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The description of his death is strange and it seems fictitious. Using a reliable source, someone needs to research his death.
Why is there a Persian connection here? Were Qajar tribe and Agha Mohamad Persians? It sounds like Agha Mohamad took over the country back from Persians (i.e Karim Khans successors)? This is one last time that Turks took over IRAN (not Persia) until Reza Pahlavi was put in power by the British. Is there any written notes, speeches left from Agha Mohamad Khan (The last Great King of Iran) to anyone who views this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.3.194 ( talk) 04:43, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Agha Mohammed was a Turk, his native tongue was Turkish, the Qajars are a Turkic people closely related to the Azeri Turks, Turkmen and other Oghuz Turks. The Zandis were not Persian but of lurish descent so no matter how one would twist it, the Qajars did not take the throne away from the Persian populace as they didn’t rule to begin with. Europeans used “Persia” to refer to Iran during that age, so the use of Persia is warranted even though Iranians themselves called it “Iran” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.206.204.238 ( talk) 10:45, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
If Agha Muhammad launched a rebellion in 1794 and proclaimed himself Shah two years later (~1796), then how is it he "was assassinated in 1797...after about 16 years in power." (emphasis added)
Could the 16 refer to the number of months he reigned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.195.100 ( talk) 23:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. There have been no objections after more than a month. Cúchullain t/ c 14:43, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Mohammad Khan Qajar →
Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar –
Most sources (especially the major ones such as the Cambridge history of Iran) tend to use "Agha Mohammad Khan (Qajar)". -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 14:11, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
There are various sources that states he used the title 'Shahanshah', which is quite obvious he used [1] [2]. Quite silly that I actually have to post sources about this, it's like saying the Sasanians didn't use the title of Shahanshah. Iranian monarchy, heck, other monarchies as well, usually had a LOT of titles, we're not gonna add every single title on the infoboxes. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 11:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion moved from user talkpage |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hello Pahlevun You don't need a source for the obvious, do I have to find a source that states that the Sasanian monarchs used the title of Shahanshah as well? Heck, a simple Google search will show you more than enough--here, for example [3]. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 18:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|
@ Ad Orientem: Note that there's a slight difference between Shah and Shahanshah. The latter means 'king of the kings', while the former means only 'king'. So the second one is a title and not all shahs used the title shahanshah. This is the quote from the source removed by User:HistoryofIran:
The self-image of the Qajar shah as the nucleus of the ruling elite and as the supreme regulator with divine rights is evident in the use of titles and honorifics and the way these evolved over time. Although the chronicles of the Qajar period showered Aqa Muhammad Khan with many grand appellations, during his own time as ruler he adopted no more grand a title than khan and later shah. By contrast, his successor, Fath 'Ali Shah adopted not only the ancient Persian title of shahanshah ("king of kings") but also the Torco-Mongol title of khaqan ("the khan of the khans"), symbolizing claims over both the throne and the tribes. The lineage was underscored among Fath 'Ali Shah's successors: Muhammad Shah was referred to as "Khaqan son of Khaqan," Nasir al-Din Shah as "Khaqan son of Khaqan son of Khaqan." These royal titles were embellished with an array of other honorifics reflecting the rulers' desire to present a sense of historical continuity and hence legitimacy. Drawing on the glories of the Persian mythical and dynastic past, the Qajar shah was acclaimed by court chroniclers and in official records as a “world conqueror” (gity sitan) of “Alexandrian magnitude” (sikandar sha'n), a possessor of Jamshid's glory (Jamjah),...
— Amanat, Abbas (1997), Pivot of the Universe: Nasir Al-Din Shah Qajar and the Iranian Monarchy, 1831-1896, Comparative studies on Muslim societies, I.B.Tauris, p. 10, ISBN 9781860640971
— Pahlevun ( talk) 19:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|succession =
in the infobox? I don't think that using the title Shahanshah makes sense there and it should be used for |title=
.
Pahlevun (
talk)
19:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Shahanshah ( lit. 'the king of kings') is a title that some Shahs (kings) of Iran used and some did not. The question is:
|succession=
in the infobox, or |title=
will suffice?You can see the discussion above over the dispute. RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC). Pahlevun ( talk) 23:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|title=
would not suffice. (
Summoned by bot) --
BoogaLouie (
talk)
15:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:25, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
The article states:
In 1778, Agha Mohammad Khan moved his capital from Sari in his home province of Mazandaran to Tehran. He was the first Iranian ruler to make Tehran—the successor to the great city of Ray—his capital, although both the Safavids and the Zands had expanded the town and built palaces there. One of the main reasons noted for moving the capital farther north was ...
The reference to "farther north" is confusing. Khan moved his capital from Sari to Tehran. Sari is north of Tehran, therefore the Khan moved his capital south, not north.
Karl gregory jones ( talk) 21:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
I have a problem with the use “mazandaran” here. Agha Mohammed was born in Gorgan, not Mazandaran. It is true that before 1997 Gorgan was part of mazandaran but nowadays it is misleading. The Qajars did live natively in eastern Mazandaran, but it arguably was not Agha’s native province in a modern sense as he was not born nor raised there but in what is now Golestan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.206.204.238 ( talk) 10:48, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
He also raped 50 Punjabi Muslim girls on his expedition to Punjab, a part of former Mughal Empire; but he failed to conquer the Punjab. So he destroyed the cities of Bahawalpur, Bahawalnagar and Muzaffargarh. And he forced the regional Maulavis to supply him 50 Regional Muslim Teen Girls as a part of Ransom for leaving their region. 2405:205:C929:D527:B26A:A137:9FC8:2E0C ( talk) 11:29, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
I have located a dangling ref and hidden it, replacing it with a citation needed tag. This has been done because we have a reference pointing to a source that is not recorded in the article. Please feel free to contact me if you need assistance fixing this. - Aussie Article Writer ( talk) 04:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
User:HistoryofIran, Kurdish chieftains didn't control Kalat and Darra Gaz. Darra Gaz was controlled by Chapshlu Turkic khans, while Jalayer tribesmen controlled Kalat. Read Christine Noelle's book "The Pearl in its Midst: Herat and the Mapping of Khurasan (15th-19th Centuries)" and [6] for more information. Also my map lists the sources involved in it's creation on Wikimedia Commons (although i made that map before I read Christine Noelle-Karimi's book, so it needs to be updated as it excludes a few minor ones like Darra Gaz). Although they may have been considered De jure Afsharid, they effectively acted entirely independently from the weak government in Mashhad and frequently fought with Nasrullah Mirza Afshar and Nader Mirza Afshar. The map shows de facto control and not de jure control. Kailanmapper ( talk) 19:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
User:HistoryofIran I wouldn't use John Malcolm if his source wasn't correlated with multiple contemporary and modern sources. The Siraj al-Tawarikh, Mohamed Yusuf's book "A History of Afghanistan; from 1793 A.D. to 1865 A.D.", the Farsnama, The Dynasty of the Qajars, James Braille Fraser's book on his travels in Khorasan from 1821 to 1822, "THE AFGHAN - IRANIAN CONFLICT OVER HERAT PROVINCE AND EUROPEAN INTERVENTION 1796 - 1863: A REINTERPRETATION", the book by Christine Noelle-Karimi that I already mentioned etc also have information that supports Malcolm's claims. Thus I think it's valid to say that Malcolm isn't an invalid source in this case. As far as Russian Wikipedia, it was literally me looking at Eshaq Khan Qarai's page to see the date they gave for his overthrow of Najaf Qoli Khan, pretty minor honestly and shouldn't take away from anything. I would have shown de jure Afsharid control but again, the map was meant to be de facto and not de jure (although i might write a little note about it on the map). Finally wdym the quality of the map is bad? That's pretty vague criticism, can you give a more detailed response so I can improve the map? It doesn't seem that bad honestly compared to the loads of garbage wikipedia maps out there but still feedback is necessary so can you just give me a more detailed criticism of the quality of the map? Kailanmapper ( talk) 19:30, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Alright, thank you a lot for the feedback. I usually add cities but for whatever reason I didn't on this map so I'll fix it. I'll add a textbox also, but I won't add rivers. Since rivers have shifting passes due to erosion and such, I don't add rivers to my map unless I have detailed information on their historical paths. Kailanmapper ( talk) 20:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll try and work on it later today. Kailanmapper ( talk) 20:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Battle of Krtsanisi was copied or moved into Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Page views of this article over the last 90 days:
|
The description of his death is strange and it seems fictitious. Using a reliable source, someone needs to research his death.
Why is there a Persian connection here? Were Qajar tribe and Agha Mohamad Persians? It sounds like Agha Mohamad took over the country back from Persians (i.e Karim Khans successors)? This is one last time that Turks took over IRAN (not Persia) until Reza Pahlavi was put in power by the British. Is there any written notes, speeches left from Agha Mohamad Khan (The last Great King of Iran) to anyone who views this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.3.194 ( talk) 04:43, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Agha Mohammed was a Turk, his native tongue was Turkish, the Qajars are a Turkic people closely related to the Azeri Turks, Turkmen and other Oghuz Turks. The Zandis were not Persian but of lurish descent so no matter how one would twist it, the Qajars did not take the throne away from the Persian populace as they didn’t rule to begin with. Europeans used “Persia” to refer to Iran during that age, so the use of Persia is warranted even though Iranians themselves called it “Iran” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.206.204.238 ( talk) 10:45, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
If Agha Muhammad launched a rebellion in 1794 and proclaimed himself Shah two years later (~1796), then how is it he "was assassinated in 1797...after about 16 years in power." (emphasis added)
Could the 16 refer to the number of months he reigned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.195.100 ( talk) 23:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. There have been no objections after more than a month. Cúchullain t/ c 14:43, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Mohammad Khan Qajar →
Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar –
Most sources (especially the major ones such as the Cambridge history of Iran) tend to use "Agha Mohammad Khan (Qajar)". -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 14:11, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
There are various sources that states he used the title 'Shahanshah', which is quite obvious he used [1] [2]. Quite silly that I actually have to post sources about this, it's like saying the Sasanians didn't use the title of Shahanshah. Iranian monarchy, heck, other monarchies as well, usually had a LOT of titles, we're not gonna add every single title on the infoboxes. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 11:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion moved from user talkpage |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hello Pahlevun You don't need a source for the obvious, do I have to find a source that states that the Sasanian monarchs used the title of Shahanshah as well? Heck, a simple Google search will show you more than enough--here, for example [3]. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 18:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|
@ Ad Orientem: Note that there's a slight difference between Shah and Shahanshah. The latter means 'king of the kings', while the former means only 'king'. So the second one is a title and not all shahs used the title shahanshah. This is the quote from the source removed by User:HistoryofIran:
The self-image of the Qajar shah as the nucleus of the ruling elite and as the supreme regulator with divine rights is evident in the use of titles and honorifics and the way these evolved over time. Although the chronicles of the Qajar period showered Aqa Muhammad Khan with many grand appellations, during his own time as ruler he adopted no more grand a title than khan and later shah. By contrast, his successor, Fath 'Ali Shah adopted not only the ancient Persian title of shahanshah ("king of kings") but also the Torco-Mongol title of khaqan ("the khan of the khans"), symbolizing claims over both the throne and the tribes. The lineage was underscored among Fath 'Ali Shah's successors: Muhammad Shah was referred to as "Khaqan son of Khaqan," Nasir al-Din Shah as "Khaqan son of Khaqan son of Khaqan." These royal titles were embellished with an array of other honorifics reflecting the rulers' desire to present a sense of historical continuity and hence legitimacy. Drawing on the glories of the Persian mythical and dynastic past, the Qajar shah was acclaimed by court chroniclers and in official records as a “world conqueror” (gity sitan) of “Alexandrian magnitude” (sikandar sha'n), a possessor of Jamshid's glory (Jamjah),...
— Amanat, Abbas (1997), Pivot of the Universe: Nasir Al-Din Shah Qajar and the Iranian Monarchy, 1831-1896, Comparative studies on Muslim societies, I.B.Tauris, p. 10, ISBN 9781860640971
— Pahlevun ( talk) 19:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|succession =
in the infobox? I don't think that using the title Shahanshah makes sense there and it should be used for |title=
.
Pahlevun (
talk)
19:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Shahanshah ( lit. 'the king of kings') is a title that some Shahs (kings) of Iran used and some did not. The question is:
|succession=
in the infobox, or |title=
will suffice?You can see the discussion above over the dispute. RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 01:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC). Pahlevun ( talk) 23:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
|title=
would not suffice. (
Summoned by bot) --
BoogaLouie (
talk)
15:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:25, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
The article states:
In 1778, Agha Mohammad Khan moved his capital from Sari in his home province of Mazandaran to Tehran. He was the first Iranian ruler to make Tehran—the successor to the great city of Ray—his capital, although both the Safavids and the Zands had expanded the town and built palaces there. One of the main reasons noted for moving the capital farther north was ...
The reference to "farther north" is confusing. Khan moved his capital from Sari to Tehran. Sari is north of Tehran, therefore the Khan moved his capital south, not north.
Karl gregory jones ( talk) 21:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
I have a problem with the use “mazandaran” here. Agha Mohammed was born in Gorgan, not Mazandaran. It is true that before 1997 Gorgan was part of mazandaran but nowadays it is misleading. The Qajars did live natively in eastern Mazandaran, but it arguably was not Agha’s native province in a modern sense as he was not born nor raised there but in what is now Golestan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.206.204.238 ( talk) 10:48, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
He also raped 50 Punjabi Muslim girls on his expedition to Punjab, a part of former Mughal Empire; but he failed to conquer the Punjab. So he destroyed the cities of Bahawalpur, Bahawalnagar and Muzaffargarh. And he forced the regional Maulavis to supply him 50 Regional Muslim Teen Girls as a part of Ransom for leaving their region. 2405:205:C929:D527:B26A:A137:9FC8:2E0C ( talk) 11:29, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
I have located a dangling ref and hidden it, replacing it with a citation needed tag. This has been done because we have a reference pointing to a source that is not recorded in the article. Please feel free to contact me if you need assistance fixing this. - Aussie Article Writer ( talk) 04:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
User:HistoryofIran, Kurdish chieftains didn't control Kalat and Darra Gaz. Darra Gaz was controlled by Chapshlu Turkic khans, while Jalayer tribesmen controlled Kalat. Read Christine Noelle's book "The Pearl in its Midst: Herat and the Mapping of Khurasan (15th-19th Centuries)" and [6] for more information. Also my map lists the sources involved in it's creation on Wikimedia Commons (although i made that map before I read Christine Noelle-Karimi's book, so it needs to be updated as it excludes a few minor ones like Darra Gaz). Although they may have been considered De jure Afsharid, they effectively acted entirely independently from the weak government in Mashhad and frequently fought with Nasrullah Mirza Afshar and Nader Mirza Afshar. The map shows de facto control and not de jure control. Kailanmapper ( talk) 19:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
User:HistoryofIran I wouldn't use John Malcolm if his source wasn't correlated with multiple contemporary and modern sources. The Siraj al-Tawarikh, Mohamed Yusuf's book "A History of Afghanistan; from 1793 A.D. to 1865 A.D.", the Farsnama, The Dynasty of the Qajars, James Braille Fraser's book on his travels in Khorasan from 1821 to 1822, "THE AFGHAN - IRANIAN CONFLICT OVER HERAT PROVINCE AND EUROPEAN INTERVENTION 1796 - 1863: A REINTERPRETATION", the book by Christine Noelle-Karimi that I already mentioned etc also have information that supports Malcolm's claims. Thus I think it's valid to say that Malcolm isn't an invalid source in this case. As far as Russian Wikipedia, it was literally me looking at Eshaq Khan Qarai's page to see the date they gave for his overthrow of Najaf Qoli Khan, pretty minor honestly and shouldn't take away from anything. I would have shown de jure Afsharid control but again, the map was meant to be de facto and not de jure (although i might write a little note about it on the map). Finally wdym the quality of the map is bad? That's pretty vague criticism, can you give a more detailed response so I can improve the map? It doesn't seem that bad honestly compared to the loads of garbage wikipedia maps out there but still feedback is necessary so can you just give me a more detailed criticism of the quality of the map? Kailanmapper ( talk) 19:30, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Alright, thank you a lot for the feedback. I usually add cities but for whatever reason I didn't on this map so I'll fix it. I'll add a textbox also, but I won't add rivers. Since rivers have shifting passes due to erosion and such, I don't add rivers to my map unless I have detailed information on their historical paths. Kailanmapper ( talk) 20:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll try and work on it later today. Kailanmapper ( talk) 20:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)