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Notice: This is a daughter article of Jesus Christ - It was taken from the mother page made to alleviate the size of the older article. WhisperToMe 07:19, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This page looks as ugly as sin on my screen because the timeline of JC starts just to the left rather than just underneath the initial picture/portrait. This creates a 3 column effect... one column of main text, one column of timeline and one column of great empty white space... all roughly equal in size. Do others have the same problem? Could the fancy HTML code be altered to fill the screen like all other pages. (My screen resolution is 1280x1024) Pete 12:03, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven."
I remember reading that this quote contains a translation/transcription error. The original is said to read: "It is easier for a cable to pass through the eye of a needle...", which makes more sense ("cable" is in the nautical sense, i.e., thick rope (no cable TV B.C., right? :-)). Does anybody know anything about this?
Moved from Village Pump 28th November 2003
Hmm. I don't honestly know whether to laugh or lament...
Check out this example of a good thing gone horribly wrong. I'm almost tempted to reccomend it stay as is, so we can all point it and say: "Don't do this; they will only laugh at you." -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 08:43, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)
Most of the ones in "Others" have just a Christian connection to Jesus, not direct Jesus-related, e.g., A Plea for Captain John Brown, Midwest Christian Outreach, Revised Standard Version, Tomb, Torah, Veil, Thirteen, Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, Theology, Seventh-day Adventist Church, The supernatural in monotheistic religions, and of course, there's Superman (it's actually listed there). -- Menchi 12:01, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
For me; what it comes down to is this: a See also listing should not be a comprehensive listing of backlinks. It just isn't useful. There are plenty enough links in the articles themselves, most of the time. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 14:58, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I think this article looks great. Not perfect, but in the top 5% of our articles. I hope we don't butcher it too badly (a camel is a horse designed by a committee), or waste too much time that would be far better spent in bringing the other 95% up to this standard. Andrewa 20:41, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hate to rain on a parade, especially on a subject that raises such strength of feeling with people, but is the title itself not flawed? "Christ" is itself a Greek equivalent for Messiah and thus assumes the thesis under discussion, thereby failing NPOV. Could use just "Jesus" perhaps, most people recognize whom the name refers to. Chris Rodgers 11:59, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've been meaning to say something about this for some time. I'm thinking that the article Jesus Christ might arguably contain the "Christ" title, because the appellation "Christ" has taken on a life of its own as a name apart from its latin meaning. (Although I think it borders on POV.) But on this page, where the subject of the article is whether Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, I think we need a title change, perhaps to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. COGDEN 05:13, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Use the most common used term for the title? JDR 06:59, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would go for Jesus as Christ and Messiah here, and Jesus or Jesus of Nazareth for the other article, with Jesus Christ redirecting to that other article. -- Henrygb 15:36, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This section will be as hard to write as Christianity because there are so many various christological views.
Christology is important, because Christians who belive in the Trinity . . .
Like I said, hard to write
Nice job, Wesley. If you can flesh it out and make it more substantial, I won't wine about it. I cast my lot with you, if you can bear this cross . . . Ed Poor getting silly, so it's time to sign off.
"A number of early Christians believed that Jesus was not divine, but was simply the human Messiah promised in the Old Testament. The inclusion of the genealogies of Jesus Christ at Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 are sometimes explained by this belief. An alternative explanation is that they were in opposition to Gnostic Christian doctrines that Jesus Christ only had the illusion of a human body and, thus, no human ancestry at all. This view was opposed by church leaders such as Paul, and eventually came to be held only by small, marginal sects such as the Ebionites and (according to Jerome) the Nazarenes."
I think the last sentence here should relate to the first sentence and not the one it follows (i.e. the Nazarenes and Ebionites believed Jesus was human and not an illusion). Can someone who knows more reorder / rephrase to make things more clear? DopefishJustin 22:44, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)
In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
This section should be shortened with the link to the main article at Christology. Any improvements or expansions needed could be made there. Comments? Wesley 20:51, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What is this all about?
In many sects of? Why aren't we simply stating that the Book of Mormon says it? Are we implying that some sects of Mormonism (the Latter Day Saint Movement) don't accept the Book of Mormon? It sounds very double-speakish and confusing. Tom - Talk 07:14, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
I happen to be a Christian, and accept the trinitarian view of God.........but whats with all this "three white persons" stuff?? I have no idea (nor do I care!) whether God is White Black Yellow or Sky Blue Pink with Yellow dots on! I think that section is bordering on a NPOV violation, unless you can provide some evidence for what you're saying. 80.177.152.156
Since this article and Jesus in the Christian Bible otherwise known as New Testament view on Jesus' life follow very much the same format is there any reason to keep them both? I have also proposed that the New Testament view on Jesus' life be merged with Historical Jesus as again they follow a similar chronological order of his life using the new testament for the vast majority of the material.
I'm not out to step on doctrinal toes but at the moment it is hard to find definitive data and much of what there is is duplicated so the chance for error and the editorial work required to keep them in sync are high. SOPHIA 10:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the title " Christ" only makes sense in the context of Christianity, is there any reason not to rename this article to "Jesus Christ," rename Historical Jesus to "Jesus of Nazareth," and keep the main article at Jesus? Arch O. La Talk TCF 09:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the Christian views of Jesus article doing with a section discussing Jewish objections and a final sentence about the Muslim view? That whole section seems really off-topic, why is it in there? Homestarmy 14:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've been trying to promote my "summarize, but do not duplicate" philosophy. I've met with limited success. Arch O. La Talk TCF 04:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that the same discussion has been held on the Jewish article. Arch O. La Talk TCF 02:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Try googling that phrase and see what the results say. I do not think it is mere unsources speculation that most Jews (then and now) have a different concept of messiah than the Christian concept. And its obvious that the Jews (then in now) (with a small acception for Ebionites and messianic Jews) rejected Jesus as the Jewish messiah. If the sentence in question is so controversial, could anyone please make a case here why it needs to be striken completely? -- Andrew c 01:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
If you have a source please provide it. The earlier Jewish writings discussing the rejection of Jesus date hundreds of years later and don't crystalize until over 1000 years later. And, of course, this topic is Christian views of Jesus. There is an article on Jewish views of Jesus. Where do you feel this statement should belong? Bbagot 07:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot
The header is problematic. The MOS style only talks about having an initial first line for "see also" in regards to topics with similar names (or for disambig purposes, see this). In addition, Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates may be applicable. While strictly not a temlplate, it doesn't seem like policy to inform the reader of a warning or disclaimer about the content of the article. If anything, the best replace for that would be a disputed or controversial tag (see bottom of template:disputed). In regards to the bigger issue of whether to remove this sentence or not. It is a tought call. I don't like the idea of POV-fork articles that only allow one view to be shown in them. It goes again NPOV and wikipedia in general. On the other hand, how else are we going to break down all the different views on Jesus? I believe the best solution is the have small 2-4 sentence sections on the other POVs in each article, linking to the others as a template:main tag. Therefore we aren't focusing too much on the other POV, but we aren't censoring them on pricipal either. But that is just my opinion, I would love to hear what others think (if anyone else is watching this page).-- Andrew c 01:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Comparing this article to its counterpart articles, Judaism's view of Jesus and Jesus (prophet in Islam), a few problem areas stand out to me that perhaps might be helpful to mention. The other two articles are specifically focused on addressing the perspectives of those religions concerning Jesus' nature and role. This article, however, seems more unfocused. Maybe one of the problems is that there actually already exists three articles that describe Christianity's view on Jesus' nature and role, namely Christology, Christ, and Messiah. It doesn't leave much left for this article to say that isn't already said. Also, this article is missing reliable sources that clearly describe the Christian view of Jesus. This is something the other two (Jewish and Muslim) articles do much better, but there's no citations in this article. I only have a minute here, so I'll come back to discuss more later, these are just my first observations. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know there was such a thing as Islamic Christology! Live and learn.
The Jesus article oversimplifies a bit. Christian Christology is a subset of the Christian views of Jesus. Christology is the theological view of the nature of Jesus himself. It answers the question, "What does it mean that Jesus is Christ?" Christian views of Jesus also include views of Jesus' life and teachings, what they mean, and how they relate to Mosaic law; the prophecies that Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled, and those that remain to be fulfilled at the Second Coming; why it was necessary that Jesus suffer and die, and what his ressurection accomplished. So, you might want to merge Christian Christology into this article, and also explore here the other aspects of Christian views of Jesus. What SOPHIA learned of Islamic Christology could be merged into the Isa article (or whatever name that article goes by these days). Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 19:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Redirect to Christology or Jesus, either works for me. Jesus is mostly about the Christian view of Jesus anyway. Jayjg (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
See Also -- Alphabetized listing
Andrew, I had thought that the bottom section of See Also would be where links would go that are more off topic. If alphabetized is the usual format then I have no problem with that, but I would like to you be consistent and alphabetize that section in Jewish views of Jesus as well and possibly the Islamic. This would seem to make sense. Bbagot 15:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot
So can we set out some goals for this article? Can we reach consensus on if we want to merge this article, and if so, where? I feel the whole biography section needs to be cut because it is just repeating content found in other articles. What does everyone think?-- Andrew c 00:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll help if you like Archie - it's been too long since we last worked together. I'll read through and post some ideas a bit later. Sophia 16:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I have some ideas, ill get to it tomorow, God willing... -- Striver 02:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Omg, i give upp! This is a complete mess!
I vote for a total overhaul and reorganization of this whole mess, there is no organization here, just a bunch of loosly related articles that nobody cares to have a overview over. I am starting some suggestions: Talk:Christian views of Jesus/Jesus. -- Striver 18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I condensed the life section as part of my project to have 1 NT bio of Jesus on wikipedia (instead of 3). I kept in the parts that seemed to be more on topic, but removed most of the plot summary. However, this article is still a mess. I like Arch's outline a lot, but it goes to show that this topic has a dozen or spinout articles, which creates a problem. Should this just be like an index page for the spinout articles, with maybe a condenses paragraph or two on each topic? I feel that could work.-- Andrew c 23:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, first person (I, we, our, etc) is not to be used on wikipedia per the Manual of Style Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Avoid self-referential pronouns. Second of all, you do not capitlize pronouns refering to deities (He, Himself, etc) also per the MoS, Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines, and their adherents. Emoticons and personal commentary only belongs on talk pages, never in the main article space. Wikipedia follows what is called neutral point of view, which means that all relevent points of view are given with due weight, as long as the claims are cited per WP:V using reliable sources. Wikipedia cannot say who is or isn't a "True Christian", nor say which interpretation of scripture is correct. All we can say is that a number of interpretations exist and "X holds Y belief" while "A holds B belief". Saying things like Most people who call themselves "Christians" don't believe everything in the Bible and refuse to believe the main points above. sounds like original research, clearly needs a citations, and at best needs to be qualified with who holds that opinion. This article is not the place to push a personal POV of what makes up a True Christian. We must include that Catholic POV, Protestant, JW, Mormon, conservative, liberal, etc where applicable (and keep in mind this article is about Christian views of Jesus, not about Christianity which has its own article). Things like showing us the authority here is genuine authority from above and previously authorized; revealing to us God's actual involvement in His leadership in spiritual authority exercised by His disciples should clearly be avoided for many of the above stated reasons. This is an encyclopedia, not a pulpit. If there are any questions about wikipedia policy, or concerns over the content of this article or my reverts, please feel free to talk things out here. -- Andrew c 14:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC) P.S., when editing, try to avoid making a number of small edits in a row. It is hard to keep track of things in the history, and it puts unneeded stress on the server. In the future, try to compress all your edits into only a few edits, instead of ~50 in a row. Thanks.-- Andrew c 14:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Andrew for taking the time to explain the rules, but it's of no consequence now. It has been clearly shown to me that Christian views under "Christian Views" is not going to be allowed because anything that disagrees with the blasphemous deceit that was posted is not going to be allowed under one guise or another. It's not worth my time to play all the games required to get genuine Christian views approved only to strain the censor's brain to find some excuse to disallow it. ... but, again, thanks for your efforts in explaining.-- Gary
Just to make sure nobody missed it, i proposed this-- Striver 21:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This article and the main Jesus article give scant attention to Satan. Jesus came to undo the works of Satan. The first (or one of the first) prophecies in the Bible (about the serpent and the son of Eve) refers to Jesus and Satan fighting. The world's going to end with Jesus going toe-to-toe with Satan. Satan deserves at least a passing mention. I'm happy to put something in this article (and maybe the Jesus article as well). Jonathan Tweet 15:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Recently, there was an attempt to upgrade the section in the article on Jesus called "Christian views of Jesus". In that process, the woeful state of this article was recognized. There were statements made that this article should receive attention, but none was given, and it limped on in its inadequate state. I took it upon myself to revamp this article, working on it on my project page. Since there was little activity here (which should be no surprise) this was done unilaterally. I hope that others will be inspired to contribute more to views which I am not able to well describe, but I am sure this overhaul is an upgrade. It concerns only the first part of the article, and does not take up the issued of Jesus's live, and views therein. For this reason, it actually replaced little of what was in the article, and represents new, needed material, without undoing the content of before. The second half of the overhaul, of course, is that on Jesus' life, which will come later. This section focused more on Christology and the like. PS, I archived the old talk, since it doesn't seem relevant to the new material, obviously. Lostcaesar 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
This passage "In antiquity, and again following the Reformation until today, differing views existed concerning the Godhead from those of Trinitarians and the related traditional Christology" is not correct. Throughout the history of the Church there have been groups who denied part of the "traditional Christology". This passage makes it sounds like these ideas miraculously reappeared during the Reformation. Wjhonson 01:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I would also point out that the Lombards and Vandals were Arian well into the early Middle Ages, which wouldn't be called "antiquity". In fact, at one point the Arians were the dominant group in the Church. Wjhonson 02:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd say there is some overlap. Under the old classification, one would locate the middle ages beginning in 476, which would precede the end of Arianism. More recent scholarship talks less of a fall of the Roman Empire and more of a "transformation of the Roman world", which covers the whole of the barbarian invasions, of whom the Lombards were the last. Often the beginning of a medieval period is a matter of local circumstances — it started earlier in England than Italy, for example. Indeed the Arianism of the Lombards was in many ways the last gasp of antiquity in the West. I'd say by Charlemagne's coronation we are undisputedly medieval. Before that, like I said, splitting hairs. But it is certainly fair to call them Late Antique groups that lasted into the Early Medieval period, and I wont argue that at all. Lostcaesar 02:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, though its streaching my knowledge of obscure groups, I thought the Paulicianism were Trinitarians; heretics, but Trinitarians. Could be wrong though. Lostcaesar 02:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this phrasing is weird. Honest truth is redundent, and if a quote should at least be quoted. But I find no need to clarify "historically true" with this i.e. business, especially when taking about the predominate Christian view, but using the words found in a Catholic document. I really think the sentence is fine without the second clause.-- Andrew c 02:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
An anon editor blanked the info about the LDS views on the resurrection. You can see the edit in question [2]. Without an explanation, and as the only edit from the IP 69.250.146.41, I assumed it was random. If I was wrong, revert. Pastordavid 00:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article is sadly, sadly lost in the woods. I do not even know where to start my complaints, there are so many. The entire article is a mish-mash of randomly picked items, not representative at all. I think the sections on Miracles and Legacy epitomize the sad state of this wannabe article. The Miracles section lists 9 randomly picked miracles, in a haphazard order (Cana comes towards the end!) and some are unclear, e.g. Curing a sick child who was near death without links, etc. The Legacy section has one terse paragraph without a single WP:Secondary source, then a much larger section on the Book of Mormon. How does that describe the "Legacy of Jesus" in Christianity, when just one paragraph sans secondary references is used, and then the views of just one denomination? Kyrie Eleison, Lord have mercy! This article really needs a rewrite. I do not have time to rewrite it now, but will flag it as such. Help from knowledgeable editors will be appreciated.... Kyrie Eleison... History2007 ( talk) 20:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
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@ The New Classic and Hazhk: I still don't think this is a good image for the lead. Yes, it does represent the ascension of Jesus, but Blake's style is rather atypical. The painting by Vannini is far more recognizable as something typical, and its very well written caption recounts an important Christian belief about Jesus. The Blake image has been removed (at least) twice, and I support removing it once again. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
“Latter Day Saints teach that Jesus is the result of a physical union between God the Father and Mary.”
Not quite, and in fact, this is very offensive and quite misleading. There is no footnote to this paragraph, and I move it be struck out. I would do it myself (as I have done elsewhere), but I don’t want to get into a edit fight with someone ignorant and persistent, because to some (or many) the Latter-day Movement itself is controversial.
This was a birth through a virgin (no intercourse), though, as with many other Christian sects, Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, which means (in the LDS) that while God the Father is the father, the method of the seed transmission is not stated, and is extremely unlikely to be through what we call introitus, as this would leave Mary __NOT_ a virgin, and would not be a virgin birth. There’s not more in the Bible than what Gabriel tells her.
Bottom line: Mary remained a virgin until she had relations with her husband, Joseph. Bseegmiller ( talk) 02:01, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm struck by the lack of discussion of Jesus' ongoing presence in both this article and Christology. Many Christians believe in and/or experience Jesus as present with them or as an active agent in the world at the current time. I imagine it would be appropriate to include Jesus' presence in the eucharist, his presence in the hungry, strangers, the naked, the sick, and prisoners, and especially his presence in prayer. Of course, we'll need to find some sources on this topic to guide our writing, but I wanted to point out what seemed to me as an obvious lack. Daask ( talk) 11:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree largely with you, and have reflected upon this topic a great deal. It boils down to, in my view, that for those who follow Christ, the gifts of the Spirit and the witness of Jesus as Savior are present, but it is extremely difficult to articulate in words that might pass Wikipedia’s guidelines. C.S. Lewis does an excellent job. Bseegmiller ( talk) 02:05, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
There is currently an open requested move on Talk:Christ to move the page from its current name to Christ (title). Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 17:03, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I think it is fine as it is. Was Jesus not his name?! The Messiah is coming ( talk) 12:26, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Added more detail wording and links. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 12:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
They weren't both FULLY human because God is holy and much higher then any human. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 23:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Pls don't remove my other edits. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 23:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Spiritual or religious events are capitalized only when referring to proper names of specific incidents or periods (the Great Flood and the Exodus; but Ancient Egyptian myths about the Nile's annual flooding, and an exodus of refugees from Soviet religious persecution). Therefore, Jesus's Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension must be capitalized. Elizium23 ( talk) 20:25, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Whiteguru ( talk · contribs) 19:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Starts GA Review; the review will follow the same sections of the Article. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 19:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
It is noted that two sections of the article were removed during the review as OR. If nominators or editors ( TSventon) could refrain from updating this particular article that I am reviewing until it is complete, I would appreciate it that there are no edit conflicts. Please address any concerns in below the GA Review. Thank you. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 07:56, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
OK
Those Christian groups or denominations which are committed to what is considered as biblically orthodox Christian belief nearly all agree that Jesus:
The final ministry in Jerusalem is sometimes called the Passion Week and begins with the Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem.[82] The gospels provide more details about the final ministry than the other periods, devoting about one third of their text to the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem.[83].
Use of the term Passion Week is uncommon with respect to the last week in Jesus' life; sentence commences with one term and ends with another and links to it. Consistency would indicate Holy Week is the preferred term.
The question of why aren't all of Jesus' miracles included is an interesting question to conclude this section with. I am not altogether enamoured of citing the Catholic Encyclopaedia (with no direct reference) serves the cause of winding up this section. The Catholic Church, whatever it says about Scripture and Tradition, does not own Jesus nor his miracles. Consider.
It is noted there is no reference to Jesus in Apocrypha, in particular the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, nor other apocrypha.
Jesus is not the son of God , he is the servent and messenger of Allah . 103.28.133.120 ( talk) 10:29, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Notice: This is a daughter article of Jesus Christ - It was taken from the mother page made to alleviate the size of the older article. WhisperToMe 07:19, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This page looks as ugly as sin on my screen because the timeline of JC starts just to the left rather than just underneath the initial picture/portrait. This creates a 3 column effect... one column of main text, one column of timeline and one column of great empty white space... all roughly equal in size. Do others have the same problem? Could the fancy HTML code be altered to fill the screen like all other pages. (My screen resolution is 1280x1024) Pete 12:03, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven."
I remember reading that this quote contains a translation/transcription error. The original is said to read: "It is easier for a cable to pass through the eye of a needle...", which makes more sense ("cable" is in the nautical sense, i.e., thick rope (no cable TV B.C., right? :-)). Does anybody know anything about this?
Moved from Village Pump 28th November 2003
Hmm. I don't honestly know whether to laugh or lament...
Check out this example of a good thing gone horribly wrong. I'm almost tempted to reccomend it stay as is, so we can all point it and say: "Don't do this; they will only laugh at you." -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 08:43, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)
Most of the ones in "Others" have just a Christian connection to Jesus, not direct Jesus-related, e.g., A Plea for Captain John Brown, Midwest Christian Outreach, Revised Standard Version, Tomb, Torah, Veil, Thirteen, Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, Theology, Seventh-day Adventist Church, The supernatural in monotheistic religions, and of course, there's Superman (it's actually listed there). -- Menchi 12:01, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
For me; what it comes down to is this: a See also listing should not be a comprehensive listing of backlinks. It just isn't useful. There are plenty enough links in the articles themselves, most of the time. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 14:58, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)
Personally, I think this article looks great. Not perfect, but in the top 5% of our articles. I hope we don't butcher it too badly (a camel is a horse designed by a committee), or waste too much time that would be far better spent in bringing the other 95% up to this standard. Andrewa 20:41, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hate to rain on a parade, especially on a subject that raises such strength of feeling with people, but is the title itself not flawed? "Christ" is itself a Greek equivalent for Messiah and thus assumes the thesis under discussion, thereby failing NPOV. Could use just "Jesus" perhaps, most people recognize whom the name refers to. Chris Rodgers 11:59, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've been meaning to say something about this for some time. I'm thinking that the article Jesus Christ might arguably contain the "Christ" title, because the appellation "Christ" has taken on a life of its own as a name apart from its latin meaning. (Although I think it borders on POV.) But on this page, where the subject of the article is whether Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, I think we need a title change, perhaps to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. COGDEN 05:13, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Use the most common used term for the title? JDR 06:59, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would go for Jesus as Christ and Messiah here, and Jesus or Jesus of Nazareth for the other article, with Jesus Christ redirecting to that other article. -- Henrygb 15:36, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This section will be as hard to write as Christianity because there are so many various christological views.
Christology is important, because Christians who belive in the Trinity . . .
Like I said, hard to write
Nice job, Wesley. If you can flesh it out and make it more substantial, I won't wine about it. I cast my lot with you, if you can bear this cross . . . Ed Poor getting silly, so it's time to sign off.
"A number of early Christians believed that Jesus was not divine, but was simply the human Messiah promised in the Old Testament. The inclusion of the genealogies of Jesus Christ at Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 are sometimes explained by this belief. An alternative explanation is that they were in opposition to Gnostic Christian doctrines that Jesus Christ only had the illusion of a human body and, thus, no human ancestry at all. This view was opposed by church leaders such as Paul, and eventually came to be held only by small, marginal sects such as the Ebionites and (according to Jerome) the Nazarenes."
I think the last sentence here should relate to the first sentence and not the one it follows (i.e. the Nazarenes and Ebionites believed Jesus was human and not an illusion). Can someone who knows more reorder / rephrase to make things more clear? DopefishJustin 22:44, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)
In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
This section should be shortened with the link to the main article at Christology. Any improvements or expansions needed could be made there. Comments? Wesley 20:51, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What is this all about?
In many sects of? Why aren't we simply stating that the Book of Mormon says it? Are we implying that some sects of Mormonism (the Latter Day Saint Movement) don't accept the Book of Mormon? It sounds very double-speakish and confusing. Tom - Talk 07:14, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
I happen to be a Christian, and accept the trinitarian view of God.........but whats with all this "three white persons" stuff?? I have no idea (nor do I care!) whether God is White Black Yellow or Sky Blue Pink with Yellow dots on! I think that section is bordering on a NPOV violation, unless you can provide some evidence for what you're saying. 80.177.152.156
Since this article and Jesus in the Christian Bible otherwise known as New Testament view on Jesus' life follow very much the same format is there any reason to keep them both? I have also proposed that the New Testament view on Jesus' life be merged with Historical Jesus as again they follow a similar chronological order of his life using the new testament for the vast majority of the material.
I'm not out to step on doctrinal toes but at the moment it is hard to find definitive data and much of what there is is duplicated so the chance for error and the editorial work required to keep them in sync are high. SOPHIA 10:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the title " Christ" only makes sense in the context of Christianity, is there any reason not to rename this article to "Jesus Christ," rename Historical Jesus to "Jesus of Nazareth," and keep the main article at Jesus? Arch O. La Talk TCF 09:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the Christian views of Jesus article doing with a section discussing Jewish objections and a final sentence about the Muslim view? That whole section seems really off-topic, why is it in there? Homestarmy 14:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've been trying to promote my "summarize, but do not duplicate" philosophy. I've met with limited success. Arch O. La Talk TCF 04:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that the same discussion has been held on the Jewish article. Arch O. La Talk TCF 02:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Try googling that phrase and see what the results say. I do not think it is mere unsources speculation that most Jews (then and now) have a different concept of messiah than the Christian concept. And its obvious that the Jews (then in now) (with a small acception for Ebionites and messianic Jews) rejected Jesus as the Jewish messiah. If the sentence in question is so controversial, could anyone please make a case here why it needs to be striken completely? -- Andrew c 01:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
If you have a source please provide it. The earlier Jewish writings discussing the rejection of Jesus date hundreds of years later and don't crystalize until over 1000 years later. And, of course, this topic is Christian views of Jesus. There is an article on Jewish views of Jesus. Where do you feel this statement should belong? Bbagot 07:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot
The header is problematic. The MOS style only talks about having an initial first line for "see also" in regards to topics with similar names (or for disambig purposes, see this). In addition, Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates may be applicable. While strictly not a temlplate, it doesn't seem like policy to inform the reader of a warning or disclaimer about the content of the article. If anything, the best replace for that would be a disputed or controversial tag (see bottom of template:disputed). In regards to the bigger issue of whether to remove this sentence or not. It is a tought call. I don't like the idea of POV-fork articles that only allow one view to be shown in them. It goes again NPOV and wikipedia in general. On the other hand, how else are we going to break down all the different views on Jesus? I believe the best solution is the have small 2-4 sentence sections on the other POVs in each article, linking to the others as a template:main tag. Therefore we aren't focusing too much on the other POV, but we aren't censoring them on pricipal either. But that is just my opinion, I would love to hear what others think (if anyone else is watching this page).-- Andrew c 01:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Comparing this article to its counterpart articles, Judaism's view of Jesus and Jesus (prophet in Islam), a few problem areas stand out to me that perhaps might be helpful to mention. The other two articles are specifically focused on addressing the perspectives of those religions concerning Jesus' nature and role. This article, however, seems more unfocused. Maybe one of the problems is that there actually already exists three articles that describe Christianity's view on Jesus' nature and role, namely Christology, Christ, and Messiah. It doesn't leave much left for this article to say that isn't already said. Also, this article is missing reliable sources that clearly describe the Christian view of Jesus. This is something the other two (Jewish and Muslim) articles do much better, but there's no citations in this article. I only have a minute here, so I'll come back to discuss more later, these are just my first observations. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know there was such a thing as Islamic Christology! Live and learn.
The Jesus article oversimplifies a bit. Christian Christology is a subset of the Christian views of Jesus. Christology is the theological view of the nature of Jesus himself. It answers the question, "What does it mean that Jesus is Christ?" Christian views of Jesus also include views of Jesus' life and teachings, what they mean, and how they relate to Mosaic law; the prophecies that Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled, and those that remain to be fulfilled at the Second Coming; why it was necessary that Jesus suffer and die, and what his ressurection accomplished. So, you might want to merge Christian Christology into this article, and also explore here the other aspects of Christian views of Jesus. What SOPHIA learned of Islamic Christology could be merged into the Isa article (or whatever name that article goes by these days). Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 19:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Redirect to Christology or Jesus, either works for me. Jesus is mostly about the Christian view of Jesus anyway. Jayjg (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
See Also -- Alphabetized listing
Andrew, I had thought that the bottom section of See Also would be where links would go that are more off topic. If alphabetized is the usual format then I have no problem with that, but I would like to you be consistent and alphabetize that section in Jewish views of Jesus as well and possibly the Islamic. This would seem to make sense. Bbagot 15:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot
So can we set out some goals for this article? Can we reach consensus on if we want to merge this article, and if so, where? I feel the whole biography section needs to be cut because it is just repeating content found in other articles. What does everyone think?-- Andrew c 00:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll help if you like Archie - it's been too long since we last worked together. I'll read through and post some ideas a bit later. Sophia 16:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I have some ideas, ill get to it tomorow, God willing... -- Striver 02:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Omg, i give upp! This is a complete mess!
I vote for a total overhaul and reorganization of this whole mess, there is no organization here, just a bunch of loosly related articles that nobody cares to have a overview over. I am starting some suggestions: Talk:Christian views of Jesus/Jesus. -- Striver 18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I condensed the life section as part of my project to have 1 NT bio of Jesus on wikipedia (instead of 3). I kept in the parts that seemed to be more on topic, but removed most of the plot summary. However, this article is still a mess. I like Arch's outline a lot, but it goes to show that this topic has a dozen or spinout articles, which creates a problem. Should this just be like an index page for the spinout articles, with maybe a condenses paragraph or two on each topic? I feel that could work.-- Andrew c 23:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, first person (I, we, our, etc) is not to be used on wikipedia per the Manual of Style Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Avoid self-referential pronouns. Second of all, you do not capitlize pronouns refering to deities (He, Himself, etc) also per the MoS, Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines, and their adherents. Emoticons and personal commentary only belongs on talk pages, never in the main article space. Wikipedia follows what is called neutral point of view, which means that all relevent points of view are given with due weight, as long as the claims are cited per WP:V using reliable sources. Wikipedia cannot say who is or isn't a "True Christian", nor say which interpretation of scripture is correct. All we can say is that a number of interpretations exist and "X holds Y belief" while "A holds B belief". Saying things like Most people who call themselves "Christians" don't believe everything in the Bible and refuse to believe the main points above. sounds like original research, clearly needs a citations, and at best needs to be qualified with who holds that opinion. This article is not the place to push a personal POV of what makes up a True Christian. We must include that Catholic POV, Protestant, JW, Mormon, conservative, liberal, etc where applicable (and keep in mind this article is about Christian views of Jesus, not about Christianity which has its own article). Things like showing us the authority here is genuine authority from above and previously authorized; revealing to us God's actual involvement in His leadership in spiritual authority exercised by His disciples should clearly be avoided for many of the above stated reasons. This is an encyclopedia, not a pulpit. If there are any questions about wikipedia policy, or concerns over the content of this article or my reverts, please feel free to talk things out here. -- Andrew c 14:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC) P.S., when editing, try to avoid making a number of small edits in a row. It is hard to keep track of things in the history, and it puts unneeded stress on the server. In the future, try to compress all your edits into only a few edits, instead of ~50 in a row. Thanks.-- Andrew c 14:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Andrew for taking the time to explain the rules, but it's of no consequence now. It has been clearly shown to me that Christian views under "Christian Views" is not going to be allowed because anything that disagrees with the blasphemous deceit that was posted is not going to be allowed under one guise or another. It's not worth my time to play all the games required to get genuine Christian views approved only to strain the censor's brain to find some excuse to disallow it. ... but, again, thanks for your efforts in explaining.-- Gary
Just to make sure nobody missed it, i proposed this-- Striver 21:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This article and the main Jesus article give scant attention to Satan. Jesus came to undo the works of Satan. The first (or one of the first) prophecies in the Bible (about the serpent and the son of Eve) refers to Jesus and Satan fighting. The world's going to end with Jesus going toe-to-toe with Satan. Satan deserves at least a passing mention. I'm happy to put something in this article (and maybe the Jesus article as well). Jonathan Tweet 15:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Recently, there was an attempt to upgrade the section in the article on Jesus called "Christian views of Jesus". In that process, the woeful state of this article was recognized. There were statements made that this article should receive attention, but none was given, and it limped on in its inadequate state. I took it upon myself to revamp this article, working on it on my project page. Since there was little activity here (which should be no surprise) this was done unilaterally. I hope that others will be inspired to contribute more to views which I am not able to well describe, but I am sure this overhaul is an upgrade. It concerns only the first part of the article, and does not take up the issued of Jesus's live, and views therein. For this reason, it actually replaced little of what was in the article, and represents new, needed material, without undoing the content of before. The second half of the overhaul, of course, is that on Jesus' life, which will come later. This section focused more on Christology and the like. PS, I archived the old talk, since it doesn't seem relevant to the new material, obviously. Lostcaesar 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
This passage "In antiquity, and again following the Reformation until today, differing views existed concerning the Godhead from those of Trinitarians and the related traditional Christology" is not correct. Throughout the history of the Church there have been groups who denied part of the "traditional Christology". This passage makes it sounds like these ideas miraculously reappeared during the Reformation. Wjhonson 01:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I would also point out that the Lombards and Vandals were Arian well into the early Middle Ages, which wouldn't be called "antiquity". In fact, at one point the Arians were the dominant group in the Church. Wjhonson 02:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd say there is some overlap. Under the old classification, one would locate the middle ages beginning in 476, which would precede the end of Arianism. More recent scholarship talks less of a fall of the Roman Empire and more of a "transformation of the Roman world", which covers the whole of the barbarian invasions, of whom the Lombards were the last. Often the beginning of a medieval period is a matter of local circumstances — it started earlier in England than Italy, for example. Indeed the Arianism of the Lombards was in many ways the last gasp of antiquity in the West. I'd say by Charlemagne's coronation we are undisputedly medieval. Before that, like I said, splitting hairs. But it is certainly fair to call them Late Antique groups that lasted into the Early Medieval period, and I wont argue that at all. Lostcaesar 02:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, though its streaching my knowledge of obscure groups, I thought the Paulicianism were Trinitarians; heretics, but Trinitarians. Could be wrong though. Lostcaesar 02:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this phrasing is weird. Honest truth is redundent, and if a quote should at least be quoted. But I find no need to clarify "historically true" with this i.e. business, especially when taking about the predominate Christian view, but using the words found in a Catholic document. I really think the sentence is fine without the second clause.-- Andrew c 02:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
An anon editor blanked the info about the LDS views on the resurrection. You can see the edit in question [2]. Without an explanation, and as the only edit from the IP 69.250.146.41, I assumed it was random. If I was wrong, revert. Pastordavid 00:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article is sadly, sadly lost in the woods. I do not even know where to start my complaints, there are so many. The entire article is a mish-mash of randomly picked items, not representative at all. I think the sections on Miracles and Legacy epitomize the sad state of this wannabe article. The Miracles section lists 9 randomly picked miracles, in a haphazard order (Cana comes towards the end!) and some are unclear, e.g. Curing a sick child who was near death without links, etc. The Legacy section has one terse paragraph without a single WP:Secondary source, then a much larger section on the Book of Mormon. How does that describe the "Legacy of Jesus" in Christianity, when just one paragraph sans secondary references is used, and then the views of just one denomination? Kyrie Eleison, Lord have mercy! This article really needs a rewrite. I do not have time to rewrite it now, but will flag it as such. Help from knowledgeable editors will be appreciated.... Kyrie Eleison... History2007 ( talk) 20:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
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@ The New Classic and Hazhk: I still don't think this is a good image for the lead. Yes, it does represent the ascension of Jesus, but Blake's style is rather atypical. The painting by Vannini is far more recognizable as something typical, and its very well written caption recounts an important Christian belief about Jesus. The Blake image has been removed (at least) twice, and I support removing it once again. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
“Latter Day Saints teach that Jesus is the result of a physical union between God the Father and Mary.”
Not quite, and in fact, this is very offensive and quite misleading. There is no footnote to this paragraph, and I move it be struck out. I would do it myself (as I have done elsewhere), but I don’t want to get into a edit fight with someone ignorant and persistent, because to some (or many) the Latter-day Movement itself is controversial.
This was a birth through a virgin (no intercourse), though, as with many other Christian sects, Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, which means (in the LDS) that while God the Father is the father, the method of the seed transmission is not stated, and is extremely unlikely to be through what we call introitus, as this would leave Mary __NOT_ a virgin, and would not be a virgin birth. There’s not more in the Bible than what Gabriel tells her.
Bottom line: Mary remained a virgin until she had relations with her husband, Joseph. Bseegmiller ( talk) 02:01, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm struck by the lack of discussion of Jesus' ongoing presence in both this article and Christology. Many Christians believe in and/or experience Jesus as present with them or as an active agent in the world at the current time. I imagine it would be appropriate to include Jesus' presence in the eucharist, his presence in the hungry, strangers, the naked, the sick, and prisoners, and especially his presence in prayer. Of course, we'll need to find some sources on this topic to guide our writing, but I wanted to point out what seemed to me as an obvious lack. Daask ( talk) 11:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree largely with you, and have reflected upon this topic a great deal. It boils down to, in my view, that for those who follow Christ, the gifts of the Spirit and the witness of Jesus as Savior are present, but it is extremely difficult to articulate in words that might pass Wikipedia’s guidelines. C.S. Lewis does an excellent job. Bseegmiller ( talk) 02:05, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
There is currently an open requested move on Talk:Christ to move the page from its current name to Christ (title). Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 17:03, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I think it is fine as it is. Was Jesus not his name?! The Messiah is coming ( talk) 12:26, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Added more detail wording and links. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 12:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
They weren't both FULLY human because God is holy and much higher then any human. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 23:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Pls don't remove my other edits. The Messiah is coming ( talk) 23:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Spiritual or religious events are capitalized only when referring to proper names of specific incidents or periods (the Great Flood and the Exodus; but Ancient Egyptian myths about the Nile's annual flooding, and an exodus of refugees from Soviet religious persecution). Therefore, Jesus's Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension must be capitalized. Elizium23 ( talk) 20:25, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Whiteguru ( talk · contribs) 19:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Starts GA Review; the review will follow the same sections of the Article. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 19:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
It is noted that two sections of the article were removed during the review as OR. If nominators or editors ( TSventon) could refrain from updating this particular article that I am reviewing until it is complete, I would appreciate it that there are no edit conflicts. Please address any concerns in below the GA Review. Thank you. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 07:56, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
OK
Those Christian groups or denominations which are committed to what is considered as biblically orthodox Christian belief nearly all agree that Jesus:
The final ministry in Jerusalem is sometimes called the Passion Week and begins with the Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem.[82] The gospels provide more details about the final ministry than the other periods, devoting about one third of their text to the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem.[83].
Use of the term Passion Week is uncommon with respect to the last week in Jesus' life; sentence commences with one term and ends with another and links to it. Consistency would indicate Holy Week is the preferred term.
The question of why aren't all of Jesus' miracles included is an interesting question to conclude this section with. I am not altogether enamoured of citing the Catholic Encyclopaedia (with no direct reference) serves the cause of winding up this section. The Catholic Church, whatever it says about Scripture and Tradition, does not own Jesus nor his miracles. Consider.
It is noted there is no reference to Jesus in Apocrypha, in particular the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, nor other apocrypha.
Jesus is not the son of God , he is the servent and messenger of Allah . 103.28.133.120 ( talk) 10:29, 5 December 2022 (UTC)