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Re: the spelling. Google disagrees with you. No hits for "Maria Klementina Sobieski" but some for "Maria Clementina Sobieski". Evercat 17:40 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
When I was in my Jacobite phase some 20 years ago, most of the references to her that I remember reading used the spelling "Clementina Sobieska". ("Maria" sometimes, but not always, preceded the name "Clementina".) The feminine form of a Polish surname in English-language references is also used for Maria Klementyna Sobieska's contemporary, Maria Leszczynska. (Sorry, Polish characters don't appear on my computer.) — Diamantina 03:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it quite wrong to say that Maria suffered from anorexia. I dare say some of the symptoms of this condition have existed through time, but as a clinical definition it belongs to the modern age. Rcpaterson 00:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Here, Maria Klementyna is said to have died on January 18, whereas the Jakub Ludwik Sobieski article says she died on January 24. Which one should it be? Anders Fröjmark 14:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Clementina Sobieski. This one was a bit difficult to close. However, I have to discount Molobo's oppose for not giving a reason. This was compounded because there was even less consensus on whether to preface the name "Maria" or not (so this may be something to reconsider in the future). However, the use of English usage over Polish was more clear (and supported by the MoS).- Andrew c [talk] 16:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Maria Klementyna Sobieska → Clementina Sobieski — Use the standard form of her name as used in English works, as opposed to the Polish form of her name. — Noel S McFerran 02:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Comparative numbers from Google Books:
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Keep present name. It seems to me that there are two arguably correct forms of her name:
The present name is the latter, and should be stuck with.-- Toddy1 20:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Support: The name Maria Clementina Sobieska is that which is used by most if not quite all historians especially those most interested in Jacobite matters. Frank McLynn, that most respected of Jacobite historains uses the name and that is good enough fo me. As I understand it the male version of the last name is Sobieski and the female Sobieska. After a first introduction the lady is usually referred to as simply Clementina Sobieska. De jure Queen Clementina is important to British history in that she was married to de jure King James III (& VIII) who was son of James II (& VII)(deposed in the so called "Glorious Revolution" of 1688). She was also the mother of Prince Charles Edward Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) who made an attempt in 1745/46 to restore his father to the throne of Britain. The attempt culminated in the battle of Culloden and the attempt failed.
It seems reasonable that the name should be anclicised when writing of Clementina in the context of British history. Indeed the matter is decided (except here!!) I own abuout 100 books on Jacobite history and I have never seen Clementina's name spelled in the Polish manner.
When a historian writes of the importance of this woman to Polish history (especially when that history is written in Polish) then the spelling Klementyna may well be appropriate. Stevelord Stevelord Stevelord —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevelord ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As long as there are proper links inserted, so that any reasonable form of the name that is typed into the search engine automatically links to this article, which then in its opening sentence gives alternative forms of her name, then the problem is minimal. I believe that as far as possible (and as far as it can be determined) the heading of the article should be rendered in the form in which the lady herself would have written it. 86.136.248.31 07:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Polish British is on my watchlist. Today, I learned that Saint Margaret of Scotland has been added to the list of "British Poles". That's news to me. Which led to the question of Bonnie Prince Charlie being on that list too, which led me here to this talk page. Here on English Wikipedia, Maria Clementina Sobieski, is called a Polish noblewoman. Even though her father was half Polish and half French, her mother, German on both sides. So how does that make her a Polish noblewoman? But following this thread further on Polish Wikipedia we are told there that she was born in Macerata, Italy. On English Wikipedia we are told she was born in Poland. Somebody's got to know where she was born. All the other Wikipedia language encyclopedia articles seem to be following suit with Ohlau, today Poland (since 1945), but not Poland in 1701. Btw, Polish WP gives her date of birth as July 17, 1701. English WP, July 18, 1702. But what's a day or a year anyway? It's only an encyclopedia. Could all the other articles be using Ohlau because they are simply copying off of the English article? Hope not. So then here's the conundrum. Is Maria Klementyna Sobieska aka Clementina Sobieski a Polish noblewoman? Was she born in Poland or Italy, or neither? Was she born in 1701 or 1702? On July 17th or July 18th? Are we putting together a factual and objective encyclopedia? Does it matter? Dr. Dan ( talk) 03:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I have added three citatations under "Marriage". I have also removed the "This article does not cite any sources" template, but am not sure if it was appropriate to do this. One of the citations was to a Wordpress page, which I know can be a problem; another was to an audio recording of a lecture. Also, although my citations covered most of the relevant section, they did not include the middle paragraph. For these reasons, I would be grateful if a someone - more experienced in these matters than I am - would review these edits. Thanks in advance. -- Mike Marchmont ( talk) 12:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
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Re: the spelling. Google disagrees with you. No hits for "Maria Klementina Sobieski" but some for "Maria Clementina Sobieski". Evercat 17:40 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
When I was in my Jacobite phase some 20 years ago, most of the references to her that I remember reading used the spelling "Clementina Sobieska". ("Maria" sometimes, but not always, preceded the name "Clementina".) The feminine form of a Polish surname in English-language references is also used for Maria Klementyna Sobieska's contemporary, Maria Leszczynska. (Sorry, Polish characters don't appear on my computer.) — Diamantina 03:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it quite wrong to say that Maria suffered from anorexia. I dare say some of the symptoms of this condition have existed through time, but as a clinical definition it belongs to the modern age. Rcpaterson 00:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Here, Maria Klementyna is said to have died on January 18, whereas the Jakub Ludwik Sobieski article says she died on January 24. Which one should it be? Anders Fröjmark 14:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Clementina Sobieski. This one was a bit difficult to close. However, I have to discount Molobo's oppose for not giving a reason. This was compounded because there was even less consensus on whether to preface the name "Maria" or not (so this may be something to reconsider in the future). However, the use of English usage over Polish was more clear (and supported by the MoS).- Andrew c [talk] 16:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Maria Klementyna Sobieska → Clementina Sobieski — Use the standard form of her name as used in English works, as opposed to the Polish form of her name. — Noel S McFerran 02:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Comparative numbers from Google Books:
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Keep present name. It seems to me that there are two arguably correct forms of her name:
The present name is the latter, and should be stuck with.-- Toddy1 20:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Support: The name Maria Clementina Sobieska is that which is used by most if not quite all historians especially those most interested in Jacobite matters. Frank McLynn, that most respected of Jacobite historains uses the name and that is good enough fo me. As I understand it the male version of the last name is Sobieski and the female Sobieska. After a first introduction the lady is usually referred to as simply Clementina Sobieska. De jure Queen Clementina is important to British history in that she was married to de jure King James III (& VIII) who was son of James II (& VII)(deposed in the so called "Glorious Revolution" of 1688). She was also the mother of Prince Charles Edward Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) who made an attempt in 1745/46 to restore his father to the throne of Britain. The attempt culminated in the battle of Culloden and the attempt failed.
It seems reasonable that the name should be anclicised when writing of Clementina in the context of British history. Indeed the matter is decided (except here!!) I own abuout 100 books on Jacobite history and I have never seen Clementina's name spelled in the Polish manner.
When a historian writes of the importance of this woman to Polish history (especially when that history is written in Polish) then the spelling Klementyna may well be appropriate. Stevelord Stevelord Stevelord —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevelord ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As long as there are proper links inserted, so that any reasonable form of the name that is typed into the search engine automatically links to this article, which then in its opening sentence gives alternative forms of her name, then the problem is minimal. I believe that as far as possible (and as far as it can be determined) the heading of the article should be rendered in the form in which the lady herself would have written it. 86.136.248.31 07:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Polish British is on my watchlist. Today, I learned that Saint Margaret of Scotland has been added to the list of "British Poles". That's news to me. Which led to the question of Bonnie Prince Charlie being on that list too, which led me here to this talk page. Here on English Wikipedia, Maria Clementina Sobieski, is called a Polish noblewoman. Even though her father was half Polish and half French, her mother, German on both sides. So how does that make her a Polish noblewoman? But following this thread further on Polish Wikipedia we are told there that she was born in Macerata, Italy. On English Wikipedia we are told she was born in Poland. Somebody's got to know where she was born. All the other Wikipedia language encyclopedia articles seem to be following suit with Ohlau, today Poland (since 1945), but not Poland in 1701. Btw, Polish WP gives her date of birth as July 17, 1701. English WP, July 18, 1702. But what's a day or a year anyway? It's only an encyclopedia. Could all the other articles be using Ohlau because they are simply copying off of the English article? Hope not. So then here's the conundrum. Is Maria Klementyna Sobieska aka Clementina Sobieski a Polish noblewoman? Was she born in Poland or Italy, or neither? Was she born in 1701 or 1702? On July 17th or July 18th? Are we putting together a factual and objective encyclopedia? Does it matter? Dr. Dan ( talk) 03:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I have added three citatations under "Marriage". I have also removed the "This article does not cite any sources" template, but am not sure if it was appropriate to do this. One of the citations was to a Wordpress page, which I know can be a problem; another was to an audio recording of a lecture. Also, although my citations covered most of the relevant section, they did not include the middle paragraph. For these reasons, I would be grateful if a someone - more experienced in these matters than I am - would review these edits. Thanks in advance. -- Mike Marchmont ( talk) 12:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)