of the Economy article now is more summarized and has a link to this article. Coinmanj ( talk) 09:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Should a new section be made about the recent deaths that have occurred in the past year or so? There isn't mention of the current estimations in the right info box, as far as the article 'North Korean Famine' is concerned, it ended in 1998. The estimation of 10,000-20,000 deaths is pretty steep, I think it merits its own section seeing how when a small plane crashes with 3 people on board it gets its own article. Thoughts? Johnsmithy678 ( talk) 02:32, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
YouTube videos speak of desperate measures, such as hunting of small animals like frogs and eating plants such as bark or grass. Also video of the countryside shows a ravaged, yellow countryside. It would be enlightening to read discussion of these developments in this article. Dogru144 ( talk) 07:51, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
This article is starting to sound like rabid western propaganda. Starting with the photos, I bet much of the rest is BS.
PS Where are the NASA photos - I am sure they can fill in the missing years on a day by day basis.
2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E (
talk)
03:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Propaganda should be ashamed of itself when it is so stupid. The deaths vary over such a range you know that no one knows the number - many millions to 240,000. US Census can't even count Americans with great reliability and now we are told they can estimate population in countries they can't even visit - sorry but BS. 240,000 deaths over 8 years (30,000 a year) over a population of 22,000,000 gives 30/22,000 or 3/2,200 - I bet this isn't statistically significant. The larger death estimates appear to well within error ranges of any US government numbers of the US much less N Korea. I love BS but this is too stupid to even laugh at.
2601:181:8301:4510:B182:F9B2:4167:1552 (
talk)
00:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Does the sanctions really help the situation? It is pretty clear that the US/West are trying to overthrow the regime by making the situation even worse. They punish the whole population by doing so and put the blame only on the regime while i think that part of the famine however small or big is to blame on US/West politics. I think there should be a section about that. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/10/10/north-korea-sanctions-punish-the-whole-population/—Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.103.161.92 ( talk) 17:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
This article minimises the impact of the floods (even more so, before I edited it), but most sources say that the floods did have a large impact. (The collapse of the Soviet bloc is also important, of course.) This article mentions economic mismanagement but doesn't explain why this mismanagement would have come to a head in the 1990s.
The citation of Daniel Schwekendiek has been tagged as dubious since 2013. I have located his article, which is based on child height data, and this is the relevant sentence in his conclusion: "Interestingly, the North Korean government's official explanation for the famine—the floods—is not verified here, since the living standards in the previously flood-affected counties were not significantly worse than in the unaffected ones." This assumes that the effect of the floods was localised, which seems to be false. What about flooding of coal mines and damage to hydro-electric dams? The effect of that kind of damage would go across the economy, particularly as it is centralised, and would not necessarily have any impact on the nutrition of nearby children. I will amend the article to reflect what he actually concluded, but I feel the article might be giving undue weight to one study.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Many deaths were related to the cold in winter, but this isn't mentioned.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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The Background section has two paragraphs about famines in the 1950s (the first one associated with the Korean War). I think this is unnecessary and misleading.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:50, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
According to this [2], the quotation came from an article entitled "Chosun's Supreme Power", that wasn't translated into English, and the quotation was: "The path to the revolution is never easy, we might have to go through Arduous March again – in which we only had to eat roots of the grass – and we might have to fight against our enemies all by one’s self". It appears to be a passing comment, the implication of which out of keeping with the general thrust of articles published by Rodong Sinmun [3], which features articles like "Nobody Can Block DPRK's Advance": "High-rise apartment houses will spring up in Ryomyong Street like mushrooms after rain before long through self-reliance and self-development. This represents the mode of the struggle of the Korean people to foil the moves to isolate and stifle the DPRK and bring earlier a rosy future."-- Jack Upland ( talk) 04:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
What is the justification for saying that the famine recommenced in 2002?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:21, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Dr. O Grada has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:
Nobody--repeat, nobody--believes that 3 million died of famine in North Korea in the 1990s. The best guess is probably that by Spoorenberg and Schwekendiek's (cited in fn 7).
Why the 3 million figure became so widely cited is an interesting, separate question. Haggard and Noland, and Becker (all cited here), who gave such a figure credibility as 'regime change' scholars, over-egged the death toll for political reasons. They are given too much respect here.
That there was a crisis and excess mortality is not in doubt. But perhaps the crisis should be seen as a more long-term shift in average mortality than as a famine.
We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.
Dr. O Grada has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:
ExpertIdeasBot ( talk) 12:39, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Census data is the result of current pop + births - deaths. Any data on birth rates. If they fall, the census pop slows down.
2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E (
talk)
03:11, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Hazel Smith comments on the UN Human Rights Report:
Given that Smith's view is backed by several authoritative sources, I think the article should be amended to give a more accurate picture of the current situation. I mean that we should tone down references to starvation, cannibalism etc, and rely on long-term research rather than sensationalist reports.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:35, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Read this article for the current situation. How many millions of poor ( not well feed ) kids does the US have? Andrei Lankov is professor of Korean Studies at Kookmin University, Seoul. He is the author of "The Real North Korea: Life and Politics in the Failed Stalinist Utopia".Read 2601:181:8301:4510:C046:CE4F:B684:C00E ( talk) 03:21, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
The following was removed with the edit summary "Citations dont actually say what the poster is claiming":
This is patently untrue. There are a number of citations there, and, while the wording could be modified, the text does reflect the citations. I reinserted the text, but it was removed again with the edit summary "not a usable citation, removed until a relevant one is provided". The UN, a British academic, and a respected analyst of North Korea are not "usable" or "relevant"?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 13:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
References
Hi User:Jack Upland, Thank you for following up the critical issue for the human right. I believe that you have a warm heart for the people in DPRK Goodtiming8871 ( talk) 02:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
I am skeptical of claims by the article according to which North Korea claims millions died in the famine (see [ Estimated number of deaths]). I have searched extensively through North Korean media and web sites and can find no such evidence anywhere in sight. One of the articles cited (see World: Asia-Pacific North Korea 'loses 3 million to famine') gives "North Korean" statistics which were in fact provided by Yonhap (linked to South Korean intelligence and never a reliable source for information on North Korea). I would like to remove this from the article as this is most likely a misquote/distortion by South Korean intelligence. If North Korea has ever claimed anything remotely similar to this, please say where to find it (outside of quotations by Yonhap). There doesn't appear to be a single webpage from North Korea which discusses the alleged mid-to-late 1990's famine (let alone any with figures that inflated).
Philippe Biberson, president of Médecins sans frontières (Doctors Without Borders), said in 1998 that "we don't have any medical data on this country [North Korea], that's why these studies extrapolating from figures taken on a reduced scale are dishonest" and that "in the places I've visited, I do not believe the people die from hunger." (see Corée du Nord: la famine «manipulée»Le président de MSF déplore l'opacité et les contraintes qui entourent la lutte contre la disette. - French original: "On n'a aucune information médicale sur ce pays, c'est pourquoi ces études extrapolant à partir de chiffres pris sur un échantillon réduit sont malhonnêtes" and, also, "Dans les endroits que j'ai visités, je ne pense pas que les gens meurent de faim."). I would like to quote this in the article, but I'm not sure exactly how to do it because it's originally in French - would I simply quote the translation, or provide the original text with it?
Also, another point: the source provided for the claim "Roughly 45% of North Korean children under the age of five are stunted from malnutrition and the population of kotjebi persists." does not actually state 45% of children are stunted, and is sensationalist reporting about young supposed "defectors" whom Laos and North Korea say were actually victims of human trafficking who may have been beaten and forced to convert to Christianity. I have removed it from the article as the citation only discusses "kotjebi" and not the _supposed_ 45% of North Korean children (and what about homeless populations and malnourished children in the developed countries of the world, much richer in terms of average GDP than North Korea - in the United States, just for one example, over 12 million children are food insecure - which amounts to one in six children, if we count children as anyone under 18 - that is "economic mismanagement"). The article also has other claims that I plan to follow up at some point. Incogreader ( talk • contribs) 17:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Thus, barring the possibility of deaths after March 1997 (the alleged famine is said to have been worst in 1997, so this is possible), wouldn't it be more correct to say that North Korea referred to the period of economic difficulty and food shortage as the Arduous March, rather than the "famine" which, according to North Korea seems to be (again, unless they reported such deaths after March 1997) that it never actually happened as claimed, although there was food shortage and things were difficult (backing anecdotal accounts by Biberson of Doctors Without Borders/MSF that he didn't "think that the people die from hunger" in the places he visited, or, the one of Michel Tailhedes, a doctor with the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, who said in 1998 "We've never seen people die from hunger. All we have seen are cases of chronic malnutrition." (French original: «On n'a jamais vu de gens mourir de faim. Tout ce qu'on a pu constater, ce sont des cas de malnutrition chronique» - see La difficulté d'enquêter.) Incogreader ( talk 22 June 2019 —Preceding undated comment added 03:52, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
First of all, I don't understand why this was removed:
"However, life expectancy in North Korea in the mid-1990's during the worst years of the food shortage was still at least seven years higher than Cambodia (a country with a similar or slightly higher gross domestic product than North Korea) and at least two years higher than India (which has a higher GDP) [1]"
It was a synthesis of life expectancy data reported by Wikipedia (also including data from Google listing life expectancy on those pages). I believe this is worth stating, although one user complained about it, and reported to administrators. Incogreader ( talk) 03:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
References
@ Yue: Hi, I'm tagging you cuz quite a time passed since I added this topic and no one answered. I'll be grateful if you've got some info. Thanks in advance. Ентусиастъ/Entusiast ( talk) 10:18, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
The only cited source [62] is a Korean Times article, who doesn't list his own sources.
"Most factories in North Korea are non-functioning" is a strong statement, one reporter's offhand comment is insufficient evidence for this claim. The wage amounts also need to be sourced. Listiip ( talk) 06:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
At several points in the article percentages are stated without it being made clear precisely what they are referring to. For instance, women in the workforce is given a percentage of 89%, but it is not clear whether this means that 89% of the workforce is composed of women or 89% of women are members of the workforce. At another point child malnutrition is stated as being at 3%. What does this mean? The 3% of children suffer malnutrition? Surely that figure is higher. Prbedard ( talk) 02:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Is North Korea no longer a nation soon 2001:4455:69B:900:B8BF:F1D6:B330:F89E ( talk) 03:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)