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I am going to delete the paragraph on Jan's husband Robert Creamer. First and foremost, there were no sources cited. I think this is especially important when discussing legal matters. Secondly, the article is intended to cover Jan Schakowsky. I think a brief mention of her husband is appropriate, but a more detailed discussion should be done on a page dedicated to Robert Creamer.
I am not trying to conceal any information, but I think we must be careful to present it in an appropriate manner. If you wish to add back the deleted content, please discuss first before doing so. Thanks. 02:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost, you are acting as a censor to prevent information that could potentially damage Representative Schakowsky from ever being published. How about a nod to publishing the facts over your wiki-coverup? -- Jbpo 00:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an anonymous user's deletion of information relating to Sckakowsky's husband, Robert Creamer, but added a "citation needed" tag following that paragraph, which is more appropriate than simply deleting the information. If somebody disputes the inclusion of that info, they should discuss it on this Talk page BEFORE deleting the information. -- TommyBoy 01:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The annonymous deleter also removed notice that Cremer was a lobbyist, which is a defining characteristic of the trial. A US congresswoman married to a lobbyist, who is then convicted of a felony is certainly mentionable in her biography. I have re-inserted Creamer's occupation. I also found a citation from the Chicago Suntimes for Creamers sentencing. Jbpo
Here is a condemnation of Schakowsky's involvement with Creamer's criminal enterprise in the Chicago Tribune. http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/premium/printedition/Friday/chi-0604070150apr07,1,3270729.column. She certainly HAS been accused in the press, albeit not the court. So saying that Schakowsky has not been "charged with" is 100% correct. Here is citation for Schakowsky being on the board at IPAC. http://capitalfax.blogspot.com/2006/04/jan-schakowsky-robert-creamer-and.html. : Jbpo
At some point, shouldn't anonymous edits be barred from this page. There is definitely a repetition of attempts to hide Schakowsky's husband's conviction from the public view. : Jbpo
Sources are biased? As biased as the father-in-law of an employee of Bob Creamer-who happened to be the judge in the Bob Creamer case? Can we please ban the anonymous editors? This is a clear case of a shill/censor trying to squash an unfavorable story. As the anonymous poster is identified, I suggest a truce and mediation. Until then, I will post the actual results of the case: Jbpo
Yes, you are 10, I am 0. I called you a censor, because you were censoring this entry to suit your propoganda. A shill, kind of a stretch, but you are acting like a shill, but hard to tell as you remain annon. I apologize for calling you a shill. A sneak, yes, but a shill, not yet. Now, can you please identify yourself so that we can declare a truce.: Jbpo
A user named Carlton, without consulting this discussion directed a link concerning Robert Creamer to Robert Creamer, the writer from Sports Illustrated. If this is going to be policed, shouldn't we have a minimal competence level in the policemen? I started a new link to Robert Creamer-Political Activist. Please feel free to add info.-- Jbpo 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know that this member of congress existed or that her husband was convicted of crimes, but the section describing her husband's felony convictions reads like it was a positive thing. I don't think that multiple felony convictions of the spouse of a member of congress, in an organization in which that member of congress played a role, is a positive thing. He was convicted of two felonies, but it's OK because his heart was in the right place? And it's even more OK because the member of congress had no idea that her spouse was carrying out his noble bank fraud scheme? The entire section makes me think that many Wiki authors are not objective people. Frankly, I don't know how you could read the section and think anything else. Goateeki ( talk) 17:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Editors, Your attention is requested in the matter of an AfD nomination for House Resolution 333. I invite your participation on the associated debate page.-- OtisTDog 01:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
To clear up the matter of Schakowsky's religion, these sources:
I think the above establish satisfactorily that the field for "Religion" in the Infobox should be reading "Jewish". Bus stop ( talk) 22:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, this is nonsense. Firstly, the Infobox field for "Religion" is intended to represent the person's religious identification or affiliation. Jayjg will not dispute that Ms. Schakowsky is Jewish. However, he insists that she not be identified as such here without proof that she "practices" Judaism. That a person identifies onself as Jewish, and is accepted as such within the Jewish community should be sufficient. It is not for any of us to judge the authenticity or depth of another's faith. Secondly, is this standard being applied to other Wikipedia articles with respect to religious identification, whether as Jewish, Catholic, or any other faith?
I would also like to point out that in the article by Steve Sheffey, in the first paragraph of Ms. Schakowsky's opening statement, she says, "I grew up not far from here, in West Rogers Park, and spent much of my time at Temple Menorah, where I celebrated my Bat Mitzvah." This indicates that she fully embraced her Jewish faith upon entering adulthood, and clearly indicates that her identification as Jewish is not simply cultural or ethnic.
I should also mention that Jayjg left a message on my Talk Page warning me to refrain from adding "unreferenced biographical content" and that "content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Wikipedia policy." And he threatened that I may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. That this simple entry of "Jewish" could be regarded as defamatory is complete nonsense. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 04:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm with Jayjg here. A plain understanding of the term "Religion" means aspects of holding certain shared theological beliefs, participating in certain sacred rituals, and perhaps having one's values influenced by such. If there are no sources to indicate the person fits that type of description then you can't label them religious. Of course, that someone isn't religious may not preclude them otherwise being described as Jewish in terms of their identity (I understand Jewish can be more than the associated religious practice and belief) - but you can't say their "religion" is Jewish - unless they hold some distinctively Jewish sacred beliefs, or engage in some distinctively Jewish sacred practice. To say otherwise is simply to muck about with the plain meaning of words and risk giving the reader a false understanding about the subject. Now, stop repeating yourself. Your argument has been rejected by Jewish and non-Jewish editors alike.--
Scott Mac 13:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
It may be worth noting that Schakowsky's opponent in the 2010 election was an Orthodox Jew. Might this explain why out of 39 Jewish members of the incoming Congress, only Jan Schakowsky has no religion identified on her Wikipedia bio? Perhaps someone does have an axe to grind here.
Jayjg is attempting to impose a standard in this case that is nowhere else applied in Wikipedia biographies. I understand the distinction he makes between "Jewish" and "Judaism," but it is not really pertinent here. Catholics are identified as "Catholic," not as practitioners of "Catholicism." There is no requirement for sources that prove the person attends Mass regularly.
What we are looking for here is simply the person's religious affiliation. Such religious affiliations are reported by congressional staffs to Congressional Quarterly, the Almanac of American Politics, and Project VoteSmart (VoteSmart.com). The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life relies on information provided to Congressional Quarterly.
We have ample sources indicating that Ms. Schakowsky is Jewish and that her religious affiliation is Jewish. Without sources indicating that she professes no religious faith, Jayjg is arguing from silence. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 21:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
BlueMesa171 ( talk) 03:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Here's is a source identifying Schakowsky's membership in Beth Emet Synagogue in Evanston, IL, affiliated with the Union for Reform Judaism. This quote from Jan Schakowsky is featured in the 2004-2005 Year in Review from the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
"As a member of Beth Emet The Free Synagogue, I knew the RAC’s work and how Jewish social activists so often draw upon its resources. Since coming to Washington, I have gotten to see the other side of the RAC, and, especially, its effectiveness as an advocate for the values I hold dear." [12]
I hope this settles the question. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 21:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The controversy was whether Jan Schakowsky was Jewish in the religious sense, i.e. an adherent of "Judaism" as opposed to simply being Jewish ethnically but non-religious or secular. Jayjg and Yworo are quite correct in noting that being "Jewish" does not necessarily mean that a person adheres to "Judiasm" as a religion. Our controversy has been complicated, I think, by the fact that we've had a number of sources saying "Religion: Jewish."
"Jewish" can mean various things, depending on the context in which it is used. And while I agree that we should be careful not to assume that all Jewish people are religious, or adhere to Judaism, it is also correct for a Jewish person to identify religiously as simply "Jewish."
Yes, technically the religion is known as "Judaism." Just as "Roman Catholicism" is a religion. But a Catholic will say his or her religion is "Roman Catholic," or simply "Catholic." Protestants likewise will say the name of their church or denomination, "Lutheran" not "Lutheranism."
Many reliable and authoritative sources follow the practice of denoting religious affiliation as "Jewish," "Roman Catholic," "Lutheran", etc. And it is quite correct to use these terms to refer to adherents of these religious traditions. And when a reference says "Religion: Jewish" we know by the context in what sense that term is used. It is not out of ignorance as Yworo has suggested, nor an indication of unreliability as Jayjg believes. It is simply standard usage.
In any case, the "Religion" in the Infobox is to identify a person's religious affiliation. If you give a fill-in-the-blank questionnaire to someone and ask "Religion," very few will write "Judaism," "Roman Catholicism," or "Lutheranism." You will get "Jewish," "Catholic" or "Lutheran," etc. It is an entirely proper as a way of refering to one's religious identification. But yes, it can also be an adjective, depending on the context. And with the term "Jewish," special caution may be in order.
Of the 27 incoming members of the House of Representatives, 17 are identified by Wikipedia as "Jewish," and nine have their religion listed as "Judaism." As I noted earlier, out of these 27 Jewish members of the House, and 12 members of the Senate, it's only Jan Schakowsky who's religion is not noted in the Infobox on Wikipedia. For members of the U.S. Senate, "Judaism" is the more common usage, with nine out of 12 listed this way. Senator Lieberman's Infobox is more specific with "Orthodox Judaism." This also goes to show that even the word "Judaism" does not fully define the varying beliefs found within the Jewish community. And Jan Schakowsky herself used the old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."
And Yworo's suggestion that usage of "Jewish" rather than "Judaism" as a religious identification may indicate anti-semitism is ludicrous and uncalled for. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 04:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As concerns the term to be inserted in the field next to the term "Religion" in the Infobox for Schakowsky, I think the best choice of term is "Jewish"—not "Judaism." My choice of term is specific to this article, because the reliable sources that apply to only this article are guiding me in my choice of terminology. The actual word used by sources referring to Schakowsky is that she is Jewish. Reliable sources, when speaking about Schakowsky, do not mention "Judaism" at all. Schakowsky, when speaking of herself, says that she is Jewish. She doesn't mention the term "Judaism."
Furthermore we have numerous instances of actual "Infoboxes" presented at websites positioning the word "Jewish" opposite the word "Religion". The Washington Post creates Infoboxes about Schakowsky that position the word "Jewish" after the word "Religion". I have yet to find a web site positioning the word "Judaism" after the word "Religion" in an Infobox for Schakowsky, and I have located several, though none as prominent as The Washington Post. I think we should be following the lead of The Washington Post:
You will notice that in all of the above The Washington Post chooses to complete their "Infobox" field for "Religion" with the term "Jewish". This is not surprising as Jewish is considered a religious attribute of an individual. The arguments that have been made for using the term "Judaism" in an Infobox opposite the term "Religion" make only limited sense in the absence of confirmation in actual reliable sources.
Policy calls for adherence to sources. At WP:NOR I find:
What all of the above quotes from policy are indicating is that we should not be choosing a term that is not supported by sources (Judaism) to replace a term that is supported by sources (Jewish). Bus stop ( talk) 17:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Now, with the passage of years, I see that the Info box format no longer includes "Religion". What's up with this change? BlueMesa171 ( talk) 06:06, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to respectfully suggest that you may have thrown the baby out with the bath water re: the Schakowsky edits. In particular, adding headings for each paragraph--each of those was either an already-existing direct quote from the paragraph below it or a brief summary. They are no more promotional than what has already been approved, and less biased than the headings that current exist. Was each individual heading improper, or was it limited to a few? (I admit that "champion of health care" instead of "Supporter of ACA" was perhaps a bit biased.)
I am also confused regarding the clarification outlining the bias and reputation of author Caroline Glick, which was sourced via a 3rd party nonprofit.
Also, why is Caroline Glick's opinion of the issue valid, but John Dodge's commentary about it isn't? They were both published in respected sources.
Some of the current paragraphs with headings under "US House of Representatives" are nowhere near as relevant to the Congresswoman's overall career as the preceding sections, which is why I feel that those earlier paragraphs should also bear headings.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:08, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, a lot of this makes sense now. Thanks for the clarification.
In the spirit of that, can you remove 2 of the 4 headings that currently exist? To have all of that information about an 18-year Congresswoman be lumped together, only to have two mentions of essentially the same, narrowly-focused, negative issue seems to create a perceived bias. Those would be "Comments on Joel Pollack" and "Boycott of Netanyahu Speech"--can we remove those headings but leave the information within? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:29, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I see your point about being the central figure in an event, rather than a policy position. Does that mean that the two section headings that I added for the paragraphs that describe her central role in an event--the Nation endorsement for VP & her appointment on the Fiscal Responsibility and Reform Committee--will be restored? She is certainly the central figure in these specific events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
The long direct quote from Spero, is there any evidence this view is significant, that is, held by anyone beyond a minority of one? Was this quote actually published anywhere other than the NewsMax website? Was this NewsMax report picked up by any noteworthy secondary source such as a newspaper? Please advise. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 18:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Two long direct quotes from Glick, might this give undue weight to one person's point of view? What is Glick's expertise that our encyclopedia include her assessment that the subject of this article is a "radical leftist"? Might these long direct quotes benefit from a brief, neutral summarizing paraphrase? Hugh ( talk) 18:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Characterizing the subject of this article as someone "who happen to be Jewish," might that indicate a possible disqualifying bias in the source? How can inclusion of this characterization be appropriate, even with in-text attribution, in a biography of a living person in our encyclopedia? Hugh ( talk) 18:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
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I am going to delete the paragraph on Jan's husband Robert Creamer. First and foremost, there were no sources cited. I think this is especially important when discussing legal matters. Secondly, the article is intended to cover Jan Schakowsky. I think a brief mention of her husband is appropriate, but a more detailed discussion should be done on a page dedicated to Robert Creamer.
I am not trying to conceal any information, but I think we must be careful to present it in an appropriate manner. If you wish to add back the deleted content, please discuss first before doing so. Thanks. 02:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost, you are acting as a censor to prevent information that could potentially damage Representative Schakowsky from ever being published. How about a nod to publishing the facts over your wiki-coverup? -- Jbpo 00:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an anonymous user's deletion of information relating to Sckakowsky's husband, Robert Creamer, but added a "citation needed" tag following that paragraph, which is more appropriate than simply deleting the information. If somebody disputes the inclusion of that info, they should discuss it on this Talk page BEFORE deleting the information. -- TommyBoy 01:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The annonymous deleter also removed notice that Cremer was a lobbyist, which is a defining characteristic of the trial. A US congresswoman married to a lobbyist, who is then convicted of a felony is certainly mentionable in her biography. I have re-inserted Creamer's occupation. I also found a citation from the Chicago Suntimes for Creamers sentencing. Jbpo
Here is a condemnation of Schakowsky's involvement with Creamer's criminal enterprise in the Chicago Tribune. http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/premium/printedition/Friday/chi-0604070150apr07,1,3270729.column. She certainly HAS been accused in the press, albeit not the court. So saying that Schakowsky has not been "charged with" is 100% correct. Here is citation for Schakowsky being on the board at IPAC. http://capitalfax.blogspot.com/2006/04/jan-schakowsky-robert-creamer-and.html. : Jbpo
At some point, shouldn't anonymous edits be barred from this page. There is definitely a repetition of attempts to hide Schakowsky's husband's conviction from the public view. : Jbpo
Sources are biased? As biased as the father-in-law of an employee of Bob Creamer-who happened to be the judge in the Bob Creamer case? Can we please ban the anonymous editors? This is a clear case of a shill/censor trying to squash an unfavorable story. As the anonymous poster is identified, I suggest a truce and mediation. Until then, I will post the actual results of the case: Jbpo
Yes, you are 10, I am 0. I called you a censor, because you were censoring this entry to suit your propoganda. A shill, kind of a stretch, but you are acting like a shill, but hard to tell as you remain annon. I apologize for calling you a shill. A sneak, yes, but a shill, not yet. Now, can you please identify yourself so that we can declare a truce.: Jbpo
A user named Carlton, without consulting this discussion directed a link concerning Robert Creamer to Robert Creamer, the writer from Sports Illustrated. If this is going to be policed, shouldn't we have a minimal competence level in the policemen? I started a new link to Robert Creamer-Political Activist. Please feel free to add info.-- Jbpo 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know that this member of congress existed or that her husband was convicted of crimes, but the section describing her husband's felony convictions reads like it was a positive thing. I don't think that multiple felony convictions of the spouse of a member of congress, in an organization in which that member of congress played a role, is a positive thing. He was convicted of two felonies, but it's OK because his heart was in the right place? And it's even more OK because the member of congress had no idea that her spouse was carrying out his noble bank fraud scheme? The entire section makes me think that many Wiki authors are not objective people. Frankly, I don't know how you could read the section and think anything else. Goateeki ( talk) 17:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Editors, Your attention is requested in the matter of an AfD nomination for House Resolution 333. I invite your participation on the associated debate page.-- OtisTDog 01:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
To clear up the matter of Schakowsky's religion, these sources:
I think the above establish satisfactorily that the field for "Religion" in the Infobox should be reading "Jewish". Bus stop ( talk) 22:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, this is nonsense. Firstly, the Infobox field for "Religion" is intended to represent the person's religious identification or affiliation. Jayjg will not dispute that Ms. Schakowsky is Jewish. However, he insists that she not be identified as such here without proof that she "practices" Judaism. That a person identifies onself as Jewish, and is accepted as such within the Jewish community should be sufficient. It is not for any of us to judge the authenticity or depth of another's faith. Secondly, is this standard being applied to other Wikipedia articles with respect to religious identification, whether as Jewish, Catholic, or any other faith?
I would also like to point out that in the article by Steve Sheffey, in the first paragraph of Ms. Schakowsky's opening statement, she says, "I grew up not far from here, in West Rogers Park, and spent much of my time at Temple Menorah, where I celebrated my Bat Mitzvah." This indicates that she fully embraced her Jewish faith upon entering adulthood, and clearly indicates that her identification as Jewish is not simply cultural or ethnic.
I should also mention that Jayjg left a message on my Talk Page warning me to refrain from adding "unreferenced biographical content" and that "content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Wikipedia policy." And he threatened that I may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. That this simple entry of "Jewish" could be regarded as defamatory is complete nonsense. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 04:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm with Jayjg here. A plain understanding of the term "Religion" means aspects of holding certain shared theological beliefs, participating in certain sacred rituals, and perhaps having one's values influenced by such. If there are no sources to indicate the person fits that type of description then you can't label them religious. Of course, that someone isn't religious may not preclude them otherwise being described as Jewish in terms of their identity (I understand Jewish can be more than the associated religious practice and belief) - but you can't say their "religion" is Jewish - unless they hold some distinctively Jewish sacred beliefs, or engage in some distinctively Jewish sacred practice. To say otherwise is simply to muck about with the plain meaning of words and risk giving the reader a false understanding about the subject. Now, stop repeating yourself. Your argument has been rejected by Jewish and non-Jewish editors alike.--
Scott Mac 13:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
It may be worth noting that Schakowsky's opponent in the 2010 election was an Orthodox Jew. Might this explain why out of 39 Jewish members of the incoming Congress, only Jan Schakowsky has no religion identified on her Wikipedia bio? Perhaps someone does have an axe to grind here.
Jayjg is attempting to impose a standard in this case that is nowhere else applied in Wikipedia biographies. I understand the distinction he makes between "Jewish" and "Judaism," but it is not really pertinent here. Catholics are identified as "Catholic," not as practitioners of "Catholicism." There is no requirement for sources that prove the person attends Mass regularly.
What we are looking for here is simply the person's religious affiliation. Such religious affiliations are reported by congressional staffs to Congressional Quarterly, the Almanac of American Politics, and Project VoteSmart (VoteSmart.com). The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life relies on information provided to Congressional Quarterly.
We have ample sources indicating that Ms. Schakowsky is Jewish and that her religious affiliation is Jewish. Without sources indicating that she professes no religious faith, Jayjg is arguing from silence. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 21:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
BlueMesa171 ( talk) 03:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Here's is a source identifying Schakowsky's membership in Beth Emet Synagogue in Evanston, IL, affiliated with the Union for Reform Judaism. This quote from Jan Schakowsky is featured in the 2004-2005 Year in Review from the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:
"As a member of Beth Emet The Free Synagogue, I knew the RAC’s work and how Jewish social activists so often draw upon its resources. Since coming to Washington, I have gotten to see the other side of the RAC, and, especially, its effectiveness as an advocate for the values I hold dear." [12]
I hope this settles the question. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 21:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
The controversy was whether Jan Schakowsky was Jewish in the religious sense, i.e. an adherent of "Judaism" as opposed to simply being Jewish ethnically but non-religious or secular. Jayjg and Yworo are quite correct in noting that being "Jewish" does not necessarily mean that a person adheres to "Judiasm" as a religion. Our controversy has been complicated, I think, by the fact that we've had a number of sources saying "Religion: Jewish."
"Jewish" can mean various things, depending on the context in which it is used. And while I agree that we should be careful not to assume that all Jewish people are religious, or adhere to Judaism, it is also correct for a Jewish person to identify religiously as simply "Jewish."
Yes, technically the religion is known as "Judaism." Just as "Roman Catholicism" is a religion. But a Catholic will say his or her religion is "Roman Catholic," or simply "Catholic." Protestants likewise will say the name of their church or denomination, "Lutheran" not "Lutheranism."
Many reliable and authoritative sources follow the practice of denoting religious affiliation as "Jewish," "Roman Catholic," "Lutheran", etc. And it is quite correct to use these terms to refer to adherents of these religious traditions. And when a reference says "Religion: Jewish" we know by the context in what sense that term is used. It is not out of ignorance as Yworo has suggested, nor an indication of unreliability as Jayjg believes. It is simply standard usage.
In any case, the "Religion" in the Infobox is to identify a person's religious affiliation. If you give a fill-in-the-blank questionnaire to someone and ask "Religion," very few will write "Judaism," "Roman Catholicism," or "Lutheranism." You will get "Jewish," "Catholic" or "Lutheran," etc. It is an entirely proper as a way of refering to one's religious identification. But yes, it can also be an adjective, depending on the context. And with the term "Jewish," special caution may be in order.
Of the 27 incoming members of the House of Representatives, 17 are identified by Wikipedia as "Jewish," and nine have their religion listed as "Judaism." As I noted earlier, out of these 27 Jewish members of the House, and 12 members of the Senate, it's only Jan Schakowsky who's religion is not noted in the Infobox on Wikipedia. For members of the U.S. Senate, "Judaism" is the more common usage, with nine out of 12 listed this way. Senator Lieberman's Infobox is more specific with "Orthodox Judaism." This also goes to show that even the word "Judaism" does not fully define the varying beliefs found within the Jewish community. And Jan Schakowsky herself used the old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."
And Yworo's suggestion that usage of "Jewish" rather than "Judaism" as a religious identification may indicate anti-semitism is ludicrous and uncalled for. BlueMesa171 ( talk) 04:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As concerns the term to be inserted in the field next to the term "Religion" in the Infobox for Schakowsky, I think the best choice of term is "Jewish"—not "Judaism." My choice of term is specific to this article, because the reliable sources that apply to only this article are guiding me in my choice of terminology. The actual word used by sources referring to Schakowsky is that she is Jewish. Reliable sources, when speaking about Schakowsky, do not mention "Judaism" at all. Schakowsky, when speaking of herself, says that she is Jewish. She doesn't mention the term "Judaism."
Furthermore we have numerous instances of actual "Infoboxes" presented at websites positioning the word "Jewish" opposite the word "Religion". The Washington Post creates Infoboxes about Schakowsky that position the word "Jewish" after the word "Religion". I have yet to find a web site positioning the word "Judaism" after the word "Religion" in an Infobox for Schakowsky, and I have located several, though none as prominent as The Washington Post. I think we should be following the lead of The Washington Post:
You will notice that in all of the above The Washington Post chooses to complete their "Infobox" field for "Religion" with the term "Jewish". This is not surprising as Jewish is considered a religious attribute of an individual. The arguments that have been made for using the term "Judaism" in an Infobox opposite the term "Religion" make only limited sense in the absence of confirmation in actual reliable sources.
Policy calls for adherence to sources. At WP:NOR I find:
What all of the above quotes from policy are indicating is that we should not be choosing a term that is not supported by sources (Judaism) to replace a term that is supported by sources (Jewish). Bus stop ( talk) 17:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Now, with the passage of years, I see that the Info box format no longer includes "Religion". What's up with this change? BlueMesa171 ( talk) 06:06, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to respectfully suggest that you may have thrown the baby out with the bath water re: the Schakowsky edits. In particular, adding headings for each paragraph--each of those was either an already-existing direct quote from the paragraph below it or a brief summary. They are no more promotional than what has already been approved, and less biased than the headings that current exist. Was each individual heading improper, or was it limited to a few? (I admit that "champion of health care" instead of "Supporter of ACA" was perhaps a bit biased.)
I am also confused regarding the clarification outlining the bias and reputation of author Caroline Glick, which was sourced via a 3rd party nonprofit.
Also, why is Caroline Glick's opinion of the issue valid, but John Dodge's commentary about it isn't? They were both published in respected sources.
Some of the current paragraphs with headings under "US House of Representatives" are nowhere near as relevant to the Congresswoman's overall career as the preceding sections, which is why I feel that those earlier paragraphs should also bear headings.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:08, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, a lot of this makes sense now. Thanks for the clarification.
In the spirit of that, can you remove 2 of the 4 headings that currently exist? To have all of that information about an 18-year Congresswoman be lumped together, only to have two mentions of essentially the same, narrowly-focused, negative issue seems to create a perceived bias. Those would be "Comments on Joel Pollack" and "Boycott of Netanyahu Speech"--can we remove those headings but leave the information within? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:29, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I see your point about being the central figure in an event, rather than a policy position. Does that mean that the two section headings that I added for the paragraphs that describe her central role in an event--the Nation endorsement for VP & her appointment on the Fiscal Responsibility and Reform Committee--will be restored? She is certainly the central figure in these specific events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:9800:212B:286D:5F2C:57BB ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
The long direct quote from Spero, is there any evidence this view is significant, that is, held by anyone beyond a minority of one? Was this quote actually published anywhere other than the NewsMax website? Was this NewsMax report picked up by any noteworthy secondary source such as a newspaper? Please advise. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 18:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Two long direct quotes from Glick, might this give undue weight to one person's point of view? What is Glick's expertise that our encyclopedia include her assessment that the subject of this article is a "radical leftist"? Might these long direct quotes benefit from a brief, neutral summarizing paraphrase? Hugh ( talk) 18:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Characterizing the subject of this article as someone "who happen to be Jewish," might that indicate a possible disqualifying bias in the source? How can inclusion of this characterization be appropriate, even with in-text attribution, in a biography of a living person in our encyclopedia? Hugh ( talk) 18:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
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