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Well, there has been some debate about someone being a slave & someone who is enslaved. Such as there being slight irritation that Lincoln freed the slaves but didn't free the black man. In other words, he freed them, but still considered them slaves.
That's why I chose the word "Famous People In Slavery" from the "Slaves" page. This isn't a major sticking point as the distinction is slight & from what I understand it isn't that big of a deal at this point. However, if we could start thinking in that direction, perhaps we'd find a better way to title this article? -- Duemellon 15:27, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's not about political correctness. It's about clarity in the English language. The appropriate way to define this list is closer to 'List of Famous Enslaved People". This is a list of people that other people have heard of. Regarding your point about Abraham Lincoln, I'm baffled. Whether Abraham Lincoln understood that the enslaved people in the United States were now free or not is beside the point. In practice, those people were freed. That's what matters. Notwithstanding the fact that Lincoln was shot dead not long after the conclusion of the Civil War, you seem to be giving too much weight to the confusions of a single human being. If you're looking for actual intelligent thought about slavery in the United States, you should look to Lincoln's contemporaries like Frederick Douglas, who was far more logical and sensible about the matter.
However, I agree that this page should be modified to reflect more on the experiences of people who were enslaved in the United States. It seems to have a euro-centric approach. It doesn't even talk about the earlier ethnic-based slavery, that of the Jewish people in Egypt. God commanded Moses to lead his people out of slavery and even drowned all the enslavers who pursued God's people, according to the Bible. The Bible may not be relied on as a literal reference, but it's generally correct about this issue at a high-level. That story is actually found in the evidence of the historical record. Private Person ( talk) 02:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, slavery has been a fact in many countries through history, but it seems arbitrary to list people here from so many different cultures and different centuries where the circumstances are very different. Slavery as a "category" would appear to cover that aspect. Yes, I read the limited discussion on keeping this list. Parkwells ( talk)
If you look at the edit history of this discussion, User: Parkwells actually edited the first text in this discussion on 16 May 2014, years after the IP-number commented it, so the comment of the IP-number now appears to answer a totally different text than he/she did originally. The original first comment of this discussion was:
This text above is what IP 85.226.44.74 originally commented on, not the text Parkwell has pasted in 2014. This must be pointed out: It must be clear what the IP originally commented on. When I saw Parkwells edit, I was close to reverting it, and wondered if it was truly according to rules to make such an edit, which discredited the whole discussion and made it appear different from what it was. My opinion is that a list consisted of only people enslaved in the united states is certainly narrow-minded, breaks NPOV and damage the use of Wikipedia as an international Encyclopedia. Thank you-- Aciram ( talk) 13:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Gave me a good laugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.51.4 ( talk) 03:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
"To be included in this list the person must have a Wikipedia article showing that they were slaves, or must have references showing that they were slaves and are notable."
This seems like something you might post at the top of the talk page but it really seems out of place on the article page. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 02:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Jermain Wesley Loguen is under "L". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEBA:2F80:BC4C:E8DD:62E8:52EF ( talk) 23:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Why Genghis Khan is not in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorberino ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move these back — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 15:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
– This is a request to revert various undiscussed moves from titles using the term "slaves" to those using "enslaved people". I recently performed those reversions, but Drmies reverted my reversions. (There is also related discussion on Drmies's talk.) From the article titles policy, titles should be recognisable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent. I believe that the term "slave" is more concise, more natural, and more common than "enslaved person". For example, on Google, there are 1,030,000,000 results for "slave", but only 39,100,000 results for "enslaved person", much of which are about the term itself. It appears that some arguments for "enslaved person" are that it emphasises that slaves are people, but I think this is pointless: a slave is defined as "someone forbidden to quit their service for another person (an enslaver) who treats that slave as their property" (bolding applied; from Slavery). I also believe that people in other conditions are generally referred to with a noun for people in that condition, if there is one. Sincerely, Tol ( talk | contribs) @ 03:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
When you say a person was a slave, they are in a category, it was something they were, they were born that way, they die that way, maybe they can escape the category and become an ex-slave or a former slave, but that's what they are.- that is an excellent description of the system of American racial chattel slavery present before 1865. I'm not sure why that is an argument to not use the word "slave" in articles describing that system. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:47, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Anyway, "enslaved person" as common parlance: "Column: Language matters: The shift from ‘slave’ to ‘enslaved person’ may be difficult, but it’s important", "Slave or Enslaved Person? It’s not just an academic debate for historians of American slavery (and that's from 2015 already), "The Vocabulary of Freedom", "Language of Slavery", "Four hundred years after enslaved Africans were first brought to Virginia, most Americans still don’t know the full story of slavery", "Who Were America’s Enslaved? A New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers", and I could go on. Drmies ( talk) 15:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia should have a global and not an American perspective. From a non-American standpoint, the word slave appears to be a neutral synonym to an enslaved person.Move #3 to List of last survivors of American slavery per 力. feminist (t) 11:37, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
@ MSGJ: I don't think that you determined consensus correctly regarding List of the last surviving American slaves. Four editors (including myself) supported List of last survivors of American slavery, and nobody opposed it. I just fixed it, of course everybody is free to undo and / or discuss my action. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 07:32, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I recently made an edit to remove many definite articles from this page in the interest of clarity and brevity. Another editor reverted it. I propose that we change phrases like "a white girl who was enslaved by the Cherokee" to "a white girl who was enslaved by Cherokees". First, it's simpler and shorter, and we should try to keep entries concise in a list as large as this one. Secondly, it's more accurate. She was enslaved by some Cherokees, not by the Old Cherokee Nation. It's like writing that Sally Hemings was enslaved by the United States (or the Americans), rather than by Thomas Jefferson. pburka ( talk) 23:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Simply reverting changes because you dislike them is disruptive. I asked you to discuss individual cases you disagree with. Let's start with Antonia Bonnelli. Our biography of Bonnelli says she was captured by Miccosukee Indians. Please explain why you prefer the version that says she was "enslaved by the Mikasuki tribe", which has a different meaning. pburka ( talk) 18:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 25 March 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Well, there has been some debate about someone being a slave & someone who is enslaved. Such as there being slight irritation that Lincoln freed the slaves but didn't free the black man. In other words, he freed them, but still considered them slaves.
That's why I chose the word "Famous People In Slavery" from the "Slaves" page. This isn't a major sticking point as the distinction is slight & from what I understand it isn't that big of a deal at this point. However, if we could start thinking in that direction, perhaps we'd find a better way to title this article? -- Duemellon 15:27, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's not about political correctness. It's about clarity in the English language. The appropriate way to define this list is closer to 'List of Famous Enslaved People". This is a list of people that other people have heard of. Regarding your point about Abraham Lincoln, I'm baffled. Whether Abraham Lincoln understood that the enslaved people in the United States were now free or not is beside the point. In practice, those people were freed. That's what matters. Notwithstanding the fact that Lincoln was shot dead not long after the conclusion of the Civil War, you seem to be giving too much weight to the confusions of a single human being. If you're looking for actual intelligent thought about slavery in the United States, you should look to Lincoln's contemporaries like Frederick Douglas, who was far more logical and sensible about the matter.
However, I agree that this page should be modified to reflect more on the experiences of people who were enslaved in the United States. It seems to have a euro-centric approach. It doesn't even talk about the earlier ethnic-based slavery, that of the Jewish people in Egypt. God commanded Moses to lead his people out of slavery and even drowned all the enslavers who pursued God's people, according to the Bible. The Bible may not be relied on as a literal reference, but it's generally correct about this issue at a high-level. That story is actually found in the evidence of the historical record. Private Person ( talk) 02:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, slavery has been a fact in many countries through history, but it seems arbitrary to list people here from so many different cultures and different centuries where the circumstances are very different. Slavery as a "category" would appear to cover that aspect. Yes, I read the limited discussion on keeping this list. Parkwells ( talk)
If you look at the edit history of this discussion, User: Parkwells actually edited the first text in this discussion on 16 May 2014, years after the IP-number commented it, so the comment of the IP-number now appears to answer a totally different text than he/she did originally. The original first comment of this discussion was:
This text above is what IP 85.226.44.74 originally commented on, not the text Parkwell has pasted in 2014. This must be pointed out: It must be clear what the IP originally commented on. When I saw Parkwells edit, I was close to reverting it, and wondered if it was truly according to rules to make such an edit, which discredited the whole discussion and made it appear different from what it was. My opinion is that a list consisted of only people enslaved in the united states is certainly narrow-minded, breaks NPOV and damage the use of Wikipedia as an international Encyclopedia. Thank you-- Aciram ( talk) 13:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Gave me a good laugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.51.4 ( talk) 03:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
"To be included in this list the person must have a Wikipedia article showing that they were slaves, or must have references showing that they were slaves and are notable."
This seems like something you might post at the top of the talk page but it really seems out of place on the article page. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 02:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Jermain Wesley Loguen is under "L". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEBA:2F80:BC4C:E8DD:62E8:52EF ( talk) 23:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Why Genghis Khan is not in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorberino ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move these back — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 15:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
– This is a request to revert various undiscussed moves from titles using the term "slaves" to those using "enslaved people". I recently performed those reversions, but Drmies reverted my reversions. (There is also related discussion on Drmies's talk.) From the article titles policy, titles should be recognisable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent. I believe that the term "slave" is more concise, more natural, and more common than "enslaved person". For example, on Google, there are 1,030,000,000 results for "slave", but only 39,100,000 results for "enslaved person", much of which are about the term itself. It appears that some arguments for "enslaved person" are that it emphasises that slaves are people, but I think this is pointless: a slave is defined as "someone forbidden to quit their service for another person (an enslaver) who treats that slave as their property" (bolding applied; from Slavery). I also believe that people in other conditions are generally referred to with a noun for people in that condition, if there is one. Sincerely, Tol ( talk | contribs) @ 03:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
When you say a person was a slave, they are in a category, it was something they were, they were born that way, they die that way, maybe they can escape the category and become an ex-slave or a former slave, but that's what they are.- that is an excellent description of the system of American racial chattel slavery present before 1865. I'm not sure why that is an argument to not use the word "slave" in articles describing that system. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:47, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Anyway, "enslaved person" as common parlance: "Column: Language matters: The shift from ‘slave’ to ‘enslaved person’ may be difficult, but it’s important", "Slave or Enslaved Person? It’s not just an academic debate for historians of American slavery (and that's from 2015 already), "The Vocabulary of Freedom", "Language of Slavery", "Four hundred years after enslaved Africans were first brought to Virginia, most Americans still don’t know the full story of slavery", "Who Were America’s Enslaved? A New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers", and I could go on. Drmies ( talk) 15:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia should have a global and not an American perspective. From a non-American standpoint, the word slave appears to be a neutral synonym to an enslaved person.Move #3 to List of last survivors of American slavery per 力. feminist (t) 11:37, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
@ MSGJ: I don't think that you determined consensus correctly regarding List of the last surviving American slaves. Four editors (including myself) supported List of last survivors of American slavery, and nobody opposed it. I just fixed it, of course everybody is free to undo and / or discuss my action. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 07:32, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I recently made an edit to remove many definite articles from this page in the interest of clarity and brevity. Another editor reverted it. I propose that we change phrases like "a white girl who was enslaved by the Cherokee" to "a white girl who was enslaved by Cherokees". First, it's simpler and shorter, and we should try to keep entries concise in a list as large as this one. Secondly, it's more accurate. She was enslaved by some Cherokees, not by the Old Cherokee Nation. It's like writing that Sally Hemings was enslaved by the United States (or the Americans), rather than by Thomas Jefferson. pburka ( talk) 23:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Simply reverting changes because you dislike them is disruptive. I asked you to discuss individual cases you disagree with. Let's start with Antonia Bonnelli. Our biography of Bonnelli says she was captured by Miccosukee Indians. Please explain why you prefer the version that says she was "enslaved by the Mikasuki tribe", which has a different meaning. pburka ( talk) 18:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)