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I've created this article as similar articles exist for other countries, too. ( Finland proper, Sweden proper, China proper, [1]) -- Matthead 05:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This part of an article is obviously biased - it does not cite sources, it claims that "Lithuanian state should be credated" although it has been created quite a long ago ( Mindaugas anyone), and recreated (please read some books, huh?)), it does state that Lithuania Minor should be re-lithuanised (sorry, how can you re-anything that has been plundered and colonised by force ?) Another one BiiiG mistake - Antanas Smetona in nowadys Lithuania is not perceived as a national hero - he's considered a looser following Soviet propaganda. Another section of an idea of Smetona's article "having influence on interwar period" is an utterly absurd - he did write his article in USA, and it has been left unfinished. So my conclusion - read some books before you go onto territory you do not know. -- Lokyz 18:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
this teritory was "deatched" not because of Lithuanian nationalism, but because of Antante's action to tame Imperialistic Germany. and it was claimed by different newly born (in some respect - re-born, like Lithuania) nations like Second Polish Republic, that didn't have even minority of population around there.-- Lokyz 19:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Another one point - this is article about Lithuania Propria, not Lithuania minor, so this info does not belong here.-- Lokyz 08:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Lithuania proper means a land, which location is discussed. Later the rulers of this land expanded own power to other lands - thus Grand duchy of Lithuania emerged and this part of Grand duchy of Lithuania where Lithuanians lived was named Lithuania Proper or simply Lithuania. For Antanas Smetona book should be written separate article, I think it's impossible to find reliable and verifiable data where is written that Lithuania Proper means something more. -- 81.7.98.250 08:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The introduction says that Lita is the "Jewish" name for the territory. Is this referring to Hebrew or Yiddish? Olessi 17:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Please stop putting Yemalovich POV map - his theories are utterly denied(even by Belarus scholars, as a provided reference shows) and do not have anything to do with Lithuania proper, but rather with "national pride" class literature fantasies. These fantasies are not recognised internationally as valid. It does contradict to the whole text of the article, and is irrelevant.
Critics of factual errors of his writings are provided, they are indeed numerous. The same goes for "linguistical" toponyms localization, that does not have anything in common with historical tradition of place names (as article Name of Lithuania shows. It is no wonder, because, as much I know, Yermalovich was educated as literature teacher, not as historian or linguist. -- Lokyz 19:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Toponyms are VERY hard data about nations' areals. Belarus is full of Baltic toponyms, especially hydronyms. Localisation of "Litva"-derived toponyms in upper Neman region is in good correspondence also with literature sources, including provided references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakarasov ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Is ethnographic Lithuania ( [5], [6], [7]) the same concept as Lithuania proper? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Just because according to this site [8] 2 ou Adverb (a) place where; hence Russie Blanche ou LituaniQUE (note - not LituaniE) - is Whithe Ruthenia of Lithuania, or if you wish - Lithuanian (White) Ruthenia. Anyway if you insist on ou=or then it will be Ruthenia White or Lithuanian (Ruthenia being the name and Whitor or Lithuanian adjectives), but in no case or Lithuania (i.e. double name).-- Lokyz ( talk) 11:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
"Scholars often use term Lithuania proper to refer to lands inhabited by ethnic Lithuanians" I see only one note by Antanas Venclova who is not a historian.
"no Lithuanian schools were in these territories at all." - this is mistake, Lithuanian schools were in Marijampolis (established in 1905, never closed), in Gervyaty in Belarus (established in 1920), in Vilnius (established in 1915, never closed), in Švenčionys (established in 1918) in Polish and Soviet times, everywhere where lived significant number of Lithuanians.
"many people in these territories now speaking Belarussian do refer to themselwes as Lithuanians" - this is OR or false. In Lithuania lives only 131 Lithuanians with Belarusian as mother tongue, official site - [9]. 81.7.98.250 ( talk) 07:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Lida, Smorhon are Belarusian cities with Belarusian population. Are you sure they EVER spoke Lithuanian? They probably call themselves "Litviny" remembering the historical name of the region, NOT nationality. If the language doesnt make etnicity what does ?-- Bakarasov ( talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, not signing of the known editors is considered a Sockpuppetry. Cheers.-- Lokyz ( talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
at the maps ==Removed misinterpertation==
Sadly your chosen excerpt does speak about 16th century an onwards, and does not mention Lithuania Proper term in the relevant term i.e. 13th century to the middle of 16th century, as first Ruthenians were allowed to settle to the east of Lyda. By the way, Navahrudek province was not and is not considered ever been part of Lithuania proper. Please be more careful when you read sources.-- Lokyz ( talk) 20:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to speak about the special supression of Lithuanian culture and language in Russian Empire. Publishing and teaching in Belarusian, regardless of Cyrillic/Latin script was also prohibited at the same time (19th), in the same area. Lithuanian is not spoken in Belarus not because of supression but because it has never been spoken, as the population is Slavic and speak Belarusian (Well, now actually Russian, except of rural areas).-- Bakarasov ( talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There are 2 contradictory statements in the lead of article:
"Lithuania proper ... Didžioji Lietuva, literally: 'Genuine Lithuania'..." |
"... sometimes is also called Lithuania Major (Lithuanian: Didžioji Lietuva)..." |
Which translation is truthful? As far as I know, Lithuanian word didžioji means "great, big, major" (cf. Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė) but I can be wrong, I'm not native speaker. But I'm sure this word cann't be translated in two ways; "genuine" and "major" are certainly two very different terms. Could be some Lithuanian editor so kind and repair it? -- Iaroslavvs ( talk) 18:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Maps and whole article with statements like "Thus Grand Duchy of Lithuania was divided into such historical regions: Samogitia, Lithuania Proper and White Ruthenia." is no less than chauvinistic propaganda. Everyone who has some brain knows that grand duchy exists when its formed of at least 2 duchies. And the full name of GDL was "Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Samogitians", later "Grand duchy of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians". It's even comfirmed by chronicles which were named the same: 1) The chronicles of Lithuania and Samogitians, 2) The chronicles of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians 3) The chronicles of Poland, Lithuania, Samogitia and whole Rusia [ATR] Velks ( talk) 19:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
The article even contradicts the maps it refers to. On the map from 1570 the word "Litvania" clearly reaches the regions of today`s Belarus to the south of the Prypiac` river where Pinsko = Pinsk (Brest-Litovsk anyone ?). There is also plenty of other maps where Lithuana fits today's Belarus. I recommend the author to read the Lithuanian Statut if he wants to know what "Lithuania" historically means. P.S.: Every belarusian is a lithuanian, because Belarus was part of Lithuania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AA13:1101:7300:F8C7:C49C:D8DD:7511 ( talk) 20:20, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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Participant Ke an abruptly unmotivatedly removes all the mentions of Belarus from the article, although it is clearly shown by authoritative bodies (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus among others) that subject of the article existed partially within what today is Belarus.
The main problem with you adding Lithuania Proper to Belarussian regions is that by definition that gives the impression that ALL of LITHUANIA PROPER (Žemaitija, Suvalkija, etc.) is suddenly ETHNOGRAPHICALLY BELARUSSIAN. I hope you realise that this is false. When one speaks about provinces, they are inseparable from their ethnicity - e.g. Moravia is a Czech region, but not a German region if it was controlled by Austrians & Germans at different times, Lorraine is a French region and not a German region, even if it was controlled by Germans for a few generations, Northern Ireland is an Irish and not an English region, even if was and is controlled by English, and so on, so on. I wish to ensure you realise that governmental control (e.g. German, English) of territory doesn't warrant naming the region as German or English. Same here.
Also, if you are pointing to prior to the XXIth century, the region was under no circumstance Belarussian. I have gotten the impression you identify the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as Belarus, and hence all other territories controlled by Belarussians. This is insane, as the roles were actually reversed - Lithuanians from Lithuania Proper ruled their Grand Duchy, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.
On a side note, Lithuanians would be happy if Belarussians learnt Lithuanian and spoke it as their mother tongue, embracing Lithuanian history as their own. Yet the main issue is Belarussians keep on taking Lithuanian history, crediting it as their own, and not bothering with the language of their ancestors, who were not Russians, but Lithuanians. You can't have a cake and eat it at the same time. Best -- Itzhak Rosenberg ( talk) 16:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi! How are you? Please, feel free to use the largest wiki-article about Lithuania proper from be-tarask:Літва in Belarusian Classical Orthography to expand the article here with translated text. It has 116 sources, including 49 in English, French, German, Polish, Russian & Ukrainian languages from the XVII century till the XXI century. There is 8 times more content than in the corresponding English article. It would also be nice to translate the article about Belarusian Classical Wikipedia itself, in order to overcome a personal bias against it, including the one persistently revealed by a user in this edition of Wikipedia. Best wishes,-- W ( talk) 07:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
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I've created this article as similar articles exist for other countries, too. ( Finland proper, Sweden proper, China proper, [1]) -- Matthead 05:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This part of an article is obviously biased - it does not cite sources, it claims that "Lithuanian state should be credated" although it has been created quite a long ago ( Mindaugas anyone), and recreated (please read some books, huh?)), it does state that Lithuania Minor should be re-lithuanised (sorry, how can you re-anything that has been plundered and colonised by force ?) Another one BiiiG mistake - Antanas Smetona in nowadys Lithuania is not perceived as a national hero - he's considered a looser following Soviet propaganda. Another section of an idea of Smetona's article "having influence on interwar period" is an utterly absurd - he did write his article in USA, and it has been left unfinished. So my conclusion - read some books before you go onto territory you do not know. -- Lokyz 18:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
this teritory was "deatched" not because of Lithuanian nationalism, but because of Antante's action to tame Imperialistic Germany. and it was claimed by different newly born (in some respect - re-born, like Lithuania) nations like Second Polish Republic, that didn't have even minority of population around there.-- Lokyz 19:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Another one point - this is article about Lithuania Propria, not Lithuania minor, so this info does not belong here.-- Lokyz 08:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Lithuania proper means a land, which location is discussed. Later the rulers of this land expanded own power to other lands - thus Grand duchy of Lithuania emerged and this part of Grand duchy of Lithuania where Lithuanians lived was named Lithuania Proper or simply Lithuania. For Antanas Smetona book should be written separate article, I think it's impossible to find reliable and verifiable data where is written that Lithuania Proper means something more. -- 81.7.98.250 08:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The introduction says that Lita is the "Jewish" name for the territory. Is this referring to Hebrew or Yiddish? Olessi 17:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Please stop putting Yemalovich POV map - his theories are utterly denied(even by Belarus scholars, as a provided reference shows) and do not have anything to do with Lithuania proper, but rather with "national pride" class literature fantasies. These fantasies are not recognised internationally as valid. It does contradict to the whole text of the article, and is irrelevant.
Critics of factual errors of his writings are provided, they are indeed numerous. The same goes for "linguistical" toponyms localization, that does not have anything in common with historical tradition of place names (as article Name of Lithuania shows. It is no wonder, because, as much I know, Yermalovich was educated as literature teacher, not as historian or linguist. -- Lokyz 19:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Toponyms are VERY hard data about nations' areals. Belarus is full of Baltic toponyms, especially hydronyms. Localisation of "Litva"-derived toponyms in upper Neman region is in good correspondence also with literature sources, including provided references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakarasov ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Is ethnographic Lithuania ( [5], [6], [7]) the same concept as Lithuania proper? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Just because according to this site [8] 2 ou Adverb (a) place where; hence Russie Blanche ou LituaniQUE (note - not LituaniE) - is Whithe Ruthenia of Lithuania, or if you wish - Lithuanian (White) Ruthenia. Anyway if you insist on ou=or then it will be Ruthenia White or Lithuanian (Ruthenia being the name and Whitor or Lithuanian adjectives), but in no case or Lithuania (i.e. double name).-- Lokyz ( talk) 11:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
"Scholars often use term Lithuania proper to refer to lands inhabited by ethnic Lithuanians" I see only one note by Antanas Venclova who is not a historian.
"no Lithuanian schools were in these territories at all." - this is mistake, Lithuanian schools were in Marijampolis (established in 1905, never closed), in Gervyaty in Belarus (established in 1920), in Vilnius (established in 1915, never closed), in Švenčionys (established in 1918) in Polish and Soviet times, everywhere where lived significant number of Lithuanians.
"many people in these territories now speaking Belarussian do refer to themselwes as Lithuanians" - this is OR or false. In Lithuania lives only 131 Lithuanians with Belarusian as mother tongue, official site - [9]. 81.7.98.250 ( talk) 07:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Lida, Smorhon are Belarusian cities with Belarusian population. Are you sure they EVER spoke Lithuanian? They probably call themselves "Litviny" remembering the historical name of the region, NOT nationality. If the language doesnt make etnicity what does ?-- Bakarasov ( talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, not signing of the known editors is considered a Sockpuppetry. Cheers.-- Lokyz ( talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
at the maps ==Removed misinterpertation==
Sadly your chosen excerpt does speak about 16th century an onwards, and does not mention Lithuania Proper term in the relevant term i.e. 13th century to the middle of 16th century, as first Ruthenians were allowed to settle to the east of Lyda. By the way, Navahrudek province was not and is not considered ever been part of Lithuania proper. Please be more careful when you read sources.-- Lokyz ( talk) 20:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to speak about the special supression of Lithuanian culture and language in Russian Empire. Publishing and teaching in Belarusian, regardless of Cyrillic/Latin script was also prohibited at the same time (19th), in the same area. Lithuanian is not spoken in Belarus not because of supression but because it has never been spoken, as the population is Slavic and speak Belarusian (Well, now actually Russian, except of rural areas).-- Bakarasov ( talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There are 2 contradictory statements in the lead of article:
"Lithuania proper ... Didžioji Lietuva, literally: 'Genuine Lithuania'..." |
"... sometimes is also called Lithuania Major (Lithuanian: Didžioji Lietuva)..." |
Which translation is truthful? As far as I know, Lithuanian word didžioji means "great, big, major" (cf. Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė) but I can be wrong, I'm not native speaker. But I'm sure this word cann't be translated in two ways; "genuine" and "major" are certainly two very different terms. Could be some Lithuanian editor so kind and repair it? -- Iaroslavvs ( talk) 18:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Maps and whole article with statements like "Thus Grand Duchy of Lithuania was divided into such historical regions: Samogitia, Lithuania Proper and White Ruthenia." is no less than chauvinistic propaganda. Everyone who has some brain knows that grand duchy exists when its formed of at least 2 duchies. And the full name of GDL was "Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Samogitians", later "Grand duchy of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians". It's even comfirmed by chronicles which were named the same: 1) The chronicles of Lithuania and Samogitians, 2) The chronicles of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians 3) The chronicles of Poland, Lithuania, Samogitia and whole Rusia [ATR] Velks ( talk) 19:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
The article even contradicts the maps it refers to. On the map from 1570 the word "Litvania" clearly reaches the regions of today`s Belarus to the south of the Prypiac` river where Pinsko = Pinsk (Brest-Litovsk anyone ?). There is also plenty of other maps where Lithuana fits today's Belarus. I recommend the author to read the Lithuanian Statut if he wants to know what "Lithuania" historically means. P.S.: Every belarusian is a lithuanian, because Belarus was part of Lithuania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AA13:1101:7300:F8C7:C49C:D8DD:7511 ( talk) 20:20, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Lithuania proper. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Participant Ke an abruptly unmotivatedly removes all the mentions of Belarus from the article, although it is clearly shown by authoritative bodies (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus among others) that subject of the article existed partially within what today is Belarus.
The main problem with you adding Lithuania Proper to Belarussian regions is that by definition that gives the impression that ALL of LITHUANIA PROPER (Žemaitija, Suvalkija, etc.) is suddenly ETHNOGRAPHICALLY BELARUSSIAN. I hope you realise that this is false. When one speaks about provinces, they are inseparable from their ethnicity - e.g. Moravia is a Czech region, but not a German region if it was controlled by Austrians & Germans at different times, Lorraine is a French region and not a German region, even if it was controlled by Germans for a few generations, Northern Ireland is an Irish and not an English region, even if was and is controlled by English, and so on, so on. I wish to ensure you realise that governmental control (e.g. German, English) of territory doesn't warrant naming the region as German or English. Same here.
Also, if you are pointing to prior to the XXIth century, the region was under no circumstance Belarussian. I have gotten the impression you identify the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as Belarus, and hence all other territories controlled by Belarussians. This is insane, as the roles were actually reversed - Lithuanians from Lithuania Proper ruled their Grand Duchy, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.
On a side note, Lithuanians would be happy if Belarussians learnt Lithuanian and spoke it as their mother tongue, embracing Lithuanian history as their own. Yet the main issue is Belarussians keep on taking Lithuanian history, crediting it as their own, and not bothering with the language of their ancestors, who were not Russians, but Lithuanians. You can't have a cake and eat it at the same time. Best -- Itzhak Rosenberg ( talk) 16:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi! How are you? Please, feel free to use the largest wiki-article about Lithuania proper from be-tarask:Літва in Belarusian Classical Orthography to expand the article here with translated text. It has 116 sources, including 49 in English, French, German, Polish, Russian & Ukrainian languages from the XVII century till the XXI century. There is 8 times more content than in the corresponding English article. It would also be nice to translate the article about Belarusian Classical Wikipedia itself, in order to overcome a personal bias against it, including the one persistently revealed by a user in this edition of Wikipedia. Best wishes,-- W ( talk) 07:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)