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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I don't think this article should say that Kim Jong Nam was assassinated until there is more confirmation. There are conflicting reports, as indicated by these sources: [1], [2], [3].-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I've noticed this page always uses a sketch instead of a real picture of him. Why is that so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.212.82.137 ( talk) 15:07, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Since we're on this topic again, is there a possibility we could leave the sketch as the image that's displayed, but in the caption add something like "For a photograph of Kim Jong-un, see this image."? That would be a good compromise as it would link to a real image of KJU while respecting Wikipedia rules on non-free content. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 04:17, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Honestly, I find it a little hard to believe there are absolutely NO free real photos of Kim Jong Un on the internet...
Surely there is a fair use justification for using a widely-published photo rather than a (free) propaganda image? 86.139.252.166 ( talk) 12:24, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Based on his father's nationality that he was Russian and Soviet (more likely half- Koryo-saram), can we presumably consider Kim Jong-il's children half-Russian including him as well? We noticed Kim Jong-un has his father's Russian heritage. 24.212.149.50 ( talk) 01:45, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
The sections "Early life and education" and "Family" need realignining. They were present the information 'independently' of each other (in both cases as if this is the first time the information is presented in the article; and the information does not entirely coincide.
Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 16:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
By dictionary definition Kim Jong-un is a dictator, yet the word doesn't appear anywhere on this page except in reference URLs. Just "Chairman". This is illogical. Is NK keeping Wiki "clean"?
Merriam-Webster Dictionary - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator a: a person granted absolute emergency power; b: one holding complete autocratic control: a person with unlimited governmental power. c: one ruling in an absolute (see absolute 2) and often oppressive way fascist dictators.
Cambridge Dictionary - http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dictator a leader who has complete power in a country and has not been elected by the people. a person who gives orders and behaves as if they have complete power
Oxford Dictionary - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dictator "A ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force."
etc etc, of course I could go on.
Yes...NOT "supreme Leader", but dictator. Please get it right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:982:4201:3CE0:29EC:5AE2:7D66:9156 ( talk) 22:40, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
We don't use dictionary definitions to determine the terminology we use in a Wikipedia article. We use reliable, published sources specifically about our subject. If you can provide a reliable source that uses the term to refer to Kim Jong-un, than so can we. Otherwise, no. General Ization Talk 23:35, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Since photography is a crime in North Korea, we may not get a better picture. So the thing on the top has a very low chance of achieving. Gary "Roach" Sanderson ( talk) 19:13, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I just uploaded the pic at right.[[:File:Kim-jong un With Shoe.jpg|thumb|"Just uploaded this... but I just ain't gettin' no answer!"]] Anythingyouwant ( talk) 15:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
FYI, this image is nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons. [6] Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
I sent an abuse report to Flickr using their online form:
I'm reporting abuse on the following page:https://www.flickr.com/photos/147463525@N04/29883338246/
It was apparently published in a 2014 newspaper article, with a credit to "Korean Central News Agency/Reuters", so I don't see how it could be public domain, or how it could have been created in 2016.
Here's a link to the newspaper article:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kim-jong-un-looks-things-redux-1461494
On the other hand, the U.S. is still technically in a state of war with North Korea, so maybe we don't respect their government's copyright?
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's identify them and systematically write to them to get a photo. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 10:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Cheers. davidguttenfelder.com is blocked where I am, but I found Pan's email and will write to him.
There were tons of foreign reporters invited for the parade and unveiling of that new housing project. We're they allowed cameras? I forget. If so, surely, one of them can release a medium or high res pic of the man. It doesn't have to be a portrait he sat for. Just one from 50 m away with a good camera. That would give is decent cropped pic. You give me names and I'll do the emailing. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 21:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
I emailed those two people a couple of weeks ago. No reply. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 20:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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If we knew that no free equivalent would become available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose for the next decade, would we then consider a non-free image today? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 20:48, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
We should be careful about our use of the words "image" and "photo". The first word is broader than the second. A talented portrait artist working in a hyper-realistic style could create an original image, or painting, of Kim Jong-un based on study of many photos rather than copying one photo. If that artist donated the image under an acceptable Creative Commons license, then this problem would be solved. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
It is agreed that not having obtained a free image for a long time and/or not expecting to obtain a free image for a long time, is not a reason to allow a non-free image of a living person. An exception is if the person is deliberately avoiding, or has no access to, the public. Is this right?
I posted the conclusion in case others in the future ask what I did and want a quick answer without a lot of reading. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:20, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
On Masem's point, one article that comes to mind is this one, where the article actually talks about the image itself. It's also a high-res portrait with no retouching, and is by far the best KJU photo that exists, so this would be the ideal route if it's acceptable under NFCC.
There was a comment earlier about a BBC article using a photo that was credited directly to the photographer, Ed Jones, although he works for AFP. I messaged him on Twitter and will update if I get a response (edit) I actually got a response in ten minutes, and was given an AFP email. This will likely not result in a free license, although I could give it a shot or message the email address to another user here.
Tonystewart14 (
talk) 04:18, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have edited the page four times, the reson is because im on a mobile device and because I don't want to risk vandalism, I edited it in four parts. Cheers! Gary "Roach" Sanderson ( talk) 02:04, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
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There does not appear to be a picture of Kim Jong-Un in his personal details section. I feel adding a picture would help complete this wikipedia page. Charles Stiles ( talk) 20:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
While on one hand I hate making yet another photo-related section here, I noticed a painting on a friend's social media post from North Korean defector artist Sun Mu of Kim Jong-un, which turned out to actually be from 2011. Before addressing the question of Sun Mu's copyright policy, I want to see whether this meets the criterion of not being derived from a copyright image. I don't believe there are any actual images of Jong-un with this kind of side-eye, and it's good enough to be an accurate illustration without blatantly copying a particular press photo. If someone could clarify this, we can then see if Sun Mu would be will license this image (perhaps without the red tint) under CC so we can use it in the article. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 03:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
The US is imposing an indefinite travel ban for all Americans visiting NK, requiring special permission to do so; currently this is in light of the Otto Warmbier issue, but one can read between the lines and see possible other reasons, ones that the EU may follow suit on. If it does become the case that a similar ban is enacted in the EU, I would definitely consider it now reasonably impossible that we could likely get a free image of Jong-un, as to allow a non-free. Yes, there are other countries besides the US and EU that can visit and get photos, but for all practical purposes, these are the two most likely sources that a free image would have come from.
However, this is only a suggestion, and if the EU or other states do nothing, then the current stance should still stand. -- MASEM ( t) 21:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Here's an idea for slightly improving the photo situation: why don't we just link to an external image instead of embedding an image? This is not unprecedented; it is done quite frequently using the {{ External media}} template. Here's the description from that template's documentation for when it should be used:
If an image, 3D model, audio or video clip:
- is currently available online,
- cannot be uploaded to Wikipedia, even under fair-use rules, and
- readers will expect this type of media in the article,
then it may be appropriate to use {{ external media}} to provide a direct link to the media file along with a description of the media.
This situation seems to perfectly meet all of those criteria. I admit I don't think I've ever seen this used for an article's primary infobox photo, but this is a very unique situation and I think an exception to the norm is warranted. My vote would be to this Washington Post article which includes a very hi-res supposedly-untouched portrait photo of Kim Jong-un released by KCNA (and an explanation about it). I would have preferred to link to the original AP story that the photo came from, but unfortunately, the version of that story on apnews.com is bizarrely missing the photo. There's a couple syndicated copies of the story floating around the web with the image, but most of them are much lower quality than the Washington Post version.
Please share your feedback:
Thanks, IagoQnsi ( talk) 16:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
So, so simple. The community has wasted how many hours on reads and keystrokes over this image matter? It has to be in the hundreds now.
If only this could be put to rest with a one-hour drawing by a decent artist. WMF's tight purse strings is in the way. I wish Wikipedia:Donated artwork could be revived where donations to the general coffers of WMF could instead be given directly to commission a tendered image of Kim Jong-un. Artists at DeviantArt are poor and good. We're talking about a hundred bucks here. Thoughts? It could kill two birds with on stone: get an image and solve this problem for other articles. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 00:11, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Please see here! That has to be easier than another 100 hrs. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 00:29, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Here it is, taken by some Russian tourist, however, it's too small. Should I try to contact this guy to get a permission? He's not a regular guest on the forum, by the way. Al-Douri ( talk) 18:09, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I think i found a free photograph
here
Searingjet (
talk) 03:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Should we really include universities that give "honorary" degrees as part of Alma mater in the biography infobox? By that logic we should put Harvard University in Steven Spielberg's infobox. If he never attended HELP University, I would suggest removing it from the infobox. NoMoreHeroes ( talk) 03:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
I never understood why his role as "Supreme Leader" is downplayed in the infobox to being a note under being "supreme commander of the army". I assume supreme leader is a more noteworthy and relevant title than commander of the army (which the corresponding role in America doesn't even show up in the POTUSes' infoboxes). Shouldn't that be changed? NoMoreHeroes ( talk) 22:19, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the listing of his alleged children from the Infobox due to the speculative nature of that information. If the information was of a factual nature, then it
might have encyclopedic value. This information is speculative, and it has no place in an encyclopedia other than,
perhaps, to state some source has speculated about it.
In place of a listing of his alleged children in the infobox, I have, instead, made a entry to reference the main article where details regarding his alleged children is given ("Speculative. See text for info."). Such entry is consistent with the article on Kim Jung-un's wife,
Ri Sol-ju, where two
other
editors have already stated information about his children is speculative ("Speculative. See text for info."). Please do not change the current entry without first seeking
consensus.
Mercy11 (
talk) 00:56, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
In the third paragraph of the article, it is stated that Kim may have been responsible for the assassination his brother Kim Jong-nam.
Through the rest of the article, Kim's brother is referred to as Kim Jong-chui. Since he only had one brother, which is correct? And if, for some reason, both are correct, then it needs to be explained.
-- Tickledpuppy ( talk) 14:07, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
First of all I know I have left a message about this before, and that there was a huge discussion and consensus months ago ^^, but can someone explain briefly why we don't have a real portrait of him? I just do not understand, especially how he's a popular figure lately and ofc to NK. Typhoon2013 (talk) 07:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
The article should mention Trump's nickname for Un. It's newsworthy (and funny). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.215.175 ( talk • contribs)
Doesn't Wikipedia have a WikiProject for North Korea ? We could ask its members if they reside in North Korea and request them to get a photo of Mr Kim by going to one of his rallies or launches or what you call it. How's my idea ? Also, on a completely different note, shouldn't this article be written in British English since English in Korea follows British grammar and spellings and according to WP:ENGVAR Mr Kim is of national importance to North Korea. 86.97.128.199 ( talk) 16:37, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@ AusLondoner: This is the same ip. By English in Korea, I meant English in NK. Obviously SK follows American English as it was under US while NK was under Soviet Union. And no. zero countries prefer American English is false. There are more British English speakers than American English. Most South African and South Asian countries prefer British English. 2.51.18.94 ( talk) 06:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC) @ AusLondonder: Broken ping.
@ AusLondonder: Your source talks nothing about North Korea, all it says is South Korea uses American English. Usage of American English may be rising, but we are looking at the variety of English used by the government of the country. Eg- India - Indian English (100% British English spelling) (But the study shows nearly half of the people uses American English. Nice one) The study also admits that Twitter is used by younger generation and books are written by an elite class. All this is offtopic, here, we are trying to determine the variety of English in North Korea (not South Korea), for which Jack Upland has given one source that British English spelling is used. You haven't given any till now. 2.51.18.94 ( talk) 12:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
The article currently says "[kim.dzʌŋ.ɯn]", but I can't find a "z" at all in Help:IPA/Korean. Maybe "dʑ" was intended instead? -- BjKa ( talk) 14:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Is it possible for an editor to simply create a sketch and submit it for use? Edaham ( talk) 22:35, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
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(Kim Jong Un is 130Kg) 45.122.240.81 ( talk) 03:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
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NOTE: Image A is currently up for deletion at Wikimedia Commons. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Please note that Option B as currently depicted is not the Option B voted on. It is far more realistic.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:51, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
Since we're on the topic, and this discussion subheading hasn't been used until now, does anyone have the direct KCNA link to the image found in this article? The KCNA link the article has doesn't point to the correct page. I posted about it when it came out last May, and assumed it was copyright KCNA although it doesn't have the standard KCNA lettering on the bottom right of the image that the others do on the kcna.kp site. If it is either not copyright or we could request permissions, it would be a perfect photo as it is a high quality and unretouched portrait of KJU. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 05:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Lmao you guys are being p-u-s-s-i-e-s. There are hundreds of high quality images of Kim Jong-Un released by the North Korean government and you're refusing to use them because "muh copyright." Like North Korea really cares about copyright. What, do you think Kim is going to nuke us if we use a photograph released by HIS government? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:ED02:A200:49F7:B238:7EFE:8033 ( talk) 01:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I found it online. Is it indeed a photograph of Kim Jong-Un, and if so does it meet the copyright requirements to be used on Wikimedia? Chessrat ( talk, contributions) 23:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
This survey has been going on for a month. Option A is now out of the picture. I don't see a consensus so far for Option B which has been the image for a while. Should we try Option E (nothing), which at least has two clear votes?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:58, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Option B would be the best since it is used in other wikipedia articles such as Leaders of North Korea -- Figfires ( talk) 03:25, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Furthermore, I have looked through the archives, back to 2013, and there seem to have been strong opinions against sketches (including by longstanding editors who support the "no fair use" line). There was a survey in July 2015 which included Option B, but it was inconclusive. I can't see a consensus for a sketch, and certainly not this one. I suggest unless and until a consensus forms, we have nothing.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:45, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Tonystewart14: I think it's quite obvious that not having any picture will result in endless edit wars of editors putting it back. We don't have to try that for months; it has happened a dozen times in just a matter of two weeks already.
I support putting the "photorealistic" sketch ( File:Kim Jong-Un Photorealistic-Sketch.jpg) back in. While there probably wasn't an exhaustive discussion that determined we should use that image, everyone seemed to be fine with that particular image for years. And that's consensus too. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to edit this. Blake0288 ( talk) 03:09, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
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Wouldn't the image depicting Kim Jong-un be more accurately referred to as a portrait rather than a sketch, which is defined on Wikipedia as "a rapidly executed freehand drawing that is not usually intended as a finished work" - 99.228.25.125 ( talk) 21:26, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Should the passport really have its own subsection?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
The page is protected so I can't fix this; can someone please add the missing comma in "Kim Jong-un is widely believed to have ordered the assassination of his half-brother, Kim Jong-nam in Malaysia in February 2017." It goes after "Kim Jong-nam," which is offset information. Thanks. 27.247.167.139 ( talk) 04:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
After the RfC in 2015, there was a consensus on a moratorium on these endless discussions about the image: see Talk:Kim_Jong-un/Archive_5#Foreign_Languages_Publishing_House and Talk:Kim_Jong-un/Archive_5#Proposal_on_image. It was proposed to avoid debating the topic unless something new came up and if newcomers made a comment on the issue to refer them to the FAQ in the first instance, rather than reigniting this tired debate. I think this worked fairly well. Though the image issue did resurface, through 2016 and early 2017 we had productive discussions about other topics. However, since April 2017 this talk page has been absolutely dominated by the issue. We had a survey that ran all year, which achieved nothing. In the end the photorealistic sketch was restored (now in an enhanced version), even though there was no consensus in favour of it. This is a waste of time and effort, and crowds out other issues. I'm not suggesting a complete ban on the topic, but I think it would be good if those of us who are page watchers avoided getting into long discussions on the issue, unless something new comes up.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Under Personality, we say:
We discussed this back in 2015, and the consensus was to remove this (which then had its own section). I think the problems remain. It's a salacious rumour, with no substantiation, and the media openly admit that.
We also say:
The source says: 'According to diplomatic sources, the North recently imported sauna equipment from Finland and Germany. "Kim Jong-un likes to drink and party all night like his father and ordered the equipment to help him beat hangovers and fatigue," a source said. "Imports of wine and other spirits have increased since Kim Jong-il was in power."' So really diplomatic sources say that the North imported sauna equipment. It's "a source" that says it's for Kim 's personal use. But how would this source possibly know his personal habits??? Then the increase in alcohol imports. Really, is Kim Jong Un drinking that much that it affects the balance of trade??? In the end, the use of a sauna is pretty trivial. What was Churchill's hangover cure? How did Reagan recover from cocaine? The only take-out message from this is that Kim's a heavy drinker. I think other sources have suggested this, so maybe we should simplify this.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:38, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
References
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This section says, "In December 2015, in a release from the official Korean Central News Agency, Kim announced that his country had developed a hydrogen bomb. Kim's claim is considered unlikely." This might have been true back then, but the 2017 North Korean nuclear test gave a lot of weight to the claim. [13] The passage seems out-of-date and misleading. I will remove it.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
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Bignibba2.0 ( talk) 04:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC) i wish to change his DOB
A photograph of Mike Pompeo was released today showing him shaking hands with Kim. If someone could get a fair use version, I think it warrants inclusion in the article. Sovietmessiah ( talk) 22:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
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86.131.67.102 ( talk) 11:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)Kim jong un has stoped missiles
I don't think the main picture in article (Kim Jong-un at the Workers' Party of Korea main building.png) is impartial. Because the background looks like an atomic explosion. -- AlmaBeta ( talk) 00:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
After years of effort and nearly endless debate, a free license image of Kim Jong-un is now available. The image now on the article is a crop of File:Kim Jong-un meeting with South Korean envoys at the Workers' Party of Korea main building.jpg, which is confirmed to be available on the source page from which it came, and licensed under the Korea Open Government License, Category 1. I've removed the {{ Image requested}} and FAQ from the header, marking the latter as historical as it is linked from two different archives of this talk page. This, at long last, ends the many debates that have happened on this talk page regarding the image, and does so in favor of free content. Many, many thanks to @ Cyberdoomslayer: for finding this image and uploading it to Commons. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 15:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Fantastic! It's not the greatest of photos for the purposes of a lead image, but after the long wait, it will certainly do in a pinch! I think I've said this in the past, but I'll repeat that I think the regulars here should be proud of the manner in which discussion on this issue stayed as civil as it did over such a long period of debate, despite strong editorial opinions on all sides. I'm glad the issue is finally resolved satisfactorily. Snow let's rap 04:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Kim visited mainland China to meet with Xi Jinping. If I read Commons:Template:PD-PRC-exempt, works by the media in the PRC are in the public domain, so there might be a possibility for more free images, but I am not 100% sure. -- Masem ( t) 03:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Those following this might be interested in Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-04-26/News and notes, where the first article there is about the free license image being found. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it might be worthwhile to summarise what we have learned, what the consensus is, coming out of this long discussion, perhaps on the North Korea project page. This issue might reoccur in relation to other North Koreans. For example:
This article in the foreign trips section has a *see also* header that leads to a nonexistent article, List of foreign trips made by Kim Jong-un. It's an article that can be made, but we don't have one for Kim Jong-il or Kim Il-sung. Would it still be a good idea to go ahead and create? -- Jeremy Ahn ( talk | contribs) 10:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Last year a discussion said we should avoid using "dictator" to describe Jong-un unless RSes used the term (It can be a BLP violation if we're doing that in WP voice without the backup). Doing a quick google news check now shows a lot of sources more recently using this term. Given that, I have no specific opinion which way it should fall ("leader" or "dictator") but believe that discussion should be reviewed in light of new sources to determine if "dictator" can be used. -- Masem ( t) 17:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
The Sydney Morning Herald and other news outlets worldwide are reporting that Kim Jong Un "Got on hands and knees and begged" for Summit, citing Giuliani ( https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/kim-jong-un-got-on-hands-and-knees-and-begged-for-summit-giuliani-20180607-p4zjxi.html). Should this be included? Because this makes it seem like the "Supreme Leader" of North Korea is subservient to a negotiator for the USA 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:A07E:C417:53D:B5C0 ( talk) 13:09, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Why is the name romanized in a way that seems to go counter to Revised Romanization? ㅡ is eu in RR. In the older system, used by North Korea, it is ŭ . Neither one normally transcribes it as u. 87.247.51.148 ( talk) 17:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I don't think this article should say that Kim Jong Nam was assassinated until there is more confirmation. There are conflicting reports, as indicated by these sources: [1], [2], [3].-- Jack Upland ( talk) 03:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I've noticed this page always uses a sketch instead of a real picture of him. Why is that so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.212.82.137 ( talk) 15:07, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Since we're on this topic again, is there a possibility we could leave the sketch as the image that's displayed, but in the caption add something like "For a photograph of Kim Jong-un, see this image."? That would be a good compromise as it would link to a real image of KJU while respecting Wikipedia rules on non-free content. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 04:17, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Honestly, I find it a little hard to believe there are absolutely NO free real photos of Kim Jong Un on the internet...
Surely there is a fair use justification for using a widely-published photo rather than a (free) propaganda image? 86.139.252.166 ( talk) 12:24, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Based on his father's nationality that he was Russian and Soviet (more likely half- Koryo-saram), can we presumably consider Kim Jong-il's children half-Russian including him as well? We noticed Kim Jong-un has his father's Russian heritage. 24.212.149.50 ( talk) 01:45, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
The sections "Early life and education" and "Family" need realignining. They were present the information 'independently' of each other (in both cases as if this is the first time the information is presented in the article; and the information does not entirely coincide.
Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 16:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
By dictionary definition Kim Jong-un is a dictator, yet the word doesn't appear anywhere on this page except in reference URLs. Just "Chairman". This is illogical. Is NK keeping Wiki "clean"?
Merriam-Webster Dictionary - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator a: a person granted absolute emergency power; b: one holding complete autocratic control: a person with unlimited governmental power. c: one ruling in an absolute (see absolute 2) and often oppressive way fascist dictators.
Cambridge Dictionary - http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dictator a leader who has complete power in a country and has not been elected by the people. a person who gives orders and behaves as if they have complete power
Oxford Dictionary - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dictator "A ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force."
etc etc, of course I could go on.
Yes...NOT "supreme Leader", but dictator. Please get it right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:982:4201:3CE0:29EC:5AE2:7D66:9156 ( talk) 22:40, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
We don't use dictionary definitions to determine the terminology we use in a Wikipedia article. We use reliable, published sources specifically about our subject. If you can provide a reliable source that uses the term to refer to Kim Jong-un, than so can we. Otherwise, no. General Ization Talk 23:35, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Since photography is a crime in North Korea, we may not get a better picture. So the thing on the top has a very low chance of achieving. Gary "Roach" Sanderson ( talk) 19:13, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I just uploaded the pic at right.[[:File:Kim-jong un With Shoe.jpg|thumb|"Just uploaded this... but I just ain't gettin' no answer!"]] Anythingyouwant ( talk) 15:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
FYI, this image is nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons. [6] Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:32, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
I sent an abuse report to Flickr using their online form:
I'm reporting abuse on the following page:https://www.flickr.com/photos/147463525@N04/29883338246/
It was apparently published in a 2014 newspaper article, with a credit to "Korean Central News Agency/Reuters", so I don't see how it could be public domain, or how it could have been created in 2016.
Here's a link to the newspaper article:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kim-jong-un-looks-things-redux-1461494
On the other hand, the U.S. is still technically in a state of war with North Korea, so maybe we don't respect their government's copyright?
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's identify them and systematically write to them to get a photo. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 10:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Cheers. davidguttenfelder.com is blocked where I am, but I found Pan's email and will write to him.
There were tons of foreign reporters invited for the parade and unveiling of that new housing project. We're they allowed cameras? I forget. If so, surely, one of them can release a medium or high res pic of the man. It doesn't have to be a portrait he sat for. Just one from 50 m away with a good camera. That would give is decent cropped pic. You give me names and I'll do the emailing. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 21:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
I emailed those two people a couple of weeks ago. No reply. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 20:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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If we knew that no free equivalent would become available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose for the next decade, would we then consider a non-free image today? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 20:48, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
We should be careful about our use of the words "image" and "photo". The first word is broader than the second. A talented portrait artist working in a hyper-realistic style could create an original image, or painting, of Kim Jong-un based on study of many photos rather than copying one photo. If that artist donated the image under an acceptable Creative Commons license, then this problem would be solved. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
It is agreed that not having obtained a free image for a long time and/or not expecting to obtain a free image for a long time, is not a reason to allow a non-free image of a living person. An exception is if the person is deliberately avoiding, or has no access to, the public. Is this right?
I posted the conclusion in case others in the future ask what I did and want a quick answer without a lot of reading. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:20, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
On Masem's point, one article that comes to mind is this one, where the article actually talks about the image itself. It's also a high-res portrait with no retouching, and is by far the best KJU photo that exists, so this would be the ideal route if it's acceptable under NFCC.
There was a comment earlier about a BBC article using a photo that was credited directly to the photographer, Ed Jones, although he works for AFP. I messaged him on Twitter and will update if I get a response (edit) I actually got a response in ten minutes, and was given an AFP email. This will likely not result in a free license, although I could give it a shot or message the email address to another user here.
Tonystewart14 (
talk) 04:18, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have edited the page four times, the reson is because im on a mobile device and because I don't want to risk vandalism, I edited it in four parts. Cheers! Gary "Roach" Sanderson ( talk) 02:04, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
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There does not appear to be a picture of Kim Jong-Un in his personal details section. I feel adding a picture would help complete this wikipedia page. Charles Stiles ( talk) 20:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
While on one hand I hate making yet another photo-related section here, I noticed a painting on a friend's social media post from North Korean defector artist Sun Mu of Kim Jong-un, which turned out to actually be from 2011. Before addressing the question of Sun Mu's copyright policy, I want to see whether this meets the criterion of not being derived from a copyright image. I don't believe there are any actual images of Jong-un with this kind of side-eye, and it's good enough to be an accurate illustration without blatantly copying a particular press photo. If someone could clarify this, we can then see if Sun Mu would be will license this image (perhaps without the red tint) under CC so we can use it in the article. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 03:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
The US is imposing an indefinite travel ban for all Americans visiting NK, requiring special permission to do so; currently this is in light of the Otto Warmbier issue, but one can read between the lines and see possible other reasons, ones that the EU may follow suit on. If it does become the case that a similar ban is enacted in the EU, I would definitely consider it now reasonably impossible that we could likely get a free image of Jong-un, as to allow a non-free. Yes, there are other countries besides the US and EU that can visit and get photos, but for all practical purposes, these are the two most likely sources that a free image would have come from.
However, this is only a suggestion, and if the EU or other states do nothing, then the current stance should still stand. -- MASEM ( t) 21:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Here's an idea for slightly improving the photo situation: why don't we just link to an external image instead of embedding an image? This is not unprecedented; it is done quite frequently using the {{ External media}} template. Here's the description from that template's documentation for when it should be used:
If an image, 3D model, audio or video clip:
- is currently available online,
- cannot be uploaded to Wikipedia, even under fair-use rules, and
- readers will expect this type of media in the article,
then it may be appropriate to use {{ external media}} to provide a direct link to the media file along with a description of the media.
This situation seems to perfectly meet all of those criteria. I admit I don't think I've ever seen this used for an article's primary infobox photo, but this is a very unique situation and I think an exception to the norm is warranted. My vote would be to this Washington Post article which includes a very hi-res supposedly-untouched portrait photo of Kim Jong-un released by KCNA (and an explanation about it). I would have preferred to link to the original AP story that the photo came from, but unfortunately, the version of that story on apnews.com is bizarrely missing the photo. There's a couple syndicated copies of the story floating around the web with the image, but most of them are much lower quality than the Washington Post version.
Please share your feedback:
Thanks, IagoQnsi ( talk) 16:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
So, so simple. The community has wasted how many hours on reads and keystrokes over this image matter? It has to be in the hundreds now.
If only this could be put to rest with a one-hour drawing by a decent artist. WMF's tight purse strings is in the way. I wish Wikipedia:Donated artwork could be revived where donations to the general coffers of WMF could instead be given directly to commission a tendered image of Kim Jong-un. Artists at DeviantArt are poor and good. We're talking about a hundred bucks here. Thoughts? It could kill two birds with on stone: get an image and solve this problem for other articles. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 00:11, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Please see here! That has to be easier than another 100 hrs. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 00:29, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Here it is, taken by some Russian tourist, however, it's too small. Should I try to contact this guy to get a permission? He's not a regular guest on the forum, by the way. Al-Douri ( talk) 18:09, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I think i found a free photograph
here
Searingjet (
talk) 03:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Should we really include universities that give "honorary" degrees as part of Alma mater in the biography infobox? By that logic we should put Harvard University in Steven Spielberg's infobox. If he never attended HELP University, I would suggest removing it from the infobox. NoMoreHeroes ( talk) 03:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
I never understood why his role as "Supreme Leader" is downplayed in the infobox to being a note under being "supreme commander of the army". I assume supreme leader is a more noteworthy and relevant title than commander of the army (which the corresponding role in America doesn't even show up in the POTUSes' infoboxes). Shouldn't that be changed? NoMoreHeroes ( talk) 22:19, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the listing of his alleged children from the Infobox due to the speculative nature of that information. If the information was of a factual nature, then it
might have encyclopedic value. This information is speculative, and it has no place in an encyclopedia other than,
perhaps, to state some source has speculated about it.
In place of a listing of his alleged children in the infobox, I have, instead, made a entry to reference the main article where details regarding his alleged children is given ("Speculative. See text for info."). Such entry is consistent with the article on Kim Jung-un's wife,
Ri Sol-ju, where two
other
editors have already stated information about his children is speculative ("Speculative. See text for info."). Please do not change the current entry without first seeking
consensus.
Mercy11 (
talk) 00:56, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
In the third paragraph of the article, it is stated that Kim may have been responsible for the assassination his brother Kim Jong-nam.
Through the rest of the article, Kim's brother is referred to as Kim Jong-chui. Since he only had one brother, which is correct? And if, for some reason, both are correct, then it needs to be explained.
-- Tickledpuppy ( talk) 14:07, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
First of all I know I have left a message about this before, and that there was a huge discussion and consensus months ago ^^, but can someone explain briefly why we don't have a real portrait of him? I just do not understand, especially how he's a popular figure lately and ofc to NK. Typhoon2013 (talk) 07:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
The article should mention Trump's nickname for Un. It's newsworthy (and funny). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.215.175 ( talk • contribs)
Doesn't Wikipedia have a WikiProject for North Korea ? We could ask its members if they reside in North Korea and request them to get a photo of Mr Kim by going to one of his rallies or launches or what you call it. How's my idea ? Also, on a completely different note, shouldn't this article be written in British English since English in Korea follows British grammar and spellings and according to WP:ENGVAR Mr Kim is of national importance to North Korea. 86.97.128.199 ( talk) 16:37, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@ AusLondoner: This is the same ip. By English in Korea, I meant English in NK. Obviously SK follows American English as it was under US while NK was under Soviet Union. And no. zero countries prefer American English is false. There are more British English speakers than American English. Most South African and South Asian countries prefer British English. 2.51.18.94 ( talk) 06:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC) @ AusLondonder: Broken ping.
@ AusLondonder: Your source talks nothing about North Korea, all it says is South Korea uses American English. Usage of American English may be rising, but we are looking at the variety of English used by the government of the country. Eg- India - Indian English (100% British English spelling) (But the study shows nearly half of the people uses American English. Nice one) The study also admits that Twitter is used by younger generation and books are written by an elite class. All this is offtopic, here, we are trying to determine the variety of English in North Korea (not South Korea), for which Jack Upland has given one source that British English spelling is used. You haven't given any till now. 2.51.18.94 ( talk) 12:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
The article currently says "[kim.dzʌŋ.ɯn]", but I can't find a "z" at all in Help:IPA/Korean. Maybe "dʑ" was intended instead? -- BjKa ( talk) 14:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Is it possible for an editor to simply create a sketch and submit it for use? Edaham ( talk) 22:35, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
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(Kim Jong Un is 130Kg) 45.122.240.81 ( talk) 03:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
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NOTE: Image A is currently up for deletion at Wikimedia Commons. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Please note that Option B as currently depicted is not the Option B voted on. It is far more realistic.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:51, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
Since we're on the topic, and this discussion subheading hasn't been used until now, does anyone have the direct KCNA link to the image found in this article? The KCNA link the article has doesn't point to the correct page. I posted about it when it came out last May, and assumed it was copyright KCNA although it doesn't have the standard KCNA lettering on the bottom right of the image that the others do on the kcna.kp site. If it is either not copyright or we could request permissions, it would be a perfect photo as it is a high quality and unretouched portrait of KJU. Tonystewart14 ( talk) 05:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Lmao you guys are being p-u-s-s-i-e-s. There are hundreds of high quality images of Kim Jong-Un released by the North Korean government and you're refusing to use them because "muh copyright." Like North Korea really cares about copyright. What, do you think Kim is going to nuke us if we use a photograph released by HIS government? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:ED02:A200:49F7:B238:7EFE:8033 ( talk) 01:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I found it online. Is it indeed a photograph of Kim Jong-Un, and if so does it meet the copyright requirements to be used on Wikimedia? Chessrat ( talk, contributions) 23:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
This survey has been going on for a month. Option A is now out of the picture. I don't see a consensus so far for Option B which has been the image for a while. Should we try Option E (nothing), which at least has two clear votes?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:58, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Option B would be the best since it is used in other wikipedia articles such as Leaders of North Korea -- Figfires ( talk) 03:25, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Furthermore, I have looked through the archives, back to 2013, and there seem to have been strong opinions against sketches (including by longstanding editors who support the "no fair use" line). There was a survey in July 2015 which included Option B, but it was inconclusive. I can't see a consensus for a sketch, and certainly not this one. I suggest unless and until a consensus forms, we have nothing.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:45, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Tonystewart14: I think it's quite obvious that not having any picture will result in endless edit wars of editors putting it back. We don't have to try that for months; it has happened a dozen times in just a matter of two weeks already.
I support putting the "photorealistic" sketch ( File:Kim Jong-Un Photorealistic-Sketch.jpg) back in. While there probably wasn't an exhaustive discussion that determined we should use that image, everyone seemed to be fine with that particular image for years. And that's consensus too. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to edit this. Blake0288 ( talk) 03:09, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
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Wouldn't the image depicting Kim Jong-un be more accurately referred to as a portrait rather than a sketch, which is defined on Wikipedia as "a rapidly executed freehand drawing that is not usually intended as a finished work" - 99.228.25.125 ( talk) 21:26, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Should the passport really have its own subsection?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
The page is protected so I can't fix this; can someone please add the missing comma in "Kim Jong-un is widely believed to have ordered the assassination of his half-brother, Kim Jong-nam in Malaysia in February 2017." It goes after "Kim Jong-nam," which is offset information. Thanks. 27.247.167.139 ( talk) 04:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
After the RfC in 2015, there was a consensus on a moratorium on these endless discussions about the image: see Talk:Kim_Jong-un/Archive_5#Foreign_Languages_Publishing_House and Talk:Kim_Jong-un/Archive_5#Proposal_on_image. It was proposed to avoid debating the topic unless something new came up and if newcomers made a comment on the issue to refer them to the FAQ in the first instance, rather than reigniting this tired debate. I think this worked fairly well. Though the image issue did resurface, through 2016 and early 2017 we had productive discussions about other topics. However, since April 2017 this talk page has been absolutely dominated by the issue. We had a survey that ran all year, which achieved nothing. In the end the photorealistic sketch was restored (now in an enhanced version), even though there was no consensus in favour of it. This is a waste of time and effort, and crowds out other issues. I'm not suggesting a complete ban on the topic, but I think it would be good if those of us who are page watchers avoided getting into long discussions on the issue, unless something new comes up.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Under Personality, we say:
We discussed this back in 2015, and the consensus was to remove this (which then had its own section). I think the problems remain. It's a salacious rumour, with no substantiation, and the media openly admit that.
We also say:
The source says: 'According to diplomatic sources, the North recently imported sauna equipment from Finland and Germany. "Kim Jong-un likes to drink and party all night like his father and ordered the equipment to help him beat hangovers and fatigue," a source said. "Imports of wine and other spirits have increased since Kim Jong-il was in power."' So really diplomatic sources say that the North imported sauna equipment. It's "a source" that says it's for Kim 's personal use. But how would this source possibly know his personal habits??? Then the increase in alcohol imports. Really, is Kim Jong Un drinking that much that it affects the balance of trade??? In the end, the use of a sauna is pretty trivial. What was Churchill's hangover cure? How did Reagan recover from cocaine? The only take-out message from this is that Kim's a heavy drinker. I think other sources have suggested this, so maybe we should simplify this.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:38, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
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ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
This section says, "In December 2015, in a release from the official Korean Central News Agency, Kim announced that his country had developed a hydrogen bomb. Kim's claim is considered unlikely." This might have been true back then, but the 2017 North Korean nuclear test gave a lot of weight to the claim. [13] The passage seems out-of-date and misleading. I will remove it.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
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Bignibba2.0 ( talk) 04:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC) i wish to change his DOB
A photograph of Mike Pompeo was released today showing him shaking hands with Kim. If someone could get a fair use version, I think it warrants inclusion in the article. Sovietmessiah ( talk) 22:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
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86.131.67.102 ( talk) 11:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)Kim jong un has stoped missiles
I don't think the main picture in article (Kim Jong-un at the Workers' Party of Korea main building.png) is impartial. Because the background looks like an atomic explosion. -- AlmaBeta ( talk) 00:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
After years of effort and nearly endless debate, a free license image of Kim Jong-un is now available. The image now on the article is a crop of File:Kim Jong-un meeting with South Korean envoys at the Workers' Party of Korea main building.jpg, which is confirmed to be available on the source page from which it came, and licensed under the Korea Open Government License, Category 1. I've removed the {{ Image requested}} and FAQ from the header, marking the latter as historical as it is linked from two different archives of this talk page. This, at long last, ends the many debates that have happened on this talk page regarding the image, and does so in favor of free content. Many, many thanks to @ Cyberdoomslayer: for finding this image and uploading it to Commons. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 15:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Fantastic! It's not the greatest of photos for the purposes of a lead image, but after the long wait, it will certainly do in a pinch! I think I've said this in the past, but I'll repeat that I think the regulars here should be proud of the manner in which discussion on this issue stayed as civil as it did over such a long period of debate, despite strong editorial opinions on all sides. I'm glad the issue is finally resolved satisfactorily. Snow let's rap 04:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Kim visited mainland China to meet with Xi Jinping. If I read Commons:Template:PD-PRC-exempt, works by the media in the PRC are in the public domain, so there might be a possibility for more free images, but I am not 100% sure. -- Masem ( t) 03:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Those following this might be interested in Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-04-26/News and notes, where the first article there is about the free license image being found. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it might be worthwhile to summarise what we have learned, what the consensus is, coming out of this long discussion, perhaps on the North Korea project page. This issue might reoccur in relation to other North Koreans. For example:
This article in the foreign trips section has a *see also* header that leads to a nonexistent article, List of foreign trips made by Kim Jong-un. It's an article that can be made, but we don't have one for Kim Jong-il or Kim Il-sung. Would it still be a good idea to go ahead and create? -- Jeremy Ahn ( talk | contribs) 10:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Last year a discussion said we should avoid using "dictator" to describe Jong-un unless RSes used the term (It can be a BLP violation if we're doing that in WP voice without the backup). Doing a quick google news check now shows a lot of sources more recently using this term. Given that, I have no specific opinion which way it should fall ("leader" or "dictator") but believe that discussion should be reviewed in light of new sources to determine if "dictator" can be used. -- Masem ( t) 17:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
The Sydney Morning Herald and other news outlets worldwide are reporting that Kim Jong Un "Got on hands and knees and begged" for Summit, citing Giuliani ( https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/kim-jong-un-got-on-hands-and-knees-and-begged-for-summit-giuliani-20180607-p4zjxi.html). Should this be included? Because this makes it seem like the "Supreme Leader" of North Korea is subservient to a negotiator for the USA 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:A07E:C417:53D:B5C0 ( talk) 13:09, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Why is the name romanized in a way that seems to go counter to Revised Romanization? ㅡ is eu in RR. In the older system, used by North Korea, it is ŭ . Neither one normally transcribes it as u. 87.247.51.148 ( talk) 17:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)