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Very important article but inter alia is using as part of global anti-Ukrainian propaganda, organized by the Kremlin, where Wikipedia is part of global informational war is [1] [2].
When the article was frozen (Extended protected)? For sure before invasion of Russia into Ukraine, so everybody who is interesting in the "nazi/nationalism problem in Ukraine" can see what he/she heard on international (belongs to Russia state) medias.
First paragraph of the article, which for sure mostly readable, argue that the "pogroms were ignored or obfuscated in Ukrainian historical memory", it is very controversial statement and directly condemns Ukraine as a state that hides the memory of the Holocaust, thereby being to one degree or another the (neo)Nazi, as official Russian propaganda claims [3].
Very quick search about this problem (historian memory) shows us plenty of articles online, in papers and magazines, just several examples: at Istorychna Pravda [4], polemical article about previous one [5], Lviv Interactive encyclopedia [6], in Ukrainа moderna magazine [7]. Moreover there are several monuments and memorials in memory of holocaust in Lviv [8] [9] [10].
So in conclusion, this article has controversial statements which should be moderated to more neutral. DUKE ( talk) 10:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
References
Russian sources are quite specific with regard to the pogroms. The Russian historian Sergei Chuguyev (whom I understand was a former KGB archivist) wrote: "That on June 30 in Lviv the German administration started mass repressions. The commander of the "Einzatzgruppen C" Dr. Rasch had incriminated the death of those incarcerated in the Lviv jails to the "Jews from the NKVD", which became the spark for the terror against the Jews and Poles in Lviv. In the bloody murder of the Jews the Einsatzgruppen under the command of brigadeerfuhrer SS Karl Eberhard Schenhardt took prominence. The sections of this group under the command of H. Kruger and W. Kutshman on July 4 murdered 23 Polish professors and their families. On July 11, 2 more were killed, and later the former prime-minister of Poland, professor Bartel. In the Autumn of 1941 a ghetto was formed in Lviv" [1].
Also, the initial number of 4,000 deaths was originally the number ascribed to the Ukrainian and Polish Political prisoners who were killed in their cells by the Soviets during their withdrawal. This particular number seems to have wandered over to the anti-jewish pogroms. What the mechanism was for this is not clear.
The number of Jewish deaths that was quoted in an article I recently read from the Nuremberg trials (this is just off the top of my head was I think) was more like 30,000 which is considerably more than 4,000, although I do also remember that there was a not regarding the fact that these numbers could have been inaccurate. One of the reasons that Babi Yar did not become a major topic during Nuremberg was because the numbers for Babi Yar were at that time so small in comparisonto Lviv and Kharkiv.
An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands in 1958 to carry out independent investigations initially into Federal Minister Oberländer but also it touched on the Nachtigall battalion which he commanded. The members were four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact. [2]"
A valuable source of a detailed study of archival documents of this period are in de Zayas book "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945" University of Nebraska Press, Rockport, Maine, 2000 edition [3]. Sections regarding the investigation of the Lviv attrocities are available online[ [1]].
One should keep in mind that in the fall of 1959 the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against the then minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, who at the time was commander of the Nachtigall Battalion made up of a couple of hundred Ukrainian volunteers. The Soviets accused him and the Ukrainian division of participating in the SS murders in Lviv. On 5 September 1959 the "Radianska Ukraina" newspaper wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison." These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberländer's resignation. The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, completely cleared Oberländer [4]. The accusations of Oberlander and the Nachtigall Battalion keep resurfacing in Western sources however. (This is based on the fact that for a short time he was a former assistant to the infamous Gauleiter Erich Koch and also because of his then political alliances to far-right movements).
This year in Ukraine the government has honoured Roman Shukhevych who was the Ukrainian Commander of the Nachtigall Battalion. Some sources in Ukraine (particularly Eastern Ukraine and the areas in Russia with significant Ukrainian populations) are once again making accusations of involvement in anti-jewish pogroms. I'm sure there will be much more information during the course of the year. Bandurist 21:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
References
As I read through more and more sources and books from Russian, Ukrainian, Polish and Jewish sources one begins to get a feeling with regard to the various POV's that are out there.
Despite the fact that the Russian accounts are probably the most detailed, I have noticed numerous inaccuracies in the Russian sources. Incorrect names, dates that do not fall within the parameters of particular actions. Material which was also avoided and not mentioned. The ascribing of Soviet atrocities to others. Soviet scholarship had many of these holes, however, although current Russian Scholarship seems to be better it still continues in that particular vein.
Polish sources from the 60's seem to have been fed from Russian sources and mirror what was stated or written in Russia at the time. Many of these works are being brought up in recent times. Tracing where they got there information from is interesting.
Jewish sources often quote Polish sources, particularly from the 60's which in turn were often restatements of Soviet materials.
Soviet Ukrainian materials seem the least reliable. Emigre Ukrainian materials avoid the subject almost completely, and the subject regarding Ukrainian collaboration with the Germans is if not avoided, then dealt with extremely sparsely, however, there is enough there to check the more detailed Russian accounts. Bandurist ( talk) 16:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph below has been removed because of lack of documentation. Anyone having the citation for the numbers is welcome to restore the substance of the paragraph.
One should also note the substantial similarity between this Wikipedia article and the essay at http://alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml.
Richard David Ramsey 19:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I have problems with the following:
vThe Lviv pogroms was a massacre of Jews living in and near the city of Lviv in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine) that took place in July 1941 during World War II.
The Nazi's entered Lviv on July 30 at 4.30 am.
The pogroms could not start any earlier.
Also this paragraph
During the four-week pogrom from the end of June to early July 1941, nearly 4,000 Jews were murdered. On July 25, 1941, a second pogrom, called "Petliura Days" after Symon Petliura [1] [2], was organized; nearly 2,000 more Jews were killed in Lviv, mostly shot in groups by civilian collaborators after being marched to the Jewish cemetery or to Lunecki prison.
If Lviv was occupied on July 30 a four week pogrom could not take place from the end of June to early July.
Same applies to the second pogrom of July 25. If the German forces lead by the Nachtigall Battalion entered Lviv on July 30. Something is wrong with the source. Bandurist ( talk) 02:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
02:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
References
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"According to Yevgen Nakonechny the main perpetrators of this pogrom were the local declassee Poles" - This statement is a source degrades, I have not heard of any sources indicating Poles as perpetrators of the pogrom-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 14:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Ivan444 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I think there are some problems with the article, maybe some bias.
1) Ukrainian Auxillary Police could not have participated in the Pogroms of 30 June - 2nd July nor do I think that they could have participated in the Petlura days as the auxillary Police were only formed on the 27th of July.
2) At the time of the German invasion there were only about 100,000 inhabitants of Lviv, of which about 11% were Ukrainian and about 4-50% Jewish. It would have been hard to fit 120,000 Jews into a Ghetto that was one of the ethnic quadrants of the city. The area of the Ghetto was very small, with only small houses and low buildings. I would estimate a population of 8-10,000 people fitting in there. Even today, this area has not been built up and consists mainly of individual houses and low building.
3) I doubt that the Ukrainian division participated, as it quickly left the city after it entered it and continued fighting on the front. And initially the small number of Ukrainians (11% of the city) were busy proclaiming independence and gaining control of the Radio station and newspapers.
The numbers and dates don't really seem so add up.
With Polish, Jewish, Russian and Ukrainian POV's articles like this, where the information is mixed in with some emotional content, they should post a warning note for readers that information contained in the article may be distorted by editors, and the other POV publications. Ivan444 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I am proposing that as a curtesy to other editors, if a Polish, Ukrainian, or Russian language article is used, at bare minimum it should be one that is searchable on the internet and/or if it is a book - and is in fact a RS - it should be one that does not direct to blank hit on Google, Amazon (or another major book seller). The burdon of proof that a source is a RS is on the editor, so please make it easy for us to research the source of your information.
For instance, FN 1 of this article seems to be a Polish work but based on initial searches on Google, Amazon, Jastor, other English sources, etc. it is seemingly non-existent except as it links to this article as FN 1, circular reasoning I think. Can the editor please provide either a better source or some other link so that we can confirm FN 1 and its information? Gmw112252 ( talk) 13:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
This is unsourced inflammatory NNPOV and will be deleted.-- Galassi ( talk) 15:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
A RS was provided, but if you can think of term that is more accurate and dosen't "offend you" I'll agree. However, the only thing that is inflamatory is your stark revert and condescending tone. Why not take it up on the talk page instead? Gmw112252 ( talk) 15:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
First, as to NNPOV, who is the term non-neutural to, convicted criminals? Do you want me to call them "legally challenged"? (smile) Second, as to the RS, I cited it in the revert explaination as Footnote 129, p. 399 Lemberg Mosaic. It's also presented by Filip Friedman in his Roads to Extinction chapter on Lwow as if it was common knowledge in the city at the time. And finally, on another note, some of those killed may also have been Jews, Poles, Romani or others in L'vov's prisons for garden variety of criminal matters. Gmw112252 ( talk) 16:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
First of all it's not that important a point to waste so much bandwidth on. I'm still not sure why you are so incensed that some prisoners in three (3) local prisons may actually have been there for a non-political offenses. After all, one man's freedom fighter can be another man's terrorist (or murdurer). But we don't have to re-invent the wheel here by re-litigating their convictions and ethnic composition according to "lists."
First off, what lists? Whose lists? Prepared by whom and for what adgenda? Second, how do we know the prisoner was "Ukrainian" only by name... perhaps the mother was Jewish or Polish or of some other ethnicity? Third, your use of words/terms like "ovewhelming number," "no source mentions..." when two (2) sources were provided, are not acceptable without a RS, like I've cited. And finally -- if the lists are available cite a RS and link to them.
In the end, I don't think the point is important enough to provide a scan, if you haven't access to the book (which I find that hard to believe as the title produces almost 200,000 hits on Google), assume GFaith in a fellow editor. I'm busy now and must run. Peace and let's consider the more important issue(s) I've raised below which I *think* will end all this silly bickering over trying to re-write or re-fight the war. Gmw112252 ( talk) 16:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
In trying to edit this article for clarity and acuracy (starting today with the introductory paragraph) I came to the conclusion - through my research - that this article as it stands to is "highly," perhaps irreparably flawed from the gate. And this is most likely the cause for others editors' concern, reverts (one of which I was forced to make today as unsourced or incorrectly sourced), and confusion of the subject which has already led to a separate controversy paragraph and WP controversy page on the subject.
I believe that this problem has come about because of the article's overly ambitious attempt to lump together two inherently conflicted concepts - in the format of historical events, i.e. The Prison Massacre and the subsequent Prison Aktion - in what essentially is an article about three separate components of the Shoah (Holocaust) in Lviv (Lemberg/Lwow at the time) and a relatively important event in Ukrainian history during World War II, the Prison Massacre. I believe each is a very broad subject in itself:
1. The Prison Massacre of 1941
2. The Prison Aktion Pogrom against the Jews of Lviv
3. The Pogrom widely covered by Jewish historians and witnesses known as "Petlura Days"
The problem I see is that the NPOV is lost when these topics are presented here as one continuous pogrom. What has happened here is that sources from Ukrainian historians have been jockeyed against a library of Jewish RS on the Holocaust. The result is a mish-mosh and blurring of the history because the events above - especially #1 are highly disputed, and to a lesser extent, #2.
Ukrainian Pogrom. The article as it stands also makes it seem as if the Prison Massacre against the inmates was a "pogrom" (or part of one, actually #2 above) without citing RS that call it a "pogrom" (I have found none) in conflict with the facts, and the generally accepted definition of the term pogrom. As to whether the editors are trying to say it was a "pogrom," or are trying to characterize it as one by "free-riding" RS about the pogrom(s) against Jews (in which the victims of the massacre are the perpetrators of the pogroms). At minimum it's just confusing.
I propose that this article be divided into three separate articles that link to each other where relevant, and I think this *might* make it easier to resolve the problem of its non-NPOV and historical inaccuracies.
I further would like to suggest that since most of the research on this subject refers to the name of the city as Lwow, L'vov, Lvov, or Lemberg GG, as it was called at the time in 1941 and for years thereafter, through to the creation of an independent Ukraine in 1991, that a paragraph be devoted to this subject so as not to confuse the reader and/or some kind of disambiguation page... or however it's done on WP. Comments? Suggestions? Gmw112252 ( talk) 15:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
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The quote by prof. Norman Davies ("in the [Lviv] personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking.") doesn't appear to address Lviv specifically, but is instead referring to all of "eastern Poland in 1939–1941." Please review page 32 in the source. In its current version, the text seems to insinuate Lviv was exceptional. -- ארינמל ( talk) 03:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
"Among the informers and collaborators, as in the personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking."This statement is followed by a referral to seven (7) authors including Krakowiecki, Blum, Wat, Mirska, Watowa, Chciuk and Rowiński. It is not possible to confirm whether the situation in Lviv was being addressed specifically by any of them. However, on page 34 the situation in Lviv (in Davies' quote) is being addressed directly with these words (attributed to Gross' research at Yad Vashem):
In Lwów, “I must admit that the majority of positions in the Soviet agencies have been taken by Jews.” A Jewish observer to the pro-Soviet demonstrations in Lwów related, “Whenever a political march, or protest meeting, or some other sort of joyful event took place, the visual effect was unambiguous—Jews.”The message conveyed in these two statements combined amounts to the same thing. We can change the words of course, but that could result in even more confusion because the (quote-unquote) Soviet agencies really mean just one thing i.e. the Soviet security police. No agencies existed outside of the NKVD stronghold, which is clear in the context of the entire Soviet occupation of eastern Poland before Operation Barbarossa. Poeticbent talk 07:08, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Poeticbent, no texts were copied from other wikipedias-- Slav70 ( talk) 02:18, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Those of you who have a knack for graphic arts, please look carefully at the top right-hand corned of that screenshot, and study the usual compression artifacts. "Page 46" was typed into the picture using Photoshop after the fact. That's even worse than I thought.
On the whole, initial Ukrainian reactions [to Soviet occupation] ranged from radical rejection to hopeful welcome. While others fled, many Ukrainian elite representatives stayed, some at least welcoming the demotion of Poles or complaining about imagined preferences for Jews. In reality, Ukrainians predominated among locals given positions in Soviet institutions in Lviv oblast, accounting for two-thirds (4,909) of 6,822 locals promoted by the middle of 1940.— Tarik Cyril Amar (2015), The Paradox of Ukrainian Lviv: A Borderland City between Stalinists, Nazis, and Nationalists. Cornell University Press, p. 74. ISBN 1501700839. Poeticbent talk 23:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Information about Jewish collaboration with NKVD and soviets in Eastern Poland during soviet occupation must be mentioned in the article like it included in the article of Jedwabne pogrom since it is very relevant information. There are many books and articles on Jewish collaboration with NKVD and soviets from many reputable historians (see the above section ) .-- Slav70 ( talk) 08:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Grayfell, why do you consider my is not neutral?-- Slav70 ( talk) 00:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Grayfell, Do you have any evidences about my usage of multiple accounts? Many reputable historian describe Jewish collaboration at that time.-- Slav70 ( talk) 00:55, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
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How were the perpetrators identified as Ukrainian nationalists? All of them showed their Ukrainian passport? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 22:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Re this revert, and this additional source Norman Davis is a rather polemic source, who has alleged Jewish historians have conspired against him personally, and whose views on Jews are not mainstream, [8] [9] attributing an allegation of Judeo-Bolshevism with a weasly "as X observed" (as opposed to a proper attribution of this claim) and sources to a WP:SPS and another book - is UNDUE - this is the view of a very small minority in the field, and should not be represented in our article - this is WP:CHERRYPICKING from the extreme, and seeing this this is echoed by the WP:QS WP:SPS by Mark Paul rather indicates this is highly POV. Icewhiz ( talk) 10:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
I found juxtaposition unfortunate, although perhaps unintended:
What did the pogrom have to do with the ethnic composition of NKVD officers? It's not like the Germans were planning to treat Jews nicely. This reads as it was their own damn fault and is inappropriate. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:25, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Seems there was a pogrom in 1914. I wonder if it is notable for a stand-alone article? This article's titles suggests it discusses all pogroms, which is incorrect, it should be moved to Lviv pogroms (1941) and Lviv pogroms should be a disambig (it seems being a Jew in Lviv in early 20th century was not a good place...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. There are two sets of issues:
This section needs to be written from scratch. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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I have concerns about the copyright status of both photos. Both PD-Polish and PD-Ukraine rely on the photo being published by a certain date, but neither photo says when the first publication was. The first photo could be locally re-uploaded under fair use if there are no free images of the event.
Otherwise I have no concerns. It's a very well researched article which overall does a good job with a touchy topic. b uidh e 09:38, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
-- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:06, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
The most concerted empirical effort to argue for the OUN’s complicity in the killings, by John-Paul Himka (‘The Lviv Pogrom of 1941’), signally fails to make a persuasive case, preferring to resort to highly circumstantial evidence and dubious inference. Himka’s effort has been the target of a devastating point-by-point rebuttal by the Ukrainian scholar, Serhii Riabenko, who convincingly demonstrates that Himka consistently misinterprets facts, resolves ambiguities in favor of his thesis, and misuses his sources (Riabenko, ‘Slidamy “L′vivs′koho pohromu” Dzhona-Pola Khymky,’ Ukraïns′kyi vyzvol′nyi rukh 18 (2013): 258-328).We need to reflect what the range of historians say, and not pick sides if there is no consensus. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
If the photographs are iconic, why do we have only one ( File:Lviv pogrom (June - July 1941).jpg)? We should link the others from external links, and preferably upload them to Commons, where a dedicated category should be created. They should be PD, just like the one already uploaded and present here. PS. Would be good to do this before this is on main page ( Template:Did you know nominations/Lviv pogroms (1941)...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
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I was going to redirect Eastern Poland to Kresy, due to the Lviv pogroms taking place in the region. Dilljl248 ( talk) 06:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I would like to request that the photograph be removed as it perpetuates the poor woman's humiliation as she is chased through the streets in fear in what are clearly her undergarments.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.108.166 ( talk • contribs)
I have been reading through various Wikipedia articles on anti Jewish violence among Ukrainian nationalists during WW2 and it seems certain articles are contradictory. In this article it seems to discredit the 2008 SBU released documents while this article seems to take them as fact. Which case is the correct answer?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
24.200.116.208 (
talk) 02:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Re this edit: There is no doubt that ethnic Polish participation was a less significant factor than ethnic Ukrainian and specifically Ukrainian nationalist participation. But was it significant enough to mention? I think so.
"On June 30, 1941, on the eighth day of operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, a pogrom broke out in Lviv, the capital city of Eastern Galicia. Ukrainians, and to a lesser extent Poles, massacred their Jewish neighbors and fellow citizens.
The moderate Ukrainian politician, Kost′ Pan′kivs′kyi, wrote: ‘Starting on 1 July, anti-Jewish excesses went through the city [L′viv] on the initiative of the German army.… The urban scum exploited this opportunity and joined this action…. [T]his scum [was] almost exclusively Polish, robbed and beat Jews, wore blue-and-yellow insignia, and tried to speak Ukrainian. I personally experienced such actions when the street toughs attacked our Jewish and non-Jewish coworkers’ (Kost′ Pan′kivs′kyi, Vid derzhavy do Komitetu (New York; Toronto: Kliuchi, 1957), 35-36). Pan′kivs′kyi, a critic of the OUN, is credible, and his claim that he ‘personally experienced such instances’ has to be taken seriously
Ukrainian memoirists emphasize that there was a large Polish participation in the violence. Kost' Pan'kivs'kyi said that since Poles made up the majority of the lumpen population of Lviv, it was natural that they were the ones who were beating Jews in the streets.135 Both Pan'kivs'kyi and Ievhen Nakonechnyi wrote that Polish pogromists would often don yellow-and-blue armbands, but they could be recognized by how feebly they spoke Ukrainian.136 It may well be true that Polish criminals used the occasion of the pogrom to rob Jewish apartments,137 but it is significant that they chose to disguise themselves as Ukrainian militiamen. The presence of Polish pogromists in Lviv in 1941 finds reflection in other documentation. As Tamara Branitsky remembered the crowd that tormented her, she said that they looked like Ukrainians to her and her family, but probably Polish people were there too.138 Rose Moskowitz identified the crowds that attacked Jews in Lviv as Poles. After the Germans took Lviv in July, they let the Polish population do what they pleased, she said; “and you can imagine what they liked to do”—they were beating up Jewish people on the streets.139 A member of the Mel'nyk wing of OUN sent a situational report to the leadership that characterized the Lviv pogrom as a demonstration of Polish power: “Between the departure of the Bolsheviks and the arrival of the żermans, the Poles on their own authority organized a Jewish pogrom in order perhaps to certify the Polishness of Lviv.”140 Thus, the urban crowd that participated in the pogrom was of mixed nationality.
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 09:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
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Very important article but inter alia is using as part of global anti-Ukrainian propaganda, organized by the Kremlin, where Wikipedia is part of global informational war is [1] [2].
When the article was frozen (Extended protected)? For sure before invasion of Russia into Ukraine, so everybody who is interesting in the "nazi/nationalism problem in Ukraine" can see what he/she heard on international (belongs to Russia state) medias.
First paragraph of the article, which for sure mostly readable, argue that the "pogroms were ignored or obfuscated in Ukrainian historical memory", it is very controversial statement and directly condemns Ukraine as a state that hides the memory of the Holocaust, thereby being to one degree or another the (neo)Nazi, as official Russian propaganda claims [3].
Very quick search about this problem (historian memory) shows us plenty of articles online, in papers and magazines, just several examples: at Istorychna Pravda [4], polemical article about previous one [5], Lviv Interactive encyclopedia [6], in Ukrainа moderna magazine [7]. Moreover there are several monuments and memorials in memory of holocaust in Lviv [8] [9] [10].
So in conclusion, this article has controversial statements which should be moderated to more neutral. DUKE ( talk) 10:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
References
Russian sources are quite specific with regard to the pogroms. The Russian historian Sergei Chuguyev (whom I understand was a former KGB archivist) wrote: "That on June 30 in Lviv the German administration started mass repressions. The commander of the "Einzatzgruppen C" Dr. Rasch had incriminated the death of those incarcerated in the Lviv jails to the "Jews from the NKVD", which became the spark for the terror against the Jews and Poles in Lviv. In the bloody murder of the Jews the Einsatzgruppen under the command of brigadeerfuhrer SS Karl Eberhard Schenhardt took prominence. The sections of this group under the command of H. Kruger and W. Kutshman on July 4 murdered 23 Polish professors and their families. On July 11, 2 more were killed, and later the former prime-minister of Poland, professor Bartel. In the Autumn of 1941 a ghetto was formed in Lviv" [1].
Also, the initial number of 4,000 deaths was originally the number ascribed to the Ukrainian and Polish Political prisoners who were killed in their cells by the Soviets during their withdrawal. This particular number seems to have wandered over to the anti-jewish pogroms. What the mechanism was for this is not clear.
The number of Jewish deaths that was quoted in an article I recently read from the Nuremberg trials (this is just off the top of my head was I think) was more like 30,000 which is considerably more than 4,000, although I do also remember that there was a not regarding the fact that these numbers could have been inaccurate. One of the reasons that Babi Yar did not become a major topic during Nuremberg was because the numbers for Babi Yar were at that time so small in comparisonto Lviv and Kharkiv.
An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands in 1958 to carry out independent investigations initially into Federal Minister Oberländer but also it touched on the Nachtigall battalion which he commanded. The members were four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact. [2]"
A valuable source of a detailed study of archival documents of this period are in de Zayas book "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945" University of Nebraska Press, Rockport, Maine, 2000 edition [3]. Sections regarding the investigation of the Lviv attrocities are available online[ [1]].
One should keep in mind that in the fall of 1959 the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against the then minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, who at the time was commander of the Nachtigall Battalion made up of a couple of hundred Ukrainian volunteers. The Soviets accused him and the Ukrainian division of participating in the SS murders in Lviv. On 5 September 1959 the "Radianska Ukraina" newspaper wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison." These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberländer's resignation. The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, completely cleared Oberländer [4]. The accusations of Oberlander and the Nachtigall Battalion keep resurfacing in Western sources however. (This is based on the fact that for a short time he was a former assistant to the infamous Gauleiter Erich Koch and also because of his then political alliances to far-right movements).
This year in Ukraine the government has honoured Roman Shukhevych who was the Ukrainian Commander of the Nachtigall Battalion. Some sources in Ukraine (particularly Eastern Ukraine and the areas in Russia with significant Ukrainian populations) are once again making accusations of involvement in anti-jewish pogroms. I'm sure there will be much more information during the course of the year. Bandurist 21:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
References
As I read through more and more sources and books from Russian, Ukrainian, Polish and Jewish sources one begins to get a feeling with regard to the various POV's that are out there.
Despite the fact that the Russian accounts are probably the most detailed, I have noticed numerous inaccuracies in the Russian sources. Incorrect names, dates that do not fall within the parameters of particular actions. Material which was also avoided and not mentioned. The ascribing of Soviet atrocities to others. Soviet scholarship had many of these holes, however, although current Russian Scholarship seems to be better it still continues in that particular vein.
Polish sources from the 60's seem to have been fed from Russian sources and mirror what was stated or written in Russia at the time. Many of these works are being brought up in recent times. Tracing where they got there information from is interesting.
Jewish sources often quote Polish sources, particularly from the 60's which in turn were often restatements of Soviet materials.
Soviet Ukrainian materials seem the least reliable. Emigre Ukrainian materials avoid the subject almost completely, and the subject regarding Ukrainian collaboration with the Germans is if not avoided, then dealt with extremely sparsely, however, there is enough there to check the more detailed Russian accounts. Bandurist ( talk) 16:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph below has been removed because of lack of documentation. Anyone having the citation for the numbers is welcome to restore the substance of the paragraph.
One should also note the substantial similarity between this Wikipedia article and the essay at http://alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml.
Richard David Ramsey 19:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I have problems with the following:
vThe Lviv pogroms was a massacre of Jews living in and near the city of Lviv in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine) that took place in July 1941 during World War II.
The Nazi's entered Lviv on July 30 at 4.30 am.
The pogroms could not start any earlier.
Also this paragraph
During the four-week pogrom from the end of June to early July 1941, nearly 4,000 Jews were murdered. On July 25, 1941, a second pogrom, called "Petliura Days" after Symon Petliura [1] [2], was organized; nearly 2,000 more Jews were killed in Lviv, mostly shot in groups by civilian collaborators after being marched to the Jewish cemetery or to Lunecki prison.
If Lviv was occupied on July 30 a four week pogrom could not take place from the end of June to early July.
Same applies to the second pogrom of July 25. If the German forces lead by the Nachtigall Battalion entered Lviv on July 30. Something is wrong with the source. Bandurist ( talk) 02:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
02:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
References
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"According to Yevgen Nakonechny the main perpetrators of this pogrom were the local declassee Poles" - This statement is a source degrades, I have not heard of any sources indicating Poles as perpetrators of the pogrom-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 14:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Ivan444 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I think there are some problems with the article, maybe some bias.
1) Ukrainian Auxillary Police could not have participated in the Pogroms of 30 June - 2nd July nor do I think that they could have participated in the Petlura days as the auxillary Police were only formed on the 27th of July.
2) At the time of the German invasion there were only about 100,000 inhabitants of Lviv, of which about 11% were Ukrainian and about 4-50% Jewish. It would have been hard to fit 120,000 Jews into a Ghetto that was one of the ethnic quadrants of the city. The area of the Ghetto was very small, with only small houses and low buildings. I would estimate a population of 8-10,000 people fitting in there. Even today, this area has not been built up and consists mainly of individual houses and low building.
3) I doubt that the Ukrainian division participated, as it quickly left the city after it entered it and continued fighting on the front. And initially the small number of Ukrainians (11% of the city) were busy proclaiming independence and gaining control of the Radio station and newspapers.
The numbers and dates don't really seem so add up.
With Polish, Jewish, Russian and Ukrainian POV's articles like this, where the information is mixed in with some emotional content, they should post a warning note for readers that information contained in the article may be distorted by editors, and the other POV publications. Ivan444 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I am proposing that as a curtesy to other editors, if a Polish, Ukrainian, or Russian language article is used, at bare minimum it should be one that is searchable on the internet and/or if it is a book - and is in fact a RS - it should be one that does not direct to blank hit on Google, Amazon (or another major book seller). The burdon of proof that a source is a RS is on the editor, so please make it easy for us to research the source of your information.
For instance, FN 1 of this article seems to be a Polish work but based on initial searches on Google, Amazon, Jastor, other English sources, etc. it is seemingly non-existent except as it links to this article as FN 1, circular reasoning I think. Can the editor please provide either a better source or some other link so that we can confirm FN 1 and its information? Gmw112252 ( talk) 13:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
This is unsourced inflammatory NNPOV and will be deleted.-- Galassi ( talk) 15:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
A RS was provided, but if you can think of term that is more accurate and dosen't "offend you" I'll agree. However, the only thing that is inflamatory is your stark revert and condescending tone. Why not take it up on the talk page instead? Gmw112252 ( talk) 15:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
First, as to NNPOV, who is the term non-neutural to, convicted criminals? Do you want me to call them "legally challenged"? (smile) Second, as to the RS, I cited it in the revert explaination as Footnote 129, p. 399 Lemberg Mosaic. It's also presented by Filip Friedman in his Roads to Extinction chapter on Lwow as if it was common knowledge in the city at the time. And finally, on another note, some of those killed may also have been Jews, Poles, Romani or others in L'vov's prisons for garden variety of criminal matters. Gmw112252 ( talk) 16:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
First of all it's not that important a point to waste so much bandwidth on. I'm still not sure why you are so incensed that some prisoners in three (3) local prisons may actually have been there for a non-political offenses. After all, one man's freedom fighter can be another man's terrorist (or murdurer). But we don't have to re-invent the wheel here by re-litigating their convictions and ethnic composition according to "lists."
First off, what lists? Whose lists? Prepared by whom and for what adgenda? Second, how do we know the prisoner was "Ukrainian" only by name... perhaps the mother was Jewish or Polish or of some other ethnicity? Third, your use of words/terms like "ovewhelming number," "no source mentions..." when two (2) sources were provided, are not acceptable without a RS, like I've cited. And finally -- if the lists are available cite a RS and link to them.
In the end, I don't think the point is important enough to provide a scan, if you haven't access to the book (which I find that hard to believe as the title produces almost 200,000 hits on Google), assume GFaith in a fellow editor. I'm busy now and must run. Peace and let's consider the more important issue(s) I've raised below which I *think* will end all this silly bickering over trying to re-write or re-fight the war. Gmw112252 ( talk) 16:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
In trying to edit this article for clarity and acuracy (starting today with the introductory paragraph) I came to the conclusion - through my research - that this article as it stands to is "highly," perhaps irreparably flawed from the gate. And this is most likely the cause for others editors' concern, reverts (one of which I was forced to make today as unsourced or incorrectly sourced), and confusion of the subject which has already led to a separate controversy paragraph and WP controversy page on the subject.
I believe that this problem has come about because of the article's overly ambitious attempt to lump together two inherently conflicted concepts - in the format of historical events, i.e. The Prison Massacre and the subsequent Prison Aktion - in what essentially is an article about three separate components of the Shoah (Holocaust) in Lviv (Lemberg/Lwow at the time) and a relatively important event in Ukrainian history during World War II, the Prison Massacre. I believe each is a very broad subject in itself:
1. The Prison Massacre of 1941
2. The Prison Aktion Pogrom against the Jews of Lviv
3. The Pogrom widely covered by Jewish historians and witnesses known as "Petlura Days"
The problem I see is that the NPOV is lost when these topics are presented here as one continuous pogrom. What has happened here is that sources from Ukrainian historians have been jockeyed against a library of Jewish RS on the Holocaust. The result is a mish-mosh and blurring of the history because the events above - especially #1 are highly disputed, and to a lesser extent, #2.
Ukrainian Pogrom. The article as it stands also makes it seem as if the Prison Massacre against the inmates was a "pogrom" (or part of one, actually #2 above) without citing RS that call it a "pogrom" (I have found none) in conflict with the facts, and the generally accepted definition of the term pogrom. As to whether the editors are trying to say it was a "pogrom," or are trying to characterize it as one by "free-riding" RS about the pogrom(s) against Jews (in which the victims of the massacre are the perpetrators of the pogroms). At minimum it's just confusing.
I propose that this article be divided into three separate articles that link to each other where relevant, and I think this *might* make it easier to resolve the problem of its non-NPOV and historical inaccuracies.
I further would like to suggest that since most of the research on this subject refers to the name of the city as Lwow, L'vov, Lvov, or Lemberg GG, as it was called at the time in 1941 and for years thereafter, through to the creation of an independent Ukraine in 1991, that a paragraph be devoted to this subject so as not to confuse the reader and/or some kind of disambiguation page... or however it's done on WP. Comments? Suggestions? Gmw112252 ( talk) 15:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
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The quote by prof. Norman Davies ("in the [Lviv] personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking.") doesn't appear to address Lviv specifically, but is instead referring to all of "eastern Poland in 1939–1941." Please review page 32 in the source. In its current version, the text seems to insinuate Lviv was exceptional. -- ארינמל ( talk) 03:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
"Among the informers and collaborators, as in the personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking."This statement is followed by a referral to seven (7) authors including Krakowiecki, Blum, Wat, Mirska, Watowa, Chciuk and Rowiński. It is not possible to confirm whether the situation in Lviv was being addressed specifically by any of them. However, on page 34 the situation in Lviv (in Davies' quote) is being addressed directly with these words (attributed to Gross' research at Yad Vashem):
In Lwów, “I must admit that the majority of positions in the Soviet agencies have been taken by Jews.” A Jewish observer to the pro-Soviet demonstrations in Lwów related, “Whenever a political march, or protest meeting, or some other sort of joyful event took place, the visual effect was unambiguous—Jews.”The message conveyed in these two statements combined amounts to the same thing. We can change the words of course, but that could result in even more confusion because the (quote-unquote) Soviet agencies really mean just one thing i.e. the Soviet security police. No agencies existed outside of the NKVD stronghold, which is clear in the context of the entire Soviet occupation of eastern Poland before Operation Barbarossa. Poeticbent talk 07:08, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Poeticbent, no texts were copied from other wikipedias-- Slav70 ( talk) 02:18, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Those of you who have a knack for graphic arts, please look carefully at the top right-hand corned of that screenshot, and study the usual compression artifacts. "Page 46" was typed into the picture using Photoshop after the fact. That's even worse than I thought.
On the whole, initial Ukrainian reactions [to Soviet occupation] ranged from radical rejection to hopeful welcome. While others fled, many Ukrainian elite representatives stayed, some at least welcoming the demotion of Poles or complaining about imagined preferences for Jews. In reality, Ukrainians predominated among locals given positions in Soviet institutions in Lviv oblast, accounting for two-thirds (4,909) of 6,822 locals promoted by the middle of 1940.— Tarik Cyril Amar (2015), The Paradox of Ukrainian Lviv: A Borderland City between Stalinists, Nazis, and Nationalists. Cornell University Press, p. 74. ISBN 1501700839. Poeticbent talk 23:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Information about Jewish collaboration with NKVD and soviets in Eastern Poland during soviet occupation must be mentioned in the article like it included in the article of Jedwabne pogrom since it is very relevant information. There are many books and articles on Jewish collaboration with NKVD and soviets from many reputable historians (see the above section ) .-- Slav70 ( talk) 08:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Grayfell, why do you consider my is not neutral?-- Slav70 ( talk) 00:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Grayfell, Do you have any evidences about my usage of multiple accounts? Many reputable historian describe Jewish collaboration at that time.-- Slav70 ( talk) 00:55, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
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How were the perpetrators identified as Ukrainian nationalists? All of them showed their Ukrainian passport? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 22:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Re this revert, and this additional source Norman Davis is a rather polemic source, who has alleged Jewish historians have conspired against him personally, and whose views on Jews are not mainstream, [8] [9] attributing an allegation of Judeo-Bolshevism with a weasly "as X observed" (as opposed to a proper attribution of this claim) and sources to a WP:SPS and another book - is UNDUE - this is the view of a very small minority in the field, and should not be represented in our article - this is WP:CHERRYPICKING from the extreme, and seeing this this is echoed by the WP:QS WP:SPS by Mark Paul rather indicates this is highly POV. Icewhiz ( talk) 10:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
I found juxtaposition unfortunate, although perhaps unintended:
What did the pogrom have to do with the ethnic composition of NKVD officers? It's not like the Germans were planning to treat Jews nicely. This reads as it was their own damn fault and is inappropriate. K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:25, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Seems there was a pogrom in 1914. I wonder if it is notable for a stand-alone article? This article's titles suggests it discusses all pogroms, which is incorrect, it should be moved to Lviv pogroms (1941) and Lviv pogroms should be a disambig (it seems being a Jew in Lviv in early 20th century was not a good place...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. There are two sets of issues:
This section needs to be written from scratch. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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I have concerns about the copyright status of both photos. Both PD-Polish and PD-Ukraine rely on the photo being published by a certain date, but neither photo says when the first publication was. The first photo could be locally re-uploaded under fair use if there are no free images of the event.
Otherwise I have no concerns. It's a very well researched article which overall does a good job with a touchy topic. b uidh e 09:38, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
-- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:06, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
The most concerted empirical effort to argue for the OUN’s complicity in the killings, by John-Paul Himka (‘The Lviv Pogrom of 1941’), signally fails to make a persuasive case, preferring to resort to highly circumstantial evidence and dubious inference. Himka’s effort has been the target of a devastating point-by-point rebuttal by the Ukrainian scholar, Serhii Riabenko, who convincingly demonstrates that Himka consistently misinterprets facts, resolves ambiguities in favor of his thesis, and misuses his sources (Riabenko, ‘Slidamy “L′vivs′koho pohromu” Dzhona-Pola Khymky,’ Ukraïns′kyi vyzvol′nyi rukh 18 (2013): 258-328).We need to reflect what the range of historians say, and not pick sides if there is no consensus. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
If the photographs are iconic, why do we have only one ( File:Lviv pogrom (June - July 1941).jpg)? We should link the others from external links, and preferably upload them to Commons, where a dedicated category should be created. They should be PD, just like the one already uploaded and present here. PS. Would be good to do this before this is on main page ( Template:Did you know nominations/Lviv pogroms (1941)...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
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I was going to redirect Eastern Poland to Kresy, due to the Lviv pogroms taking place in the region. Dilljl248 ( talk) 06:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I would like to request that the photograph be removed as it perpetuates the poor woman's humiliation as she is chased through the streets in fear in what are clearly her undergarments.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.108.166 ( talk • contribs)
I have been reading through various Wikipedia articles on anti Jewish violence among Ukrainian nationalists during WW2 and it seems certain articles are contradictory. In this article it seems to discredit the 2008 SBU released documents while this article seems to take them as fact. Which case is the correct answer?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
24.200.116.208 (
talk) 02:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Re this edit: There is no doubt that ethnic Polish participation was a less significant factor than ethnic Ukrainian and specifically Ukrainian nationalist participation. But was it significant enough to mention? I think so.
"On June 30, 1941, on the eighth day of operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, a pogrom broke out in Lviv, the capital city of Eastern Galicia. Ukrainians, and to a lesser extent Poles, massacred their Jewish neighbors and fellow citizens.
The moderate Ukrainian politician, Kost′ Pan′kivs′kyi, wrote: ‘Starting on 1 July, anti-Jewish excesses went through the city [L′viv] on the initiative of the German army.… The urban scum exploited this opportunity and joined this action…. [T]his scum [was] almost exclusively Polish, robbed and beat Jews, wore blue-and-yellow insignia, and tried to speak Ukrainian. I personally experienced such actions when the street toughs attacked our Jewish and non-Jewish coworkers’ (Kost′ Pan′kivs′kyi, Vid derzhavy do Komitetu (New York; Toronto: Kliuchi, 1957), 35-36). Pan′kivs′kyi, a critic of the OUN, is credible, and his claim that he ‘personally experienced such instances’ has to be taken seriously
Ukrainian memoirists emphasize that there was a large Polish participation in the violence. Kost' Pan'kivs'kyi said that since Poles made up the majority of the lumpen population of Lviv, it was natural that they were the ones who were beating Jews in the streets.135 Both Pan'kivs'kyi and Ievhen Nakonechnyi wrote that Polish pogromists would often don yellow-and-blue armbands, but they could be recognized by how feebly they spoke Ukrainian.136 It may well be true that Polish criminals used the occasion of the pogrom to rob Jewish apartments,137 but it is significant that they chose to disguise themselves as Ukrainian militiamen. The presence of Polish pogromists in Lviv in 1941 finds reflection in other documentation. As Tamara Branitsky remembered the crowd that tormented her, she said that they looked like Ukrainians to her and her family, but probably Polish people were there too.138 Rose Moskowitz identified the crowds that attacked Jews in Lviv as Poles. After the Germans took Lviv in July, they let the Polish population do what they pleased, she said; “and you can imagine what they liked to do”—they were beating up Jewish people on the streets.139 A member of the Mel'nyk wing of OUN sent a situational report to the leadership that characterized the Lviv pogrom as a demonstration of Polish power: “Between the departure of the Bolsheviks and the arrival of the żermans, the Poles on their own authority organized a Jewish pogrom in order perhaps to certify the Polishness of Lviv.”140 Thus, the urban crowd that participated in the pogrom was of mixed nationality.
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 09:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)