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Faustian please do not provoke an edit war by restoring this exceptional claim that the professors were murdered because they wre Soviet collaborators. Please present SOURCES (SOURCES with an “s” at the end) that confirm the claim. If this is true it should not be difficult to find the sources. So far you FAILED to provide any sources other that ONE questionable PDF article in Ukrainian language nobody can even read. Thanks.-- Jacurek ( talk) 15:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Per the latest comment by an independent reviewer on the reliable sources noticeboard here: In reply to Faustian from above, if the material isn't contained in the English language Marples, then there is no problem with sourcing it from the equally scholarly and reliable Patrylyak. Fifelfoo ( talk) 16:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Then you will have no problem finding source that contain this information and doesn't speak about "anti-colonial struggle" of OUN or understandable "hatred of Jews".-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Not sure what to do.. but I think there is no other choice that to report Faustian for extreme POV pushing and edit war. I hate to do that but what else can be done? Pleads for sources that would back up that ground breaking totally unheard of before claim are met with personal attacks and edit war..I think we tried everything on this talk page. Any ideas?-- Jacurek ( talk) 17:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I shortened the fringe theory about Nazi collaborationists OUN per WP:Fringe-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I propose legacy section where we can add the post-war efforts to remember the victims and Ukrainian reactions to those efforts.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Please note that one of significant contributors to this talk page, User:J.kunikowski, has been confirmed by CU evidence as a topic-ban evading sockpuppet of User:Loosmark and both accounts have been indef-blocked. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loosmark/Archive and WP:AN#Ban discussion: Loosmark and sockpuppeting for details. Nsk92 ( talk) 07:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Can somebody find a ref for this location, and more about it? I am not finding much, there was a Wulka street, later renameed to Boy-Zelenski street... but "Wulka hills" are drawing a blank, in English and Polish. Some other Polish sources talk of "Wzgórza Wuleckie" ("Wuleckie hills") but that term is not used in English. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
The current article states "The lists (of people who should be arrested by the Nazi's) were prepared by their Ukrainian students associated with OUN". The article is unclear how many students we are talking about. Unfortunately I can not read the references... I think it should be mentioned how big this group was, to avoid making it look that most of there Ukrainian students where killers. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
This is somewhat straying from the topic but it's sort of interesting - according to this IPN report [5], the person who made the mention to Lanckoronska about the executions (and presumably the origins of the list) was Hans Kruger (pl wiki). According to pl wiki Waltera Kutschmann was the person who sent a report to Berlin which mention that Kruger had been telling people about his participation in the massacre. Anyway, this IPN dokument also says that they are reviewing further German documents. Volunteer Marek 15:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I looked at the Polish wiki version of the article and there there is a little bit more about this. This source [6] states:
"Akcję przeprowadzono bardzo sprawnie według wcześniej ustalonej listy sporządzonej prawdopodobnie w Krakowie przez studentów ukraińskich 85"
"The Action (the arrest of the professors) was carried out very skillfully based on earlier prepared list, compiled most likely in Krakow by Ukrainian students"
The footnote says:
"W historiografii często pisze się, że listy profesorów wg których hitlerowcy przeprowadzili aresztowania, a następnie egzekucję sporządzili na początku 1941 r. ukraińscy studenci z organizacji nacjonalistycznych, którzy znajdowali się w Krakowie. Wersja ta jest bardzo prawdopodobna, jednakże nie znaczy to, że byli oni winni mordu, gdyż nikt nie spodziewał się, że we Lwowie sprawa przybierze taki obrót (zob. W. Bonusiak: Kto zabił profesorów lwowskich? Rzeszów 1989). "
"In the historiography it is often written that the list of professors who were arrested by the Nazis, and then executed, was created at the beginning of 1941 by Ukrainian students from nationalist organizations, who were in krakow. This version is very probable, although this does not mean that they (the students) were guilty of these murders, since no one expected at the time that this (the murder) is what is going to happen in Lwow".
Then it cites another work. The Polish wiki article adds however that in other locals (Krzemieniec, Stanislawow) where the murders of Polish intelligentsia took place, these were also based on lists prepared by "Ukrainian nationalists". This second claim is cited to Motyka, "Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła", who's reliable and generally unbiased on the subject matter (though someone should check to make sure that this is indeed in the source). Volunteer Marek 15:16, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Is the list of victims really necessary here? Per WP:MEMORIAL, it should probably be removed, especially because the vast majority of those links are red. Perhaps it can be replaced with a paragraph that includes some of the people that we do have articles on. — howcheng { chat} 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
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Earlier I removed two sentences, one consisting of a victim-blaming denial with absolutely no credibility (that dozens of University professors had no involvement in politics, as if that mattered to the Nazis' goal of killing all Polish elites) and another that Ukrainians were not to blame because the Poles deserved death for cooperating with the Soviets (which is both unprovable and again does not matter since it was the Nazi goal to eliminate all elites to forestall any resistance). The user who reverted my edits also reverted my adjustment to the coordinates at the same time, suggesting that they did their revert without enough care. Abductive ( reasoning) 19:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Massacre of Lviv professors redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 4, 2007, July 4, 2008, July 4, 2009, July 4, 2010, and July 4, 2016. |
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Faustian please do not provoke an edit war by restoring this exceptional claim that the professors were murdered because they wre Soviet collaborators. Please present SOURCES (SOURCES with an “s” at the end) that confirm the claim. If this is true it should not be difficult to find the sources. So far you FAILED to provide any sources other that ONE questionable PDF article in Ukrainian language nobody can even read. Thanks.-- Jacurek ( talk) 15:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Per the latest comment by an independent reviewer on the reliable sources noticeboard here: In reply to Faustian from above, if the material isn't contained in the English language Marples, then there is no problem with sourcing it from the equally scholarly and reliable Patrylyak. Fifelfoo ( talk) 16:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Then you will have no problem finding source that contain this information and doesn't speak about "anti-colonial struggle" of OUN or understandable "hatred of Jews".-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Not sure what to do.. but I think there is no other choice that to report Faustian for extreme POV pushing and edit war. I hate to do that but what else can be done? Pleads for sources that would back up that ground breaking totally unheard of before claim are met with personal attacks and edit war..I think we tried everything on this talk page. Any ideas?-- Jacurek ( talk) 17:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I shortened the fringe theory about Nazi collaborationists OUN per WP:Fringe-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I propose legacy section where we can add the post-war efforts to remember the victims and Ukrainian reactions to those efforts.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Please note that one of significant contributors to this talk page, User:J.kunikowski, has been confirmed by CU evidence as a topic-ban evading sockpuppet of User:Loosmark and both accounts have been indef-blocked. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loosmark/Archive and WP:AN#Ban discussion: Loosmark and sockpuppeting for details. Nsk92 ( talk) 07:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Can somebody find a ref for this location, and more about it? I am not finding much, there was a Wulka street, later renameed to Boy-Zelenski street... but "Wulka hills" are drawing a blank, in English and Polish. Some other Polish sources talk of "Wzgórza Wuleckie" ("Wuleckie hills") but that term is not used in English. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
The current article states "The lists (of people who should be arrested by the Nazi's) were prepared by their Ukrainian students associated with OUN". The article is unclear how many students we are talking about. Unfortunately I can not read the references... I think it should be mentioned how big this group was, to avoid making it look that most of there Ukrainian students where killers. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
This is somewhat straying from the topic but it's sort of interesting - according to this IPN report [5], the person who made the mention to Lanckoronska about the executions (and presumably the origins of the list) was Hans Kruger (pl wiki). According to pl wiki Waltera Kutschmann was the person who sent a report to Berlin which mention that Kruger had been telling people about his participation in the massacre. Anyway, this IPN dokument also says that they are reviewing further German documents. Volunteer Marek 15:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I looked at the Polish wiki version of the article and there there is a little bit more about this. This source [6] states:
"Akcję przeprowadzono bardzo sprawnie według wcześniej ustalonej listy sporządzonej prawdopodobnie w Krakowie przez studentów ukraińskich 85"
"The Action (the arrest of the professors) was carried out very skillfully based on earlier prepared list, compiled most likely in Krakow by Ukrainian students"
The footnote says:
"W historiografii często pisze się, że listy profesorów wg których hitlerowcy przeprowadzili aresztowania, a następnie egzekucję sporządzili na początku 1941 r. ukraińscy studenci z organizacji nacjonalistycznych, którzy znajdowali się w Krakowie. Wersja ta jest bardzo prawdopodobna, jednakże nie znaczy to, że byli oni winni mordu, gdyż nikt nie spodziewał się, że we Lwowie sprawa przybierze taki obrót (zob. W. Bonusiak: Kto zabił profesorów lwowskich? Rzeszów 1989). "
"In the historiography it is often written that the list of professors who were arrested by the Nazis, and then executed, was created at the beginning of 1941 by Ukrainian students from nationalist organizations, who were in krakow. This version is very probable, although this does not mean that they (the students) were guilty of these murders, since no one expected at the time that this (the murder) is what is going to happen in Lwow".
Then it cites another work. The Polish wiki article adds however that in other locals (Krzemieniec, Stanislawow) where the murders of Polish intelligentsia took place, these were also based on lists prepared by "Ukrainian nationalists". This second claim is cited to Motyka, "Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła", who's reliable and generally unbiased on the subject matter (though someone should check to make sure that this is indeed in the source). Volunteer Marek 15:16, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Is the list of victims really necessary here? Per WP:MEMORIAL, it should probably be removed, especially because the vast majority of those links are red. Perhaps it can be replaced with a paragraph that includes some of the people that we do have articles on. — howcheng { chat} 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:56, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Earlier I removed two sentences, one consisting of a victim-blaming denial with absolutely no credibility (that dozens of University professors had no involvement in politics, as if that mattered to the Nazis' goal of killing all Polish elites) and another that Ukrainians were not to blame because the Poles deserved death for cooperating with the Soviets (which is both unprovable and again does not matter since it was the Nazi goal to eliminate all elites to forestall any resistance). The user who reverted my edits also reverted my adjustment to the coordinates at the same time, suggesting that they did their revert without enough care. Abductive ( reasoning) 19:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)