![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 22, 2010, March 22, 2013, and March 22, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Khatyn massacre be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Belarus may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
To Ben-Vevel, the similarity of the names, fairly and logically would be sufficient reason to want to clarify the difference betweent the two events. Hard to understand why this clarification would be a problem to anyone. Before I readd this small but important detail to the Khatyn article, and a similar addition to the Katyn article, I am willing to discuss it further. Perhaps if you can show me where Katyn has been unnecessarily added to other articles of this nature, I would agree with your position, that there has been some kind of over kill on the subject. Dr. Dan 16:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have asked Ben-Vevel a question here and on our respective talk pages in a civil and a "just wanting to know attitude". Unfortunately, he has not yet responded. So I'll ask him again, and anyone else for that matter, what the objection could possibly be, to not want to distinguish between two similarly named horrible events. Why someone would object to clarifying some confusion between two similarly named events that took place in relatively the same time period, and relatively the same geographical location, is somewhat mystifying. It honestly deserves some introspection, less it be interpreted as some weird agenda, that is deliberately trying to deprive unknowing persons of the truth regarding both events. Dr. Dan 01:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Now, it's specified in this article, but not thanks to you. What confused me was your removal of the information that didn't appeal to you without readding anything to clarify the matter. In any case it, seems to be settled fairly now. Dr. Dan 02:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The quoted book says something different than written in the article. Either correct or remove the link. Xx236 14:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
After having a look at who writes or wrote there:
http://www.ihr.org/other/authorbios.html
I have decided to delete that link. Not because it claims that the site was chosen for the similarity of the name (only in English) but because it claims that it never happened. Small surprise that guys writing there would do so? User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 17:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
To Piotrus - it seems this article did not say that the Balts participated in *this* massacre, but rather that they participated in other similar events in Belarus. However, the way the article is currently written is wrong:some of the things does not belong here, a separate article should be written about the German operations in general, and this should be left about this particular massacre. Village burning as a revenge for actions of the Soviet partisans was common not only in Belarus, but in other occupied territories as well, therefore, perhaps it would be the best to add it to the existing Soviet Partisans article? However, the information as it is written now is factually inaccurate (the batallion name numbers are not accurate frommy knowledge of the events (even the number of batallions that participated itself is not clear, as it says 10 but 11 are listed) other inaccuracies also exist, such as downplaying (not mentioning) the actions of Belarusian collaborators who also participated in these events). And, as well, that text is a possible copyright violation, as it is largely copied and pasted from the official website of Khatyn massacre, link to which is given at the bottom (just few words are changed, example: the word "fascist" is changed to "nazi"). Therefore, I am removing that misplaced, inaccurate and possible copyvio section. If I'll find out more about these German operations (revenge for Soviet partisan actions), I might write an separate article about them myself. Kaiser 747 09:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for interfering in your and Kaiser's dialogue, but I would just like to note, that I have explained some related things in your talk page rather than here, as it has soemthing to do with general Wikipedia policies rather than particular articles. I hope that will help. As for NKVD by the way, I am not sure if Katyn should or should not be mentioned here (the reason why it could is a similar sounding name which might mislead some users into believing that this is the same event), but, in general, of course, I would like to note that the fact that many massacres were perpetrated not by NKVD does not means that NKVD massacres should not be mentioned at all - Wikipedia is big enough, all the more imprtant events will find their place here. Burann 11:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The outcome of the genocide policy was that 2 230 000 people were killed in Belarus within the three years of German occupation. Every fourth Belarusian died during the WWII.
1. It's "Khatyn massacre", not Belarus in the WWII. 2. The number is doubful. What is your non-Soviet source? Xx236 14:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
In order for this discussion to be more visible I have moved it here at one place. No one have yet provided any counter-arguements. Kaiser 747 09:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
At Talk:Lviv User:Irpen has suggested to move this article to Khatyn incident and asked me to propose such a move as a sign of good will. While I'm certainly not sure it's a good idea, I'd like to hear what the others think. // Halibu tt 09:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Here we go again about the usage of strong terms in Wikipedia. Let me explain for a umpteenth time my take on this. First, strong terms in titles should be avoided at all cost. This article's new name should reflect this common sense rule.
Another issue is whether we are allowed to use strong words in Wikipedia or we are not allowed to use them at all, even in the text. Strong words are not only "massacre" (as opposed to incident), but also "liberated" , "occupied", "murdered" as well as nouns, like "Genocide" (as opposed to "numerous deaths"), "uprising" (as opposed to "mutiny"), "revolution" (as opposed to coup d'etat), etc. If all these words are banned, we should only use "killed", "died", "taken", etc. This, however, is not the case. No encyclopedia, book, writer, no matter how NPOV can be required to stick to PC language and no one does that, including the very respectable Britannica and Columbia which also have NPOV policy.
The issue is different. If the majority of scholars see something as NPOV and acceptable usage, we can use this here as well. That the Holocaust was Genocide, that creationism is unscientific (still doesn't make it wrong), October was revolution, Pinochet was coup, Bounty was "mutiny", 1939 was Soviet-German Occupation of Poland, and 1943-45 was liberation of Europe are the terms the scholars agree on to use. I don't object to the usage of the strong words in the article texts, provided that they are backed up by similarly wide usage in the majority of the literature. I will not support the expunging of the word massacre from the article's text. But titles, are the different story. Katyn incident, Battle of the Lower Dnieper (rather than Liberation of Ukraine), Khotin uprising (rather than Khotin Massacre) and its "mirror", so to speak, Fântâna Albă incident rather than Fântâna Albă massacre, etc. -- Irpen 17:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This above was written under my false impression that we are talking about Katyn massacre -> Katyn incident move. My typo caused the confusion. I still support ridding "massacre" from all article titles. This one should be just Khatyn (since there is no village, a shorter title is preferred). The other article has to go to Katyn incident. In Katyn as well as in this article we can keep massacre in the text, but rid the titles from such. How about that? -- Irpen 18:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I was going to bed but this one caught my eye. If it looks like a massacre and smells like a massacre, it probably is a massacre. What can any honest person call the murder of these POWS, besides a massacre (or worse)? Some of these officers, were "kids", who did not deserve such deaths (nor did the older ones, either). It's a historical event that makes me sick, whenever I'm reminded of it, and there cannot be any rationale or excuse for it. And after reading about the Khotin massacre, for the first time, it should be so renamed, IMHO. Dr. Dan 04:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. Goodnght, and this time I mean it!
If Katyn incident then Auschwitz falanster, Zyklon B inhalations against asthma and Gulag travels for Stakhanovites.
Incident says "An incident is a series of events that involves an attack or series of attacks (compromise and/or breach of security) at one or more sites. Who did attack someone in Katyń? Xx236 13:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't see consensus for the move, so page not moved. Eugène van der Pijll 21:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform, e.g. where is the Khatyn situated. Xx236 13:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It still doesn't. Xx236 08:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Khatyn has been selected as the symbol from tens or hundreds equal places because of its English name. Such information should be in this article. The best tactics is to accuse others of POV and to promote his own POV.
This article is about Nazi pacifications in Belarus, not only about Khatyn massacre. Some edits or new article are needed. Xx236 08:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
And I request limiting of the NKVD/KGB propaganda. Xx236 11:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC) [1] A Thesis Presented to the Department of History Western Illinois University Xx236 11:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Polish language text: http://tygodnik.onet.pl/1560,1180210,dzial.html
There is also allegedly a capsule in Europe by Davies. Xx236 14:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I think Davies ref is enough to show it's not a fringe theory. For the record, I have 404 accessing Fischer's article, but pdf link works - but I think its the entire CSI part of CIA section that just has a short downtime. Anyway, Studies in Intelligence seems relativly reliable, although one should of course keep in mind possible bias originating from CIA pro-American stance. That stance, however, should not be significant when dealing with history of Soviet Union (see also [3], [4] and [5] for blurbs about that journal).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record: we have this page crowded by a group of "truth-seekers" from the Polish noticeboard within several hours after intense and incivil canvassing on that page by Xx236. [6] Once again, I urge the administrators to delete the canvas-board, where they belittle "a small nuumber of Auschwitz prizoners" as compared to the great and overpowering tragedy of Katyn. Until that is done, I won't stoop to continuing the discussion. -- Ghirla -трёп- 19:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Writing about Soviet crimes isn't Russia-bashing:
Xx236 10:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Auschwitz concentration camp informs:
Xx236 06:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
For all the handwringing about the sentence regarding the reasons for the focus on Khatyn, nobody has pointed to any other explanation why this village was chosen from among the many others in the region whose residents were slaughtered by Nazi troops. In the absence of such other explanations, and with a number of significant scholars supporting the Katyn-divergence thesis (which also makes sense in the context of Cold War politics), I think this sentence or something like it belongs in this article. Indeed, removal of it makes it much more difficult to understand the history of memorialization at Khatyn. BenA ( talk) 11:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
When I looked at this article today, the sentence on Katyn and Khatyn had been edited to say that Khatyn was chosen to divert attention from the "Nazi crime" at Katyn. This not only falsely attributed Katyn (as opposed to Khatyn) to the Nazis, but it also makes no sense whatsoever on its face. Were Katyn in fact a Nazi crime, the Soviets would have had no interest in diverting attention from it. But Katyn was a Soviet crime, and the focus on the Nazi crime at Khatyn was related to Soviet attempts to divert attention from Katyn. BenA ( talk) 11:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I strongly believe that the number of over 2 milion killed in Belorussia is confusing. First of all it includes Belorussia 1938, annexed territories in Poland within 1945 borders and Bialystok area. It also includes Jews (if we take 10% as avarage Jewish population this will gives us 800 000 people, but there were areas with 15% of Jews and most of small towns were entirely Jewish), all population killed by Soviets(few hundred thousands), conscripted KIA, vllages burnt by partisans. The numbers invented by Soviet propaganda usually were few times enlarged to make more impression (see 4 milion of victims of Auschwitz versus 1.2 milion reality). Can we give it here with question mark rather then reality? Cautious 09:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a post-Soviet statistic. Please give references for your figure of Soviet civilians supposedly killed by Soviet troops. Feketekave ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Most of civilians murdered by Nazis in what is today's Belarussia were Jews. This biased, skewed article doesn't mention Jewish victims in its general statistics. - Yohananw ( talk) 00:07, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
The article is unclear on whether the village exists or not. If it doesn't, and it has been turned into a memorial (as pl wiki suggests), this should be clarified. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV violation tag to the article. Pages about massacres, mass killings, etc. are not meant to be a collection of however many frivolous insults and arbitrary political labels can be hurled at the perpatrators in a single, massive text wall. This article requires serious work to be brought up to NPOV standards. -- NEMT ( talk) 04:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place for political propaganda!! Also not for russian contributors who would like to cover the fact that Soviet russians killed up to 22 000 polish people in Kathyn/Katyn in 1940. This article is clearly some work from Kreml-friendly/Putin-friendly persons, maybe even written by Kreml own propaganda staff (the few ones who can english). It's easy to see on the level of details, and the way they want to lead the reader to think. Please clarify that there have been two massacres, do not forget that Soviet atrocities under Stalin was on the level with Nazi-Germany, Stalin was even worse than Hitler if you do a body count. This is not a place for propaganda!! Jarao 22.26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
dude, you're talking about no propaganda, and you just totally put in your own judgmental point of view there. Stalin was much worse than Hitler?? Please. Do you have a proper documented source that clearly states that Stalin was worse than Hitler? Hitler committed/started the Genocide. Stalin did not. And just so you know, my mom is half German so I'm obviously not trying to be anti-German. You seem to have something against Russians? And what's up with the "few that can (speak) english" comment? Another dig at the Russians? lol and yes I just realized you wrote that 2 years ago but it still stands. Lenachka25 ( talk) 07:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
isn't it a bit... extreme to say the article violates npov, just because in its style it condemnes the massacre? -- Gerrit C U T E D H 12:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
After reading through the article I decided to clean it up. As someone here already mentioned it: it's a bad piece of propaganda scribble. I'm disturbed that something like this could survive at wikipedia for so long. I'm a journalist who regularly uses it, so I'm just the more shocked that the otherwise high quality standards of wikipedia that I regularly defend in my profession had been undermined that severely.
Here's what I did: I only stuck to the part of the article which states no sources. I removed most of the opinionated, colorful descriptions and tried to keep only "facts". The latter is rather hard to decide on, because not a single source is mentioned to back up all the names, ages and claims, yet the article was written in the style of an eye witness which makes it even less believable. I removed the reference to the German convoy attack. It did nothing but imply that this was a revenge attack by Germans, while it's undisputed that villages were cleaned out by the thousands. Also, not a single source is given for the statement which makes it that much harder to use. While I can see that there might not have been written evidence for a massacre, the Germans themselves certainly would have a mentioning if one of their soldiers had died, especially if it was an officer.
I straightened out the various contradictions, for example first it is said that only one man survived. Later the article states that three kids managed to escape. After that two girls are mentioned who supposedly escaped the fire, but also two boys are said of having survived. While it was implicated that only children survived, an adult survivor is named to make the total contradiction complete. Since it's already obvious that this scribble is not reliable, I left out any conclusions about the number of surviving people and just stuck to the explicitly described incidences.
I also kicked out the mentioned families in the beginning and the rather prosaic description of their feelings. It doesn't matter which families were burned, unless ALL of them are mentioned. Just mentioning some selectively serves no purposes and seems to have only been done for an effect of dramatization.
Furthermore, I kicked out tautologies, for example one that attributed "under age" to children, while the term "children" always implies that they are underage. Others include using the term "inhabitants" and specifying it with "including old and children". Unless it was a predominantly male society where old and children were rare, this mentioning is not needed, since inhabitants of a town or village usually contain all ages and sexes. This was just another weak attempt to influence the reader. I also tried to straighten out clumsily sounding English. Since I'm not a native English speaker myself, I may not have succeeded at this.-- 92.78.48.97 ( talk) 09:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
In the Brezhnev era USSR, much attention was paid to this Nazi crime, possibly with the intention of diverting attention from the Katyn massacre of Polish officers[5] . According to Norman Davies, of Wolfson College, Oxford, the village was chosen and the memorial created by the Soviet authorities in a calculated policy of disinformation,[6] designed to create confusion with the Katyn massacre.
Ok, the references provided for this diatribe are [5] which 404'ed and [6] has ISBN that points to completely different book and Mr. Norman Davies's own Wikipedia page states that his Polish bias are well known in historical circles.
This looks like a deliberate and insipid attempt to divert attention from and lower the significance of Katyn massacre by Polish-biased editors. I suggest we remove this NPOV paragraph completely. Zealander ( talk) 03:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Hiya to all. A question on the titling, as this article came up in a discussion about use of capitals in article naming on Talk:Denial of the Armenian Genocide#Requested move; specifically and NARROWLY PLEASE, about the capitalization of titles of events like these. Is Khatyn massacre a proper noun, and if so, shouldn't it be Khatyn Massacre? Here's my sense of it, copied from over there at the RfM, [where the proposal (not mine, I had questions that led to you) was to move the page from Denial of the Armenian Genocide to Armenian Genocide denial]: This was my first question, because I thought, "Well, this would conform better to the Manual of Style (which does not cover this specific point...YET):
"In the Brezhnev era USSR, much attention was paid to this Nazi crime, possibly with the intention of diverting attention from the Soviet crime of the Katyn massacre of Polish officers"
How long are these populist and unfounded statements will be present at the text of the encyclopedic article? Moreover, they denigrated the memory of hundreds of thousands of Belarusians who died at the hands of Nazi occupiers, they are an example of a typical anti-Soviet ravings of the Cold War.
The very construction of this phrase is intended to whitewash the crimes of the Nazis, to make them a kind of myth, a red herring.
Who is Fischer, Benjamin B? Retired CIA officer- very credible and respectable source of information. Maybe also an opinion of retired KGB general should be provided? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.94.164.195 ( talk) 16:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
There is alot of good information here; is it possible for someone who is a native english speaker to correct this article? Cillmore ( talk) 01:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It's actually Soviets who desecrated the memory of the victims of this Nazi crime, when they decided to use them to obfuscate their own responsibility for their own crime. -- 212.87.13.78 ( talk) 16:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Does the sentence "Khatyn, Chatyń (Belarusian and Russian: Хаты́нь, pronounced [xɐˈtɨnʲ]) was a village in Belarus, in Lahojsk district, Minsk Voblast" mean to suggest that Khatyn is a village in some larger geographic unit called Chatyń or are these variants of the same place name? If the latter, perhaps the formulation "Katyn, also spelled Chatyń" should be used. -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
User Mistery Spectre conducts purposeful campaign twisting historical events. User Mistery Spectre was seen in Ukrainophobia. And has a great aversion to all Ukrainians as a nation. In statte Khatyn massacre, he tries to put the Ukrainians as involved in this tragedy. In the role of killers. In the Ukrainian Wikipedia, there are professional historians, and they all claim that the version of Mistery Spectre preconceived, one-sided, Soviet version. Version Khatyn massatsre that now - the false! I put the old version before the user Mistery Spectre edits. ✍ Green Zero Letter me 12:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Khatyn massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The article cited for the Dirlewanger Brigade's involvement in the atrocity does not many any explicit reference to this unit and the article concerning the Shutzmannschaft Battalion 118 implies they committed the atrocity exclusively. A better citation is needed or it should be omitted. 100.12.50.204 ( talk) 04:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 22, 2010, March 22, 2013, and March 22, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Khatyn massacre be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Belarus may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
To Ben-Vevel, the similarity of the names, fairly and logically would be sufficient reason to want to clarify the difference betweent the two events. Hard to understand why this clarification would be a problem to anyone. Before I readd this small but important detail to the Khatyn article, and a similar addition to the Katyn article, I am willing to discuss it further. Perhaps if you can show me where Katyn has been unnecessarily added to other articles of this nature, I would agree with your position, that there has been some kind of over kill on the subject. Dr. Dan 16:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have asked Ben-Vevel a question here and on our respective talk pages in a civil and a "just wanting to know attitude". Unfortunately, he has not yet responded. So I'll ask him again, and anyone else for that matter, what the objection could possibly be, to not want to distinguish between two similarly named horrible events. Why someone would object to clarifying some confusion between two similarly named events that took place in relatively the same time period, and relatively the same geographical location, is somewhat mystifying. It honestly deserves some introspection, less it be interpreted as some weird agenda, that is deliberately trying to deprive unknowing persons of the truth regarding both events. Dr. Dan 01:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Now, it's specified in this article, but not thanks to you. What confused me was your removal of the information that didn't appeal to you without readding anything to clarify the matter. In any case it, seems to be settled fairly now. Dr. Dan 02:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The quoted book says something different than written in the article. Either correct or remove the link. Xx236 14:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
After having a look at who writes or wrote there:
http://www.ihr.org/other/authorbios.html
I have decided to delete that link. Not because it claims that the site was chosen for the similarity of the name (only in English) but because it claims that it never happened. Small surprise that guys writing there would do so? User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 17:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
To Piotrus - it seems this article did not say that the Balts participated in *this* massacre, but rather that they participated in other similar events in Belarus. However, the way the article is currently written is wrong:some of the things does not belong here, a separate article should be written about the German operations in general, and this should be left about this particular massacre. Village burning as a revenge for actions of the Soviet partisans was common not only in Belarus, but in other occupied territories as well, therefore, perhaps it would be the best to add it to the existing Soviet Partisans article? However, the information as it is written now is factually inaccurate (the batallion name numbers are not accurate frommy knowledge of the events (even the number of batallions that participated itself is not clear, as it says 10 but 11 are listed) other inaccuracies also exist, such as downplaying (not mentioning) the actions of Belarusian collaborators who also participated in these events). And, as well, that text is a possible copyright violation, as it is largely copied and pasted from the official website of Khatyn massacre, link to which is given at the bottom (just few words are changed, example: the word "fascist" is changed to "nazi"). Therefore, I am removing that misplaced, inaccurate and possible copyvio section. If I'll find out more about these German operations (revenge for Soviet partisan actions), I might write an separate article about them myself. Kaiser 747 09:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for interfering in your and Kaiser's dialogue, but I would just like to note, that I have explained some related things in your talk page rather than here, as it has soemthing to do with general Wikipedia policies rather than particular articles. I hope that will help. As for NKVD by the way, I am not sure if Katyn should or should not be mentioned here (the reason why it could is a similar sounding name which might mislead some users into believing that this is the same event), but, in general, of course, I would like to note that the fact that many massacres were perpetrated not by NKVD does not means that NKVD massacres should not be mentioned at all - Wikipedia is big enough, all the more imprtant events will find their place here. Burann 11:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The outcome of the genocide policy was that 2 230 000 people were killed in Belarus within the three years of German occupation. Every fourth Belarusian died during the WWII.
1. It's "Khatyn massacre", not Belarus in the WWII. 2. The number is doubful. What is your non-Soviet source? Xx236 14:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
In order for this discussion to be more visible I have moved it here at one place. No one have yet provided any counter-arguements. Kaiser 747 09:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
At Talk:Lviv User:Irpen has suggested to move this article to Khatyn incident and asked me to propose such a move as a sign of good will. While I'm certainly not sure it's a good idea, I'd like to hear what the others think. // Halibu tt 09:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Here we go again about the usage of strong terms in Wikipedia. Let me explain for a umpteenth time my take on this. First, strong terms in titles should be avoided at all cost. This article's new name should reflect this common sense rule.
Another issue is whether we are allowed to use strong words in Wikipedia or we are not allowed to use them at all, even in the text. Strong words are not only "massacre" (as opposed to incident), but also "liberated" , "occupied", "murdered" as well as nouns, like "Genocide" (as opposed to "numerous deaths"), "uprising" (as opposed to "mutiny"), "revolution" (as opposed to coup d'etat), etc. If all these words are banned, we should only use "killed", "died", "taken", etc. This, however, is not the case. No encyclopedia, book, writer, no matter how NPOV can be required to stick to PC language and no one does that, including the very respectable Britannica and Columbia which also have NPOV policy.
The issue is different. If the majority of scholars see something as NPOV and acceptable usage, we can use this here as well. That the Holocaust was Genocide, that creationism is unscientific (still doesn't make it wrong), October was revolution, Pinochet was coup, Bounty was "mutiny", 1939 was Soviet-German Occupation of Poland, and 1943-45 was liberation of Europe are the terms the scholars agree on to use. I don't object to the usage of the strong words in the article texts, provided that they are backed up by similarly wide usage in the majority of the literature. I will not support the expunging of the word massacre from the article's text. But titles, are the different story. Katyn incident, Battle of the Lower Dnieper (rather than Liberation of Ukraine), Khotin uprising (rather than Khotin Massacre) and its "mirror", so to speak, Fântâna Albă incident rather than Fântâna Albă massacre, etc. -- Irpen 17:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This above was written under my false impression that we are talking about Katyn massacre -> Katyn incident move. My typo caused the confusion. I still support ridding "massacre" from all article titles. This one should be just Khatyn (since there is no village, a shorter title is preferred). The other article has to go to Katyn incident. In Katyn as well as in this article we can keep massacre in the text, but rid the titles from such. How about that? -- Irpen 18:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I was going to bed but this one caught my eye. If it looks like a massacre and smells like a massacre, it probably is a massacre. What can any honest person call the murder of these POWS, besides a massacre (or worse)? Some of these officers, were "kids", who did not deserve such deaths (nor did the older ones, either). It's a historical event that makes me sick, whenever I'm reminded of it, and there cannot be any rationale or excuse for it. And after reading about the Khotin massacre, for the first time, it should be so renamed, IMHO. Dr. Dan 04:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. Goodnght, and this time I mean it!
If Katyn incident then Auschwitz falanster, Zyklon B inhalations against asthma and Gulag travels for Stakhanovites.
Incident says "An incident is a series of events that involves an attack or series of attacks (compromise and/or breach of security) at one or more sites. Who did attack someone in Katyń? Xx236 13:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't see consensus for the move, so page not moved. Eugène van der Pijll 21:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform, e.g. where is the Khatyn situated. Xx236 13:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It still doesn't. Xx236 08:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Khatyn has been selected as the symbol from tens or hundreds equal places because of its English name. Such information should be in this article. The best tactics is to accuse others of POV and to promote his own POV.
This article is about Nazi pacifications in Belarus, not only about Khatyn massacre. Some edits or new article are needed. Xx236 08:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
And I request limiting of the NKVD/KGB propaganda. Xx236 11:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC) [1] A Thesis Presented to the Department of History Western Illinois University Xx236 11:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Polish language text: http://tygodnik.onet.pl/1560,1180210,dzial.html
There is also allegedly a capsule in Europe by Davies. Xx236 14:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I think Davies ref is enough to show it's not a fringe theory. For the record, I have 404 accessing Fischer's article, but pdf link works - but I think its the entire CSI part of CIA section that just has a short downtime. Anyway, Studies in Intelligence seems relativly reliable, although one should of course keep in mind possible bias originating from CIA pro-American stance. That stance, however, should not be significant when dealing with history of Soviet Union (see also [3], [4] and [5] for blurbs about that journal).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record: we have this page crowded by a group of "truth-seekers" from the Polish noticeboard within several hours after intense and incivil canvassing on that page by Xx236. [6] Once again, I urge the administrators to delete the canvas-board, where they belittle "a small nuumber of Auschwitz prizoners" as compared to the great and overpowering tragedy of Katyn. Until that is done, I won't stoop to continuing the discussion. -- Ghirla -трёп- 19:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Writing about Soviet crimes isn't Russia-bashing:
Xx236 10:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Auschwitz concentration camp informs:
Xx236 06:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
For all the handwringing about the sentence regarding the reasons for the focus on Khatyn, nobody has pointed to any other explanation why this village was chosen from among the many others in the region whose residents were slaughtered by Nazi troops. In the absence of such other explanations, and with a number of significant scholars supporting the Katyn-divergence thesis (which also makes sense in the context of Cold War politics), I think this sentence or something like it belongs in this article. Indeed, removal of it makes it much more difficult to understand the history of memorialization at Khatyn. BenA ( talk) 11:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
When I looked at this article today, the sentence on Katyn and Khatyn had been edited to say that Khatyn was chosen to divert attention from the "Nazi crime" at Katyn. This not only falsely attributed Katyn (as opposed to Khatyn) to the Nazis, but it also makes no sense whatsoever on its face. Were Katyn in fact a Nazi crime, the Soviets would have had no interest in diverting attention from it. But Katyn was a Soviet crime, and the focus on the Nazi crime at Khatyn was related to Soviet attempts to divert attention from Katyn. BenA ( talk) 11:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I strongly believe that the number of over 2 milion killed in Belorussia is confusing. First of all it includes Belorussia 1938, annexed territories in Poland within 1945 borders and Bialystok area. It also includes Jews (if we take 10% as avarage Jewish population this will gives us 800 000 people, but there were areas with 15% of Jews and most of small towns were entirely Jewish), all population killed by Soviets(few hundred thousands), conscripted KIA, vllages burnt by partisans. The numbers invented by Soviet propaganda usually were few times enlarged to make more impression (see 4 milion of victims of Auschwitz versus 1.2 milion reality). Can we give it here with question mark rather then reality? Cautious 09:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a post-Soviet statistic. Please give references for your figure of Soviet civilians supposedly killed by Soviet troops. Feketekave ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Most of civilians murdered by Nazis in what is today's Belarussia were Jews. This biased, skewed article doesn't mention Jewish victims in its general statistics. - Yohananw ( talk) 00:07, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
The article is unclear on whether the village exists or not. If it doesn't, and it has been turned into a memorial (as pl wiki suggests), this should be clarified. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV violation tag to the article. Pages about massacres, mass killings, etc. are not meant to be a collection of however many frivolous insults and arbitrary political labels can be hurled at the perpatrators in a single, massive text wall. This article requires serious work to be brought up to NPOV standards. -- NEMT ( talk) 04:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place for political propaganda!! Also not for russian contributors who would like to cover the fact that Soviet russians killed up to 22 000 polish people in Kathyn/Katyn in 1940. This article is clearly some work from Kreml-friendly/Putin-friendly persons, maybe even written by Kreml own propaganda staff (the few ones who can english). It's easy to see on the level of details, and the way they want to lead the reader to think. Please clarify that there have been two massacres, do not forget that Soviet atrocities under Stalin was on the level with Nazi-Germany, Stalin was even worse than Hitler if you do a body count. This is not a place for propaganda!! Jarao 22.26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
dude, you're talking about no propaganda, and you just totally put in your own judgmental point of view there. Stalin was much worse than Hitler?? Please. Do you have a proper documented source that clearly states that Stalin was worse than Hitler? Hitler committed/started the Genocide. Stalin did not. And just so you know, my mom is half German so I'm obviously not trying to be anti-German. You seem to have something against Russians? And what's up with the "few that can (speak) english" comment? Another dig at the Russians? lol and yes I just realized you wrote that 2 years ago but it still stands. Lenachka25 ( talk) 07:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
isn't it a bit... extreme to say the article violates npov, just because in its style it condemnes the massacre? -- Gerrit C U T E D H 12:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
After reading through the article I decided to clean it up. As someone here already mentioned it: it's a bad piece of propaganda scribble. I'm disturbed that something like this could survive at wikipedia for so long. I'm a journalist who regularly uses it, so I'm just the more shocked that the otherwise high quality standards of wikipedia that I regularly defend in my profession had been undermined that severely.
Here's what I did: I only stuck to the part of the article which states no sources. I removed most of the opinionated, colorful descriptions and tried to keep only "facts". The latter is rather hard to decide on, because not a single source is mentioned to back up all the names, ages and claims, yet the article was written in the style of an eye witness which makes it even less believable. I removed the reference to the German convoy attack. It did nothing but imply that this was a revenge attack by Germans, while it's undisputed that villages were cleaned out by the thousands. Also, not a single source is given for the statement which makes it that much harder to use. While I can see that there might not have been written evidence for a massacre, the Germans themselves certainly would have a mentioning if one of their soldiers had died, especially if it was an officer.
I straightened out the various contradictions, for example first it is said that only one man survived. Later the article states that three kids managed to escape. After that two girls are mentioned who supposedly escaped the fire, but also two boys are said of having survived. While it was implicated that only children survived, an adult survivor is named to make the total contradiction complete. Since it's already obvious that this scribble is not reliable, I left out any conclusions about the number of surviving people and just stuck to the explicitly described incidences.
I also kicked out the mentioned families in the beginning and the rather prosaic description of their feelings. It doesn't matter which families were burned, unless ALL of them are mentioned. Just mentioning some selectively serves no purposes and seems to have only been done for an effect of dramatization.
Furthermore, I kicked out tautologies, for example one that attributed "under age" to children, while the term "children" always implies that they are underage. Others include using the term "inhabitants" and specifying it with "including old and children". Unless it was a predominantly male society where old and children were rare, this mentioning is not needed, since inhabitants of a town or village usually contain all ages and sexes. This was just another weak attempt to influence the reader. I also tried to straighten out clumsily sounding English. Since I'm not a native English speaker myself, I may not have succeeded at this.-- 92.78.48.97 ( talk) 09:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
In the Brezhnev era USSR, much attention was paid to this Nazi crime, possibly with the intention of diverting attention from the Katyn massacre of Polish officers[5] . According to Norman Davies, of Wolfson College, Oxford, the village was chosen and the memorial created by the Soviet authorities in a calculated policy of disinformation,[6] designed to create confusion with the Katyn massacre.
Ok, the references provided for this diatribe are [5] which 404'ed and [6] has ISBN that points to completely different book and Mr. Norman Davies's own Wikipedia page states that his Polish bias are well known in historical circles.
This looks like a deliberate and insipid attempt to divert attention from and lower the significance of Katyn massacre by Polish-biased editors. I suggest we remove this NPOV paragraph completely. Zealander ( talk) 03:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Hiya to all. A question on the titling, as this article came up in a discussion about use of capitals in article naming on Talk:Denial of the Armenian Genocide#Requested move; specifically and NARROWLY PLEASE, about the capitalization of titles of events like these. Is Khatyn massacre a proper noun, and if so, shouldn't it be Khatyn Massacre? Here's my sense of it, copied from over there at the RfM, [where the proposal (not mine, I had questions that led to you) was to move the page from Denial of the Armenian Genocide to Armenian Genocide denial]: This was my first question, because I thought, "Well, this would conform better to the Manual of Style (which does not cover this specific point...YET):
"In the Brezhnev era USSR, much attention was paid to this Nazi crime, possibly with the intention of diverting attention from the Soviet crime of the Katyn massacre of Polish officers"
How long are these populist and unfounded statements will be present at the text of the encyclopedic article? Moreover, they denigrated the memory of hundreds of thousands of Belarusians who died at the hands of Nazi occupiers, they are an example of a typical anti-Soviet ravings of the Cold War.
The very construction of this phrase is intended to whitewash the crimes of the Nazis, to make them a kind of myth, a red herring.
Who is Fischer, Benjamin B? Retired CIA officer- very credible and respectable source of information. Maybe also an opinion of retired KGB general should be provided? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.94.164.195 ( talk) 16:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
There is alot of good information here; is it possible for someone who is a native english speaker to correct this article? Cillmore ( talk) 01:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It's actually Soviets who desecrated the memory of the victims of this Nazi crime, when they decided to use them to obfuscate their own responsibility for their own crime. -- 212.87.13.78 ( talk) 16:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Does the sentence "Khatyn, Chatyń (Belarusian and Russian: Хаты́нь, pronounced [xɐˈtɨnʲ]) was a village in Belarus, in Lahojsk district, Minsk Voblast" mean to suggest that Khatyn is a village in some larger geographic unit called Chatyń or are these variants of the same place name? If the latter, perhaps the formulation "Katyn, also spelled Chatyń" should be used. -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
User Mistery Spectre conducts purposeful campaign twisting historical events. User Mistery Spectre was seen in Ukrainophobia. And has a great aversion to all Ukrainians as a nation. In statte Khatyn massacre, he tries to put the Ukrainians as involved in this tragedy. In the role of killers. In the Ukrainian Wikipedia, there are professional historians, and they all claim that the version of Mistery Spectre preconceived, one-sided, Soviet version. Version Khatyn massatsre that now - the false! I put the old version before the user Mistery Spectre edits. ✍ Green Zero Letter me 12:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Khatyn massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The article cited for the Dirlewanger Brigade's involvement in the atrocity does not many any explicit reference to this unit and the article concerning the Shutzmannschaft Battalion 118 implies they committed the atrocity exclusively. A better citation is needed or it should be omitted. 100.12.50.204 ( talk) 04:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)