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I don't think this article is intentionally anti-semetic, I do agree some have edited to suit their own veiw points.
There is no denying there was Jewish gangsters, as there was Irish, Italian and Polish gangsters in America. It's important to remember these groups have something in common they were alien in a country who wasn't exactly friendly to them, any way I degress do you think we should mention people like Jack "Spot" in the UK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elitejcx ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this anti-Semitism? This article has existed for a while, I don't know if it's nonsense since the gangsters linked were in fact Jewish, and Murder, Inc. says that a lot of people in it were Jewish? Luigi30 ( Taλk) 12:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
didn't the jews kill the canaanites? or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.85.248 ( talk) 22:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
The page itself is accurate. I deleted two anti-Semitic links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.191.210.134 ( talk • contribs)
Look, yes, there have been, and are Jewish-American gangs and such, just as there are Italian, Irish, Mexican, and African ones. Just as there are Christian and Pagan ones (yes, there are gangs based on religion. Most Mafia organizations are almost as based on religion as on race, and there are several smaller pagan gangs. As for Muslim ones... that I do not know) By the way, 24.83.203.198 is more bigoted than most neo-nazis i've met. "There have never been any Jewish criminals"... a bit of a racial superiority complex, there, don't you think? I can name several. Meyer Lansky ( Hyman Roth from The Godfather is based off of him), Otto Berman, David Berman, Harry Horowitz, and, of course, the man with the coolest name ever, William Lipshitz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.14.206 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/commentary/2004/apr/30/516782598.html
Should this be put in a new section (Present Day?) or in Post War? Or should it be in Israeli organized crime? From what I can tell the Sun is not affiliated with the neo-Nazi propagandists like David Duke or his followers. Any thoughts?-- Son of More 04:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The William Pierce linked here is a noted neo-Nazi with terrorist ties who wrote the book that inspired the Oklahoma City bomber, as his own Wikipedia article attests to. I don't see why such a source should be linked to without at least a disclaimer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unwound ( talk • contribs)
I moved the page back to Jewish-American organized crime to keep in line with similar articles such as Irish-American organized crime, Greek-American organized crime, African-American organized crime, etc. This issue has been hashed out time and again in regards to organized crime-related categories and lists, however this list follows the set naming convention of organized crime lists. If you disagree with this convention, you are free to discuss the matter at relevent projects such as WP:CRIME. However, when making major changes to an article, please consider discussing such changes at the article's talk page first. Thanks. MadMax 12:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK,
Also, the WP:CRIME and WP:CRIMEBIO merged to form a single project several months ago and covers both crime realated topics and biographies. This is mentioned on the project page, although its a common misunderstanding. Your claim however seems almost an unwarrented accusation, however. The topic of organized crime is well documented and is an area of criminology, I only suggested you notify a related project to discuss changing the naming convention of ethnic history articles relating to organized crime. MadMax 05:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK,
MadMax: The issue here is about accuracy and NOT censorship! The point is not to "censor" you or anyone, as your link implies, but rather a request that we somehow create an accurate name for this article that avoids either being or seeming to be a generalization about Jewish Americans or any ethnic or religious group, without removing any of the information in the article (although that too needs closer scrutiny for POV presentation.) That is why American Jews and organized crime makes more sense since "Jewish-American organized crime" creates too strong a verbal and conceptual linkage or intersection between Jewish Americans and the notion of "organized crime." A good example of what I am saying can also be found relating to how not to "link" or "intersect" categories at Wikipedia:Overcategorization#Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference, where the guidelines state: "... people should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career. For instance, in sports, German-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans. Similarly, in criminology, a person's actions are more important than their sexual orientation. While "LGBT literature" is a specific genre and useful categorisation, "LGBT quantum physics" is not." Do you not see how your title goes against this? So far, most editors here seem to be agreeing with my proposal to move this article to American Jews and organized crime. IZAK 08:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I find this a rather useless debate. Jewish-American organized crime is a commonly used term. I don't think Wikipedia is meant to give a phenomenon a different name than what is generally used. I wonder if you would make the same kind of fuss if it was about Jewish-American philantropists. Fortunately those exist, and unfortunately Jewish-American organized crime also exists. You don't change that by calling it something else. - Mafia Expert 13:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Moreover, I did a search on Wikipedia with Jewish-American and got 1612 hits, and Jewish American 18,275. There is Jewish American literature and there are Jewish-American writers, artists, politicians, activists, entertainers, psychologists, photographers etc. etc. Izak, are you going to change all of those as well? - Mafia Expert 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
MadMax: You are citing "sources" that can be debated and disputed and Wikipedia is not in the business of taking sides in larger sociological debates about criminology. Please see the guidelines for Wikipedia articles at descriptive names at WP:NCON and article title. I am not objecting to Category:Jewish American mobsters as individuals, but you cannot have a title that openly implies an intersection between Jewish Americans as a totality with the subject of organized crime. Sure there are Jewish gangs in America American Jews who are involved with organized crime and if you known of a Jewish mafia write about it (an don't let it redirect to Jewish-American organized crime as it does), but "Jewish American organized crime" as a heading alone is too broad, you need to focus it more. IZAK 23:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Proposal:
Move this article to a more suitable and specific NPOV name:
Support
Oppose
I think this discussion is being hijacked by the appearance of some kind of referrendum. As a proposal to move forward, instead of just saying "yes, I want to see the article renamed" or "no I don't want ~", perhaps it would be more instructive and constructive to discuss alternate names. While I don't really support the name, I suggest " Jewish mobsters". Since the article is so horribly lacking in reliable sources, I don't know how far this supposèd phenomenon has ever been anything other than an antisemitic flight of fancy,...but I do know that Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel are "famous" Jewish-American mobsters. I don't see any reliable evidence that indicates that they, or their organizations, were bound by the common thread of Jewishness, but the fact that there are at least a few noteworthy mobsters in American history who happened to be Jewish seems me to warrant some kind of article. The idea, however, that being a Jewish-American had anything to do with their gangster/mobsterism seems me equally disingenuous as would be moving Mafia/ Cosa Nostra to Sicilian-American organized crime...a name which implicates all Sicilian-Americans as complicit in the activities of The Mob, just as the name of this article as Jewish-American organized crime implicitly includes 6+ million Jews in organized crime. Tom e r talk 05:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK, I think your proposal is flawed, but I can't think of a better name at this point. In any case, your proposal is far better than the present title...and as I've outlined briefly above, using the flawed names for other articles to support the present name of this article is...well, in a word, "flawed". I appreciate that people who are fascinated by criminal justice are pivotal in the writing of this article--I think it would be a gross miscarriage of Wikipedia if they weren't...but their perspective on the impact of the article's title is quite obviously horribly flawed. The article isn't the problem, its name, however, is. Your recommendation is a far better choice. What is your proposal for [renaming, I assume?] the category you mentioned? Tom e r talk 06:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not accept your insults, and I think you are bordering racism here with your description of Italians, Blacks and Arabs, maybe you should read WP:NPA. Italian American organized crime is commonly known as the Mafia and Cosa Nostra, that is why it is under that title. But I will make re-direct page with Italian American organized crime, since you insist. Jewish American organized crime is part of the history of the Jewish American community in the United States, which has brought many positive and inspiring contributions, but also some negative. Why can't you come to grips with that? - Mafia Expert 08:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Cohen makes the point of pride for "Tough Jews" because of the stigma of defenselessness and powerlessness. Jewish American gangsters showed that this was not the case. Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You seem to fail to understand that the essence of an encyclopedia is not to censor commonly used terminology. - Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
So MadMax: Even according to you the title of this article is not accurate because it should then have stated clearly that it deals with alleged problems from the 1890s to the 1930s and be called Jewish-American organized crime, 1890 - 1940. And why am I insulting anyone when I state that "Italians who are the main operators of organized crime and that Black neighborhoods are the most dangerous, and that it is Arabs who are on Jihad" -- aren't those truer facts, just as you wish to record inflated facts about Jewish Americans here? IZAK 05:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC) IZAK,
I agree, as far as I am concerned this discussion is closed. I have not seen any convincing argument to change the title, nor any new arguments to do so. This IZAK is just continuing because he likes to pick fights everywhere, just check his talk page, acting as some kind of Jewish American political correctness police. He already exposed himself in this discussion as an example of an exagerated case of Jewish chauvinism. - Mafia Expert 14:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Jewish American organized crime does not imply that all crime is Jewish. Everyone with a little common sense will understand that. It implies that within organized crime in the United States Jewish American gangsters played an important role in which their Jewishness and being part of the Jewish American minority, determined (to a degree) who they were linked with and how and where they operated. You also quote selectively, the Wright State site mentions eleven books about this phenomenon - and identifies it as a specific sub-group in organized crime. Since when is the internet the only source for determining if a certain terminology is commonly used or not? Even before internet existed Jewish American organized crime has been identified as a specific sub-group. There are some Jewish American crime writers, such as Leo Katcher who think the Jewish American gangster Arnold Rothstein "transformed organized crime from a thuggish activity by hoodlums into a big business, run like a corporation, with himself at the top." A gangster like Meyer Lansky played a very important role in the development of organized crime, as well. Their Jewish American background shaped to a degree the development of organized crime in the US. Maybe this is not reflected in the page yet, it should. Saying that the discussion should continue until a consensus is reached sounds like that you won't stop until the title is changed. Does your concept of consensus include that something stays as it is and that you finally will recognize that the title Jewish American organized crime is the right one? Otherwise this discussion is useless. The people who oppose the change of the title have come up with convincing arguments to keep it as it is, in contrast many of the people who support the change don't even bother to explain why and those who do only have flawed arguments suggesting that it would be anti-semitic, although they dare not use the word. - Mafia Expert 09:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Final note (I hope). I added some paragraphs in the article. I hope that takes away the worries expressed in the discussion. I tried to give a balanced description of the phenomenon. While researching the issue on the internet a bit more, I must admit that I was appalled to see the amount of anti-semitic hate sites that give totally distorted views about Jewish and Jewish-American organized crime. It really is disgusting, and I now do better understand the worries expressed above. Still, I believe we should maintain the title as it is, and try to give a neutral view. Otherwise the issue will be hijacked completely by anti-semitic idiots. Consider it as a healthy antidote to virulent anti-semitism. - Mafia Expert 19:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The consensus as of 14 May 2007 (by: The Prince; User:Shmaltz; User:Humus sapiens; User:Steven J. Anderson; User:Tom; User: Daniel; User:Redaktor; User:ChosidFrumBirth; User:Gzuckier; User:FayssalF; User:Runcorn and myself) was to move the article to American Jews and organized crime which should now fit nicely with User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert's own admissions that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. IZAK 10:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I moved it back again. No consensus has been reached. User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert did not admit that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. On the contrary: they sustain that the article is a healthy antidote to the antisemitism that already exists around the issue. Do not deliberately misinterpret my contributions. For your information: "Wikipedia's decisions are based not on the numerical fact of how many people showed up and voted a particular way. Attempts to change consensus must be based on a clear engagement with the reasons behind the previous consensus - not simply on the fact that today more people showed up supporting position A than position B." (see WP:CON). You also have been involved in another violation of WP:CON: "Asking for a consensus in a completely different 'venue' or section of Wikipedia, in the hope of finding more support for a failed proposal, is known disapprovingly as forum-shopping." See your attempts at Talk:African-American organized crime, Talk:African-American#African-American organized crime, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora, Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime, User_talk:IZAK#African-American_organized_crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime, which are only there because you do not approve of Jewish-American organized crime. By the way, on Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime there is also doubt about your proposed change by User:Wassermann: "There is no problem as I see it because "Jewish-American" is the preferred term." - Mafia Expert 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wasserman: This is not a discussion about "Jewish American" we all agree that it's ok as a term and as a notion. The discussion here is about the way "Jewish American" is used in the heading of this article (see my response/s to MafiaExpert). It's not "always" "Jews and Judaism by..." which is usually ONLY used when there is little information for one article about "Jews" only or "Judaism" only in one country. Otherwise articles, when there is lots more information, articles are divided into various sub-articles. Have you read my response to you on my talk page at User talk:IZAK#Moved page ---> American Jews to Jews and Judaism in the United States which explains the criteria behind many articles about Jews and Judaism in countries. Let me know if you have, ok? IZAK 06:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
MafiaExpert: So far I have not reached the point of a "failed proposal" so quit the false comparisons. Why the Jews, Greeks and Blacks are "blessed" with crime articles about them headed as African-American organized crime and Greek-American organized crime (created by MadMax ( talk · contribs)) and this one in Category:Organized crime groups is a pure mystery at this point. Will there be an entry of "xyz-American organized crime" for every one of the approximately 150 ethnicities in Category:Ethnic groups in the United States? (I can't wait for Arab-American organized crime; Polish American organized crime; German American organized crime; Irish American organized crime; Native American organized crime ad infinitum ad nauseum --that should be a lot of fun...) So if only three ethnic groups have been targeted with such article headings, then there is nothing wrong in going to the Wikiprojects and pages that deal with those three suspiciously chosen groups and ask them for their feedback. I did this openly and there is no other way to do it as it effects them as much as it does American Jews. So much for your red herring. As for the Usage of "Jewish American" as I have stated and I will repeat it, and I hope you can see the point without jumping up and making false accuations yet again: If one says that Italian Americans are involved in the Mafia that is a negative statement (even open to WP:LIBEL) whereas if one says that Italian Americans are good cooks that is a positive statement. So not all usages of the term Italian Americans aer equal. Similarly with Jewish Americans, there is nothing wrong with that term and that is not the point of my objections. The problem is that by the laws that govern (a) the English language, (b) logic, and (c) morality (but let's not worry about morality too much, right?) the way one phrases and heads topics is crucial to it MEANING, IMPLICATIONS, and USAGES. Thus the use of the term "Jewish American" or "American Jews" is fine, but to then create an English run-on phrase such as "Jewish-American organized crime" has a possible MEANING and IMPLICATION that all Jewish Americans run or are somehow or other connected to something very negative - "organized crime." You have rejected the input and consensus of other editors that I have noted above and you have reverted the article arbitrarily. IZAK 06:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Deleted external link to www.thebirdman.com, an extremist, white supremacist hate site. -- Steven J. Anderson 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If I've offended you, I apologize. However, I'm not sure how I'm being disruptive. If I've missed something obvious in the article, I would certainly want to know if I'd made a mistake. I hope you'll note, I did refrain from restoring the article to discuss the issue. MadMax 05:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Um MadMax: The home page of that site is this (see bottom and click on "Return to Home Page"): When Victims Rule: A Critique of Jewish Pre-Eminance in America which seems pretty clear as to what it's goals are...shall I say more? IZAK 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
First, I never denied that I originally added that particular link and as I pointed out earlier the specific webpage contained no noticable statement of anti-semitism (in fact Albert Fried's "The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America" is one of several sources cited in the article). If you notice prior discussions on this talk page, I made no objections in similar cases once the subject was discussed. I did not defend these sites when these questions were raised and nor did I oppose their removal once these were pointed out. In fact, going over the article by William Pierce, which cited referenced by the FBI among others, it was my opinion that it was not a relevent source as it related to organized crime in the U.S. As I've mentioned earlier, those discussions can be viewed on this talk page if you care to re read them.
Its very easy to remove an external link for various reasons, however while this may be in violation of good faith, refering to a website as a hate site is a serious accusation without proof. Even your above statement implies I have made anti-semitic statements despite the fact that you've no knowledge of my own ethnic or religious background. If I were to go onto any other article on Wikipedia such as George Bush and remove an external link with the same reason you gave, I'm assuming most editors would at the very least question me nevermind ask me for proof. MadMax 11:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
On a slightly less contentious note, I think this article could use a little information on Detroit's notorious Purple Gang. I linked it in "See also." Those guys ruled the illegal traffic of booze across the Detroit River from Canada into the U.S. Nobody messed with them, not even Capone. Now, there were some tough Jews. -- Steven J. Anderson 20:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't get what's wrong with Jewish-American organized crime. Jewish Americans criminals were (and still are) involved in organized crime (fact), just like any other ethnicity. Jewish Americans did form their own gangs that were predominantly Jewish, being how in the 19th and early 20th centuries Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and other places formed ethnic enclaves in the ghettos. This is also a fact. Jewish American organized crime does not imply some sort of huge international Jewish conspiracy as claimed by jewwatch.com and other places. It just means organized crime that is Jewish-American in it's nature. I can't think of a more PC term to describe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicknackrussian ( talk • contribs)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS NOTHING BUT ETHNIC SLANDER AND APOLOGIA OF RIGHT-WING ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. IT MUST BE SPEEDILY DELETED TO STOP RACIST BIGOTRY.
IMAGINE SOME NEONAZI MILITANT READS THIS PAGE AND STARTS BOMBING SYNAGOGUES OR SOMETHING. WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE? WIKIPEDIA MUST TAKE ITS STAND AGAINST ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. BARELY A HANDFUL OF JEWS HAS NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN ORGANIZED CRIME ACTIVITIES IN AMERICA AND GLOBALY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 ( talk) 12:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
You're kidding me. First of this article should be renamed to jewish mafia. Just as the Russian Mafia and Italian mafia are named "mafia" and not oranized crime. The history aired Histories Mysteries about 5 points gangs and says it is "The jewish mafia". Damn history channel and their anti semetic programs. GET THEM ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGEUE!!!!!! How absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.223.101 ( talk) 21:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
From my understanding Jewish-American organized crime seems to be a euphemism in comparision to Irish mob "Mafia" for Italians and jews are crafty and write Jewish American organized crime. THEY'RE ALL MAFIAS! Irish Mafia Jewish Mafia Italian mafia/mobs/etc....
Links to be avoided Links to blogs, personal web pages and fansites
Evenmoremotor ( talk) 16:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)Evenmoremotor
What's the significance of Frank Rosenthal with Frank Sinatra on the Frank Rosenthal Show? Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
In the After World War II section, we have: Jewish-American organized crime derived from dislocation and poverty, where language and custom made the community vulnerable to undesirables, the sort of thing that fosters criminality among any other ethnicity in a similar situation. Do we have any evidence for this? The reference that was recently added, Christopher Adamson's "Defensive localism in white and black: a comparative history of European-American and African-American youth gangs" [5], deals primarily with youth gangs, rather than adult criminal organizations, and contrasts black and white gangs, rather than positing a universal cause of criminality. If I had to make a guess, I would say that dislocation from the old communities and their institutions, and a historical reluctance to turn in fellow Jews to civil authorities might have played a bigger role than did poverty, but that is just a guess. I don't think the Adamson article sheds much light on this. Peter Chastain ( talk) 11:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
{Jewish American organized crime is part of an entire literature, particularly in the United States, on "tough Jews."}
The whole paragraph that starts with this phrase makes no sence. I rewrote it myself (my rewrite was removed). So someone put a lot of periods in this wacky paragraph. It still makes no sence. What are you trying to say? That there is a lot of literature about Jewish Americans who are 'paticularly in the United States' and are tough? Comon lets get some consensus since the author of this wonderful prose reverts any attempt to change it. Meishern ( talk) 11:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Why isnt it (this article) called Jewish Mafia? Italian Mafia, Jewish Mafia.... It's (the italian mafia article) not Italian organized crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.254.81 ( talk) 18:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Alright so out of 100 arrests 16% were Jews. Who were the other 84%? 30% Italians, 40% Irish? If 16% of all arrestees being Jews is considered a crime way, what would 40% of all arrestees being Irish should be considered? a crime tsunami? How about the present day (2010) murder arrest statics in New York: 64.9% are black, 27.2% are hispanic, 7.3% are white. Does that mean that whites are causing a crime wave? (ref http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/09/18/2008-09-18_blacks_latinos_lead_crime_stats__nypd-2.html) 64.9% is a crime wave. 16% is definitely not. I think the whole sentence should be removed since its POV and biased. Meishern ( talk) 03:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is not neutral. Too much personal "insight"...this isn't supposed to be your take on the jewish mafia. Please just give the information and not your lame analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.69.215 ( talk) 00:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Why are people who don't want Jewish immigration because of all the Jewish mobster crime it brings in called anti-Semitic in this article? Do Italians whine constantly about how nobody loves them and that people are bigots because Italian immigrants are criticized for something negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.187.97 ( talk) 23:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
This whole article is vile antisemitism. 84.3.160.86 ( talk) 18:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
What exactly does a Jewish fraternity committing vandalism have to do with Jewish-American organized crime? I think that the section should be removed-- Donovan Ellis ( talk) 23:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I was redirected here from Russian chanson in which reads "These songs are often set in the city of Odessa, where the Jewish Mafia was characterized as being particularly cheerful and colorful". It seems a shame then that this article stands in place of a dedicated one for Jewish Mafia.
Is there an easy way to see what [[Jewish Mafia]] might have looked like when it was linked from Russian chanson? Leboite ( talk) 10:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
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As the title says, Eastman wasn't Jewish, he was probably of English descent as stated in multiple sources 37.208.32.56 ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
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I don't think this article is intentionally anti-semetic, I do agree some have edited to suit their own veiw points.
There is no denying there was Jewish gangsters, as there was Irish, Italian and Polish gangsters in America. It's important to remember these groups have something in common they were alien in a country who wasn't exactly friendly to them, any way I degress do you think we should mention people like Jack "Spot" in the UK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elitejcx ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this anti-Semitism? This article has existed for a while, I don't know if it's nonsense since the gangsters linked were in fact Jewish, and Murder, Inc. says that a lot of people in it were Jewish? Luigi30 ( Taλk) 12:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
didn't the jews kill the canaanites? or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.85.248 ( talk) 22:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
The page itself is accurate. I deleted two anti-Semitic links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.191.210.134 ( talk • contribs)
Look, yes, there have been, and are Jewish-American gangs and such, just as there are Italian, Irish, Mexican, and African ones. Just as there are Christian and Pagan ones (yes, there are gangs based on religion. Most Mafia organizations are almost as based on religion as on race, and there are several smaller pagan gangs. As for Muslim ones... that I do not know) By the way, 24.83.203.198 is more bigoted than most neo-nazis i've met. "There have never been any Jewish criminals"... a bit of a racial superiority complex, there, don't you think? I can name several. Meyer Lansky ( Hyman Roth from The Godfather is based off of him), Otto Berman, David Berman, Harry Horowitz, and, of course, the man with the coolest name ever, William Lipshitz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.14.206 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/commentary/2004/apr/30/516782598.html
Should this be put in a new section (Present Day?) or in Post War? Or should it be in Israeli organized crime? From what I can tell the Sun is not affiliated with the neo-Nazi propagandists like David Duke or his followers. Any thoughts?-- Son of More 04:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The William Pierce linked here is a noted neo-Nazi with terrorist ties who wrote the book that inspired the Oklahoma City bomber, as his own Wikipedia article attests to. I don't see why such a source should be linked to without at least a disclaimer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unwound ( talk • contribs)
I moved the page back to Jewish-American organized crime to keep in line with similar articles such as Irish-American organized crime, Greek-American organized crime, African-American organized crime, etc. This issue has been hashed out time and again in regards to organized crime-related categories and lists, however this list follows the set naming convention of organized crime lists. If you disagree with this convention, you are free to discuss the matter at relevent projects such as WP:CRIME. However, when making major changes to an article, please consider discussing such changes at the article's talk page first. Thanks. MadMax 12:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK,
Also, the WP:CRIME and WP:CRIMEBIO merged to form a single project several months ago and covers both crime realated topics and biographies. This is mentioned on the project page, although its a common misunderstanding. Your claim however seems almost an unwarrented accusation, however. The topic of organized crime is well documented and is an area of criminology, I only suggested you notify a related project to discuss changing the naming convention of ethnic history articles relating to organized crime. MadMax 05:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK,
MadMax: The issue here is about accuracy and NOT censorship! The point is not to "censor" you or anyone, as your link implies, but rather a request that we somehow create an accurate name for this article that avoids either being or seeming to be a generalization about Jewish Americans or any ethnic or religious group, without removing any of the information in the article (although that too needs closer scrutiny for POV presentation.) That is why American Jews and organized crime makes more sense since "Jewish-American organized crime" creates too strong a verbal and conceptual linkage or intersection between Jewish Americans and the notion of "organized crime." A good example of what I am saying can also be found relating to how not to "link" or "intersect" categories at Wikipedia:Overcategorization#Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference, where the guidelines state: "... people should only be categorized by ethnicity or religion if this has significant bearing on their career. For instance, in sports, German-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans. Similarly, in criminology, a person's actions are more important than their sexual orientation. While "LGBT literature" is a specific genre and useful categorisation, "LGBT quantum physics" is not." Do you not see how your title goes against this? So far, most editors here seem to be agreeing with my proposal to move this article to American Jews and organized crime. IZAK 08:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I find this a rather useless debate. Jewish-American organized crime is a commonly used term. I don't think Wikipedia is meant to give a phenomenon a different name than what is generally used. I wonder if you would make the same kind of fuss if it was about Jewish-American philantropists. Fortunately those exist, and unfortunately Jewish-American organized crime also exists. You don't change that by calling it something else. - Mafia Expert 13:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Moreover, I did a search on Wikipedia with Jewish-American and got 1612 hits, and Jewish American 18,275. There is Jewish American literature and there are Jewish-American writers, artists, politicians, activists, entertainers, psychologists, photographers etc. etc. Izak, are you going to change all of those as well? - Mafia Expert 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
MadMax: You are citing "sources" that can be debated and disputed and Wikipedia is not in the business of taking sides in larger sociological debates about criminology. Please see the guidelines for Wikipedia articles at descriptive names at WP:NCON and article title. I am not objecting to Category:Jewish American mobsters as individuals, but you cannot have a title that openly implies an intersection between Jewish Americans as a totality with the subject of organized crime. Sure there are Jewish gangs in America American Jews who are involved with organized crime and if you known of a Jewish mafia write about it (an don't let it redirect to Jewish-American organized crime as it does), but "Jewish American organized crime" as a heading alone is too broad, you need to focus it more. IZAK 23:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Proposal:
Move this article to a more suitable and specific NPOV name:
Support
Oppose
I think this discussion is being hijacked by the appearance of some kind of referrendum. As a proposal to move forward, instead of just saying "yes, I want to see the article renamed" or "no I don't want ~", perhaps it would be more instructive and constructive to discuss alternate names. While I don't really support the name, I suggest " Jewish mobsters". Since the article is so horribly lacking in reliable sources, I don't know how far this supposèd phenomenon has ever been anything other than an antisemitic flight of fancy,...but I do know that Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel are "famous" Jewish-American mobsters. I don't see any reliable evidence that indicates that they, or their organizations, were bound by the common thread of Jewishness, but the fact that there are at least a few noteworthy mobsters in American history who happened to be Jewish seems me to warrant some kind of article. The idea, however, that being a Jewish-American had anything to do with their gangster/mobsterism seems me equally disingenuous as would be moving Mafia/ Cosa Nostra to Sicilian-American organized crime...a name which implicates all Sicilian-Americans as complicit in the activities of The Mob, just as the name of this article as Jewish-American organized crime implicitly includes 6+ million Jews in organized crime. Tom e r talk 05:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
IZAK, I think your proposal is flawed, but I can't think of a better name at this point. In any case, your proposal is far better than the present title...and as I've outlined briefly above, using the flawed names for other articles to support the present name of this article is...well, in a word, "flawed". I appreciate that people who are fascinated by criminal justice are pivotal in the writing of this article--I think it would be a gross miscarriage of Wikipedia if they weren't...but their perspective on the impact of the article's title is quite obviously horribly flawed. The article isn't the problem, its name, however, is. Your recommendation is a far better choice. What is your proposal for [renaming, I assume?] the category you mentioned? Tom e r talk 06:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not accept your insults, and I think you are bordering racism here with your description of Italians, Blacks and Arabs, maybe you should read WP:NPA. Italian American organized crime is commonly known as the Mafia and Cosa Nostra, that is why it is under that title. But I will make re-direct page with Italian American organized crime, since you insist. Jewish American organized crime is part of the history of the Jewish American community in the United States, which has brought many positive and inspiring contributions, but also some negative. Why can't you come to grips with that? - Mafia Expert 08:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Cohen makes the point of pride for "Tough Jews" because of the stigma of defenselessness and powerlessness. Jewish American gangsters showed that this was not the case. Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You seem to fail to understand that the essence of an encyclopedia is not to censor commonly used terminology. - Mafia Expert 09:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
So MadMax: Even according to you the title of this article is not accurate because it should then have stated clearly that it deals with alleged problems from the 1890s to the 1930s and be called Jewish-American organized crime, 1890 - 1940. And why am I insulting anyone when I state that "Italians who are the main operators of organized crime and that Black neighborhoods are the most dangerous, and that it is Arabs who are on Jihad" -- aren't those truer facts, just as you wish to record inflated facts about Jewish Americans here? IZAK 05:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC) IZAK,
I agree, as far as I am concerned this discussion is closed. I have not seen any convincing argument to change the title, nor any new arguments to do so. This IZAK is just continuing because he likes to pick fights everywhere, just check his talk page, acting as some kind of Jewish American political correctness police. He already exposed himself in this discussion as an example of an exagerated case of Jewish chauvinism. - Mafia Expert 14:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Jewish American organized crime does not imply that all crime is Jewish. Everyone with a little common sense will understand that. It implies that within organized crime in the United States Jewish American gangsters played an important role in which their Jewishness and being part of the Jewish American minority, determined (to a degree) who they were linked with and how and where they operated. You also quote selectively, the Wright State site mentions eleven books about this phenomenon - and identifies it as a specific sub-group in organized crime. Since when is the internet the only source for determining if a certain terminology is commonly used or not? Even before internet existed Jewish American organized crime has been identified as a specific sub-group. There are some Jewish American crime writers, such as Leo Katcher who think the Jewish American gangster Arnold Rothstein "transformed organized crime from a thuggish activity by hoodlums into a big business, run like a corporation, with himself at the top." A gangster like Meyer Lansky played a very important role in the development of organized crime, as well. Their Jewish American background shaped to a degree the development of organized crime in the US. Maybe this is not reflected in the page yet, it should. Saying that the discussion should continue until a consensus is reached sounds like that you won't stop until the title is changed. Does your concept of consensus include that something stays as it is and that you finally will recognize that the title Jewish American organized crime is the right one? Otherwise this discussion is useless. The people who oppose the change of the title have come up with convincing arguments to keep it as it is, in contrast many of the people who support the change don't even bother to explain why and those who do only have flawed arguments suggesting that it would be anti-semitic, although they dare not use the word. - Mafia Expert 09:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Final note (I hope). I added some paragraphs in the article. I hope that takes away the worries expressed in the discussion. I tried to give a balanced description of the phenomenon. While researching the issue on the internet a bit more, I must admit that I was appalled to see the amount of anti-semitic hate sites that give totally distorted views about Jewish and Jewish-American organized crime. It really is disgusting, and I now do better understand the worries expressed above. Still, I believe we should maintain the title as it is, and try to give a neutral view. Otherwise the issue will be hijacked completely by anti-semitic idiots. Consider it as a healthy antidote to virulent anti-semitism. - Mafia Expert 19:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The consensus as of 14 May 2007 (by: The Prince; User:Shmaltz; User:Humus sapiens; User:Steven J. Anderson; User:Tom; User: Daniel; User:Redaktor; User:ChosidFrumBirth; User:Gzuckier; User:FayssalF; User:Runcorn and myself) was to move the article to American Jews and organized crime which should now fit nicely with User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert's own admissions that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. IZAK 10:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I moved it back again. No consensus has been reached. User:MadMax's and User:Mafia Expert did not admit that the article could be misunderstood to imply antisemitism. On the contrary: they sustain that the article is a healthy antidote to the antisemitism that already exists around the issue. Do not deliberately misinterpret my contributions. For your information: "Wikipedia's decisions are based not on the numerical fact of how many people showed up and voted a particular way. Attempts to change consensus must be based on a clear engagement with the reasons behind the previous consensus - not simply on the fact that today more people showed up supporting position A than position B." (see WP:CON). You also have been involved in another violation of WP:CON: "Asking for a consensus in a completely different 'venue' or section of Wikipedia, in the hope of finding more support for a failed proposal, is known disapprovingly as forum-shopping." See your attempts at Talk:African-American organized crime, Talk:African-American#African-American organized crime, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora, Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime, User_talk:IZAK#African-American_organized_crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime, which are only there because you do not approve of Jewish-American organized crime. By the way, on Talk:American_Jews#Jewish-American_organized_crime there is also doubt about your proposed change by User:Wassermann: "There is no problem as I see it because "Jewish-American" is the preferred term." - Mafia Expert 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wasserman: This is not a discussion about "Jewish American" we all agree that it's ok as a term and as a notion. The discussion here is about the way "Jewish American" is used in the heading of this article (see my response/s to MafiaExpert). It's not "always" "Jews and Judaism by..." which is usually ONLY used when there is little information for one article about "Jews" only or "Judaism" only in one country. Otherwise articles, when there is lots more information, articles are divided into various sub-articles. Have you read my response to you on my talk page at User talk:IZAK#Moved page ---> American Jews to Jews and Judaism in the United States which explains the criteria behind many articles about Jews and Judaism in countries. Let me know if you have, ok? IZAK 06:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
MafiaExpert: So far I have not reached the point of a "failed proposal" so quit the false comparisons. Why the Jews, Greeks and Blacks are "blessed" with crime articles about them headed as African-American organized crime and Greek-American organized crime (created by MadMax ( talk · contribs)) and this one in Category:Organized crime groups is a pure mystery at this point. Will there be an entry of "xyz-American organized crime" for every one of the approximately 150 ethnicities in Category:Ethnic groups in the United States? (I can't wait for Arab-American organized crime; Polish American organized crime; German American organized crime; Irish American organized crime; Native American organized crime ad infinitum ad nauseum --that should be a lot of fun...) So if only three ethnic groups have been targeted with such article headings, then there is nothing wrong in going to the Wikiprojects and pages that deal with those three suspiciously chosen groups and ask them for their feedback. I did this openly and there is no other way to do it as it effects them as much as it does American Jews. So much for your red herring. As for the Usage of "Jewish American" as I have stated and I will repeat it, and I hope you can see the point without jumping up and making false accuations yet again: If one says that Italian Americans are involved in the Mafia that is a negative statement (even open to WP:LIBEL) whereas if one says that Italian Americans are good cooks that is a positive statement. So not all usages of the term Italian Americans aer equal. Similarly with Jewish Americans, there is nothing wrong with that term and that is not the point of my objections. The problem is that by the laws that govern (a) the English language, (b) logic, and (c) morality (but let's not worry about morality too much, right?) the way one phrases and heads topics is crucial to it MEANING, IMPLICATIONS, and USAGES. Thus the use of the term "Jewish American" or "American Jews" is fine, but to then create an English run-on phrase such as "Jewish-American organized crime" has a possible MEANING and IMPLICATION that all Jewish Americans run or are somehow or other connected to something very negative - "organized crime." You have rejected the input and consensus of other editors that I have noted above and you have reverted the article arbitrarily. IZAK 06:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Deleted external link to www.thebirdman.com, an extremist, white supremacist hate site. -- Steven J. Anderson 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If I've offended you, I apologize. However, I'm not sure how I'm being disruptive. If I've missed something obvious in the article, I would certainly want to know if I'd made a mistake. I hope you'll note, I did refrain from restoring the article to discuss the issue. MadMax 05:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Um MadMax: The home page of that site is this (see bottom and click on "Return to Home Page"): When Victims Rule: A Critique of Jewish Pre-Eminance in America which seems pretty clear as to what it's goals are...shall I say more? IZAK 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
First, I never denied that I originally added that particular link and as I pointed out earlier the specific webpage contained no noticable statement of anti-semitism (in fact Albert Fried's "The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America" is one of several sources cited in the article). If you notice prior discussions on this talk page, I made no objections in similar cases once the subject was discussed. I did not defend these sites when these questions were raised and nor did I oppose their removal once these were pointed out. In fact, going over the article by William Pierce, which cited referenced by the FBI among others, it was my opinion that it was not a relevent source as it related to organized crime in the U.S. As I've mentioned earlier, those discussions can be viewed on this talk page if you care to re read them.
Its very easy to remove an external link for various reasons, however while this may be in violation of good faith, refering to a website as a hate site is a serious accusation without proof. Even your above statement implies I have made anti-semitic statements despite the fact that you've no knowledge of my own ethnic or religious background. If I were to go onto any other article on Wikipedia such as George Bush and remove an external link with the same reason you gave, I'm assuming most editors would at the very least question me nevermind ask me for proof. MadMax 11:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
On a slightly less contentious note, I think this article could use a little information on Detroit's notorious Purple Gang. I linked it in "See also." Those guys ruled the illegal traffic of booze across the Detroit River from Canada into the U.S. Nobody messed with them, not even Capone. Now, there were some tough Jews. -- Steven J. Anderson 20:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't get what's wrong with Jewish-American organized crime. Jewish Americans criminals were (and still are) involved in organized crime (fact), just like any other ethnicity. Jewish Americans did form their own gangs that were predominantly Jewish, being how in the 19th and early 20th centuries Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and other places formed ethnic enclaves in the ghettos. This is also a fact. Jewish American organized crime does not imply some sort of huge international Jewish conspiracy as claimed by jewwatch.com and other places. It just means organized crime that is Jewish-American in it's nature. I can't think of a more PC term to describe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicknackrussian ( talk • contribs)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS NOTHING BUT ETHNIC SLANDER AND APOLOGIA OF RIGHT-WING ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. IT MUST BE SPEEDILY DELETED TO STOP RACIST BIGOTRY.
IMAGINE SOME NEONAZI MILITANT READS THIS PAGE AND STARTS BOMBING SYNAGOGUES OR SOMETHING. WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE? WIKIPEDIA MUST TAKE ITS STAND AGAINST ANTI-SEMITIC PHANTASIES. BARELY A HANDFUL OF JEWS HAS NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN ORGANIZED CRIME ACTIVITIES IN AMERICA AND GLOBALY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 ( talk) 12:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
You're kidding me. First of this article should be renamed to jewish mafia. Just as the Russian Mafia and Italian mafia are named "mafia" and not oranized crime. The history aired Histories Mysteries about 5 points gangs and says it is "The jewish mafia". Damn history channel and their anti semetic programs. GET THEM ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGEUE!!!!!! How absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.223.101 ( talk) 21:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
From my understanding Jewish-American organized crime seems to be a euphemism in comparision to Irish mob "Mafia" for Italians and jews are crafty and write Jewish American organized crime. THEY'RE ALL MAFIAS! Irish Mafia Jewish Mafia Italian mafia/mobs/etc....
Links to be avoided Links to blogs, personal web pages and fansites
Evenmoremotor ( talk) 16:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)Evenmoremotor
What's the significance of Frank Rosenthal with Frank Sinatra on the Frank Rosenthal Show? Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
In the After World War II section, we have: Jewish-American organized crime derived from dislocation and poverty, where language and custom made the community vulnerable to undesirables, the sort of thing that fosters criminality among any other ethnicity in a similar situation. Do we have any evidence for this? The reference that was recently added, Christopher Adamson's "Defensive localism in white and black: a comparative history of European-American and African-American youth gangs" [5], deals primarily with youth gangs, rather than adult criminal organizations, and contrasts black and white gangs, rather than positing a universal cause of criminality. If I had to make a guess, I would say that dislocation from the old communities and their institutions, and a historical reluctance to turn in fellow Jews to civil authorities might have played a bigger role than did poverty, but that is just a guess. I don't think the Adamson article sheds much light on this. Peter Chastain ( talk) 11:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
{Jewish American organized crime is part of an entire literature, particularly in the United States, on "tough Jews."}
The whole paragraph that starts with this phrase makes no sence. I rewrote it myself (my rewrite was removed). So someone put a lot of periods in this wacky paragraph. It still makes no sence. What are you trying to say? That there is a lot of literature about Jewish Americans who are 'paticularly in the United States' and are tough? Comon lets get some consensus since the author of this wonderful prose reverts any attempt to change it. Meishern ( talk) 11:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Why isnt it (this article) called Jewish Mafia? Italian Mafia, Jewish Mafia.... It's (the italian mafia article) not Italian organized crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.254.81 ( talk) 18:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Alright so out of 100 arrests 16% were Jews. Who were the other 84%? 30% Italians, 40% Irish? If 16% of all arrestees being Jews is considered a crime way, what would 40% of all arrestees being Irish should be considered? a crime tsunami? How about the present day (2010) murder arrest statics in New York: 64.9% are black, 27.2% are hispanic, 7.3% are white. Does that mean that whites are causing a crime wave? (ref http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/09/18/2008-09-18_blacks_latinos_lead_crime_stats__nypd-2.html) 64.9% is a crime wave. 16% is definitely not. I think the whole sentence should be removed since its POV and biased. Meishern ( talk) 03:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is not neutral. Too much personal "insight"...this isn't supposed to be your take on the jewish mafia. Please just give the information and not your lame analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.69.215 ( talk) 00:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Why are people who don't want Jewish immigration because of all the Jewish mobster crime it brings in called anti-Semitic in this article? Do Italians whine constantly about how nobody loves them and that people are bigots because Italian immigrants are criticized for something negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.187.97 ( talk) 23:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
This whole article is vile antisemitism. 84.3.160.86 ( talk) 18:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
What exactly does a Jewish fraternity committing vandalism have to do with Jewish-American organized crime? I think that the section should be removed-- Donovan Ellis ( talk) 23:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I was redirected here from Russian chanson in which reads "These songs are often set in the city of Odessa, where the Jewish Mafia was characterized as being particularly cheerful and colorful". It seems a shame then that this article stands in place of a dedicated one for Jewish Mafia.
Is there an easy way to see what [[Jewish Mafia]] might have looked like when it was linked from Russian chanson? Leboite ( talk) 10:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
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As the title says, Eastman wasn't Jewish, he was probably of English descent as stated in multiple sources 37.208.32.56 ( talk) 19:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): P!neapp13 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: 34adel.
— Assignment last updated by Ruby2017 ( talk) 19:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)