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That's a pretty lame picture of Juggernaut. I believe it would be worth considering obtaining a better one.
Remember the Picture of the Juggernaut before this one? Where he is on top of a car and is smashing it? There were mountains in the backround? Can we change it back to that one? That one is the best pic of the Juggernaut.
As I said, if someone can find another one that meets the criteria, fine. Just be able to provide a source and the artist. Asgardian ( talk) 01:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the old image can be found? I'm at a loss to where to find it on the internets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.211.118 ( talk) 08:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
User:Asgardian continues, as he was done on other pages, to mash-up the fictional and the real-life by removing the "Fictional character biography" subhead and proceeding to blend in-universe and real-world material in a confounding jumble. I support User:Ghidorah's efforts to revert this non-consensus insistence that has caused trouble at Rhino (comics), Abomination (comics), Awesome Android and elsewhere. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 15:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Tenebrae has also rather oddly tried to encourage this user - who may be a sockpuppet for a repeat offender - to join in a "Request For Comment" on myself. Despite a claim of neutrality, the faux pas above says otherwise. Asgardian ( talk) 01:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Two editors favor a version of this article that one editor, Asgardian, continues to revert in a manner that does not conform to WikiProject Comics MOS. Asgardian has also made contentious, unproven claims about one of the other editors (see immediately above). -- Tenebrae ( talk) 02:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I am trying to deal with a user who appears to have an obsession with this article, given the fact that they only appeared recently and as per their Edit Summary fixtate on it : [5]. Their use of langugage would suggest one of three possibilities:
1. An editor intent on deliberate vandalism. 2. The editor is very young and does not understand Wikipedia rules and practices. 2. The editor has an undisclosed medical condition.
I would ask Tenebrae to assist, rather than exacerbate, the mediation process here.
Many thanks
Asgardian ( talk) 06:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
May I just add that the fight between World War Hulk and the newly empowered Juggernaut was not a fair fight. The particular issue was World War Hulk - X-Men #3 of 3 of the Marvel Limited Series. During the fight at the X-Men Mansion Professor X calls out to the Juggernaut that they cannot continue to fight without undermining the foundations of the mansion (as a huge crater had been formed that was soon to cave-in on top of the injured Beast who was in the cellars below). It was during this time of hearing his step-brother's pleas that the Hulk launched Juggernaut through a wall and into the nearby lake. I feel this has to be included in the article as it is not indicative of the events that led up to Juggernaut's 'stoppage' as earlier described. Juggernaut had a conscience and the Hulk had used it against him, thus Juggernaut was not utilizing his full potential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyB144 ( talk • contribs) 14:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I apologise in advance if this is in the wrong place and/or if you wanted me to go about adding the reference myself, but the issue you need whereupon Skaar hits Juggernaut into space is
I've protected the page.
Please use the talk page to resolve the content issues, rather than edit warring.
If you feel that a consensus has formed, please let me or any other uninvolved admin know.
And of course, any other uninvolved admin may alter or remove the protection as they see appropriate, just please frop me a note on my talk page. - jc37 02:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Greetings. This one is unfortunately nuisance value. Despite repeated attempts at advising Ghidorah as to editing practices [6], this editor continues to revert, despite my making some suggested changes and that version being supported by another editor on several occasions [7]. I am a tad suspicious as this editor appeared out of the ether recently and it appears only remains on Wikipedia to attempt to maintain an inferior version of one article [8].
I was surprised by Tenebrae's involvement in a simple matter [9] , but was not when there was no discussion over what were very straight forward edits, which have again been supported. Ghidorah's blind reversions and unwillingness to cooperate seem to be the issues here.
Regards. Asgardian ( talk) 04:23, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Once again you fail to acknowledge to everything that was explained to you here [10]. The revised article incorporates what can be used from the old, as you've been told. We do not, however, keep incorrect or weak material. That may be fan preference, but it is not Wikipedia policy.
You could be blocked for violating the spirit of the 3-Revert Rule [11], as you come out of left field after no editing for days and perform three blind edits, despite consensus being against you. There is then no activity on the account once more [12]. This is not collaborative or helpful.
Asgardian ( talk) 03:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a note here regarding the "spirit of the 3-revert rule despite consensus against it". Asgardian most definitely does not follow this practice in regards to the Dormammu article, and has a long history of edit-wars and bans because of this. ( This is just the tip of the iceberg, as he usually manages to rationalise his way out of it.) I've tried to again give the benefit of doubt and to reason with him recently, but it doesn't appear to help. Dave ( talk) 10:40, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Asgardian here gives the simple edit summary "Added 3rd party source" — even though this edit was a COMPLETE REWRITE reverting the article to his controversial, edit-war version. This is a blithely dishonest edit summary, and one more example of Asgardian's contentious and disruptive behavior. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 06:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I have also yet to see the original dissenter refute any of my points, which were explained in an amicable fashion.
Many thanks. Asgardian ( talk) 21:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted the article to the last version before the edit war between Asgardian and David A started. From what I can see, Asgardian has simply continued to reinsert the same disputatious, non-consensus version as always, with tweaks and tucks here and there, but essentially the same material.
I've asked admin BOZ to consider protecting the page again. Since that would be the third protection in a short period of time, I wonder if, for the sake of the article's stability and to save other editors' time, that the warring parties be blocked from editing this article for a cooldown period of three to six months, as happened with me myself and Scott Free at John Buscema. If I remember correctly, I may even have suggested it myself. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 21:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
With my edits just now to this article, I hope to reach out to Asgardian, and demonstrate how editors can work together by giving reasons for each edit, rather than going in wholesale. I don't know whether I'll be rebuffed, but, to me, this free encyclopedia for everyone in the world is too important not to have anyone who can reasonably edit do so. During his three weeks of being blocked, I'm hopeful that I can provide things like the following without having to worry about an edit war.
Now, the version that Asgardian was reverting has its own problems, most notably a mashup of the types of the material that should be found separately in the real-world "Publication history" and in the present-tense, in-universe "Fictional character biography" (or whatever one chooses to call that section. Me, I'll go with the phrasing people spent a lot of time hashing out, with reasons for each of the three words).
I've just worked on the intro and the PH on this initial pass. The PH can sill use some injections of real-world creator names, but I wanted to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible for now.
Below, I've taken two sections of Asgardian's edits, and given each the edit that I've done today, followed by very specific reasons for each edit. I can only hope this effot helps shed some light and reduce the heat.
Debuting in the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in the one-shot publications Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999). The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
Debuting during the period historians and fans call the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in two one-shot solo publications. The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
The lead is a general overview; it doesn't have to get bogged down in laundry lists of specific titles, particularly of minor one-shots over a decade old. I've also used the standard phrasing we have throughout the Project that defines "Silver Age of comic books" in context for general readers, for whom Wikipedia policy says we write.
==Publication history==
=== Origin ===
Writer Mike Conroy stated "The characters who debuted during the early years of Marvel's mutant X-Men have been remarkably long-lived, and Cain Marko is no exception." [1]
The character debuted in a storyline in X-Men #12 - 13 (July - Sep. 1965), and throughout the first issue of the story rampaged largely unseen through the X-Men's defences while Professor X related the villain's origin in a series of flashback sequences to the team. Marko is the step-brother of Charles Xavier, and developed an intense dislike for his sibling which was only exacerbated when Xavier's mutant abilities began to develop. While the pair served in the US Army and were stationed in Korea, Marko found a hidden temple dedicated to entity Cyttorak. On entering Marko finds and holds a huge ruby, and reads the inscription on the gem aloud:
“ | Whosoever touches this gem shall be granted the power of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak! Henceforth, you who read these words, shall become ... forevermore ... a human juggernaut! | ” |
The gem channels Cyttorak's power into Marko, transforming him into what Xavier - witnessing the event - called a "human Juggernaut".
After an initial defeat, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32 - 33 (May - June 1967). The character reappeared in Doctor Strange #182 (Sep. 1969); Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973) and Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974), and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers.
The Juggernaut returned in X-Men #101 - 103 (Oct; Dec & Feb. 1976), the relaunched title that featured the first generation of "new" X-Men. Storylines in Spider-Woman #37 - 38 (April & June 1981) and Amazing Spider-Man #229 - 230 (June - July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, with storylines in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled an all-new generation of mutants in X-Men #217 - 218 (April - June 1987); and appears in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor #411 - 412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other memorable appearances included an encounter with creator Cyttorak in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sep. 1996); Juggernaut #1 (April 1997); the "Eighth Day" issue Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999); Avengers vol. 3, #23 - 25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410 - 413 (Sep. - Dec.. 2002); X-Men #162 - 164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005) and an encounter with step-brother Xavier in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009).
The magazine Wizard ranked the Juggernaut #188 on their list of the "Top 200 Comic Book Characters of All Time". [2] In 2009, Juggernaut was also ranked as IGN's 19th Greatest Comic Book Villain of All Time. [3]
The character debuted as an antagonist of the titular mutant superhero team in X-Men #12-13 (July - Sept. 1965). In the first of these issues, he rampaged unseen throughout the X-Men's headquarters as the team's leader, Professor X, related the character's origin in flashbacks. After an initial defeat the following issue, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32-33 (May-June 1967), then fought the sorcerer Doctor Strange in Doctor Strange #182 (Sept. 1969); the X-Men member the Beast in Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973), and the Hulk in The Incredible 'Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974).
After the canceled X-Men returned in the mid-1970s, the Juggernaut returned to fight new iteration of the team in X-Men #101-103 (Oct. 1975 - Feb. 1976). Storylines in Spider-Woman #37-38 (April & June 1981) and The Amazing Spider-Man #229-230 (June-July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, who appeared in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled a new generation of mutants in X-Men #217-218 (April-June 1987); and appeared in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and in a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor #411-412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other appearances included an encounter with his creator, Cyttorak, in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sept. 1996); [[Avengers (comics)|The Avengers vol. 3, #23-25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410-413 (Sept.-Dec. 2002); X-Men #162-164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005); and an encounter with his step-brother Xavier – the X-Men's leader, Professor X -- in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009). He also starred in two solo one-shot publications, Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999).
Standard outline form does not include an A) subset if there is no B) subset, as I've noted many times, so I del'd the "Origin" subhead. The Juggernaut's history isn't so long and convoluted that his PH has to be broken down into small chunks. Also, the opening quote has got nothing to do with a factual roadmap of the character's appearances, and read as some sort of chapter heading or epigram that is not encyclopedic WP:TONE
Del'd "in a storyline": He's a fictional character; it can't be anything but a story that he's in. Better to say what role he served in the story – in this case, antagonist.
Added description of the X-Men, for general-audience reader. Changed "Sep." to "Sept." as per WPC style (and as I've noted to Asgardian many, many, many times).
Don't need to give his fictioanl origin here – that's for the FCB.
"A series of flashback sequences" can be shortened to "flashbacks."
Since he's primarily an X-Men foe, naming his non-X-Men protagonists gives information about his range; a non-comics-fan wouldn't know who starred in Amazing Adventures, for example. Also, both the cover title and the indicia title of that Hulk comic book is The Incredible Hulk, which is also as it's listed at GCD.
Del'd "and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers." First, this is OR without a citation. Second, this could be said of virtually any major character in modern serial fiction … that as the narrative continues, we learn more about the character and, in superhumans' cases, about their powers.
At the beginning of the next paragraph, I brought forward the point that X-Men had been canceled and relaunched, which a general-audience reader would not know. The same sentence gives the added information that there is a new version of the team.
The rest of this paragraph is almost exactly as Asgardian wrote it, with small changes to avoid using the word "storyline" twice in two sentences; to tone down the hype-y phrase "all-new" to simply "new"; and to change the present tense "appears" to the past tense "appeared."
The last paragraph is also mostly as Asgardian wrote it. I del'd "memorable" as POV; moved the solo appearances to their own, separate sentence; defined Xavier for general audience; and del'd "the 'Eighth Day' issue", since without context, I (let alone general readers) have no idea what that means. Also, throughout, I did some minor c/e.
I moved the Wizard part to the intro. It could arguably go somewhere else, but it really didn't belong under "Publication history."
So those are my reasons. Anyone, obviously, is free to add/edit this material, but for the sake of trying to reach out to Asgardian during his three-week block — in an attempt to get him to see how and why other editors have legitimate reasons to disagree with many of his edits, and that his may not actually be "wiki-correct" (to use his term) — please do as I've done and try to give reasons so that Asgardian can see that we're trying to do collaborative, good-faith work. Thanks. --
Tenebrae (
talk)
01:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
References
Unfortunately, DrBat insists on making blind reversions with no discussion (over two editors at present), and so the current compromise has been hammered out. The image of the Juggernaut with the Exemplars is more relevant as this ties to the character's origins and why he has the relationship with the other Exemplars. DrBat's choice is fairly poor as the Juggernaut can hardly be seen, and his rationale that the image is crucial because it tells of the character's redemption is fairly weak as it was only temporary. This change necessitated the removal of the film image to avoid picture overkill. Further comment is sought. Many thanks. Asgardian ( talk) 04:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the above back and for and the article, some questions, observations, and two very strong requests:
- J Greb ( talk) 16:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
An Ultimate shot could work (this is what the character looks like: [25]) if an appropriate image could be sourced. The main SBH image; and Ultimate image and possibly the film image would be fine.
Thanks for injecting some reason into the equation. Regards Asgardian ( talk) 01:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Before it gets removed again I want to point out that MARVEL itself is the source of the information stating that Juggernaut will be in the upcoming revamp of Thunderbolts, so this is NOT speculation. -- Spidey 104 contribs 02:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
should it be mentioned that he can be easliy out smarted? after all his offical ratings gave him a "2 out of 7" for Intelligence?( . ( talk) 16:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC))
Before reverting again, it would be helpful to have discussion here. WikiProjects Comics guidelines are to not have video game plots recounted at length in comics-characters articles, but simply to note the character appears in a particular game and to note any unusual circumstances — but not to give a plot, which properly belongs in the bluelinked game's article. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 14:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be made more clear that Juggernaut isn't actually a mutant. I know it's covered in the character biography & the powers and abilities section, but I feel it should be made clear in the introductory section of the article that he isn't. Anyone just skimming the first section and the info in the little box would probably think he was Asaspades ( talk) 01:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
DangerousGame has suggested the category:Fictional characters with superhuman durability, I think its a different ability from super human strength, and would be part of Juggernauts power of unstop ability, even if the ability does come from the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak. CensoredScribe ( talk) 16:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
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Based on this edit, it's not clear to me if the first paragraph under Juggernaut (comics)#2000s which says "Marko remains with the X-Men" means that he had actually joined the team, or if he was just allied with them for a time. 2601:241:4280:161:5D87:8F2A:6A6C:FF7C ( talk) 11:31, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
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That's a pretty lame picture of Juggernaut. I believe it would be worth considering obtaining a better one.
Remember the Picture of the Juggernaut before this one? Where he is on top of a car and is smashing it? There were mountains in the backround? Can we change it back to that one? That one is the best pic of the Juggernaut.
As I said, if someone can find another one that meets the criteria, fine. Just be able to provide a source and the artist. Asgardian ( talk) 01:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the old image can be found? I'm at a loss to where to find it on the internets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.211.118 ( talk) 08:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
User:Asgardian continues, as he was done on other pages, to mash-up the fictional and the real-life by removing the "Fictional character biography" subhead and proceeding to blend in-universe and real-world material in a confounding jumble. I support User:Ghidorah's efforts to revert this non-consensus insistence that has caused trouble at Rhino (comics), Abomination (comics), Awesome Android and elsewhere. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 15:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Tenebrae has also rather oddly tried to encourage this user - who may be a sockpuppet for a repeat offender - to join in a "Request For Comment" on myself. Despite a claim of neutrality, the faux pas above says otherwise. Asgardian ( talk) 01:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Two editors favor a version of this article that one editor, Asgardian, continues to revert in a manner that does not conform to WikiProject Comics MOS. Asgardian has also made contentious, unproven claims about one of the other editors (see immediately above). -- Tenebrae ( talk) 02:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I am trying to deal with a user who appears to have an obsession with this article, given the fact that they only appeared recently and as per their Edit Summary fixtate on it : [5]. Their use of langugage would suggest one of three possibilities:
1. An editor intent on deliberate vandalism. 2. The editor is very young and does not understand Wikipedia rules and practices. 2. The editor has an undisclosed medical condition.
I would ask Tenebrae to assist, rather than exacerbate, the mediation process here.
Many thanks
Asgardian ( talk) 06:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
May I just add that the fight between World War Hulk and the newly empowered Juggernaut was not a fair fight. The particular issue was World War Hulk - X-Men #3 of 3 of the Marvel Limited Series. During the fight at the X-Men Mansion Professor X calls out to the Juggernaut that they cannot continue to fight without undermining the foundations of the mansion (as a huge crater had been formed that was soon to cave-in on top of the injured Beast who was in the cellars below). It was during this time of hearing his step-brother's pleas that the Hulk launched Juggernaut through a wall and into the nearby lake. I feel this has to be included in the article as it is not indicative of the events that led up to Juggernaut's 'stoppage' as earlier described. Juggernaut had a conscience and the Hulk had used it against him, thus Juggernaut was not utilizing his full potential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyB144 ( talk • contribs) 14:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I apologise in advance if this is in the wrong place and/or if you wanted me to go about adding the reference myself, but the issue you need whereupon Skaar hits Juggernaut into space is
I've protected the page.
Please use the talk page to resolve the content issues, rather than edit warring.
If you feel that a consensus has formed, please let me or any other uninvolved admin know.
And of course, any other uninvolved admin may alter or remove the protection as they see appropriate, just please frop me a note on my talk page. - jc37 02:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Greetings. This one is unfortunately nuisance value. Despite repeated attempts at advising Ghidorah as to editing practices [6], this editor continues to revert, despite my making some suggested changes and that version being supported by another editor on several occasions [7]. I am a tad suspicious as this editor appeared out of the ether recently and it appears only remains on Wikipedia to attempt to maintain an inferior version of one article [8].
I was surprised by Tenebrae's involvement in a simple matter [9] , but was not when there was no discussion over what were very straight forward edits, which have again been supported. Ghidorah's blind reversions and unwillingness to cooperate seem to be the issues here.
Regards. Asgardian ( talk) 04:23, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Once again you fail to acknowledge to everything that was explained to you here [10]. The revised article incorporates what can be used from the old, as you've been told. We do not, however, keep incorrect or weak material. That may be fan preference, but it is not Wikipedia policy.
You could be blocked for violating the spirit of the 3-Revert Rule [11], as you come out of left field after no editing for days and perform three blind edits, despite consensus being against you. There is then no activity on the account once more [12]. This is not collaborative or helpful.
Asgardian ( talk) 03:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a note here regarding the "spirit of the 3-revert rule despite consensus against it". Asgardian most definitely does not follow this practice in regards to the Dormammu article, and has a long history of edit-wars and bans because of this. ( This is just the tip of the iceberg, as he usually manages to rationalise his way out of it.) I've tried to again give the benefit of doubt and to reason with him recently, but it doesn't appear to help. Dave ( talk) 10:40, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Asgardian here gives the simple edit summary "Added 3rd party source" — even though this edit was a COMPLETE REWRITE reverting the article to his controversial, edit-war version. This is a blithely dishonest edit summary, and one more example of Asgardian's contentious and disruptive behavior. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 06:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I have also yet to see the original dissenter refute any of my points, which were explained in an amicable fashion.
Many thanks. Asgardian ( talk) 21:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted the article to the last version before the edit war between Asgardian and David A started. From what I can see, Asgardian has simply continued to reinsert the same disputatious, non-consensus version as always, with tweaks and tucks here and there, but essentially the same material.
I've asked admin BOZ to consider protecting the page again. Since that would be the third protection in a short period of time, I wonder if, for the sake of the article's stability and to save other editors' time, that the warring parties be blocked from editing this article for a cooldown period of three to six months, as happened with me myself and Scott Free at John Buscema. If I remember correctly, I may even have suggested it myself. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 21:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
With my edits just now to this article, I hope to reach out to Asgardian, and demonstrate how editors can work together by giving reasons for each edit, rather than going in wholesale. I don't know whether I'll be rebuffed, but, to me, this free encyclopedia for everyone in the world is too important not to have anyone who can reasonably edit do so. During his three weeks of being blocked, I'm hopeful that I can provide things like the following without having to worry about an edit war.
Now, the version that Asgardian was reverting has its own problems, most notably a mashup of the types of the material that should be found separately in the real-world "Publication history" and in the present-tense, in-universe "Fictional character biography" (or whatever one chooses to call that section. Me, I'll go with the phrasing people spent a lot of time hashing out, with reasons for each of the three words).
I've just worked on the intro and the PH on this initial pass. The PH can sill use some injections of real-world creator names, but I wanted to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible for now.
Below, I've taken two sections of Asgardian's edits, and given each the edit that I've done today, followed by very specific reasons for each edit. I can only hope this effot helps shed some light and reduce the heat.
Debuting in the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in the one-shot publications Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999). The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
Debuting during the period historians and fans call the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in two one-shot solo publications. The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
The lead is a general overview; it doesn't have to get bogged down in laundry lists of specific titles, particularly of minor one-shots over a decade old. I've also used the standard phrasing we have throughout the Project that defines "Silver Age of comic books" in context for general readers, for whom Wikipedia policy says we write.
==Publication history==
=== Origin ===
Writer Mike Conroy stated "The characters who debuted during the early years of Marvel's mutant X-Men have been remarkably long-lived, and Cain Marko is no exception." [1]
The character debuted in a storyline in X-Men #12 - 13 (July - Sep. 1965), and throughout the first issue of the story rampaged largely unseen through the X-Men's defences while Professor X related the villain's origin in a series of flashback sequences to the team. Marko is the step-brother of Charles Xavier, and developed an intense dislike for his sibling which was only exacerbated when Xavier's mutant abilities began to develop. While the pair served in the US Army and were stationed in Korea, Marko found a hidden temple dedicated to entity Cyttorak. On entering Marko finds and holds a huge ruby, and reads the inscription on the gem aloud:
“ | Whosoever touches this gem shall be granted the power of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak! Henceforth, you who read these words, shall become ... forevermore ... a human juggernaut! | ” |
The gem channels Cyttorak's power into Marko, transforming him into what Xavier - witnessing the event - called a "human Juggernaut".
After an initial defeat, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32 - 33 (May - June 1967). The character reappeared in Doctor Strange #182 (Sep. 1969); Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973) and Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974), and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers.
The Juggernaut returned in X-Men #101 - 103 (Oct; Dec & Feb. 1976), the relaunched title that featured the first generation of "new" X-Men. Storylines in Spider-Woman #37 - 38 (April & June 1981) and Amazing Spider-Man #229 - 230 (June - July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, with storylines in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled an all-new generation of mutants in X-Men #217 - 218 (April - June 1987); and appears in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor #411 - 412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other memorable appearances included an encounter with creator Cyttorak in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sep. 1996); Juggernaut #1 (April 1997); the "Eighth Day" issue Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999); Avengers vol. 3, #23 - 25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410 - 413 (Sep. - Dec.. 2002); X-Men #162 - 164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005) and an encounter with step-brother Xavier in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009).
The magazine Wizard ranked the Juggernaut #188 on their list of the "Top 200 Comic Book Characters of All Time". [2] In 2009, Juggernaut was also ranked as IGN's 19th Greatest Comic Book Villain of All Time. [3]
The character debuted as an antagonist of the titular mutant superhero team in X-Men #12-13 (July - Sept. 1965). In the first of these issues, he rampaged unseen throughout the X-Men's headquarters as the team's leader, Professor X, related the character's origin in flashbacks. After an initial defeat the following issue, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32-33 (May-June 1967), then fought the sorcerer Doctor Strange in Doctor Strange #182 (Sept. 1969); the X-Men member the Beast in Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973), and the Hulk in The Incredible 'Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974).
After the canceled X-Men returned in the mid-1970s, the Juggernaut returned to fight new iteration of the team in X-Men #101-103 (Oct. 1975 - Feb. 1976). Storylines in Spider-Woman #37-38 (April & June 1981) and The Amazing Spider-Man #229-230 (June-July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, who appeared in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled a new generation of mutants in X-Men #217-218 (April-June 1987); and appeared in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and in a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor #411-412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other appearances included an encounter with his creator, Cyttorak, in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sept. 1996); [[Avengers (comics)|The Avengers vol. 3, #23-25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410-413 (Sept.-Dec. 2002); X-Men #162-164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005); and an encounter with his step-brother Xavier – the X-Men's leader, Professor X -- in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009). He also starred in two solo one-shot publications, Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999).
Standard outline form does not include an A) subset if there is no B) subset, as I've noted many times, so I del'd the "Origin" subhead. The Juggernaut's history isn't so long and convoluted that his PH has to be broken down into small chunks. Also, the opening quote has got nothing to do with a factual roadmap of the character's appearances, and read as some sort of chapter heading or epigram that is not encyclopedic WP:TONE
Del'd "in a storyline": He's a fictional character; it can't be anything but a story that he's in. Better to say what role he served in the story – in this case, antagonist.
Added description of the X-Men, for general-audience reader. Changed "Sep." to "Sept." as per WPC style (and as I've noted to Asgardian many, many, many times).
Don't need to give his fictioanl origin here – that's for the FCB.
"A series of flashback sequences" can be shortened to "flashbacks."
Since he's primarily an X-Men foe, naming his non-X-Men protagonists gives information about his range; a non-comics-fan wouldn't know who starred in Amazing Adventures, for example. Also, both the cover title and the indicia title of that Hulk comic book is The Incredible Hulk, which is also as it's listed at GCD.
Del'd "and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers." First, this is OR without a citation. Second, this could be said of virtually any major character in modern serial fiction … that as the narrative continues, we learn more about the character and, in superhumans' cases, about their powers.
At the beginning of the next paragraph, I brought forward the point that X-Men had been canceled and relaunched, which a general-audience reader would not know. The same sentence gives the added information that there is a new version of the team.
The rest of this paragraph is almost exactly as Asgardian wrote it, with small changes to avoid using the word "storyline" twice in two sentences; to tone down the hype-y phrase "all-new" to simply "new"; and to change the present tense "appears" to the past tense "appeared."
The last paragraph is also mostly as Asgardian wrote it. I del'd "memorable" as POV; moved the solo appearances to their own, separate sentence; defined Xavier for general audience; and del'd "the 'Eighth Day' issue", since without context, I (let alone general readers) have no idea what that means. Also, throughout, I did some minor c/e.
I moved the Wizard part to the intro. It could arguably go somewhere else, but it really didn't belong under "Publication history."
So those are my reasons. Anyone, obviously, is free to add/edit this material, but for the sake of trying to reach out to Asgardian during his three-week block — in an attempt to get him to see how and why other editors have legitimate reasons to disagree with many of his edits, and that his may not actually be "wiki-correct" (to use his term) — please do as I've done and try to give reasons so that Asgardian can see that we're trying to do collaborative, good-faith work. Thanks. --
Tenebrae (
talk)
01:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
References
Unfortunately, DrBat insists on making blind reversions with no discussion (over two editors at present), and so the current compromise has been hammered out. The image of the Juggernaut with the Exemplars is more relevant as this ties to the character's origins and why he has the relationship with the other Exemplars. DrBat's choice is fairly poor as the Juggernaut can hardly be seen, and his rationale that the image is crucial because it tells of the character's redemption is fairly weak as it was only temporary. This change necessitated the removal of the film image to avoid picture overkill. Further comment is sought. Many thanks. Asgardian ( talk) 04:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the above back and for and the article, some questions, observations, and two very strong requests:
- J Greb ( talk) 16:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
An Ultimate shot could work (this is what the character looks like: [25]) if an appropriate image could be sourced. The main SBH image; and Ultimate image and possibly the film image would be fine.
Thanks for injecting some reason into the equation. Regards Asgardian ( talk) 01:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Before it gets removed again I want to point out that MARVEL itself is the source of the information stating that Juggernaut will be in the upcoming revamp of Thunderbolts, so this is NOT speculation. -- Spidey 104 contribs 02:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
should it be mentioned that he can be easliy out smarted? after all his offical ratings gave him a "2 out of 7" for Intelligence?( . ( talk) 16:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC))
Before reverting again, it would be helpful to have discussion here. WikiProjects Comics guidelines are to not have video game plots recounted at length in comics-characters articles, but simply to note the character appears in a particular game and to note any unusual circumstances — but not to give a plot, which properly belongs in the bluelinked game's article. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 14:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be made more clear that Juggernaut isn't actually a mutant. I know it's covered in the character biography & the powers and abilities section, but I feel it should be made clear in the introductory section of the article that he isn't. Anyone just skimming the first section and the info in the little box would probably think he was Asaspades ( talk) 01:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
DangerousGame has suggested the category:Fictional characters with superhuman durability, I think its a different ability from super human strength, and would be part of Juggernauts power of unstop ability, even if the ability does come from the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak. CensoredScribe ( talk) 16:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
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Based on this edit, it's not clear to me if the first paragraph under Juggernaut (comics)#2000s which says "Marko remains with the X-Men" means that he had actually joined the team, or if he was just allied with them for a time. 2601:241:4280:161:5D87:8F2A:6A6C:FF7C ( talk) 11:31, 1 April 2019 (UTC)