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There's a thing which is rather unclear in these articles, when France obtained control over Syria, wasn't the entire thing called the French mandate of Syria, including Lebanon? I doubt Lebanon was considered separate back then, until Syria was split into five parts anyway, so mentioning Lebanon as separate from the rest of the Syrian mini states is kind of nationalist POV (Lebanese have a tendency to claim the country always existed), Lebanon was pretty much as important as the other, more ill-fated countries.
Or am I wrong, was it called the French mandate of Lebanon and Syria right from the beginning, or was Lebanon simply a region within Syria? Funkynusayri ( talk) 07:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Mount Lebanon was a separate entity. Some parts of Lebanon were considered part of Syria, mainly the Bekaa and Beirut, and the far edge of the North. But the rest was Mount Lebanon (70% of modern Lebanon). So it should be French Mandate of Lebanon and Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.137.120 ( talk) 20:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
During the Ottoman period (before 1918) there was no such thing as the independent state of Lebanon. Lebanon had been always part of Syria since the Roman period and maybe earlier.
Why isn't this fact shown in this article? and why is Lebanon treated in a different manner than the rest of the "Syrian new states" during the French mandate over Syria?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.86.12.39 ( talk) 21:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I can add some information to the article to make it clearer. I can also add some missing flags (like the flag of Damascus). Can I rewrite some parts of this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HD1986 ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the map should be changed. Hatay & Lebanon at that time were part of French mandate of "Syria." All the agreaments and the League of nation's papers refered only to a mandate of "Syria" but never to Lebanon or Hatay. France sought to break Syria into six states, but it succeded only in making three (although Hatay is not really a state today). HD1986 ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Great, I agree.
The article should be changed to "French mandate of Syria and Lebanon." They can't be treated separately because they started out as a single thing (the mandates of Syria and Lebanon). HD1986 ( talk) 17:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
True, but I think that some people may get confused between the term "Syria" in its modern sense and what "Syria" meant at that time.
HD1986 (
talk) 10:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that modern Lebanese would like the article that way.
HD1986 (
talk) 13:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, the borders between Damascus and Aleppo are not very accurate in our map. Compare with the map you referred to, Palmyra was within Aleppo, the Aleppo borders should be drawn further south in the Wiki map.
HD1986 (
talk) 14:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, this is a new map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mandate_of_Syria.png
This is more comprehensive and the borders are more accurate, what do you think?
I have a question about the flag in the info box, does the flag have to be the last flag used during the mandate? why shouldn't it be the first flag? HD1986 ( talk) 15:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually the flags usually associated with the mandate are ones carrying the French canton. See this page: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/sy-his1.html and this one: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/lb_his.html
I suggest going with the flag that included both Syria and Lebanon (the ugly one with the crescent), or the flag of the Syrian federation (better looking)... but the flag of the Syrian Republic, the current one, is not really representative of the mandate. HD1986 ( talk) 17:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The articles on the San Remo conference, Sykes–Picot Agreement, and McMahon-Hussein Correspondence cite declassified British and US documents which prove that the Sykes-Picot Agreement did not include Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Aleppo in the French zone of direct influence, and that the other Allies denied that the LoN mandates could be used as a justification to violate the treaty agreement with Hussein. harlan ( talk) 12:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I am changing the name to "French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon" because that was its official name. League of Nations Official Journal, Vol 3, August 1922, p1013. That place has the text too (English version), but can anyone find the text in a freely-accessible place? Zero talk 05:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Please return the article to its former name. This guy does not know what he's talking about. The text of the mandate charter does not have the word Lebanon in it at all, and so is the text of San Remo and all other texts. The texts are available online and you look them up yourself. Actually, even the wikipedia article on the mandate does not have the word Lebanon in the mandate's name. The name "Lebanon" was never known as a country name before the 1940's. Anybody with the slightest background on the subject knows this, this guy does not know anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.178.224.175 ( talk • contribs)
To harlan; and so were the Alwaite State, the Druze State, etc. Where are these now? LOL. You apparently do not know that each one of these states had its own constitution and was regarded as a separate nation from Syria. Actually something you should know is that Lebanon was the least stable among these states since it contained a large Muslim population that did not recognize Lebanon until the 1940's.
The "Arbiter's" decision was probably made after Aleppo and Damascus merged into one state, but that does not mean anything. A LOT of things were changed dramatically after the establishment of the mandates (e.g. a Jewish country was made out of a land that had only 7% Jews in 1920). All these changes are irrelevant here. What is relevant is that this mandate was established in 1920 under the name of "the French Mandate of Syria" (this page has the exact original text: San Remo conference) and it remained known so officially until at least 1925. Perhaps they later added the word Lebanon, and they also separated Jordan from Palestine etc. All these later changes can be mentioned in the article, but you can't change the name of the article because the name was modified five years after the mandate was established. Jordan was no longer part of the Mandate of Palestine by 1922, why don't you go to that article and change the map?!
So why don't you go to the Transjordan article and change its name to Jordan?!
I don't want to keep repeating myself: the name of the Mandate was changed later. The Mandate charter, San Remo, Lausanne, and all texts prior to at least 1926 did not have the word Lebanon at all. They only had the word Syria. So unless you are willing to change the map in the Mandate of Palestine article and the name of Transjordan to Jordan, you must restore the original name of this article for at least the sake of consistency.
Also, for your own information, Lebanon was not any different from the Alawite and Druze states until 1936. The Alwaite State was only briefly part of the Syrian Federation before 1925, but after that it became as independent as Lebanon. (BTW, France wanted Lebanon to join the Syrian Federation as well but the Maronites refused, read about that). Lebanon was never thought of as a definitely separate country until 1936. Before that it was just one Syrian state like the other states. Read about that period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.178.224.175 ( talk • contribs)
Do you know why I ignored your links? Because it is not so smart to bring me citations from the League of Nations JOURNAL dated two years after the establishment of the mandate while I am giving you the literal texts of San Remo, Lausanne, and the mandate charter. The original Mandate name was not established in the journal but it was established in San Remo. San Remo does not have the word Lebanon. And if you really have taken the effort to understand that period, you would have known that by 1922 the Syrian Federation had been established (without Lebanon and the Druze State because both rejected to join after being asked to), and the Mandate flag with the crescent had been abolished among other things.
So after 1922 not only the name had changed (if it really had), but also the flag and the states involved (e.g. Hatay was annexed to Aleppo during the federation; Aleppo and Damascus were united after 1925, etc.). AGAIN I REPEAT: a LOT of things changed during the mandate period, these include the flag of the mandate, the number of the states involved, their borders, and their flags, the borders of the mandate as a whole (the borders given in Sevres (1920) are different from those in Lausanne (1923)), etc.
So please let's not repeat again: the mandate in 1920 had the blue flag with the crescent, the name was Syria without Lebanon, and the states were as shown in the colorful map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.12 ( talk) 03:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I've seen this same problem many times in this "popular" encyclopedia. Someone with some background starts an article, and then other intruders start to mess with it. The name of this article was changed based on this statement:
This is a totally false and deceptive statement. The three "class A" mandates already had fixed and legal names by 1920-- they were called Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia. These names are found in San Remo and other texts. If the names were changed later (e.g. Mesopotamia was changed to Iraq, etc.) this does not mean that the mandates did not have names before that! This guy was trying to make a case for himself by blatantly lying. This is not constructive at all in an encyclopedia, and this is why Wikipedia should never be taken seriously.
The words Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia had been known in Europe for centuries. The words "Lebanon" and "Transjordan" were never known as country names before the mandate period. Lebanon is the name of a mountain, it was never a country name before. It is ignorant and deceptive to argue that calling Lebanon as part of Syria in 1920 was dubious and that the name "was only fixed" two years later. Lebanon was naturally part of Syria and it only began having a separate name DURING the mandate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.10 ( talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
If calling Lebanon part of Syria in 1920 was just a mistake, how come that France had initially a single flag for the whole of Syria and Lebanon? And how come it established the Bank of Syria and the Syrian custom authority in Lebanon? It is bothersome to argue with somebody who simply does not know what they are talking about. Please READ about that period. There are plenty of books. Lebanon was not any different from any other Syrian State until 1936. When France returned the Allawite State to Syria in 1936, many Allawites sent petitions to France protesting how the fate of an independent nation may be determined against its wishes; and after that an armed insurgency broke out in the Allawite territories and it lasted until WW2. When the treaty of 1936 was announced, the Maronites panicked and didn't calm down until France signed a similar treaty with them. I don't want to talk more, but please READ about that period from detailed sources.
This article treats Syria and Lebanon starting from 1920 (not 1923). If you think that the period from 1920 to 1923 does not count because the mandate was still not official, then the article needs to be changed. It should not include the period between 1920 and 1923 because you guys think this period was not officially mandate. Or am I still getting it wrong?
This is what San Remo says:
As far as I understand English, this means that in 1920 there was something called Syria and it was a mandate (in accordance with Article 22). If you think this was still unofficial, then why is it only the name of the mandate that you are so careful about keeping official in this article?? What about the flag and the states? These were different in 1923 from 1920.
So please make up your mind: what was the first year of the mandate?? was it 1920 or 1923? and what was the name of the mandate in that year? What was the flag? What were the states? And finally, why is there a separate article for the French Mandate of Lebanon??
So..??! What about what I said?
What was the first year of the mandate? was it 1920 or 1923? and what was the name of the mandate in that year? What was the flag? What were the states? And finally, why is there a separate article for the French Mandate of Lebanon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.10 ( talk) 09:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Germany undertakes to recognise the full force of the Treaties of Peace and Additional Conventions which may be concluded by the Allied and Associated Powers with the Powers who fought on the side of Germany and to recognise whatever dispositions may be made concerning the territories of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, of the Kingdom of Bulgaria and of the Ottoman Empire, and to recognise the new States within their frontiers as there laid down. [4]
The establishment of the State of Greater Lebanon occurred subsequent to the Armistice of Mudros, during an armistice occupation. There was no regime of mandates in place at that time, and there were no "A" mandates until 1922. Recognition of statehood is customarily retroactive to the first "Act of State". The Treaty of Lausanne contained a retroactive charge for a share of the Ottoman Public Debt payable by the government of the States that acquired territory from Turkey. The LoN Arbiter said that Lebanon already had its own nationality and constitution in 1925, although the latter may only have consisted of a body of fundamental laws or statutes. harlan ( talk) 13:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
It isn't for us to take positions, we should only report on what reliable sources state. So in fact we do not have to make up our minds about when the mandate started. The article should just lay out the facts has given in good sources, and to a limited extent the opinions of learned commentators. That's our job here. Zero talk 14:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) Article I of the Mandate Act of July 24th, 1922 required France to prepare and promulgate organic laws for Syria and Lebanon within three years after the coming into force of the Mandate.
Several sources indicate the process verbal of the San Remo Conference described the mandate as being for Syria and the Lebanon from the outset, based upon promises and declarations made before the San Remo Conference. As for names and dates: according to Stephen Longrigg, "the award of a Mandate to France for 'Syria and the Lebanon' [quotation marks in the original], made by the Principal Allied Powers on 28 April 1920, was accompanied by no detailed provisions; these remained to be drafted to the satisfaction of the Council of the League, by whom the award itself must be confirmed." ..."Draft Mandates for Syria-Lebanon, Palestine with Transjordan, and 'Iraq were published in August 1921, but were not resubmitted to the League Council until July 1922. The final text, which did not differ significantly as between territories save for the provisions covering Zionism in Palestine, was approved by the Council on 24 July 1922. But further discussions were still to be held between France and Italy, regarding the latter's rights in the territory, before the Mandate could be declared, on 29 February 1923, to have become effective: by which date all Turkish rights to Syria had been renounced under the Treaty of Lausanne, which was signed on 24 July. The last American scruples were removed by further Franco-American exchanges, ending with a Convention signed on 4 April 1924, and ratified on 13 July, covering American rights and the Open Door. Germany, Austria, and Belgium having undertaken to recognize whatever régime in Syria should be established, 13 July 1924 became the date upon which vanished the last diplomatic obstacle to the full exercise of the Mandate." Longrigg adds that "The principal Italian demand was for foreign judges in cases involving Italians, in the absence of the Capitulations. The French-Italian agreement was signed on 23 September 1923." Stephen Hemsley Longrigg, Syria and Lebanon under French Mandate (London: Oxford University Press, 1958) pages 109-110. See also Michael Graham Fry, Erik Goldstein, Richard Langhorne, "Guide to International Relations and Diplomacy", Continuum International, 2004, ISBN: 0826473016, page 199 [5]
Longrigg explains there were several Lebanese delegations at the Versailles Peace Conference and Clememceau gave them guarantees of Lebanese independence from Syria in October 1919. The subsequent provisional agreement between Clemenceau and Faisal provided for separate French Mandates for Syria and Lebanon in late 1919. When the Syrian Congress rejected the arrangement and declared natural Syria's independence (including Palestine), the Lebanese Christians repudiated all 'Sharifian' claims. On March 22 1920 representatives of the various communities in the Lebanon met at Ba'abda. With French endorsement, they proclaimed their own independence from Syria (before the San Remo Conference was convened). The Conference awarded single mandates to Great Britain for Iraq and Palestine and a single mandate to France for Syria and the Lebanon. "In mid-May Millerand reassured the Lebanese Delegation, then in Paris, that the creation of a separate Lebanon formed part of French policy." But on 10 July part of the Council of the Lebanon met and resolved to demand or proclaim its own complete sovereign independence, without French tutelage but with Syrian fraternal co-operation. The French arrested and deported them all. See Stephen Hemsley Longrigg, Syria and Lebanon under French Mandate (London: Oxford University Press, 1958) page 89-99. In the meantime, the mandates were only provisional and the details and boundaries were left up to the Allied Powers to decide as they saw fit. According to Mary Wilson, when the French overthrew Faisal the British suddenly wanted to know 'what is the "Syria" for which the French received a mandate at San Remo?' and 'does it include Transjordania?. Hubert Young to Ambassador Hardinge (Paris), 27 July 1920, FO 371/5254, cited in King Abdullah, Britain and the Making of Jordan, Mary Christina Wilson, Cambridge,1988,
ISBN
0-521-32421-1, page 44.
The Mandate system did not preclude the establishment of inland kingdoms, Arab states or confederations of Arab states. Great Britain quickly entered into treaty agreements with the Sharifians in Transjordan and Iraq. Only Syria and Lebanon had international personality as States. Archival documents from the French Foreign office reveal France had plans to enter into treaty relations with Syria and Lebanon similar to the British Hashemite arrangements. Syria considered the Alawaite and Druze enclaves to be an integral part of Syria, and France planned to reattach them prior to Syrian independence. [6] harlan ( talk) 05:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Here is a very clear example from 1920. The full title of the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920), signed on December 23, 1920, was "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia". The text contains the phrase "mandate xxx Syria and the Lebanon" three times, amusingly with "xxx" being different on each occasion: over, of, for. It also says once "mandates for Palestine and Syria". Given the importance of this agreement, the first attempt to define the extents of the mandates properly, it is clear that already by the end of 1920 "Syria and the Lebanon" was the preferred formal name. Zero talk 04:28, 14 May 2010 (UTC) American Journal of International Law (278 (1921)) lists the following in its chronicle of international events: "FRANCE. Decree issued creating body of controlling counsellors to administer the mandate in Syria and Lebanon" (published Journal Officiel, Dec 16, 1920). Zero talk 07:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Note to talk page watchers - a new article has been created at Arab Kingdom of Syria , and I'm no expert on the subject but it appears to be a topic which is partly covered in this article. I don't know if a merge is appropriate so I am hoping some experts can take a look. If the article should exist as a separate article then perhaps some contents can be moved out of here and linked over to Arab Kingdom of Syria . 7 08:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
It looks like nobody added any information to what I wrote in this page (which was very brief and insufficient IMO; there is lots to talk about), but as usual, the article has been 'politically' edited and the title changed. This is the worst thing about Wikipedia-- people jumping around and politically editing articles without adding anything to them. I don't think this is constructive editing. If you want to make a political point in an article, why you don't you at least have the decency and write something yourself instead of editing what other people write?
Anyway I don't mind moving the article. Actually I remember that I suggested that from the beginning but it was rejected. I don't know what happened now. But the current title is obviously lame. I suggest moving the article to 'French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon.' HD86 ( talk) 13:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't know who you are talking to, but all what you've been saying on this page is worthless. This is not a courtroom. We work here only by citations from secondary references. Original research from primary sources is not allowed here. All your nonsensical talk is worthless because it is all original research. The article needs to be moved to an acceptable name, and it also needs to be expanded like I said. There is much to talk about that is not mentioned, and most of it contradicts your idiosyncratic opinions BTW. Maps and scondary references continued to call the mandate the Mandate of Syria up to the 1930's or even later, so the name of French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon cannot be sustained with your worthless primary-source arguments. However, the name can be sustained on different grounds. Sadly I don't have the time to reform this article now, but perhaps I will do so after few months.-- HD86 ( talk) 01:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't have time to talk now, but the article has to be moved and reformed. I'll be back in a few months and we'll talk then. Citing whatever secondary sources you find is not good. I would hardly think of "The Yearbook of the League of Nations" published in 1921 as a secondary source; and even if you consider it so, this is not a good citation at all in this case.-- HD86 ( talk) 09:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I told you already this is not a courtroom. Your way of argument does not work here. It is true "The Yearbook of the League of Nations" is "legally" a secondary source, but this is not the kind of secondary source we want.-- HD86 ( talk) 10:08, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
What does "...and the issue is still disputed until the present time" mean? Does that mean it's no longer disputed? Or is this an exercise in redundancy?
24.208.224.73 ( talk) 19:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I said before I was going to add information, but I am not going to do that because this website is infected with vandals and as soon as I write something Israelis and whatever other politically motivated editors start distorting it.
Here are some references for those interested:
-- HD86 ( talk) 19:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I do NOT want to argue about the name anymore, especially not with those Israelis. I just want to point out for those who would take care of the article in the future (which obviously do not exist now since that several false edits have been made to the article; those Israeli users are not here to guard the article, they are here to ruin it) I want to point out that the current article name must be changed because it is not a common name and is not used in secondary sources. The Israeli guys got this name from a League of Nations official journal from the 1920's. This article also cannot substitute for the two countries of Syria and Lebanon because the phrase "the Lebanon" in "French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon" does not mean Lebanon the country but it means Lebanon the mountain (c.f. Lebanon and Mount Lebanon). Therefore, the current article name is actually just a lame and extremely uncommon variant of "French Mandate of Syria". Thus, this article cannot cover the two countires of Syria and Lebanon. The article must be immediately moved back to "French Mandate of Syria", and after that a new discussion must be opened to decide whether it is better to have two articles for the "French Mandate of Syria" and the "French Mandate of Lebanon" or to have a single article for both. Farewell.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:16, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The point is that the image Harlan trying to paint that there was distinctly "two" nations in the mandate area is absolute bullshit. There was no nations at that time. There was different religious identities, different regional identities (e.g. Aleppo vs. Damascus), and different social idenities (sedentary vs. nomads of the Syrian Desert, who never accepted the Syrian idenitiy until the late 1940's). The independence of Lebanon was always in question and always on the negotians table just like the independence of the Alawite state. Harlan does not understand that this article should explain the history regradless of what the official documents say. The Maronites obviously weren't considering themselves Syrian, but the Maronite were NOT a Lebanese nation, they were a religious sect in the Mandate of Syria. Lebanon does not equate to Matonites. The Marnoites in the 1920's were only about 50% of the so-called Lebanses nation. 50% of the "Leabnese nation" were calling themselves Syrians, and many of the "Syrian nation" were NOT calling themselves Syrian.
I don't want to talk anymore. Just read the books.-- HD86 ( talk) 18:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
How is all this related to what I've been saying? Did you read what I said? What do you want exactly? You keep repeating the same exact irrelevant talk. What you are saying has been said many times before. Why do you keep repeating the same long and worthless dissertation? Are you trying to filibuster the discussion? This does not work, OK?
I am going to list the points one last time. You should answer briefly and adress the points I am telling you exactly. Otherwise I am going to ignore what you write because it is filibustering. I hope you understand that.
This is the story of Lebanon's creation [18], unfortunatly it is incomplete preview. Reading this book will help the reader understand how the "two nations" were formed by France. These were not real nations but rather political etities arbitrarily carved out from a jungle of different religious communities. Lebanon more than any of the other states was arbitrary and heterogeneous in nature. To say that in the Mandate of Syria there existed "two distinct nations" is real absurdity.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:23, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
The mandate officially started in 1920, but in reality Syria was already occupied by the Birtish in 1918, and a year after the Syrian coast was ceded to France. The Arab kingdom in Damascus (which claimed sovereignty over all of Greater Syria, but in reality only held the inner Syrian track from southern Transjordan to Aleppo) was never recognized as an official state as far as I know. So I believe the mandate's first year was actually 1918, despite the fact that it only became official in 1920. By 1919, France had already established a headquarters in Beirut and started printing Syrian currency.
As for the end of the mandate, it certainly was after 1939, so the Hatay flag can't be put in the info box because by 1943 Hatay had been part of Turkey proper.-- HD86 ( talk) 04:32, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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The statement that has been written for the section has stated: "On September 27, 1941, France proclaimed, by virtue of, and within the framework of the Mandate, the independence and sovereignty of the Syrian State."
The actually statement made in accordance to the legal document is as follows: "the independence and sovereignty of Syria and Lebanon will not affect the juridical situation as it results from the Mandate Act. Indeed, this situation could be changed only with the agreement of the Council of the League of Nations, with the consent of the Government of the United States, a signatory of the Franco-American Convention of April 4, 1924, and only after the conclusion between the French Government and the Syrian and Lebanese Governments of treaties duly ratified in accordance with the laws of the French Republic."
There is no actual admission made in that whole part that situates France's actual proclamation of the independence of Syria and it also goes against the current lay work of events that took place, since France had fallen to Germany in 1940 with the subsequent establishment of the Vichy regime. Meanwhile, the Free French, at least also noted in the same article on wikipedia, were occupying the Syrian Mandate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.76.52 ( talk) 05:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I added the tag because the article does a poor job at explaining clearly what exactly happened during a very complex period. I suggest it is split into an article about the mandate and another about the states. Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
An article Syrian Federation would help clear up the mess this article is in by pulling the complex history from 1922-30 out into a separate article, followed then by Syrian Republic (1930–1958). Comments welcome. Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
As per comments above, detail about the history of the administration in Syria has been demerged to two main articles -> Modern history of Syria and State of Syria (1922-30). Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
User:Minorities observer has created subsections for Al jazira and Golan in the States created during the French Mandate section. Though these two areas were never states. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 22:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with the recent edits which have turned this from an article about the mandate document to an article about a "country". The structure for similar situations we have now is (1) an article about a mandate document and (2) articles about the "countries" or "territories":
Greyshark, if you feel strongly about this change, please could you justify it here and then let's discuss. Although I disagree with what the article now looks like, I don't intend to revert before we've had a chance to discuss. Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 16:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
French Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon → French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon – Correct title "of"-->"for" to match the official document (shown at the lead image on top right of page). Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Move as agreed. Consensus to move all is clear, with slight preference (preferred by Srnec, others are neutral on this) for not including "legal instrument" in the latter two. ( non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 04:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Listing actual moves for posterity post-close:
– Removing the country of the mandate-holder per WP:CONCISE (there is no confusion possible, since only one of each of these mandates ever existed) and WP:PRECISE (the new names are the exact official names of the mandates - see the document images at the top of each of the articles). These are our only three articles on League of Nations mandate documents, so all titles need the same structure to remain consistent. Onceinawhile ( talk) 17:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash ( talk) 02:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
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There's a thing which is rather unclear in these articles, when France obtained control over Syria, wasn't the entire thing called the French mandate of Syria, including Lebanon? I doubt Lebanon was considered separate back then, until Syria was split into five parts anyway, so mentioning Lebanon as separate from the rest of the Syrian mini states is kind of nationalist POV (Lebanese have a tendency to claim the country always existed), Lebanon was pretty much as important as the other, more ill-fated countries.
Or am I wrong, was it called the French mandate of Lebanon and Syria right from the beginning, or was Lebanon simply a region within Syria? Funkynusayri ( talk) 07:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Mount Lebanon was a separate entity. Some parts of Lebanon were considered part of Syria, mainly the Bekaa and Beirut, and the far edge of the North. But the rest was Mount Lebanon (70% of modern Lebanon). So it should be French Mandate of Lebanon and Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.137.120 ( talk) 20:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
During the Ottoman period (before 1918) there was no such thing as the independent state of Lebanon. Lebanon had been always part of Syria since the Roman period and maybe earlier.
Why isn't this fact shown in this article? and why is Lebanon treated in a different manner than the rest of the "Syrian new states" during the French mandate over Syria?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.86.12.39 ( talk) 21:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I can add some information to the article to make it clearer. I can also add some missing flags (like the flag of Damascus). Can I rewrite some parts of this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HD1986 ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the map should be changed. Hatay & Lebanon at that time were part of French mandate of "Syria." All the agreaments and the League of nation's papers refered only to a mandate of "Syria" but never to Lebanon or Hatay. France sought to break Syria into six states, but it succeded only in making three (although Hatay is not really a state today). HD1986 ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Great, I agree.
The article should be changed to "French mandate of Syria and Lebanon." They can't be treated separately because they started out as a single thing (the mandates of Syria and Lebanon). HD1986 ( talk) 17:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
True, but I think that some people may get confused between the term "Syria" in its modern sense and what "Syria" meant at that time.
HD1986 (
talk) 10:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that modern Lebanese would like the article that way.
HD1986 (
talk) 13:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, the borders between Damascus and Aleppo are not very accurate in our map. Compare with the map you referred to, Palmyra was within Aleppo, the Aleppo borders should be drawn further south in the Wiki map.
HD1986 (
talk) 14:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, this is a new map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mandate_of_Syria.png
This is more comprehensive and the borders are more accurate, what do you think?
I have a question about the flag in the info box, does the flag have to be the last flag used during the mandate? why shouldn't it be the first flag? HD1986 ( talk) 15:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually the flags usually associated with the mandate are ones carrying the French canton. See this page: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/sy-his1.html and this one: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/lb_his.html
I suggest going with the flag that included both Syria and Lebanon (the ugly one with the crescent), or the flag of the Syrian federation (better looking)... but the flag of the Syrian Republic, the current one, is not really representative of the mandate. HD1986 ( talk) 17:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The articles on the San Remo conference, Sykes–Picot Agreement, and McMahon-Hussein Correspondence cite declassified British and US documents which prove that the Sykes-Picot Agreement did not include Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Aleppo in the French zone of direct influence, and that the other Allies denied that the LoN mandates could be used as a justification to violate the treaty agreement with Hussein. harlan ( talk) 12:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I am changing the name to "French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon" because that was its official name. League of Nations Official Journal, Vol 3, August 1922, p1013. That place has the text too (English version), but can anyone find the text in a freely-accessible place? Zero talk 05:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Please return the article to its former name. This guy does not know what he's talking about. The text of the mandate charter does not have the word Lebanon in it at all, and so is the text of San Remo and all other texts. The texts are available online and you look them up yourself. Actually, even the wikipedia article on the mandate does not have the word Lebanon in the mandate's name. The name "Lebanon" was never known as a country name before the 1940's. Anybody with the slightest background on the subject knows this, this guy does not know anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.178.224.175 ( talk • contribs)
To harlan; and so were the Alwaite State, the Druze State, etc. Where are these now? LOL. You apparently do not know that each one of these states had its own constitution and was regarded as a separate nation from Syria. Actually something you should know is that Lebanon was the least stable among these states since it contained a large Muslim population that did not recognize Lebanon until the 1940's.
The "Arbiter's" decision was probably made after Aleppo and Damascus merged into one state, but that does not mean anything. A LOT of things were changed dramatically after the establishment of the mandates (e.g. a Jewish country was made out of a land that had only 7% Jews in 1920). All these changes are irrelevant here. What is relevant is that this mandate was established in 1920 under the name of "the French Mandate of Syria" (this page has the exact original text: San Remo conference) and it remained known so officially until at least 1925. Perhaps they later added the word Lebanon, and they also separated Jordan from Palestine etc. All these later changes can be mentioned in the article, but you can't change the name of the article because the name was modified five years after the mandate was established. Jordan was no longer part of the Mandate of Palestine by 1922, why don't you go to that article and change the map?!
So why don't you go to the Transjordan article and change its name to Jordan?!
I don't want to keep repeating myself: the name of the Mandate was changed later. The Mandate charter, San Remo, Lausanne, and all texts prior to at least 1926 did not have the word Lebanon at all. They only had the word Syria. So unless you are willing to change the map in the Mandate of Palestine article and the name of Transjordan to Jordan, you must restore the original name of this article for at least the sake of consistency.
Also, for your own information, Lebanon was not any different from the Alawite and Druze states until 1936. The Alwaite State was only briefly part of the Syrian Federation before 1925, but after that it became as independent as Lebanon. (BTW, France wanted Lebanon to join the Syrian Federation as well but the Maronites refused, read about that). Lebanon was never thought of as a definitely separate country until 1936. Before that it was just one Syrian state like the other states. Read about that period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.178.224.175 ( talk • contribs)
Do you know why I ignored your links? Because it is not so smart to bring me citations from the League of Nations JOURNAL dated two years after the establishment of the mandate while I am giving you the literal texts of San Remo, Lausanne, and the mandate charter. The original Mandate name was not established in the journal but it was established in San Remo. San Remo does not have the word Lebanon. And if you really have taken the effort to understand that period, you would have known that by 1922 the Syrian Federation had been established (without Lebanon and the Druze State because both rejected to join after being asked to), and the Mandate flag with the crescent had been abolished among other things.
So after 1922 not only the name had changed (if it really had), but also the flag and the states involved (e.g. Hatay was annexed to Aleppo during the federation; Aleppo and Damascus were united after 1925, etc.). AGAIN I REPEAT: a LOT of things changed during the mandate period, these include the flag of the mandate, the number of the states involved, their borders, and their flags, the borders of the mandate as a whole (the borders given in Sevres (1920) are different from those in Lausanne (1923)), etc.
So please let's not repeat again: the mandate in 1920 had the blue flag with the crescent, the name was Syria without Lebanon, and the states were as shown in the colorful map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.12 ( talk) 03:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I've seen this same problem many times in this "popular" encyclopedia. Someone with some background starts an article, and then other intruders start to mess with it. The name of this article was changed based on this statement:
This is a totally false and deceptive statement. The three "class A" mandates already had fixed and legal names by 1920-- they were called Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia. These names are found in San Remo and other texts. If the names were changed later (e.g. Mesopotamia was changed to Iraq, etc.) this does not mean that the mandates did not have names before that! This guy was trying to make a case for himself by blatantly lying. This is not constructive at all in an encyclopedia, and this is why Wikipedia should never be taken seriously.
The words Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia had been known in Europe for centuries. The words "Lebanon" and "Transjordan" were never known as country names before the mandate period. Lebanon is the name of a mountain, it was never a country name before. It is ignorant and deceptive to argue that calling Lebanon as part of Syria in 1920 was dubious and that the name "was only fixed" two years later. Lebanon was naturally part of Syria and it only began having a separate name DURING the mandate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.10 ( talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
If calling Lebanon part of Syria in 1920 was just a mistake, how come that France had initially a single flag for the whole of Syria and Lebanon? And how come it established the Bank of Syria and the Syrian custom authority in Lebanon? It is bothersome to argue with somebody who simply does not know what they are talking about. Please READ about that period. There are plenty of books. Lebanon was not any different from any other Syrian State until 1936. When France returned the Allawite State to Syria in 1936, many Allawites sent petitions to France protesting how the fate of an independent nation may be determined against its wishes; and after that an armed insurgency broke out in the Allawite territories and it lasted until WW2. When the treaty of 1936 was announced, the Maronites panicked and didn't calm down until France signed a similar treaty with them. I don't want to talk more, but please READ about that period from detailed sources.
This article treats Syria and Lebanon starting from 1920 (not 1923). If you think that the period from 1920 to 1923 does not count because the mandate was still not official, then the article needs to be changed. It should not include the period between 1920 and 1923 because you guys think this period was not officially mandate. Or am I still getting it wrong?
This is what San Remo says:
As far as I understand English, this means that in 1920 there was something called Syria and it was a mandate (in accordance with Article 22). If you think this was still unofficial, then why is it only the name of the mandate that you are so careful about keeping official in this article?? What about the flag and the states? These were different in 1923 from 1920.
So please make up your mind: what was the first year of the mandate?? was it 1920 or 1923? and what was the name of the mandate in that year? What was the flag? What were the states? And finally, why is there a separate article for the French Mandate of Lebanon??
So..??! What about what I said?
What was the first year of the mandate? was it 1920 or 1923? and what was the name of the mandate in that year? What was the flag? What were the states? And finally, why is there a separate article for the French Mandate of Lebanon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.255.10 ( talk) 09:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Germany undertakes to recognise the full force of the Treaties of Peace and Additional Conventions which may be concluded by the Allied and Associated Powers with the Powers who fought on the side of Germany and to recognise whatever dispositions may be made concerning the territories of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, of the Kingdom of Bulgaria and of the Ottoman Empire, and to recognise the new States within their frontiers as there laid down. [4]
The establishment of the State of Greater Lebanon occurred subsequent to the Armistice of Mudros, during an armistice occupation. There was no regime of mandates in place at that time, and there were no "A" mandates until 1922. Recognition of statehood is customarily retroactive to the first "Act of State". The Treaty of Lausanne contained a retroactive charge for a share of the Ottoman Public Debt payable by the government of the States that acquired territory from Turkey. The LoN Arbiter said that Lebanon already had its own nationality and constitution in 1925, although the latter may only have consisted of a body of fundamental laws or statutes. harlan ( talk) 13:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
It isn't for us to take positions, we should only report on what reliable sources state. So in fact we do not have to make up our minds about when the mandate started. The article should just lay out the facts has given in good sources, and to a limited extent the opinions of learned commentators. That's our job here. Zero talk 14:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) Article I of the Mandate Act of July 24th, 1922 required France to prepare and promulgate organic laws for Syria and Lebanon within three years after the coming into force of the Mandate.
Several sources indicate the process verbal of the San Remo Conference described the mandate as being for Syria and the Lebanon from the outset, based upon promises and declarations made before the San Remo Conference. As for names and dates: according to Stephen Longrigg, "the award of a Mandate to France for 'Syria and the Lebanon' [quotation marks in the original], made by the Principal Allied Powers on 28 April 1920, was accompanied by no detailed provisions; these remained to be drafted to the satisfaction of the Council of the League, by whom the award itself must be confirmed." ..."Draft Mandates for Syria-Lebanon, Palestine with Transjordan, and 'Iraq were published in August 1921, but were not resubmitted to the League Council until July 1922. The final text, which did not differ significantly as between territories save for the provisions covering Zionism in Palestine, was approved by the Council on 24 July 1922. But further discussions were still to be held between France and Italy, regarding the latter's rights in the territory, before the Mandate could be declared, on 29 February 1923, to have become effective: by which date all Turkish rights to Syria had been renounced under the Treaty of Lausanne, which was signed on 24 July. The last American scruples were removed by further Franco-American exchanges, ending with a Convention signed on 4 April 1924, and ratified on 13 July, covering American rights and the Open Door. Germany, Austria, and Belgium having undertaken to recognize whatever régime in Syria should be established, 13 July 1924 became the date upon which vanished the last diplomatic obstacle to the full exercise of the Mandate." Longrigg adds that "The principal Italian demand was for foreign judges in cases involving Italians, in the absence of the Capitulations. The French-Italian agreement was signed on 23 September 1923." Stephen Hemsley Longrigg, Syria and Lebanon under French Mandate (London: Oxford University Press, 1958) pages 109-110. See also Michael Graham Fry, Erik Goldstein, Richard Langhorne, "Guide to International Relations and Diplomacy", Continuum International, 2004, ISBN: 0826473016, page 199 [5]
Longrigg explains there were several Lebanese delegations at the Versailles Peace Conference and Clememceau gave them guarantees of Lebanese independence from Syria in October 1919. The subsequent provisional agreement between Clemenceau and Faisal provided for separate French Mandates for Syria and Lebanon in late 1919. When the Syrian Congress rejected the arrangement and declared natural Syria's independence (including Palestine), the Lebanese Christians repudiated all 'Sharifian' claims. On March 22 1920 representatives of the various communities in the Lebanon met at Ba'abda. With French endorsement, they proclaimed their own independence from Syria (before the San Remo Conference was convened). The Conference awarded single mandates to Great Britain for Iraq and Palestine and a single mandate to France for Syria and the Lebanon. "In mid-May Millerand reassured the Lebanese Delegation, then in Paris, that the creation of a separate Lebanon formed part of French policy." But on 10 July part of the Council of the Lebanon met and resolved to demand or proclaim its own complete sovereign independence, without French tutelage but with Syrian fraternal co-operation. The French arrested and deported them all. See Stephen Hemsley Longrigg, Syria and Lebanon under French Mandate (London: Oxford University Press, 1958) page 89-99. In the meantime, the mandates were only provisional and the details and boundaries were left up to the Allied Powers to decide as they saw fit. According to Mary Wilson, when the French overthrew Faisal the British suddenly wanted to know 'what is the "Syria" for which the French received a mandate at San Remo?' and 'does it include Transjordania?. Hubert Young to Ambassador Hardinge (Paris), 27 July 1920, FO 371/5254, cited in King Abdullah, Britain and the Making of Jordan, Mary Christina Wilson, Cambridge,1988,
ISBN
0-521-32421-1, page 44.
The Mandate system did not preclude the establishment of inland kingdoms, Arab states or confederations of Arab states. Great Britain quickly entered into treaty agreements with the Sharifians in Transjordan and Iraq. Only Syria and Lebanon had international personality as States. Archival documents from the French Foreign office reveal France had plans to enter into treaty relations with Syria and Lebanon similar to the British Hashemite arrangements. Syria considered the Alawaite and Druze enclaves to be an integral part of Syria, and France planned to reattach them prior to Syrian independence. [6] harlan ( talk) 05:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Here is a very clear example from 1920. The full title of the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920), signed on December 23, 1920, was "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia". The text contains the phrase "mandate xxx Syria and the Lebanon" three times, amusingly with "xxx" being different on each occasion: over, of, for. It also says once "mandates for Palestine and Syria". Given the importance of this agreement, the first attempt to define the extents of the mandates properly, it is clear that already by the end of 1920 "Syria and the Lebanon" was the preferred formal name. Zero talk 04:28, 14 May 2010 (UTC) American Journal of International Law (278 (1921)) lists the following in its chronicle of international events: "FRANCE. Decree issued creating body of controlling counsellors to administer the mandate in Syria and Lebanon" (published Journal Officiel, Dec 16, 1920). Zero talk 07:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Note to talk page watchers - a new article has been created at Arab Kingdom of Syria , and I'm no expert on the subject but it appears to be a topic which is partly covered in this article. I don't know if a merge is appropriate so I am hoping some experts can take a look. If the article should exist as a separate article then perhaps some contents can be moved out of here and linked over to Arab Kingdom of Syria . 7 08:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
It looks like nobody added any information to what I wrote in this page (which was very brief and insufficient IMO; there is lots to talk about), but as usual, the article has been 'politically' edited and the title changed. This is the worst thing about Wikipedia-- people jumping around and politically editing articles without adding anything to them. I don't think this is constructive editing. If you want to make a political point in an article, why you don't you at least have the decency and write something yourself instead of editing what other people write?
Anyway I don't mind moving the article. Actually I remember that I suggested that from the beginning but it was rejected. I don't know what happened now. But the current title is obviously lame. I suggest moving the article to 'French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon.' HD86 ( talk) 13:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't know who you are talking to, but all what you've been saying on this page is worthless. This is not a courtroom. We work here only by citations from secondary references. Original research from primary sources is not allowed here. All your nonsensical talk is worthless because it is all original research. The article needs to be moved to an acceptable name, and it also needs to be expanded like I said. There is much to talk about that is not mentioned, and most of it contradicts your idiosyncratic opinions BTW. Maps and scondary references continued to call the mandate the Mandate of Syria up to the 1930's or even later, so the name of French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon cannot be sustained with your worthless primary-source arguments. However, the name can be sustained on different grounds. Sadly I don't have the time to reform this article now, but perhaps I will do so after few months.-- HD86 ( talk) 01:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't have time to talk now, but the article has to be moved and reformed. I'll be back in a few months and we'll talk then. Citing whatever secondary sources you find is not good. I would hardly think of "The Yearbook of the League of Nations" published in 1921 as a secondary source; and even if you consider it so, this is not a good citation at all in this case.-- HD86 ( talk) 09:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I told you already this is not a courtroom. Your way of argument does not work here. It is true "The Yearbook of the League of Nations" is "legally" a secondary source, but this is not the kind of secondary source we want.-- HD86 ( talk) 10:08, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
What does "...and the issue is still disputed until the present time" mean? Does that mean it's no longer disputed? Or is this an exercise in redundancy?
24.208.224.73 ( talk) 19:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I said before I was going to add information, but I am not going to do that because this website is infected with vandals and as soon as I write something Israelis and whatever other politically motivated editors start distorting it.
Here are some references for those interested:
-- HD86 ( talk) 19:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I do NOT want to argue about the name anymore, especially not with those Israelis. I just want to point out for those who would take care of the article in the future (which obviously do not exist now since that several false edits have been made to the article; those Israeli users are not here to guard the article, they are here to ruin it) I want to point out that the current article name must be changed because it is not a common name and is not used in secondary sources. The Israeli guys got this name from a League of Nations official journal from the 1920's. This article also cannot substitute for the two countries of Syria and Lebanon because the phrase "the Lebanon" in "French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon" does not mean Lebanon the country but it means Lebanon the mountain (c.f. Lebanon and Mount Lebanon). Therefore, the current article name is actually just a lame and extremely uncommon variant of "French Mandate of Syria". Thus, this article cannot cover the two countires of Syria and Lebanon. The article must be immediately moved back to "French Mandate of Syria", and after that a new discussion must be opened to decide whether it is better to have two articles for the "French Mandate of Syria" and the "French Mandate of Lebanon" or to have a single article for both. Farewell.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:16, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The point is that the image Harlan trying to paint that there was distinctly "two" nations in the mandate area is absolute bullshit. There was no nations at that time. There was different religious identities, different regional identities (e.g. Aleppo vs. Damascus), and different social idenities (sedentary vs. nomads of the Syrian Desert, who never accepted the Syrian idenitiy until the late 1940's). The independence of Lebanon was always in question and always on the negotians table just like the independence of the Alawite state. Harlan does not understand that this article should explain the history regradless of what the official documents say. The Maronites obviously weren't considering themselves Syrian, but the Maronite were NOT a Lebanese nation, they were a religious sect in the Mandate of Syria. Lebanon does not equate to Matonites. The Marnoites in the 1920's were only about 50% of the so-called Lebanses nation. 50% of the "Leabnese nation" were calling themselves Syrians, and many of the "Syrian nation" were NOT calling themselves Syrian.
I don't want to talk anymore. Just read the books.-- HD86 ( talk) 18:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
How is all this related to what I've been saying? Did you read what I said? What do you want exactly? You keep repeating the same exact irrelevant talk. What you are saying has been said many times before. Why do you keep repeating the same long and worthless dissertation? Are you trying to filibuster the discussion? This does not work, OK?
I am going to list the points one last time. You should answer briefly and adress the points I am telling you exactly. Otherwise I am going to ignore what you write because it is filibustering. I hope you understand that.
This is the story of Lebanon's creation [18], unfortunatly it is incomplete preview. Reading this book will help the reader understand how the "two nations" were formed by France. These were not real nations but rather political etities arbitrarily carved out from a jungle of different religious communities. Lebanon more than any of the other states was arbitrary and heterogeneous in nature. To say that in the Mandate of Syria there existed "two distinct nations" is real absurdity.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:23, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
The mandate officially started in 1920, but in reality Syria was already occupied by the Birtish in 1918, and a year after the Syrian coast was ceded to France. The Arab kingdom in Damascus (which claimed sovereignty over all of Greater Syria, but in reality only held the inner Syrian track from southern Transjordan to Aleppo) was never recognized as an official state as far as I know. So I believe the mandate's first year was actually 1918, despite the fact that it only became official in 1920. By 1919, France had already established a headquarters in Beirut and started printing Syrian currency.
As for the end of the mandate, it certainly was after 1939, so the Hatay flag can't be put in the info box because by 1943 Hatay had been part of Turkey proper.-- HD86 ( talk) 04:32, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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The statement that has been written for the section has stated: "On September 27, 1941, France proclaimed, by virtue of, and within the framework of the Mandate, the independence and sovereignty of the Syrian State."
The actually statement made in accordance to the legal document is as follows: "the independence and sovereignty of Syria and Lebanon will not affect the juridical situation as it results from the Mandate Act. Indeed, this situation could be changed only with the agreement of the Council of the League of Nations, with the consent of the Government of the United States, a signatory of the Franco-American Convention of April 4, 1924, and only after the conclusion between the French Government and the Syrian and Lebanese Governments of treaties duly ratified in accordance with the laws of the French Republic."
There is no actual admission made in that whole part that situates France's actual proclamation of the independence of Syria and it also goes against the current lay work of events that took place, since France had fallen to Germany in 1940 with the subsequent establishment of the Vichy regime. Meanwhile, the Free French, at least also noted in the same article on wikipedia, were occupying the Syrian Mandate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.76.52 ( talk) 05:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I added the tag because the article does a poor job at explaining clearly what exactly happened during a very complex period. I suggest it is split into an article about the mandate and another about the states. Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
An article Syrian Federation would help clear up the mess this article is in by pulling the complex history from 1922-30 out into a separate article, followed then by Syrian Republic (1930–1958). Comments welcome. Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
As per comments above, detail about the history of the administration in Syria has been demerged to two main articles -> Modern history of Syria and State of Syria (1922-30). Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
User:Minorities observer has created subsections for Al jazira and Golan in the States created during the French Mandate section. Though these two areas were never states. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 22:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with the recent edits which have turned this from an article about the mandate document to an article about a "country". The structure for similar situations we have now is (1) an article about a mandate document and (2) articles about the "countries" or "territories":
Greyshark, if you feel strongly about this change, please could you justify it here and then let's discuss. Although I disagree with what the article now looks like, I don't intend to revert before we've had a chance to discuss. Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 16:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
French Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon → French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon – Correct title "of"-->"for" to match the official document (shown at the lead image on top right of page). Oncenawhile ( talk) 22:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Move as agreed. Consensus to move all is clear, with slight preference (preferred by Srnec, others are neutral on this) for not including "legal instrument" in the latter two. ( non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 04:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Listing actual moves for posterity post-close:
– Removing the country of the mandate-holder per WP:CONCISE (there is no confusion possible, since only one of each of these mandates ever existed) and WP:PRECISE (the new names are the exact official names of the mandates - see the document images at the top of each of the articles). These are our only three articles on League of Nations mandate documents, so all titles need the same structure to remain consistent. Onceinawhile ( talk) 17:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash ( talk) 02:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)