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This archive page covers approximately the dates between Novemeber 21 2005 and 15 January 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Macedonia (Greece)/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Jkelly 23:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The following two paragraphs are being cut here for proper referencing.
-
I'd suggest that information on the Treaty of Bucharest belongs in this article as does (a lot more) information about the population exchange, but am concerned that the above is oddly worded. Claims of the Ottoman Empire enforcing Hellenization would need to be very carefully referenced. Jkelly 16:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The majority of Greeks living in Northern Greece are the decendents of Greek (Pontic) refugees who have arrived from Turkey in the 1920's. This has caused major population changes in Greek Macedonia which made the Macedonians a minority in their own land. Although Greeks today argue that the modern Macedonians have no right to use Macedonian symbols because they are the "decendents of Slavs" who have arrived in the 5th century AD, there is no doubt that they inhabited Macedonia before the Greeks.
Ok Jkelly ?
The above needs to be cited. Jkelly 03:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
27 November 2005, 1 December 2005 now we know who did it... +MATIA ☎ 00:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I came across a source, citing the book Who are the Macedonians? (Hugh Poulton, 1994), which says: "Macedonia [the geographical region] is not understood to include the peninsula of Khalkidiki". Can anyone confirm this? -- ChrisO 11:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Chalcidice lies within the precinct of Central Macedonia periphery, apart from the Mount Athos which has a self-governing system (mentioned in Autonomy, a better word in greek is Αυτοδιοίκητο - there are differences between autonomy and the self-goverment status of the Holy Mountain). I must also point out that the term "monastic republic" is probably very wrong. +MATIA ☎ 13:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Is this term used anywhere other than by Republic of Macedonia sources and Wikipedia? Jkelly 02:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Unless you don't know the answers to those questions - in that case I apologise (I had presumed that you knew them). +MATIA ☎ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
The term Aegean Macedonia , as well as Pirin and Vardar Macedonia, is used by many non Macedonian sources including Britannica and Encarta Encyclopedia. - User:Makedon45
I am not certain that the article's current word usage is ideal. I do, however, feel very strongly that this article should not present to a hypothetical uninformed reader the idea that there is a language "Macedonian" that is in some ambiguous relationship to this region. Identifying the language of the Republic of Macedonia as Slavic, I suggest, helps keep it clear to the reader that they, for instance, don't need to learn it to order coffee in Thessaloniki. There is a significant danger that, because the language is called "Macedonian" that we can unintentionally mislead readers into thinking that there is a continuity between the Ancient Macedonian language and the modern Slavic one. A long discussion about this would be an odd thing to include in this article, but simply identifying the language as being part of the Slavic family of languages adds some clarity. To summarize, I want to encourage editors to imagine an uninformed English reader as the audience, not someone well-versed in the history of the region. Jkelly 17:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC) User:ChrisO's editing has once again improved the article. Jkelly 17:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why was the following cut? "Though mostly mountainous, the region also encompasses the valleys of the Aliákmon, Axiós, Nestos, and Strymon rivers, all of which drain into the Aegean Sea." Jkelly 23:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Can the following paragraph be properly referenced?
"Following the 1913 Treatry of Bucharest, the original Macedonian place names that existed in Aegean Macedonia were gradually changed to Greek names, as well as the surnames of all Macedonians, according to the 1927 Greek Government Legislative Edict. The Greek Government Gazette declared that "there are not any non-Greek people in Greece". This was part of a process called "Hellenization" whereby all the names of Macedonian villages, towns, regions, lakes, rivers, mountains, etc. were changed, together with the surnames of ethnic Macedonians, into Greek-sounding names. For example, the village of "Lerigovo", on the Chalcidice peninsula, was later renamed to "Arnaía" by Greek officials in 1927. Although many modern Greeks will argue that the Greek name was its original name before the Slav invasion of the 5th century AD, it is certain villages, like this one, had never existed in Ancient times but were originally established by the Slavs and other invaders." Jkelly 17:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem:
[ [2]]
Its a pdf file "Denying Ethnic Identity The Macedonians of Greece". The changing of Macedonian Slavic names into Greek ones is somewhere around on page 5 and 6
No, its free, download the pdf file "Denying Ethnic Identity" try this link [ [3]]
I added in demographics
Before World War I, Macedonians were the largest ethnic group in Aegean Macedonia,10 but between 1913 and 1926 major population shifts significantly changed the demographic make-up of the region. After the region's incorporation into the Greek state in 1913, many Greek civil servants, teachers and military personnel moved north and settled there. Moreover, during the post- Balkan Wars period, thousands of Macedonians and Serbs voluntarily left Greek Macedonia for Bulgaria; the Minority Rights Group puts the number at about 15,000. After the Greek-Bulgarian convention of November 1919, between 52,000 and 72,000 additional Slavs left for Bulgaria.11 Simultaneously, hundreds of thousands of Greeks from Turkey, Bulgaria and Vardar Macedonia were resettled in northern Greece; estimates of the numbers involved range from 500,000 to 618,00012. Thus the ethnic character of Aegean Macedonia changed greatly; Macedonians became a numerical minority, and the number of people in Aegean Macedonia who had "a sense of Greek national identity," rather than Macedonian identity, increased substantially.13
This article is from the HRW, same pdf file I mentioned above (pg 5) "Denying Ethnic Identity"
[ [4]]
The paragraph above concerning the Macedonians as a disticnt ethnic group is from a neutral source, Human Rights Watch International, so stop putting in your pro Bulgarian Propaganda garbage!
Vardar Macedonia is not there homeland, all of Macedonia is their homeland icluding Pirin and Vardar. When I said they fled to Bulgaria, I ment Pirin Macedonia which has become within the borders of Bulgaria. Most of the Macedonians that fled to Bulgaria were from the Eastern side of Aegean Macedonia thus Bulgaria was closer, while most of Macedonians of Western Aegean M. fled to Vardar M. (if any fled, thats why there's still a large Macedonian minority left in western Aegean M.)
Any chance you'll control the RoM and the Bulgarian editor? Does self-identification apply to Hellenes too? +MATIA ☎ 22:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know what are the "rules" that I'll need to know (or others) while editing this article. One may also see Talk:Republic of Macedonia. Do the same set of rules apply here? +MATIA ☎ 23:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Slavic versions of Macedonian cities should stay because it wasn't too long now that the Greek names were in effect (Greek names were enforced in the 1920's - 1950's, while the Slavic version were the official names for centuries before the 1920's) Besides, the slavic names are still being widely used unofficially and by the city's locals
Before its re-incorporation into Greece in 1912, the territory of Greek Macedonia was inhabited by a variety of ethnic groups of whom Greeks were the largest, followed by a large Bulgarian minority. The rest, in order of population, were Turks, Jews, Vlachs, and Albanians.
Stating that Greeks were the majority ethnic goup in Greek Macedonia before 1912 is false, and besides its unreferenced. Human Rights Watch specifically ststes that Macedonians were the majority [ [5]]. Also Hugh Poulton of the Indiana University Press states numbers in his book "Who are the Macedonians" in Aegean Macedonia before 1912 as the following: (under Ottoman Rule)
326,426 Macedonians, 40,921 Muslim Macedonians, 289,973 Turks, 4,240 Christian Turks, 2,112 Circassians, 240,019 Christian Greeks, 13,753 Muslim Greeks, 5584 Muslim Albanians, 3,291 Christain Albanians, 45,457 Christain Vlachs, 3,500 Muslim Vlachs, 29,803 Roma Gypsies, 8,100 others.
Please stop changing the paragraph because Greeks werent the majority until the 1920's during the massive population changes and lets keep it at the original referenced paragraph. - user: Makedon45
DaveHM 04:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Poulton's book is available online at google book search, only through an existing g-mail account.
My thinking was that the actual numbers are both more informative and will deter those people who are changing things simply because they think "something must be wrong here". What do other editors think? Jkelly 02:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
what? no, i meant the numbers i mentioned above from Poulton, thats what i though you used for "over 300,000 Macedonians, 250,000 Greeks" in the article, you just forgot to add in the Muslims Macedonians which makes the number at around 360,000 Macedonians.
Its on page 85 in the Poulton book. (You can find it on google book search by first finding "Who are the macedonians" by Poulton, then on the top type in the search box type "326,426" and click "search this book". This will find pg 85 for you.)
Yes, we're good. Thank you. I just hope it can stay unharmed from vandalizers or propagandists. - user: Makedon45
Dear Todor Bozhinov, the phrase controlling the two editors, was about neutrality. If you are indeed neutral, everything is fine. However the changes in the article by User:Makedon45 and his claims in the talk page are certainly not neutral, and I should not use the proper words to describe them. There's a long list of external links that can be used to verify the article, and if User:Makedon45 continues his way I'll report him following the procedures (it will be stressing for me too, but his claims are absolutely unacceptable). +MATIA ☎ 10:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Finding one reliable source for that era would be very, very hard, as the numbers in the statistics section of the demographics for Macedonia show. +MATIA ☎ 00:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made a few changes. a) The first formal population exchange was overseen by the league of nations, which legitimized the deportation of about 50,000 Greeks to Greek Macedonia and the deportation of about 100,000 Slavs north. Otherwise one would believe that the first large population transfer was of Greeks from far away, when indeed it was of Greeks just north of the border deported by Bulgaria and visa versa. b)The "hellenization" of the place and surnames is somewhat perjorative without noting the context that the inverse was policy by Bulgaria, nascent Yugolsavia and Turkey as well. c) Bulgarian ethnic cleansing of WWII Greek Macedonia cannot be left out if mention is made of the loss of the Jewish population. d) there remains unadressed problems the article but I will discuss them in talk. I think Jkelly is doing a good job, but would like to note that the pages on the various regions of Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria do not hav anywhere near the amount of assetions of minorities issues remaining from the exchanges, which do exist as well. DaveHM 02:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Why does the article list Slavic names for all of the Greek prefectures and provinces? Yesterday, almost fifty edits ago, they were removed. Now they are back. Can someone explain to me why the Slavic names are appropriate in this article? Jkelly 00:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Slavic versions of Macedonian cities and prefectures should stay because it isn't too long now that the Greek names were in effect (Greek names were enforced in the 1920's - 1950's, while the Slavic version were the official names under Ottoman rule for centuries before the 1920's) Besides, the slavic names are still being widely used unofficially world wide and by a large number of locals in Northern Greece. - User: Makedon45
Turkish:Selanic Slavic:Solun local name:Thessaloniki - so much for "official names under Ottomans". What about pre-1991 names for fYRoM? Are they recent? +MATIA ☎ 01:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What i'm saying is that the Greek and Slavic names are the two names mostly being used then any other name in the world today; and therefore, should stay for the reason of it makes the content of the article better and provides the article with more useful information. - user:Makedon45
I'll probably restore later the most parts of the edits by 62.74.112.185 +MATIA ☎ 13:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to have a consistent principle to apply here. I think Poland provides a good example - many of its towns and regions have alternative German names, as they used to be part of Germany. See for instance West Pomerania. You'll notice that only the Polish names are used in the regional list of towns and regions, but the alternative German names are also listed in the individual town articles. This is a sensible approach - Poland isn't a bilingual country, and the German names don't have equal status.
The parallel should be fairly obvious (I hope). I suggest that we mention the Slavic names in the individual town articles, but not in the regional articles, given their lack of any official or equal status. -- ChrisO 23:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
We call ourselves Macedonians (plain vanilla), and that part of Greece, Macedonia (plain vanilla). Here it is called Greek Macedonia and Greek Macedonians. We call our towns Thessaloniki, Veroia, Edessa, etc. Some editors here, had their way, breaking up the Macedonian disambiguation page. Some admins in the past have said the Greeks try to label those people against their will. The thing is that the facts aren't as prescribed here. And weren't in the past. If the people who live in Veroia, Edessa, Kastoria, Thessaloniki, Kozani, Pella, Kavala and I don't know where else used those names I could understand it. We have Vlachs, Aromanians, Arvanites, Arvanitovlachs, Pontioe, and more. Among them very few are, what you would call bilingual. If you could find a bilingual, and told him he is a Romanian, a Bulgarian, an Albanian or I don't know what else, the result would be the same: he would be offended (what would vary is his reaction). Perhaps you can't understand that. I, on the other hand, cannot understand what the slavic names have to do here. It's like adding the chinese names. I also don't understand other things but it's not the right time now. +MATIA ☎ 00:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Before its re-incorporation into Greece in 1912, the territory of Greek Macedonia had a total population of slightly more than one million people, of which more than 360,000 were Macedonian Slavs – whose allegiance was claimed by Bulgarian and Serbian nationalists.
You don't expect me to agree this is neutral after we've discussed it already, do you? I was clear that you can't doubtlessly prove whether the population was
Macedonian Slavs or
Bulgarians by
1912. I mentioned the
Demographic history of Macedonia article two times already, where this is explained.
→ Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov
→ Talk
18:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with Simovski's inclusion here. I'm unsure where exactly his theory will fit at the other article, among statistics from 1880 to 1920. If the statistics of that time are indeed needed here, then I'll agree with JKelly's suggestion. +MATIA ☎ 18:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted a carefully-sourced re-write of the demographics section's beginning. I'd like to hear some more feedback, and would be delighted if that happened on this Talk page instead of in edit summaries. Note that the bolding is done because Demographic history of Macedonia is an "explicit cross-reference" per the WP:MOS, and not for purposes of emphasis. Jkelly 02:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. As much fun as having most of our conversation in edit-summary boxes is, I'd like to remind people that the Talk page exists for discussing, and that the world will not end if the article is "wrong" for a little while. We have number of discussions going on here, and the constant changing of the article makes it hard to keep track of what is going on. And, if you must revert, please don't blank half of the article doing it. Thanks. Jkelly 23:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Should it be in the article or not? I removed it as needing some discussion. I also removed the "Former Yugoslavian" identifier this time 'round, but remain concerned about misleading the unaware reader. Sun or no Sun? Who wants what? Jkelly 23:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Some editors at the greek wikipedia are looking into it. I'll let you all know, when we sort it out :) +MATIA ☎ 16:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe in google search (I prefer libraries), however we have already found few things related to the Vergina Sun symbol, and while I would prefer to present everything when the search was concluded, I'll give some info of what we have found so far.
ChrisO might remember the Interim Accord - September 15, 1995. At article 7, it is mentioned that RoM will "cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag" (aka the Vergina Sun).
The Hellenic Army use the symbol at two ( 1 2) military insignia (I'm not sure if insignia is the correct english term).
The Greek goverment has requested "requested sole international rights to the Star of Vergina, symbol of the ancient Macedonian royal dynasty ... before the United Nation's World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO)"
The three variations of the symbol at
WIPO's database:
16 rays - Philip's larnax,
12 rays - Olympias' larnax,
8 rays - in coins of Macedon and as a decorative element
WIPO's acknowledgment of the request - July 3, 1995,
ANA news report - July 31, 1995
Macedonia - a cultural association in Austria: "In the July 5th 1995 the Association filed in the International Organism of Protection of Intellectual Property (World Intellectual Property Organization) in Geneva an application for the international entrenchment of the name (Makedonien, Macedonien, Makedonia, Macedonia, Mazedonia, Macedoine) and the emblem (Sun of Vergina) used by the Association, in 37 countries members of the relative international agreement of Madrid. The name and symbol of the Association, guaranteed henceforth in Austria, were recorded in the International Protocol (Internatonal Register of the WIPO) Geneva with date 26 September 1995 and number 643 898. This high expense was covered completely by the Association." (my rough translation into english) +MATIA ☎ 19:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I m from the periphery of West Macedonia(Kozani).The Sun of Vergina is used as flag from the 3 peripheries of Macedonia.Apart from that I see it in all macedonian prefectures and municipalities together with the greek flag and the EU flag. After all that I think it is fair to add it in this page. user talk:makedonas .
Makedonas let me know that he took two pictures to prove his previous statements. +MATIA ☎ 17:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
These two photos are from the building of Kozani prefecture(the capital city of the periphery of West Macedonia).The first flag (from left) is the EU flag,the second is the greek and the third is the vergina sun flag.These three flags are used from all macedonians municipalities,prefectures and peripheries.Other questions? user talk:makedonas
I note that Makedon45 added a lengthy history section to the article. I don't see much point in including this - it's partly drawn from and partly a POV fork of the history that's already at Macedonia (region). I've added a link from this article to the history section of that article. Rather than create two separate, possibly duplicate and possibly conflicting histories, let's ensure that we have a reasonably good history that we can link to from the other Macedonia-related articles. There may be a need for a post-1912 history focusing solely on Greek Macedonia, but there's surely no need to fork or duplicate the pre-1912 history that we already have. -- ChrisO 00:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
+MATIA ☎ 22:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I need explaining-to again. Wouldn't the Slavic side be Yugoslavia at that point in time? Can we find examples of Greek names being replaced? For that matter, can we find examples of any names being replaced so we can actually WP:CITE this name-changing stuff? Jkelly 22:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Well many places in Northern Greece and especialy near the borders have two names.The old one is salvic or turkish.example:Florina-Lerin(slavic),Amyntaio-Sorovec(slavic),Ptolemaida-Kailari(turkish=mud),Edessa-Voden(slavic=from water).From the other,the slavic side,we have the same.The old name is greek or turkish.example:in FYROM Bitola-Monastiri(greek),in Bulgaria Blagoevgrad-Dzumagia,Melnik-Melanikos(greek=black house),Ajtos-Aetos(greek=eagle),Nesebur-Mesemvria,Sozopol-Sozopolis,Burgas-Pyrgos(greek=tower). Sometimes the new name is the translate of the old one:ex:Obitel in bulgarian is the monastery-Bitola.The old name of Ammochori(village in Florina which means sandvillage) was Pesochnitsa(pjasuk in bulgarian=sand),Achlada(village in Florina which means pear) was Krushoradi(krusha in bulgarian=pear) etc. Sometimes we have the same name from the two sides.I think that the population in the towns unter the turkish occupation was mixed.After the Balkan wars greeks from the north moved south and Bulgarians from south moved north.So we have in Bulgaria the town Petrich and in Greece some km southern Neo Petritsio,in Bugaria Gotse Delchev or(Goren Nevrokop=Up Nevrokop) and in Greece Kato Nevrokopi=Unter Nevrokop etc.and many many others. user talk:makedonas
This is an article on the Greek region of Macedonia. Accordingly, it is offensive to the majority of Greeks when the subject Slavic ethnic group is referred to as simply "Macedonians". A qualifier is needed, and using "Slavic Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs" is the least Wikipedia could do in order to remain at the very least neutral.
Again, this is an article about a modern region of GREECE...Wikipedia should not have any part in provoking Greeks when they want to read about their own country.
If you are writing an article about the country that the United Nations calls FYROM, by all means, refer to their ethnic majority as "Macedonians". Please, however, be sensitive to the Greek POV.
I will continue to edit any reference to ethnic “Macedonians” to “Slavic Macedonians”. Stop offending Greeks! -- PrudenceBumpkin 05:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I stumbled upon this. Prudence Bumpkin has a point there, but I think that they should go and have a look at WP:NPOV just to make sure that their edits are conforming to the neutral point of view. Whilst it is important not to be offensive to others, it is also important not to be offensive to the minority either - and most importantly we must be accurate. If there is some way that accomodates both groups, then that is the preferable way to go about things. Even if they are a minority, they should not be offended either. I think that this is the best way to go about things. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Some of the links pertain to Macedonia (region), or in Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia. These should be removed from here. Andreas 18:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between Novemeber 21 2005 and 15 January 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Macedonia (Greece)/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Jkelly 23:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The following two paragraphs are being cut here for proper referencing.
-
I'd suggest that information on the Treaty of Bucharest belongs in this article as does (a lot more) information about the population exchange, but am concerned that the above is oddly worded. Claims of the Ottoman Empire enforcing Hellenization would need to be very carefully referenced. Jkelly 16:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The majority of Greeks living in Northern Greece are the decendents of Greek (Pontic) refugees who have arrived from Turkey in the 1920's. This has caused major population changes in Greek Macedonia which made the Macedonians a minority in their own land. Although Greeks today argue that the modern Macedonians have no right to use Macedonian symbols because they are the "decendents of Slavs" who have arrived in the 5th century AD, there is no doubt that they inhabited Macedonia before the Greeks.
Ok Jkelly ?
The above needs to be cited. Jkelly 03:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
27 November 2005, 1 December 2005 now we know who did it... +MATIA ☎ 00:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I came across a source, citing the book Who are the Macedonians? (Hugh Poulton, 1994), which says: "Macedonia [the geographical region] is not understood to include the peninsula of Khalkidiki". Can anyone confirm this? -- ChrisO 11:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Chalcidice lies within the precinct of Central Macedonia periphery, apart from the Mount Athos which has a self-governing system (mentioned in Autonomy, a better word in greek is Αυτοδιοίκητο - there are differences between autonomy and the self-goverment status of the Holy Mountain). I must also point out that the term "monastic republic" is probably very wrong. +MATIA ☎ 13:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Is this term used anywhere other than by Republic of Macedonia sources and Wikipedia? Jkelly 02:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Unless you don't know the answers to those questions - in that case I apologise (I had presumed that you knew them). +MATIA ☎ 11:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
The term Aegean Macedonia , as well as Pirin and Vardar Macedonia, is used by many non Macedonian sources including Britannica and Encarta Encyclopedia. - User:Makedon45
I am not certain that the article's current word usage is ideal. I do, however, feel very strongly that this article should not present to a hypothetical uninformed reader the idea that there is a language "Macedonian" that is in some ambiguous relationship to this region. Identifying the language of the Republic of Macedonia as Slavic, I suggest, helps keep it clear to the reader that they, for instance, don't need to learn it to order coffee in Thessaloniki. There is a significant danger that, because the language is called "Macedonian" that we can unintentionally mislead readers into thinking that there is a continuity between the Ancient Macedonian language and the modern Slavic one. A long discussion about this would be an odd thing to include in this article, but simply identifying the language as being part of the Slavic family of languages adds some clarity. To summarize, I want to encourage editors to imagine an uninformed English reader as the audience, not someone well-versed in the history of the region. Jkelly 17:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC) User:ChrisO's editing has once again improved the article. Jkelly 17:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why was the following cut? "Though mostly mountainous, the region also encompasses the valleys of the Aliákmon, Axiós, Nestos, and Strymon rivers, all of which drain into the Aegean Sea." Jkelly 23:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Can the following paragraph be properly referenced?
"Following the 1913 Treatry of Bucharest, the original Macedonian place names that existed in Aegean Macedonia were gradually changed to Greek names, as well as the surnames of all Macedonians, according to the 1927 Greek Government Legislative Edict. The Greek Government Gazette declared that "there are not any non-Greek people in Greece". This was part of a process called "Hellenization" whereby all the names of Macedonian villages, towns, regions, lakes, rivers, mountains, etc. were changed, together with the surnames of ethnic Macedonians, into Greek-sounding names. For example, the village of "Lerigovo", on the Chalcidice peninsula, was later renamed to "Arnaía" by Greek officials in 1927. Although many modern Greeks will argue that the Greek name was its original name before the Slav invasion of the 5th century AD, it is certain villages, like this one, had never existed in Ancient times but were originally established by the Slavs and other invaders." Jkelly 17:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem:
[ [2]]
Its a pdf file "Denying Ethnic Identity The Macedonians of Greece". The changing of Macedonian Slavic names into Greek ones is somewhere around on page 5 and 6
No, its free, download the pdf file "Denying Ethnic Identity" try this link [ [3]]
I added in demographics
Before World War I, Macedonians were the largest ethnic group in Aegean Macedonia,10 but between 1913 and 1926 major population shifts significantly changed the demographic make-up of the region. After the region's incorporation into the Greek state in 1913, many Greek civil servants, teachers and military personnel moved north and settled there. Moreover, during the post- Balkan Wars period, thousands of Macedonians and Serbs voluntarily left Greek Macedonia for Bulgaria; the Minority Rights Group puts the number at about 15,000. After the Greek-Bulgarian convention of November 1919, between 52,000 and 72,000 additional Slavs left for Bulgaria.11 Simultaneously, hundreds of thousands of Greeks from Turkey, Bulgaria and Vardar Macedonia were resettled in northern Greece; estimates of the numbers involved range from 500,000 to 618,00012. Thus the ethnic character of Aegean Macedonia changed greatly; Macedonians became a numerical minority, and the number of people in Aegean Macedonia who had "a sense of Greek national identity," rather than Macedonian identity, increased substantially.13
This article is from the HRW, same pdf file I mentioned above (pg 5) "Denying Ethnic Identity"
[ [4]]
The paragraph above concerning the Macedonians as a disticnt ethnic group is from a neutral source, Human Rights Watch International, so stop putting in your pro Bulgarian Propaganda garbage!
Vardar Macedonia is not there homeland, all of Macedonia is their homeland icluding Pirin and Vardar. When I said they fled to Bulgaria, I ment Pirin Macedonia which has become within the borders of Bulgaria. Most of the Macedonians that fled to Bulgaria were from the Eastern side of Aegean Macedonia thus Bulgaria was closer, while most of Macedonians of Western Aegean M. fled to Vardar M. (if any fled, thats why there's still a large Macedonian minority left in western Aegean M.)
Any chance you'll control the RoM and the Bulgarian editor? Does self-identification apply to Hellenes too? +MATIA ☎ 22:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know what are the "rules" that I'll need to know (or others) while editing this article. One may also see Talk:Republic of Macedonia. Do the same set of rules apply here? +MATIA ☎ 23:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Slavic versions of Macedonian cities should stay because it wasn't too long now that the Greek names were in effect (Greek names were enforced in the 1920's - 1950's, while the Slavic version were the official names for centuries before the 1920's) Besides, the slavic names are still being widely used unofficially and by the city's locals
Before its re-incorporation into Greece in 1912, the territory of Greek Macedonia was inhabited by a variety of ethnic groups of whom Greeks were the largest, followed by a large Bulgarian minority. The rest, in order of population, were Turks, Jews, Vlachs, and Albanians.
Stating that Greeks were the majority ethnic goup in Greek Macedonia before 1912 is false, and besides its unreferenced. Human Rights Watch specifically ststes that Macedonians were the majority [ [5]]. Also Hugh Poulton of the Indiana University Press states numbers in his book "Who are the Macedonians" in Aegean Macedonia before 1912 as the following: (under Ottoman Rule)
326,426 Macedonians, 40,921 Muslim Macedonians, 289,973 Turks, 4,240 Christian Turks, 2,112 Circassians, 240,019 Christian Greeks, 13,753 Muslim Greeks, 5584 Muslim Albanians, 3,291 Christain Albanians, 45,457 Christain Vlachs, 3,500 Muslim Vlachs, 29,803 Roma Gypsies, 8,100 others.
Please stop changing the paragraph because Greeks werent the majority until the 1920's during the massive population changes and lets keep it at the original referenced paragraph. - user: Makedon45
DaveHM 04:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Poulton's book is available online at google book search, only through an existing g-mail account.
My thinking was that the actual numbers are both more informative and will deter those people who are changing things simply because they think "something must be wrong here". What do other editors think? Jkelly 02:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
what? no, i meant the numbers i mentioned above from Poulton, thats what i though you used for "over 300,000 Macedonians, 250,000 Greeks" in the article, you just forgot to add in the Muslims Macedonians which makes the number at around 360,000 Macedonians.
Its on page 85 in the Poulton book. (You can find it on google book search by first finding "Who are the macedonians" by Poulton, then on the top type in the search box type "326,426" and click "search this book". This will find pg 85 for you.)
Yes, we're good. Thank you. I just hope it can stay unharmed from vandalizers or propagandists. - user: Makedon45
Dear Todor Bozhinov, the phrase controlling the two editors, was about neutrality. If you are indeed neutral, everything is fine. However the changes in the article by User:Makedon45 and his claims in the talk page are certainly not neutral, and I should not use the proper words to describe them. There's a long list of external links that can be used to verify the article, and if User:Makedon45 continues his way I'll report him following the procedures (it will be stressing for me too, but his claims are absolutely unacceptable). +MATIA ☎ 10:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Finding one reliable source for that era would be very, very hard, as the numbers in the statistics section of the demographics for Macedonia show. +MATIA ☎ 00:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made a few changes. a) The first formal population exchange was overseen by the league of nations, which legitimized the deportation of about 50,000 Greeks to Greek Macedonia and the deportation of about 100,000 Slavs north. Otherwise one would believe that the first large population transfer was of Greeks from far away, when indeed it was of Greeks just north of the border deported by Bulgaria and visa versa. b)The "hellenization" of the place and surnames is somewhat perjorative without noting the context that the inverse was policy by Bulgaria, nascent Yugolsavia and Turkey as well. c) Bulgarian ethnic cleansing of WWII Greek Macedonia cannot be left out if mention is made of the loss of the Jewish population. d) there remains unadressed problems the article but I will discuss them in talk. I think Jkelly is doing a good job, but would like to note that the pages on the various regions of Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria do not hav anywhere near the amount of assetions of minorities issues remaining from the exchanges, which do exist as well. DaveHM 02:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Why does the article list Slavic names for all of the Greek prefectures and provinces? Yesterday, almost fifty edits ago, they were removed. Now they are back. Can someone explain to me why the Slavic names are appropriate in this article? Jkelly 00:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Slavic versions of Macedonian cities and prefectures should stay because it isn't too long now that the Greek names were in effect (Greek names were enforced in the 1920's - 1950's, while the Slavic version were the official names under Ottoman rule for centuries before the 1920's) Besides, the slavic names are still being widely used unofficially world wide and by a large number of locals in Northern Greece. - User: Makedon45
Turkish:Selanic Slavic:Solun local name:Thessaloniki - so much for "official names under Ottomans". What about pre-1991 names for fYRoM? Are they recent? +MATIA ☎ 01:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What i'm saying is that the Greek and Slavic names are the two names mostly being used then any other name in the world today; and therefore, should stay for the reason of it makes the content of the article better and provides the article with more useful information. - user:Makedon45
I'll probably restore later the most parts of the edits by 62.74.112.185 +MATIA ☎ 13:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to have a consistent principle to apply here. I think Poland provides a good example - many of its towns and regions have alternative German names, as they used to be part of Germany. See for instance West Pomerania. You'll notice that only the Polish names are used in the regional list of towns and regions, but the alternative German names are also listed in the individual town articles. This is a sensible approach - Poland isn't a bilingual country, and the German names don't have equal status.
The parallel should be fairly obvious (I hope). I suggest that we mention the Slavic names in the individual town articles, but not in the regional articles, given their lack of any official or equal status. -- ChrisO 23:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
We call ourselves Macedonians (plain vanilla), and that part of Greece, Macedonia (plain vanilla). Here it is called Greek Macedonia and Greek Macedonians. We call our towns Thessaloniki, Veroia, Edessa, etc. Some editors here, had their way, breaking up the Macedonian disambiguation page. Some admins in the past have said the Greeks try to label those people against their will. The thing is that the facts aren't as prescribed here. And weren't in the past. If the people who live in Veroia, Edessa, Kastoria, Thessaloniki, Kozani, Pella, Kavala and I don't know where else used those names I could understand it. We have Vlachs, Aromanians, Arvanites, Arvanitovlachs, Pontioe, and more. Among them very few are, what you would call bilingual. If you could find a bilingual, and told him he is a Romanian, a Bulgarian, an Albanian or I don't know what else, the result would be the same: he would be offended (what would vary is his reaction). Perhaps you can't understand that. I, on the other hand, cannot understand what the slavic names have to do here. It's like adding the chinese names. I also don't understand other things but it's not the right time now. +MATIA ☎ 00:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Before its re-incorporation into Greece in 1912, the territory of Greek Macedonia had a total population of slightly more than one million people, of which more than 360,000 were Macedonian Slavs – whose allegiance was claimed by Bulgarian and Serbian nationalists.
You don't expect me to agree this is neutral after we've discussed it already, do you? I was clear that you can't doubtlessly prove whether the population was
Macedonian Slavs or
Bulgarians by
1912. I mentioned the
Demographic history of Macedonia article two times already, where this is explained.
→ Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov
→ Talk
18:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with Simovski's inclusion here. I'm unsure where exactly his theory will fit at the other article, among statistics from 1880 to 1920. If the statistics of that time are indeed needed here, then I'll agree with JKelly's suggestion. +MATIA ☎ 18:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted a carefully-sourced re-write of the demographics section's beginning. I'd like to hear some more feedback, and would be delighted if that happened on this Talk page instead of in edit summaries. Note that the bolding is done because Demographic history of Macedonia is an "explicit cross-reference" per the WP:MOS, and not for purposes of emphasis. Jkelly 02:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. As much fun as having most of our conversation in edit-summary boxes is, I'd like to remind people that the Talk page exists for discussing, and that the world will not end if the article is "wrong" for a little while. We have number of discussions going on here, and the constant changing of the article makes it hard to keep track of what is going on. And, if you must revert, please don't blank half of the article doing it. Thanks. Jkelly 23:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Should it be in the article or not? I removed it as needing some discussion. I also removed the "Former Yugoslavian" identifier this time 'round, but remain concerned about misleading the unaware reader. Sun or no Sun? Who wants what? Jkelly 23:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Some editors at the greek wikipedia are looking into it. I'll let you all know, when we sort it out :) +MATIA ☎ 16:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe in google search (I prefer libraries), however we have already found few things related to the Vergina Sun symbol, and while I would prefer to present everything when the search was concluded, I'll give some info of what we have found so far.
ChrisO might remember the Interim Accord - September 15, 1995. At article 7, it is mentioned that RoM will "cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag" (aka the Vergina Sun).
The Hellenic Army use the symbol at two ( 1 2) military insignia (I'm not sure if insignia is the correct english term).
The Greek goverment has requested "requested sole international rights to the Star of Vergina, symbol of the ancient Macedonian royal dynasty ... before the United Nation's World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO)"
The three variations of the symbol at
WIPO's database:
16 rays - Philip's larnax,
12 rays - Olympias' larnax,
8 rays - in coins of Macedon and as a decorative element
WIPO's acknowledgment of the request - July 3, 1995,
ANA news report - July 31, 1995
Macedonia - a cultural association in Austria: "In the July 5th 1995 the Association filed in the International Organism of Protection of Intellectual Property (World Intellectual Property Organization) in Geneva an application for the international entrenchment of the name (Makedonien, Macedonien, Makedonia, Macedonia, Mazedonia, Macedoine) and the emblem (Sun of Vergina) used by the Association, in 37 countries members of the relative international agreement of Madrid. The name and symbol of the Association, guaranteed henceforth in Austria, were recorded in the International Protocol (Internatonal Register of the WIPO) Geneva with date 26 September 1995 and number 643 898. This high expense was covered completely by the Association." (my rough translation into english) +MATIA ☎ 19:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I m from the periphery of West Macedonia(Kozani).The Sun of Vergina is used as flag from the 3 peripheries of Macedonia.Apart from that I see it in all macedonian prefectures and municipalities together with the greek flag and the EU flag. After all that I think it is fair to add it in this page. user talk:makedonas .
Makedonas let me know that he took two pictures to prove his previous statements. +MATIA ☎ 17:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
These two photos are from the building of Kozani prefecture(the capital city of the periphery of West Macedonia).The first flag (from left) is the EU flag,the second is the greek and the third is the vergina sun flag.These three flags are used from all macedonians municipalities,prefectures and peripheries.Other questions? user talk:makedonas
I note that Makedon45 added a lengthy history section to the article. I don't see much point in including this - it's partly drawn from and partly a POV fork of the history that's already at Macedonia (region). I've added a link from this article to the history section of that article. Rather than create two separate, possibly duplicate and possibly conflicting histories, let's ensure that we have a reasonably good history that we can link to from the other Macedonia-related articles. There may be a need for a post-1912 history focusing solely on Greek Macedonia, but there's surely no need to fork or duplicate the pre-1912 history that we already have. -- ChrisO 00:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
+MATIA ☎ 22:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I need explaining-to again. Wouldn't the Slavic side be Yugoslavia at that point in time? Can we find examples of Greek names being replaced? For that matter, can we find examples of any names being replaced so we can actually WP:CITE this name-changing stuff? Jkelly 22:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Well many places in Northern Greece and especialy near the borders have two names.The old one is salvic or turkish.example:Florina-Lerin(slavic),Amyntaio-Sorovec(slavic),Ptolemaida-Kailari(turkish=mud),Edessa-Voden(slavic=from water).From the other,the slavic side,we have the same.The old name is greek or turkish.example:in FYROM Bitola-Monastiri(greek),in Bulgaria Blagoevgrad-Dzumagia,Melnik-Melanikos(greek=black house),Ajtos-Aetos(greek=eagle),Nesebur-Mesemvria,Sozopol-Sozopolis,Burgas-Pyrgos(greek=tower). Sometimes the new name is the translate of the old one:ex:Obitel in bulgarian is the monastery-Bitola.The old name of Ammochori(village in Florina which means sandvillage) was Pesochnitsa(pjasuk in bulgarian=sand),Achlada(village in Florina which means pear) was Krushoradi(krusha in bulgarian=pear) etc. Sometimes we have the same name from the two sides.I think that the population in the towns unter the turkish occupation was mixed.After the Balkan wars greeks from the north moved south and Bulgarians from south moved north.So we have in Bulgaria the town Petrich and in Greece some km southern Neo Petritsio,in Bugaria Gotse Delchev or(Goren Nevrokop=Up Nevrokop) and in Greece Kato Nevrokopi=Unter Nevrokop etc.and many many others. user talk:makedonas
This is an article on the Greek region of Macedonia. Accordingly, it is offensive to the majority of Greeks when the subject Slavic ethnic group is referred to as simply "Macedonians". A qualifier is needed, and using "Slavic Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs" is the least Wikipedia could do in order to remain at the very least neutral.
Again, this is an article about a modern region of GREECE...Wikipedia should not have any part in provoking Greeks when they want to read about their own country.
If you are writing an article about the country that the United Nations calls FYROM, by all means, refer to their ethnic majority as "Macedonians". Please, however, be sensitive to the Greek POV.
I will continue to edit any reference to ethnic “Macedonians” to “Slavic Macedonians”. Stop offending Greeks! -- PrudenceBumpkin 05:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I stumbled upon this. Prudence Bumpkin has a point there, but I think that they should go and have a look at WP:NPOV just to make sure that their edits are conforming to the neutral point of view. Whilst it is important not to be offensive to others, it is also important not to be offensive to the minority either - and most importantly we must be accurate. If there is some way that accomodates both groups, then that is the preferable way to go about things. Even if they are a minority, they should not be offended either. I think that this is the best way to go about things. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Some of the links pertain to Macedonia (region), or in Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia. These should be removed from here. Andreas 18:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)