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Was he actually using the name of Sirvydas, or is it rather a modern version of his original name? // Halibu tt 18:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Monsieur le Halibutt, would you care to reread title of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in polish? And would you care to read, what is stated in Union of Lublin? Anykščiai is not and newer was Poland, so i do not see any need to put Polish name here. It's lithuania, and everyone speaks Lithuanian. You might come and check. And of course, because ha was speaking lithuanian he referred to himself in Lithuanian, its quite clear from latin form of his name. BTW Vilna - is Jewish name of Wilnius, not polish. -- Lokyz 18:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And does it really matter?
Przemyśl has never been Ukraine, yet the Ukrainian name is mentioned there. And..? As to his name, it might be a discovery for you, but it's his Lithuanian name that is different from both Polish and Latin name - and those were the ones he apparently was using himself:
[1]
[2] . So, let me repeat my question: is it some original name, or rather a modern translation to Lithuanian (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone?). As to Vilna - it's not only Jewish, Ruthenian and Belarusian name for that town, but it's also the English name, prominent until really recently. That's why instead of fighting whether to call it Wilno (as most of its inhabitants called it) or Vilnius (as most of them do now), why not stick to a neutral name? //
Halibu
tt
19:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course it is his name. And as of polish - I'd doubt he preceived himself as such. He was born Lithuanian, otherwise he wouldn't study this language, don't you thnink? Here you go - a proof that there were educated lithuanian speking persons in XVII cewntury.-- Lokyz 19:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Check the two documents I linked above. Both have his surname put in Polish, the earlier has his Christian name in Latin, the latter in Polish as well. As for what you call "modernity" here, I have no idea, but I believe it's not important here. Whether folk lore changes or not does not influence the language much, or does it. And of course modern Polish language was formed in 19th century (and indeed Mickiewicz had a huge influence over it, he even invented a popular Christian name used to our times). Yet, this does not change the fact that the two documents we have here do not put his name as Konstantinas Sirvydas. So let me become even more boring and ask the same question again... Did he actually use the name of Konstantinas Sirvydas anywhere - anytime, or is it a modern translation of his 17th century name? // Halibu tt 19:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so now google counts do not count, and contemporary speling counts. That probably would suggest me moving to Jagello and Radziwill The Black issues. Neither of them were Polish, and neither one of them were spelled modern way. Go ahead, move the page. That would be fun:)-- Lokyz 20:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Instead of arguing with Halibutt, some of you should appreciate his desire to copy edit your article. By arguing with him, you take away his abilities and the time he could spend on the many Polish articles in English WK, that need lot's of work and copy editing. I still hope to see some progress on the Wojna kokosza. You know Hal, BTW, Lithuanians call Hitler, Hitleris and Pilsudski, Pilsudskis. Why does that bother you so much (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone)? Jerzy Waszyngton, which is how George Washington (check Polish link), is written in Polish, doesn't bother me at all. Dr. Dan 21:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. And Hal, maybe you'll have better luck than I had, when I put the Lithuanian name for Lublin, in the article way back when. It lasted a couple of hours. Could you do that for me?
By OT, do you mean the Old Testament, because my remarks are far from "off topic". The Washington and Pilsudski comparisons are to help you Focus like a Laser with your problem regarding the Lithuanization of "foreign names". And you certainly must know the Lithuanian name for Lublin, if you know the Polish name for Anyksciai. I suspect this more because you've demonstrated your knowledge to me, of what the proper name in English is for Kraków. Dr. Dan 05:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure I do. What does (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone?), have to do with (the) article on Konstantinas Sirvydas? And thanks for letting everyone know that his name in Latin and Polish are the same. Dr. Dan 05:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. It's Liublinas, do be an angel, and put it in the Lublin article for me. And if you have time, put it in Polish Wiki, too, for the Polish readers to know what it is. "Knowledge is Power" -Dr. Dan
Halibutt, explain please? Juraune 08:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Juraune, perhaps you have the right idea. Maybe we should rename Vilnius to Wilno in the English WK. This would stop a lot of bickering. Since we already have Krakow instead of Cracow, that one is settled. Changing Rome to Rzym, will be harder, but we can try, can't we? Dr. Dan 14:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This question has one aspect, that's, perhaps, psychological. User:Halibutt wasn't the first Pole, who accused Lithuanians to unfairly lithuanize Polish names. Well, when Poland and Lithuania had the common state, changing of name variants depending on language, according some traditional forms, was common practice. So, nobody objected when Polish surname Pac had being converted to Pocius in Lithuanian. And presently, when Lithuanians talk about a person from this period from Lithuania, they use to apply traditional Lithuanian forms, particularly if a person was known to be Lithuanian. It's so. But Lithuanians never apply this lithuanizing to persons that are from other periods or not from Lithuania, except few well-known figures, connected with Lithuania, like Adam Mickiewicz or Oscar Milosz (the last sometimes used the lithuanized form of his name himself). But everybody, who have read a Lithuanian newspaper knows, that sometimes strange forms of names can be found there. The first part of it are endings. Lithuanian nouns always have endings, so we add them to any foreign name. It seems like: Bush -> Bush'as. Poles and many others do the same, except the Nominative case, that remains clear. But it's not the all. Lithuanian language always used the so-called phonetic writing for foreign names, especially using it in the Soviet period. It was easier to translate Russian texts using this form of writing, that was important then. The phonetic rewriting is not a lituanization in a proper sense of the word, and its objective isn't to make a word more Lithuanian, but to make a word more readable. So, Bush'as ->Bušas. I'm, personally, against this form of writing, because it warps the written form of a name, but this writing still remains popular in Lithuania. Even among Lithuanian Poles, that often use it declaring their surnames, although having right to use Polish forms and graphics in personal documents. So we should conclude, that in Lublin --> Lublin'as --> Liublinas the last isn't a special Lithuanian name for the city, but merely a phonetically written adopting for the first word, that is, i believe, Polish. But I understand, that it can seem as a full lithuanization, being quite far from the original form.
By the way, I feel some discomfort too, when foreigners decline Lithuanian masculine names adding the second ending to the first Lithuanian one. For example, Poles do it, when they decline "Rimas – Rimasa – Rimasowi" etc. But I don't think it's a polonizing.
Returning to the article, why Lithuanians should use Polish forms presently for the names of Lithuanians of the 17th century, if they didn't used such Polish forms then, speaking Lithuanian? Perhaps our problem is, that we often leak objectively true written forms in Lithuanian, how the person called himself, but it's no doubt that Lithuanian forms were used. User:Dr. Dan is right, saying that Lithuanian language isn't an invention of the 20 century. He said in this short phrase the argument, that have also been said in discussion on Vilnius. It was, when somebody said about Vilnius, that the name of the city was changed after WWII. But in reality the word 'changed' is true for the official name of the city only. And both Lithuanian and Polish (and Ruthenian) forms of the name are just variants of the one name, that all were used simultaneously. By the way, Lithuanian form could be seen as the prototypic, the same way as many languages still use latinized Florentia instead of its derivate Italian 'Fiorenza' for the name of that Italian city. So, looking from this point, the name wasn't changed but an earlier more original name was reverted. And this is valid for many names, that were officially used in their Polish or Ruthenian forms in Lithuania of 15 – 18 centuries. -- Linas Lituanus 18:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
As for Sirvydas – i‘ve used most common and recognizable name, call it tradition. Of course it would probably better call him Širvydas (from Širvydai). I do not have any objections against latin name also. Just according recent discussions I repeat – i‘ve used the most common name in Google search Although I do agree, I’ve used some bully approach here, to find out our colleagues editors from Polish side. And it was worth it. Now we know, that Sirvydas was polish writer born in Polish city. This is unjust, don’t you think? Another issue - Anykščiai. Although Antanas Baranauskas in his late age used to call himself Antoni Baranowski, you have to understand political and social circumstances. But that’s another big story. My Grandgrandmother used to call my grandmother “chamynka”, because she was speaking Lithuanian. Altough, trust me it’s not personal issue. Just an illustration of complexity of the problem. What has here to do Antanas Baranauskas? Oh well. It has to do a lot – for example he’s interesting, just because he wrote poem not „Szilelis of Onykszta“, but somehow managed to name it „Anykščių Šilelis“.
I know this is "modern" transcribtion, because ą, š, č, ų were borrowed from Polish aand Chech languages, and some of the sylables vere invented to represent already existing sound, and of course – to separate from Polish language (because of fierce dicussions if not to call it battles with Polish ND‘ks, and ignorance of krajowcy by the NDks). It has also a lot to do with “międzymorze”. Just it is too long to explain it here. To get closer to understanding, someone needs to read a lot of books from both sides.-- Lokyz 19:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a typical example of the negative provocations that you continually put on the talk pages, "Lokyz, please calm down". Then you feign confusion and hurt, and don't understand why you're accused of it. "Opponents put in our mouth". Very interesting!
You are right Lokyz, this isn't the right place to discuss that. Btw, I read your above remarks, and can tell you you did a good job in making your points. As a matter of fact a lot better than 80%. Keep up your fine work. Dr. Dan 23:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
And last although simple question - when did you last time use your Mothers language in Poland?--Lokyz 20:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)"-- Lokyz 21:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
As per above, I've been waiting for half a year for a single piece of evidence that the modern Lithuanian name was known to the guy in question. Apparently it was more than enough time to offend me a number of times, so I guess if there were any documents to support such a name, they would be presented. I took the liberty to move the article to his Latin name, the one he apparently was using himself. Hope Latin is the way to go for all sides involved. // Halibu tt 03:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page, per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Konstantinas Sirvydas →
Constantinus Szyrwid — The person in question has at least two names in modern use: the Lithuanian name of Konstantinas Sirvydas and the Polish name of Konstanty Szyrwid. That's quite typical for people of the
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth who were either of mixed ancestry or simply used both Polish and their local language (be it Lithuanian, Ruthenian, Russian or any Tatar languages). However, in this context it seems that the person in question did not know the Lithuanian name and it was coined long after he was dead, just to make him sound more Lithuanian.
Half a year ago
I asked for some documents to back up the current title of that page, specifically a single instance of usage of Konstantinas Sirvydas. However, no sources have been provided. Instead I was able to find two original issues of books by the person and it seems he himself was using the Polish version of his surname (Szyrwid)
[10]
[11]. However, as Polish names seem to be problematic to some modern Lithuanians, I suggest to move it to his Latin name instead. This way both the Poles and Lithuanians shouls be happy. Besides, when using Google Books
Szyrwid beats
Sirvydas at least 3:1, even if we include certain Donna M. Sirvydas, a renown dentist of the same surname. //
Halibu
tt
15:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago I heard an argument that in such cases the latin name is most appopriate and often used. What do you think of that? As for 'Polish vs Lithuanian', I think both variants are ok, and if our Lithuanian friends prefer the Lithuanian one - I see no reason to object, this is at the very least a borderline case (as Renata showed, we have quite a few English academic refs using the L. version). And the guy researched the Lithuanian language, too.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder how relevant it is what form he used himself. What we should be using for the article's title is the name most commonly used in English language sources and this seems to be Konstantinas Sirvydas. -- Lysy talk 17:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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Was he actually using the name of Sirvydas, or is it rather a modern version of his original name? // Halibu tt 18:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Monsieur le Halibutt, would you care to reread title of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in polish? And would you care to read, what is stated in Union of Lublin? Anykščiai is not and newer was Poland, so i do not see any need to put Polish name here. It's lithuania, and everyone speaks Lithuanian. You might come and check. And of course, because ha was speaking lithuanian he referred to himself in Lithuanian, its quite clear from latin form of his name. BTW Vilna - is Jewish name of Wilnius, not polish. -- Lokyz 18:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And does it really matter?
Przemyśl has never been Ukraine, yet the Ukrainian name is mentioned there. And..? As to his name, it might be a discovery for you, but it's his Lithuanian name that is different from both Polish and Latin name - and those were the ones he apparently was using himself:
[1]
[2] . So, let me repeat my question: is it some original name, or rather a modern translation to Lithuanian (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone?). As to Vilna - it's not only Jewish, Ruthenian and Belarusian name for that town, but it's also the English name, prominent until really recently. That's why instead of fighting whether to call it Wilno (as most of its inhabitants called it) or Vilnius (as most of them do now), why not stick to a neutral name? //
Halibu
tt
19:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course it is his name. And as of polish - I'd doubt he preceived himself as such. He was born Lithuanian, otherwise he wouldn't study this language, don't you thnink? Here you go - a proof that there were educated lithuanian speking persons in XVII cewntury.-- Lokyz 19:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Check the two documents I linked above. Both have his surname put in Polish, the earlier has his Christian name in Latin, the latter in Polish as well. As for what you call "modernity" here, I have no idea, but I believe it's not important here. Whether folk lore changes or not does not influence the language much, or does it. And of course modern Polish language was formed in 19th century (and indeed Mickiewicz had a huge influence over it, he even invented a popular Christian name used to our times). Yet, this does not change the fact that the two documents we have here do not put his name as Konstantinas Sirvydas. So let me become even more boring and ask the same question again... Did he actually use the name of Konstantinas Sirvydas anywhere - anytime, or is it a modern translation of his 17th century name? // Halibu tt 19:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so now google counts do not count, and contemporary speling counts. That probably would suggest me moving to Jagello and Radziwill The Black issues. Neither of them were Polish, and neither one of them were spelled modern way. Go ahead, move the page. That would be fun:)-- Lokyz 20:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Instead of arguing with Halibutt, some of you should appreciate his desire to copy edit your article. By arguing with him, you take away his abilities and the time he could spend on the many Polish articles in English WK, that need lot's of work and copy editing. I still hope to see some progress on the Wojna kokosza. You know Hal, BTW, Lithuanians call Hitler, Hitleris and Pilsudski, Pilsudskis. Why does that bother you so much (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone)? Jerzy Waszyngton, which is how George Washington (check Polish link), is written in Polish, doesn't bother me at all. Dr. Dan 21:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. And Hal, maybe you'll have better luck than I had, when I put the Lithuanian name for Lublin, in the article way back when. It lasted a couple of hours. Could you do that for me?
By OT, do you mean the Old Testament, because my remarks are far from "off topic". The Washington and Pilsudski comparisons are to help you Focus like a Laser with your problem regarding the Lithuanization of "foreign names". And you certainly must know the Lithuanian name for Lublin, if you know the Polish name for Anyksciai. I suspect this more because you've demonstrated your knowledge to me, of what the proper name in English is for Kraków. Dr. Dan 05:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure I do. What does (Juzefas Pilsudskis anyone?), have to do with (the) article on Konstantinas Sirvydas? And thanks for letting everyone know that his name in Latin and Polish are the same. Dr. Dan 05:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. It's Liublinas, do be an angel, and put it in the Lublin article for me. And if you have time, put it in Polish Wiki, too, for the Polish readers to know what it is. "Knowledge is Power" -Dr. Dan
Halibutt, explain please? Juraune 08:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Juraune, perhaps you have the right idea. Maybe we should rename Vilnius to Wilno in the English WK. This would stop a lot of bickering. Since we already have Krakow instead of Cracow, that one is settled. Changing Rome to Rzym, will be harder, but we can try, can't we? Dr. Dan 14:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This question has one aspect, that's, perhaps, psychological. User:Halibutt wasn't the first Pole, who accused Lithuanians to unfairly lithuanize Polish names. Well, when Poland and Lithuania had the common state, changing of name variants depending on language, according some traditional forms, was common practice. So, nobody objected when Polish surname Pac had being converted to Pocius in Lithuanian. And presently, when Lithuanians talk about a person from this period from Lithuania, they use to apply traditional Lithuanian forms, particularly if a person was known to be Lithuanian. It's so. But Lithuanians never apply this lithuanizing to persons that are from other periods or not from Lithuania, except few well-known figures, connected with Lithuania, like Adam Mickiewicz or Oscar Milosz (the last sometimes used the lithuanized form of his name himself). But everybody, who have read a Lithuanian newspaper knows, that sometimes strange forms of names can be found there. The first part of it are endings. Lithuanian nouns always have endings, so we add them to any foreign name. It seems like: Bush -> Bush'as. Poles and many others do the same, except the Nominative case, that remains clear. But it's not the all. Lithuanian language always used the so-called phonetic writing for foreign names, especially using it in the Soviet period. It was easier to translate Russian texts using this form of writing, that was important then. The phonetic rewriting is not a lituanization in a proper sense of the word, and its objective isn't to make a word more Lithuanian, but to make a word more readable. So, Bush'as ->Bušas. I'm, personally, against this form of writing, because it warps the written form of a name, but this writing still remains popular in Lithuania. Even among Lithuanian Poles, that often use it declaring their surnames, although having right to use Polish forms and graphics in personal documents. So we should conclude, that in Lublin --> Lublin'as --> Liublinas the last isn't a special Lithuanian name for the city, but merely a phonetically written adopting for the first word, that is, i believe, Polish. But I understand, that it can seem as a full lithuanization, being quite far from the original form.
By the way, I feel some discomfort too, when foreigners decline Lithuanian masculine names adding the second ending to the first Lithuanian one. For example, Poles do it, when they decline "Rimas – Rimasa – Rimasowi" etc. But I don't think it's a polonizing.
Returning to the article, why Lithuanians should use Polish forms presently for the names of Lithuanians of the 17th century, if they didn't used such Polish forms then, speaking Lithuanian? Perhaps our problem is, that we often leak objectively true written forms in Lithuanian, how the person called himself, but it's no doubt that Lithuanian forms were used. User:Dr. Dan is right, saying that Lithuanian language isn't an invention of the 20 century. He said in this short phrase the argument, that have also been said in discussion on Vilnius. It was, when somebody said about Vilnius, that the name of the city was changed after WWII. But in reality the word 'changed' is true for the official name of the city only. And both Lithuanian and Polish (and Ruthenian) forms of the name are just variants of the one name, that all were used simultaneously. By the way, Lithuanian form could be seen as the prototypic, the same way as many languages still use latinized Florentia instead of its derivate Italian 'Fiorenza' for the name of that Italian city. So, looking from this point, the name wasn't changed but an earlier more original name was reverted. And this is valid for many names, that were officially used in their Polish or Ruthenian forms in Lithuania of 15 – 18 centuries. -- Linas Lituanus 18:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
As for Sirvydas – i‘ve used most common and recognizable name, call it tradition. Of course it would probably better call him Širvydas (from Širvydai). I do not have any objections against latin name also. Just according recent discussions I repeat – i‘ve used the most common name in Google search Although I do agree, I’ve used some bully approach here, to find out our colleagues editors from Polish side. And it was worth it. Now we know, that Sirvydas was polish writer born in Polish city. This is unjust, don’t you think? Another issue - Anykščiai. Although Antanas Baranauskas in his late age used to call himself Antoni Baranowski, you have to understand political and social circumstances. But that’s another big story. My Grandgrandmother used to call my grandmother “chamynka”, because she was speaking Lithuanian. Altough, trust me it’s not personal issue. Just an illustration of complexity of the problem. What has here to do Antanas Baranauskas? Oh well. It has to do a lot – for example he’s interesting, just because he wrote poem not „Szilelis of Onykszta“, but somehow managed to name it „Anykščių Šilelis“.
I know this is "modern" transcribtion, because ą, š, č, ų were borrowed from Polish aand Chech languages, and some of the sylables vere invented to represent already existing sound, and of course – to separate from Polish language (because of fierce dicussions if not to call it battles with Polish ND‘ks, and ignorance of krajowcy by the NDks). It has also a lot to do with “międzymorze”. Just it is too long to explain it here. To get closer to understanding, someone needs to read a lot of books from both sides.-- Lokyz 19:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a typical example of the negative provocations that you continually put on the talk pages, "Lokyz, please calm down". Then you feign confusion and hurt, and don't understand why you're accused of it. "Opponents put in our mouth". Very interesting!
You are right Lokyz, this isn't the right place to discuss that. Btw, I read your above remarks, and can tell you you did a good job in making your points. As a matter of fact a lot better than 80%. Keep up your fine work. Dr. Dan 23:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
And last although simple question - when did you last time use your Mothers language in Poland?--Lokyz 20:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)"-- Lokyz 21:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
As per above, I've been waiting for half a year for a single piece of evidence that the modern Lithuanian name was known to the guy in question. Apparently it was more than enough time to offend me a number of times, so I guess if there were any documents to support such a name, they would be presented. I took the liberty to move the article to his Latin name, the one he apparently was using himself. Hope Latin is the way to go for all sides involved. // Halibu tt 03:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page, per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Konstantinas Sirvydas →
Constantinus Szyrwid — The person in question has at least two names in modern use: the Lithuanian name of Konstantinas Sirvydas and the Polish name of Konstanty Szyrwid. That's quite typical for people of the
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth who were either of mixed ancestry or simply used both Polish and their local language (be it Lithuanian, Ruthenian, Russian or any Tatar languages). However, in this context it seems that the person in question did not know the Lithuanian name and it was coined long after he was dead, just to make him sound more Lithuanian.
Half a year ago
I asked for some documents to back up the current title of that page, specifically a single instance of usage of Konstantinas Sirvydas. However, no sources have been provided. Instead I was able to find two original issues of books by the person and it seems he himself was using the Polish version of his surname (Szyrwid)
[10]
[11]. However, as Polish names seem to be problematic to some modern Lithuanians, I suggest to move it to his Latin name instead. This way both the Poles and Lithuanians shouls be happy. Besides, when using Google Books
Szyrwid beats
Sirvydas at least 3:1, even if we include certain Donna M. Sirvydas, a renown dentist of the same surname. //
Halibu
tt
15:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Some time ago I heard an argument that in such cases the latin name is most appopriate and often used. What do you think of that? As for 'Polish vs Lithuanian', I think both variants are ok, and if our Lithuanian friends prefer the Lithuanian one - I see no reason to object, this is at the very least a borderline case (as Renata showed, we have quite a few English academic refs using the L. version). And the guy researched the Lithuanian language, too.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder how relevant it is what form he used himself. What we should be using for the article's title is the name most commonly used in English language sources and this seems to be Konstantinas Sirvydas. -- Lysy talk 17:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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