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He was king of scotland and england but lets just ignore the scotland part, as it is offensive to the superiority complex of the imperialistic english people that they were ran by a scotman, and hey england is bigger, so lets ignore real history and make up a new history eh, to pander to the arrogance of the english "never been beaten" myth. Great logic. This is just silly arrogant english game of claming they have never been defeated and never lost, never been occupied. No doubt we will have some idiot claing William the conqueror was really from Milton Keynes, Ceasar was from Barnet, and King Canute was from Birmingham, and that William was not a foreign norman baron who conquered the entire nation of england. oooo that hurts doesn't it. No dount we will have someone claiming James was really an english man. LOL How pathetic. So we have to claim his offical title was just king of england, to conn people abroad into thinking scotland was part of england. That simply was not the case whether you like or not. Scotland was independent had it's own parliament and the fact is the king of england was a scot. So even though he was king of scotlandd first, we have to ingore that in his title, How patheitc. This is same types who think english people are ehtnically german when they are not. That english people are somehting special greater than other people. Racist idiots, with qa superiority complex. Arrogant drivel. It would be perfeclty reasonable to have his long title that he was king of scotland and england, but to allow redirects from the indivdual titles he held, but hey that would giving into those scots eh we canot have that Ooooooo nooooo imagine a haiving to admitt the great unebalt e nation of england has often been run by non english men. Utterlyl pathsetic you englishy need to grow up. I am not racist against all english people but this is just arrogant drivel. MESSAGE TO ENGLAND NATIONALISTS HE WAS KING OF SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND NOT JUST ENGLAND, AND THAT WAS A VITAL PART OF WHO HE WAS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whereisthis ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
== While distancing myself from the strident strange tone of the person above, can I also put forward that James VI should not redirected to James I of England. He was first and foremost James VI of Scotland and later became known as James VI and I. Would it be possible (with the editors' permission) to change this to James VI and I of Scotland and England (or something more neat and in keeping with Wiki-style? This is quite important as it appears either very anglo-centric or just anti-scottish.
Can we leave this category off until the above discussion is resolved? I would rather not have this included unless its definitive, if thats possible. Anyways, thanks, -- Tom ( talk) 19:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Just curious but how would James I (also an intolerant religious man) fall into the modern bi- or gay subculture? Because of rumors about him? Because he had court members in his room? I am an advocate of removing the category until it is proven 100%. Canutethegreat ( talk) 05:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to continually direct this article into a gay fantasy, when indeed, the allegations of homosexuality had to do with the Stuart court of politics, rather than sexuality (which you've never put into perspective)? Is it necessary to sexualize a decidedly asexual and even frigid, Calvinistic environment, by anachronistically depicting events in ignorant eyes of modern libertinism? 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 14:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In any case, this edit war will last forever. You want to go tit-for-tat? I can play just as long. But, I will never have sullied my reputation by reverting your falsehoods. I'll perhaps, encourage those you abuse and vilify here to not touch the article when it comes down to it. Let you do all the movement and us all the criticism. You are into domination? Comes with the territory, huh? You've said vicious things about several people, so you're not innocent. I'm simply calling you out on it. 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 14:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
But we won't settle anything by personal attacks, and people who indulge in them them are warned they will be blocked if they continue DGG ( talk) 14:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think the category is appropriate, there is no consensus that he actually was, but that is beside the point. The category is jarring, since it in the time of the subject, not only was the term homosexual never used (it was coined c.1860 I believe), but the very concept of homosexuality was not understood as something seperate from regular sexuality the way we view it today. So to imply that he was somehow part of the "LGBT community" allongside that famous drag queen, Prince Charles seems a little ahistoric. Anyway, I though that categories by sexual orientation were all being deleted as "non-notable cross categoraisations." Lobojo ( talk) 11:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
“ | Articles about notable lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people who have publicly declared their sexual orientation or gender identity, or whose sexual orientation or gender identity is known and not debated by historians. | ” |
This doesn't seem like something to debate. Its not our place to decide which scholars are right, and decide if he was gay. If it is not a proven absolute, then it does not belong in an encyclopedia. Speculation and theories do not belong in an article. Peace. Canutethegreat ( talk) 16:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You reverted me twice, I came here to try to mediate this dispute after I saw it being discussed elsewhere. You claim that I have not engaged on the talk page, yet this is the opposite the facts, as you can see. This is a very clear cut case. The consensus you refer to does not exist - I only see 2 editors here activlly supporting the CAT, and 4 opposing it, including two outside editors myself and DGG. I have demonstrated above why this CAT is not applicable, this is not a matter of opinion, there is a dispute among historians ergo he does not belong in the category, and that is that. Please revert yourself. Lobojo ( talk) 01:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I read this talk page last night, and honest to God, I have no idea why this conversation is so long and so personal. Historians suggest James I had relationships with his male courtiers, and he had children with Anne of Denmark, which (historians suggest) would make him bisexual. James I was royalty. Thus the inclusion of LGBT royalty. And - if the article is accurate - it's featured status not only confirms this but verifies its very high quality, I don't understand why anyone would care what category he's in. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Lobojo, first let me apologize if it sounded like I was calling you homophobic - that was not intended in any way. After taking a day off from even reading comments, I think I can see your argument. You're saying that there is disagreement about whether James was gay, therefore he doesn't belong in the category. And I can sort of understand that, if this were a black-and-white world. For living people, we can only categorize them in ways that they themselves have (or would) categorize themselves - for legal reasons and because that's the right way to do things.
WP:LGBT has struggled over this issue as well - can one really call Clark Gable gay? What about Achilles? Achilles certainly didn't go to the local gay bar, and wouldn't have even known the concept of one. For people who have long since passed on, no one can tell us directly if they really were gay.
The scheme the WikiProject has ended up using is to say that if they're living, WP:BLP trumps any claims that a person is gay. A notable example of this is Larry Craig. He may or may not have been trolling for sex in a men's room, but he says he isn't gay - therefore, he's not. Another example is Jodie Foster - she's been living with a woman for 15 years, raises her kids with the woman, even thanks her "for sticking by her through thick and thin". But she's never called herself a lesbian or bisexual, and never called her partner anything other than her partner. So she doesn't go in an LGBT cat.
But once they've died, there are only third-party references to go by. So if those references say "so-and-so was a sodomite", it gets treated just like other controversial information - report both sides and let the reader know what's being argued about. For the most part, if there are several reports that a person was gay, then the project has argued to also put them in the category. Otherwise the category becomes useless for anything past 50 years ago.
And to tie my comments here to your question above, I believe the "LGBT people" category description is going by WP:BLP instructions, whereas "LGBT royalty" is working from an assumption that the monarch is dead. I'm not certain that the description of one trickles down to the other, since categories aren't hierarchical, but I can see your point that they might. I hope that does a better job of explaining the reasoning presented here. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 05:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Lobojo: SatyrTN has explained the rational for including James in the category. I will attempt to explain why I see that subcategories do not inherit criteria from the parent category. In a strict hierarchical classification system, or tree structure, parents control the child entities. That is, the constraints and characteristics are inherited from the parent entity. One of the best examples is the biological taxonomy system. Or a typical company organizational chart.
However there are other types of classification systems that are not hierarchical or tree structured. Categories in Wikipedia is one such system. In WP, subcategories can have more than one parent category, for example. It's more like a network system, with some hierarchical elements, in that categories are lumped together based on a common characteristic, in this case, LGBT.
I can't find anything that says that WP subcategories must inherit their criteria for inclusion from the parent category. In other words, my interpretation is that each category is free to determine criteria separate from other categories, as well as from their parent or parents. If Category:LGBT royalty was a strict hierarchical child of Category:LGBT people, then your argument would have validity, as the child category could not relax the requirements for inclusion. Can you find some policy that states that child categories must follow the parent criteria? I couldn't, and I've done a lot of reading in the last few days.
I believe that you are arguing from a good faith interpretation of the category structure in WP, although I think it's a misunderstanding. However, I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments, and if they are sufficiently compelling, to follow them. I'm encouraged that you don't find the article itself to be an issue, which indicates that it's not the subject matter that is your concern.
I like to believe that we are all here to improve WP, and to make it easier for readers to find useful information, not to waste time and energy debating a category. I was rather astonished to see the amount of debate on this particular issue, especially after having expended much energy of the question of James's sexuality last month. I hope that clarifies my rationale for keeping the category. Regards — Becksguy ( talk) 11:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, that is because vague categories are frowned upon in wikipedia, and you may be correct. I think it would stand a decent chance actually, if we could think of a good snappy title. Since there are other people like this, other kings and prinecs and so on, who were rumored to have been into boys. And there is rarely any consenus, which is why the category is so empty as it stands. There were 100s of major historical figures who likely gay, but there is rarely any concrete evidence, so if you tried adding this cat to any of those people it would be reverted by the people who watch those pages (rightly too). A list would really be the best option in my view, it really would be exelent and interesting. I feel that the category isn't really adding anything here. The people in the category are all very obscure, and some of them are not gay at all - two of them are merely pedophiles who forcibly raped underaged boys, Alexander was "gay" but so was everyone around him, and "royal" isn't really approriate for anyone who lived before the fall of Rome. In short the category doesn't really list any clear cut major figues who were certainly gay only these ones (James, but it shouldn't), some minor princes, and 2 pedophiles. Let us Listify this category, it could have 100s of annotaed entries and provide a intesting history dataset, unlike this anemic category. Lobojo ( talk) 13:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
If I might add my two cents worth. Yes, speaking as a guy who bats for the other team myself, I find this modern labelling very tiresome. LGBT, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual (I came across the term a little while ago); the terms are all trying to put people into boxes. And quite frankly, they don't all fit in the same box. Personally I don't call myself gay, because that's someone else's label for me. Now James produced a swag of kids. I don't know if he enjoyed it all that much, but he did his royal duty particular well. And he had his male 'favourites'. And he was probably in the sack with some, or many, of them. I don't know if that makes him what we would call gay or bisexual? Who knows? And in the end, does it really matter?-- Gazzster ( talk) 01:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, scrap the category altogether. -- Gazzster ( talk) 03:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
For clarification: Is it the royalty that is being disputed in this discussion of the category or the LGBT part? If the LGBT part for the term bisexual because it's a common term to describe an age-old characteristic?
I think the category as LGBT royalty is appropriate for James I for two reasons: 1) Multiple sources allude to James' relationships with men. To exclude him because a source says unequivocally he never had relationships with men calls more into question about that source than it does James' qualification for the category. 2) I find it difficult to follow the category rules being as strict as they are in an area such as sexual orientation when historians, librarians, and relatives of historical subjects have altered documents to hide details about subjects due to generational attitudes about homosexuality. To follow that rule to the letter would mean to eradicate all categories regarding sexual orientation, since these would almost always be disputed. And that, simply, is unacceptable. If the rules are strict, I do not think the responsibility should be placed on the category or upon the article for James I, but the rule itself. It should be amended or changed. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No, we can't agree that the category needs to go. It's entirely appropriate, referenced, consistent with the definition, does not violate any rules, and it previously passed consensus. I am working on a long list of references and quotes to show James's bisexuality and homoerotic nature, despite the sanitizing of, or silence on the issue from some other sources. I have 16 books so far (including those from Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, NYU) and a large number of quotes. The hard part is typing them all in, so it's not ready for prime time quite yet. But here are a couple of samples:
— Becksguy ( talk) 16:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no requirement that we "prove" that James was gay, that would be unreasonable and constitute OR anyway. People cannot come into the category LBGT and it subs by people saying they are gay unless that is undisputed among historians. The issue is murky, at best we can say that many people say that he was probably gay. I suggest listify, this cateogory will end up deleted if the rules are relaxed on inclusion. Lobojo ( talk) 00:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's messy and unseemly. If we have to scrutinise the life of a dead man just to put him in a box, how about when we come to living people? And like Qp10qp says, we shouldn't stereotype. Those terms were invented by WASPs anyway in order to categorise the rest of the world according to their own views.-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
F****, you got me there! (lol) Touche! You got me there, but I just don't like it.-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I found James I because I was looking for royalty suspected of being less than completely straight. Certainly, in my view, it is quite reasonable to characterize James I as such and to thus have him in the Category:LGBT royalty category. Since the article clearly states his homosexual tendencies, the category seems very reasonable and that anybody would waste the time of so many people arguing otherwise is what might prove the greatest challenge to the Wikipedia concept. Not everyone's opinion has the same value ... -- Law Lord ( talk) 02:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It's general guideline that unless something is proven not to be true, yet that same something has enough evidence to support that most likely it is true, it can be categorized appropriately. That is the case with James I. -- ALLSTAR echo 08:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
To answer Lobojo's question, of course someone objects or we wouldn't be having this ridiculously long conversation about it, and that someone apparently isn't just me or a single person. -- ALLSTAR echo 15:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the consensus for this category is now "Articles about notable lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people who have publicly declared their sexual orientation or gender identity, or whose sexual orientation or gender identity is known and not debated by historians." Everyone agrees that James does not fit this description, and hence, he no longer fits the category as currently defined. To include him, you would need to redefine the category. DrKiernan ( talk) 09:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but not "everyone" agrees. There are more than a few editors that believe James I does fit the criteria for the LGBT royalty cat. Have you read the extensive previous discussions about that exact issue? And even very recently, there are several editors that disagree. — Becksguy ( talk) 10:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, the phrase "not debated by historians" was in the Category:LGBT royalty category for less than one hour on 29 December 2007. The description for Category:LGBT royalty currently reads: This category includes both monarchs and members of royal families who are shown by a verifiable, reliable source to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. There is nothing in the category, or category talk page that changes that. — Becksguy ( talk) 11:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Since no one has said anything, I'm restoring the Category:LGBT royalty category per previous consensus. And, no, it is not a requirement that there be no debate among historians that he was homosexual, or had homoerotic attractions with his admirers, as previously discussed extensively. Here, reposted, are two reliable sources from several available that establish his sexuality:
There are more references available on his sexuality, but two from well regarded university presses are sufficient for the category. — Becksguy ( talk) 11:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The last part of the last sentence in the "Personal relationships" section says "his marriage to Anne of Denmark, with whom he fathered his children." The word "his" is redundant, but removing it sounds like both he and Anne were fathers. I'm having trouble copyediting that to make sense... Help? :) -- SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 06:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
James was King of Scotland prior to becoming King of England, and was King of Scotland much longer. Therefore he should be listed as James VI of Scotland rather than James I of England. This site demonstrates a definite pro-English bias at the expense of other nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.146.173.34 ( talk) 05:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that the genius pointing out this is EN wiki isn't educated enough to realize they speak English in Scotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.146.173.34 ( talk) 10:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's a non-issue. It's a case of politicising an issue unecessarily.-- Gazzster ( talk) 13:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You know, all this talk of "needless politicisation" makes me wonder.
Now, stop me if this doesn't make sense, and maybe this is a bit revolutionary, but couldn't we call the article by his name rather than his title, because while he had more than one title, he only had one name?
OK, so there were several men by the name of James Stewart in history, so maybe we'd need an additional identifier, like James Stewart (1566-1625), but although England was more important internationally than Scotland at the time, Scotland is still more important to Scottish people than English is. Ergo, the current title reflects the non-neutral POV of most of the world in favour to the non-neutral POV of the Scots.
The only other way to guarantee NPOV is to fork the article into one for Scotland and one for England -- which would just be silly. Prof Wrong ( talk) 14:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
James I of England is the most common usage, thus the article's name. Philip III of France and Henry IV of France are also most common usage titles. GoodDay ( talk) 16:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC) Wouldnt a vote be a good idea here? -- Camaeron ( talk) 13:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The title is wrong as well, it should reflect the main agreement that he was James VI first. Let's get something straight. He's nearly always called James VI in Scotland, if not, then James VI and 1. If you go to Linthigow Palace, there is no mention of him being called by Historic Scotland (on the wall engraving) anything else as other than 'James VI'. It does come up in conversation, I've a friend whose sixth child was called James for that very reason. Ok, maybe I keep strange company, but there are a lot like me. With a new Scottish parliament, one cannot argue that Scotland has been absorbed into England. With the contribution to the British Empire the Scots made (and I won't bore you with the huge disproportionate list) and the Scottish Enlightment, we were not an unimportant country. Perhaps we were not wealthy in money but intellectual property we had in a vast amount. It doesn't need Napier to work out the logarithmic contribution the Scots made to the world. Supermack-mar08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.109.37 ( talk) 01:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Just thought I'd put it another note here. His style, as noted in the article was "His Majesty, James VI, by the Grace of God, King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.". Perhaps therefore, since he was known at the time as "James VI, King of..", the article should be known as "James VI of England", since his style is what determines the reginal number, not the location. He wasn't King James I, King of Ireland. He was James VI, King of Ireland, even though there were no previous Kings called James of that Kingdom. The obvious bias against the fact he was James VI of Scotland prior to also becoming King of England is evident in the comments here, but nonetheless, he was and is King James VI first, and according to the laws of the now United Kingdom, the reginal style takes it's numeral from the higher figure; hence Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, even though neither Scotland nor the United Kingdom have had a monarch of that name before. Although the Union of Parliaments that established that system was still a hundred years away, nonetheless, might we not take precedence from that and declare that he is James VI, King of England, Scotland France and Ireland, just as was done at the time. If, for brevity's sake shorten that, then "James VI" would be more correct, but failing that, "James VI of England, Scotland", or even just "James VI of England" is still correct. His style was James VI. No mention of James I was made. The title is quite clearly incorrect. The irrelevant bleatings of those who seem to have an pro-English anti-Scottish bias aside, there is no reason to not correct this mistake. That severa other articles will need cleanup is also irrelevant; right is right, and this title, as it stands is not. He was not styled as "James I King of England, Scotland" etc. It was"James VI King of England, Scotland" etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizard Drongo ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I think as this monarch represented the merger of the crowns, it is important to list both his titles in this specific case. The heading of James I of England makes the article more confusing. -- Stephend01 ( talk) 22:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
While I don't think the name shuold be changed to something more cumbersome, I think that the first line should give both his main roles clearly, so I changed it to James I of England, James VI of Scotland referred to as James VI and I (19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) was King of Scots, King of England and King of Ireland. What do people think of this change?
Lobojo (
talk)
18:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I am re posting this note to try to focus discussion on the change I made rather that on the personal attacks made against me.While I don't think the name should be changed to something more cumbersome, I think that the first line should give both his main roles clearly, so I changed it to James I of England, James VI of Scotland referred to as James VI and I (19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) was King of Scots, King of England and King of Ireland. What do people think of this change? Lobojo ( talk) 18:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I like the present version. The titleit w should remain, because that's how he's most commonly known. And the first lines explains his two reigns in chronology order, which lists Scotland first. Nicely done.-- Gazzster ( talk) 22:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep it the way it is. -- Law Lord ( talk) 16:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Agreed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.109.37 ( talk) 01:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the current version is inaccurate, misleading, and extremely rascist. To suggest that James VI should, and is only known by the title James I of England is really quite english nationalistic jingoism, and reading the comments in this talk page it is obvious that the majority are aware of this and find delight in it. The guy was scottish, King of Scots, who by accident of birth happened to inherit the crown of a small neighbouring country. Had that country been Ireland, Wales, Afghanistan or India I dont think we woud be seeing this discussion. It seems the 'little englanders' (and there seem to be a hell of a lot of them on wikipedia) are trying to hide the fact that he was, and remained, James VI of Scots. If we take as an example Carlos V Holy Roman Emperor, his page makes it quite clear where he was first king of and where he came from, whereas the commentary on this page appears to suggest that he should magically appear, fully formed, on his ascencion to the english throne. I'm sure Aragones and Castillian people would like that page to be called 'Carlos V of Aragon' or 'Carlos V of Castille'. However in his case before he was Holy Roman Emperor and king of half the european countries he was just 'Carlos'. This is not the case with James VI. And yeah I know there is a wikipedia convention, but it appears to be in a shambles wrt kings of scots. They man's name was James Stewart, James VI of Scotland, that should be the name of the article. The rest is part of the article. You can link James I of England to it, or even have your own wee article about when he was in england, fine by me. 193.153.22.222 ( talk) 18:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The link to Daemonologie leads to Demonology. This doesn't seem appropriate. I don't know much about this, but I assume the book was on this topic. However, it seems like it would be more appropriate to link to an article about the book. I'd like to propose one of two options: somebody who knows about this stuff can create a stub article for the book and link to that, or remove the link. BlearySpecs ( talk) 00:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a vague memory that James I was an epilepsy sufferer. Can anybody confirm whether there is any substance to this notion? Thank you -- Lil Miss Picky ( talk) 17:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
James's "Royal Coat" image removed from the "Regencies" section.
Removed this intrusive template. It doesn't actually show the House of Stuart: and relevant details of the House of Stuart are already included in the infobox, in the article text, and in the boxes at the foot of the article.
Scottish and English Royalty |
House of Stuart |
---|
James VI and I |
Removed the stuff below. Apart from the duplicated shield, I've never seen anything like it in any history books or scholarly articles on James; besides which, it is not sourced. If someone wishes to see this material on Wikipedia, they should in my view dedicate a special article to it, devoted to heraldry. Either that or find a way of including elements of it where appropriate in the form of prose, not notes, and with scholarly references.
As King of England and Scots, James's full style was His Majesty, James VI, by the Grace of God, King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.
Prior to his ascension in Scotland, his full style was Prince James Stuart, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Albany, Earl of Carrick, Earl of Ross, Lord Renfrew, Lord Ardmannoch, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland
Royal styles of King James I of England | |
---|---|
Reference style | His Majesty |
Spoken style | Your Majesty |
Alternative style | Sire |
I've also removed the following gallery.
And I've removed this: Of James's great-great-grandparents, seven were Scottish, four were English (though the same two people), three were French, one Danish and one Dutch. This can be taken as a rough indication of his background.
I present the material here for appraisal. It might appear that my reasons are simply a matter of taste; and it's true that I do not like to see all this agglomeration interfering with a clean and logical article design. But, more importantly, the people who have added this material have not sourced it. This is a featured article, and the featured principle is that everything should be fully referenced. I see no reason why some of the portraits in the gallery should not be added to the article; but no need for a whole gallery in a history article. May I point out out that a separate article exists for dynastic material and supplementary images: Descendants of James I of England. Too much incidental stuff has accumulated in the infobox too, which I also propose should be cut down. qp10qp ( talk) 18:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the following laboriously titled section that was added after the section on James's accession. This material is concisely mentioned earlier; in this depth, it should become a new article, in my opinion; but I would point out that such over-quoting is not good encyclopedic style, for which summary is the appropriate mode. qp10qp ( talk) 19:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
(Start of removed section)===James's perspective of Elizabeth I of England and Mary, Queen of Scots===
The succession of James as King of England continues to pose some ironies. Elizabeth I, who consented to the succession before her death, had also refused to intervene when James's mother, Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded for treason. James's perspective can be seen in a letter which he wrote to Elizabeth I, which states:
What thing, madame, can greatlier touch me in honour that is a king and a son than that my nearest neighbor, being in straitest friendship with me, shall rigorously put to death a free sovereign prince and my natural mother, alike in estate and sex to her that so uses her, albeit subject (I grant) to a harder fortune, and touching her nearly in proximity of blood? What law of God can permit that justice shall strike upon them whom He has appointed supreme dispensators of the same under Him, whom He hath called gods and therefore subjected to the censure of none in earth, whose anointing by God cannot be defiled by man, . . . Honour were it to you to spare when it is least looked for; honour were it to you...to take me and all other princes in Europe eternally beholden unto you in granting this my so reasonable request, and not (appardon, I pray you, my free speaking) to put princes to straits of honour wherethrough your general reputation and the universal (almost) misliking of you may dangerously peril both in honor and utility your person and estate. [1]
Elizabeth referred to Mary's execution as a "miserable accident." In another letter, Elizabeth reassured James of her positive intentions towards him, writing, "For your part, think you have not in the world a more loving kinswoman nor a more dear friend than myself, nor any that will watch more carefully to preserve you and your estate" [2] .
In another letter, James responded to Elizabeth:
Madame and dearest sister, Whereas by your letter . . . ye purge yourself of your unhappy fact, . . . together with your many and solemn attestations of your innocency -- I dare not wrong you so far as not to judge honourably of your unspotted part therein; so on the other side, I wish that your honourable behavior in all times hereafter may fully persuade the whole world of the same. And as for my part I look that ye will give me at this time such a full satisfaction in all respects as shall be a mean to strengthen and unite this isle, establish and maintain the true religion, and oblige me to be as of before I was, your most loving . . ." [3]
Some might question James's sincerity, but regardless of his true thoughts on Elizabeth, he became the undisputed monarch of both England and Scotland. In 1612, James had his mother's body exhumed from its original place of burial at Peterborough Cathedral and reinterred at Westminster Abbey.(End of removed section)
Although a Scottish Republican, the name of this article MUST be JAMES VI not James I. James I he is, but not first. He was primarily JAMES VI. If disputed he should be James I of GB not of England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fernsehturmaufzug ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the title should be James VI and I. This is the convention used by professional historians, etc. It reflects the order of succession to the Scottish and English/British thrones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fladdabister ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Offensive anti scottish bigot. He was scottish not english. This is just england trying to the fact a scot took over england. Loads of British people who ran India lived there for a long time it did not make them Indian. He was scottish and ran England. Calling him James the first, above james of Scotland ia arrogant and offensive and it a pile of rubbish. He was king of scotland first. You English canot take that so try and hide the facts.
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but really this article should be James VI and I, not James I of England. While England was more powerful, that is no reason to ignore the fact that this was a Scottish king, referred to in official sources and by modern historians as James VI and I of Scotland and England. I would ask most strongly that the editors see their way to retitling this article. Some of the reasons given for not changing it seem almost racist or at the very least merely ignorant and inconsiderate. The size of Scotland means nothing. A Scottish king inherited the English crown. There is no reason to place his English title more highly than his original (and continuing) Scottish one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.134.71 ( talk) 00:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
All scholarly references that I had to study referred to him as James VI and I. If more people know him as James I (through anglo-centric history books perhaps) then redirect from James I to James VI and I, it would be more accurate and a lot less offensive. Even leaving aside political nationalism, James VI and I is more accurate. Strattera ( talk) 01:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Whilst not so splenic as some of the above, I find it intolerable that the "wisest fool" who 'kent weel' the prize of England and enjoyed her riches but never lost his Scots 'tung', is referred to by his later acquisition. Exempli gratia Victoria of the United Kingdom, secondarily known as the Empress of India. An Empress is certainly senior to a mere Queen, and this one certainly didn't speak Hindoostani as her first language. Double standards......? Brendandh
Why isn't the Gunpowder plot mentioned in the article? While doing research on King James on of the assignments was his relation to the gunpowder plot which is somehow not mentioned here at all. Please add this to the article -- Diaa abdelmoneim ( talk) 19:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a quote from a web page that I found on the internet which asserts that King James I was the founding Monarch of America. I want to edit the original article. However, I want this same assertion to be fully discussed such that said posting and correction is both correct and appropriate.
"King James is the founding Monarch of the United States. Under his reign, we have the first successful colonies planted on the American mainland--Virginia, Massachsetts and Nova Scotia. King James ordered, wrote and authorized this Evangelistic Grant Charter to settle the Colony of Virginia: "To make habitation...and to deduce a colony of sundry of our people into that part of America, commonly called Virginia...in propogating of Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness...to bring a settled and quiet government."" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.186.208.99 ( talk) 01:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Number 2 may have been vandalized. Satan was not the sister's name and the link obviously must also be updated. PhoneMistress ( talk) 20:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)PhoneMistress
I've recently uploaded several new images of James I. Although this article already has many images, I hope some of them may be helpful. Dcoetzee 11:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Footnote 7 is a quotation, which goes:
Why are we directly quoting such a large amount of text, when we could make most of the same points by paraphrasing? When we do paraphrase it, can we ensure we don't refer to him as a "writerly" monarch (ugh!)? What's wrong with saying he wrote more than any other monarch and was also the patron of many writers, then name them. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. No consensus for move. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 21:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
James I of England → James VI and I — The current title is incomplete and possibly misleading. He should be quoted with his proper titles. Certainly his title of James VI of Scotland was both the first and longest of his regnal titles. Some of the editors are using spurious reasoning by trying to subjectively analyse James VI and I to discern his feelings on his Scottish title. This seems flawed in an encyclopaedia. Factually he was James VI and I, whatever James or anyone else believe(d). 81.99.134.71 ( talk) 00:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Evidence for move: Examples of academic usage of "VI and I" formulation:
I know this does fall under WP:NCNT and I realise consistancy is important for Wikipedia, and that moving this page could create an awkward precedent. But James VI and I is a special case - he is always much more identified with Scotland than England, and Wikipedia's conventions state we should use the most commonly identified titles, which is not always the larger and wealthier country. I would oppose, for example, the move of James II of England to "James VII and II" for the reason that the later Jacobean king is much more identified with England and the Glorious Revolution. I respect Wikipedia's naming conventions, but James VI and I is almost always identified with the joint titles of England and Scotland, and the page name should reflect this. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 16:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Evidence against move:
The length, and the fact that your proposal has extremely limited usage, is why I suggest it should be "James VI and I" - "James I of England" is preferable to such an uncommon and wieldy name. "James VI and I" ndoes not have an advantage because it is "equal" with regard to Scotland and England, but because it is the most used form, for reasons listed above. Also note "James VI and I" is shorter than the current title. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
1. I'm not saying anything is "superior" to anything else, merely establish popular usage. And while it's not directly relevent, how do you respond to Wikipedia's usage of "Diana, Princess of Wales"? 2. I'm sure most books will use "James I" and "James I of England" interchangably. 3. The official website of the British Monarchy doesn't say the UK was formed in 1603 anyway, and its use of "United Kingdom Monarchs" is presumably analogous to "British monarchs". Template:British monarchs, which I and other editors have been developing, considers James and his successors to have been British monarchs. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 16:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Individual works which refer to him as James I of England:
Surtsicna ( talk) 15:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As I said three days ago, it's time to close this discussion. We aren't really doing much more than reiterating our respective positions, although it's been a pleasure discussing this in a nice civil and congenial way, and I've learned much. I don't disagree that there is support for James I and James VI in various permutations (and a bit for James VI of Scotland). But as QP says, Wikipedia naming conventions really should control in these cases, especially when the reliable sources are inconsistent. So I believe consensus is fairly clear on the side of keeping the article title as it is. This discussion has been ongoing for eight days, longer than an AfD or RfA. Please, lets move on to something else. Therefore I'm asking an uninvolved admin to close this discussion. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As we have to keep this awful title because of silly Wikipedia naming conventions, would it be possible to point out more clearly in the introduction that he was Scottish? By having "Of England" in the title rightly or wrongly, we are confusing some people into thinking he is from England. It doest even say where he was born in the infobox.. Why is that? BritishWatcher ( talk) 12:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the opening sentence, back to James VI & I. It's a fair compromise, considering the article title. Also, James was King of Scotland, longer then King of England & Ireland. GoodDay ( talk) 18:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
As mentioned in the above discussion. James was King of Scotland before & longer then King of England & Ireland. GoodDay ( talk) 18:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
From the article On 24 March 1603, as James I, he succeeded the last Tudor monarch of England and Ireland, Elizabeth I, who died without issue. Which year does this actually mean? Specifically, what was the second day of his reign? Was it 25 March 1603 or 25 March 1604?
Until 1752 in England and Wales, years conventionally ran from 25 March to 24 March; in Scotland it had changed to the modern convention of 1 Jan to 31 Dec during 1600. See Old Style and New Style dates. This means that the year of his accession to the English throne would have been written differently in contemporary English and Scottish records. I'm assuming that the year of his succession, 1603, is a New Style date, but if someone can confirm this, it would be good to put some form of explanatory footnote. — ras52 ( talk) 13:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
The convention among British historians is to quote dates with the year starting on 1 January (because people today do not know about the year starting on 25 March). "NS" and "OS" are widely misused terms. They do not refer to the year start (or did not at the time), but were a measn of bridging the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars. This is only relevant to diplomatic correspondence and foreign trade, between people writing letters between countries using different systems of dates. Hecne a letter might be dated 1/12 March or 28 February/10 March. I take this from the "instructions to authors" stylesheet of various journals to whcih I have contributed. Some historians will quote the date as 1602/3, but the better practice is to correct the date to modern form. Personally I will sometimes use this form in drafting academic articles, with a view to deleting "2/" at a later stage. I have no doubt there is something on this in the WP styleinstructions. In any event, 24 March 1602/3 was the date of Elizabeth's death, and of James' proclamation. Some one took the message to James with remarkable speed, but even so it took some days, and must have taken some days more for James to arrive in England and actually take up rule. I was always taught that Henry VIII died in 1547, but it was in fact January 1546/7. Examples might be multiplied. Peterkingiron ( talk) 11:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Just wondering if he has said: "A custom loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and the black stinking fume thereof ..." .
This is credited to James Charles Stuart of 1604. Does this mean that the worldmapper.com has forgotten to title him as a King, or is this some different bloke who was called James Charles Stuart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.69.144 ( talk) 23:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
He was king of scotland and england but lets just ignore the scotland part, as it is offensive to the superiority complex of the imperialistic english people that they were ran by a scotman, and hey england is bigger, so lets ignore real history and make up a new history eh, to pander to the arrogance of the english "never been beaten" myth. Great logic. This is just silly arrogant english game of claming they have never been defeated and never lost, never been occupied. No doubt we will have some idiot claing William the conqueror was really from Milton Keynes, Ceasar was from Barnet, and King Canute was from Birmingham, and that William was not a foreign norman baron who conquered the entire nation of england. oooo that hurts doesn't it. No dount we will have someone claiming James was really an english man. LOL How pathetic. So we have to claim his offical title was just king of england, to conn people abroad into thinking scotland was part of england. That simply was not the case whether you like or not. Scotland was independent had it's own parliament and the fact is the king of england was a scot. So even though he was king of scotlandd first, we have to ingore that in his title, How patheitc. This is same types who think english people are ehtnically german when they are not. That english people are somehting special greater than other people. Racist idiots, with qa superiority complex. Arrogant drivel. It would be perfeclty reasonable to have his long title that he was king of scotland and england, but to allow redirects from the indivdual titles he held, but hey that would giving into those scots eh we canot have that Ooooooo nooooo imagine a haiving to admitt the great unebalt e nation of england has often been run by non english men. Utterlyl pathsetic you englishy need to grow up. I am not racist against all english people but this is just arrogant drivel. MESSAGE TO ENGLAND NATIONALISTS HE WAS KING OF SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND NOT JUST ENGLAND, AND THAT WAS A VITAL PART OF WHO HE WAS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whereisthis ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
== While distancing myself from the strident strange tone of the person above, can I also put forward that James VI should not redirected to James I of England. He was first and foremost James VI of Scotland and later became known as James VI and I. Would it be possible (with the editors' permission) to change this to James VI and I of Scotland and England (or something more neat and in keeping with Wiki-style? This is quite important as it appears either very anglo-centric or just anti-scottish.
Can we leave this category off until the above discussion is resolved? I would rather not have this included unless its definitive, if thats possible. Anyways, thanks, -- Tom ( talk) 19:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Just curious but how would James I (also an intolerant religious man) fall into the modern bi- or gay subculture? Because of rumors about him? Because he had court members in his room? I am an advocate of removing the category until it is proven 100%. Canutethegreat ( talk) 05:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to continually direct this article into a gay fantasy, when indeed, the allegations of homosexuality had to do with the Stuart court of politics, rather than sexuality (which you've never put into perspective)? Is it necessary to sexualize a decidedly asexual and even frigid, Calvinistic environment, by anachronistically depicting events in ignorant eyes of modern libertinism? 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 14:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In any case, this edit war will last forever. You want to go tit-for-tat? I can play just as long. But, I will never have sullied my reputation by reverting your falsehoods. I'll perhaps, encourage those you abuse and vilify here to not touch the article when it comes down to it. Let you do all the movement and us all the criticism. You are into domination? Comes with the territory, huh? You've said vicious things about several people, so you're not innocent. I'm simply calling you out on it. 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 14:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
But we won't settle anything by personal attacks, and people who indulge in them them are warned they will be blocked if they continue DGG ( talk) 14:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think the category is appropriate, there is no consensus that he actually was, but that is beside the point. The category is jarring, since it in the time of the subject, not only was the term homosexual never used (it was coined c.1860 I believe), but the very concept of homosexuality was not understood as something seperate from regular sexuality the way we view it today. So to imply that he was somehow part of the "LGBT community" allongside that famous drag queen, Prince Charles seems a little ahistoric. Anyway, I though that categories by sexual orientation were all being deleted as "non-notable cross categoraisations." Lobojo ( talk) 11:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
“ | Articles about notable lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people who have publicly declared their sexual orientation or gender identity, or whose sexual orientation or gender identity is known and not debated by historians. | ” |
This doesn't seem like something to debate. Its not our place to decide which scholars are right, and decide if he was gay. If it is not a proven absolute, then it does not belong in an encyclopedia. Speculation and theories do not belong in an article. Peace. Canutethegreat ( talk) 16:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You reverted me twice, I came here to try to mediate this dispute after I saw it being discussed elsewhere. You claim that I have not engaged on the talk page, yet this is the opposite the facts, as you can see. This is a very clear cut case. The consensus you refer to does not exist - I only see 2 editors here activlly supporting the CAT, and 4 opposing it, including two outside editors myself and DGG. I have demonstrated above why this CAT is not applicable, this is not a matter of opinion, there is a dispute among historians ergo he does not belong in the category, and that is that. Please revert yourself. Lobojo ( talk) 01:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I read this talk page last night, and honest to God, I have no idea why this conversation is so long and so personal. Historians suggest James I had relationships with his male courtiers, and he had children with Anne of Denmark, which (historians suggest) would make him bisexual. James I was royalty. Thus the inclusion of LGBT royalty. And - if the article is accurate - it's featured status not only confirms this but verifies its very high quality, I don't understand why anyone would care what category he's in. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Lobojo, first let me apologize if it sounded like I was calling you homophobic - that was not intended in any way. After taking a day off from even reading comments, I think I can see your argument. You're saying that there is disagreement about whether James was gay, therefore he doesn't belong in the category. And I can sort of understand that, if this were a black-and-white world. For living people, we can only categorize them in ways that they themselves have (or would) categorize themselves - for legal reasons and because that's the right way to do things.
WP:LGBT has struggled over this issue as well - can one really call Clark Gable gay? What about Achilles? Achilles certainly didn't go to the local gay bar, and wouldn't have even known the concept of one. For people who have long since passed on, no one can tell us directly if they really were gay.
The scheme the WikiProject has ended up using is to say that if they're living, WP:BLP trumps any claims that a person is gay. A notable example of this is Larry Craig. He may or may not have been trolling for sex in a men's room, but he says he isn't gay - therefore, he's not. Another example is Jodie Foster - she's been living with a woman for 15 years, raises her kids with the woman, even thanks her "for sticking by her through thick and thin". But she's never called herself a lesbian or bisexual, and never called her partner anything other than her partner. So she doesn't go in an LGBT cat.
But once they've died, there are only third-party references to go by. So if those references say "so-and-so was a sodomite", it gets treated just like other controversial information - report both sides and let the reader know what's being argued about. For the most part, if there are several reports that a person was gay, then the project has argued to also put them in the category. Otherwise the category becomes useless for anything past 50 years ago.
And to tie my comments here to your question above, I believe the "LGBT people" category description is going by WP:BLP instructions, whereas "LGBT royalty" is working from an assumption that the monarch is dead. I'm not certain that the description of one trickles down to the other, since categories aren't hierarchical, but I can see your point that they might. I hope that does a better job of explaining the reasoning presented here. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 05:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Lobojo: SatyrTN has explained the rational for including James in the category. I will attempt to explain why I see that subcategories do not inherit criteria from the parent category. In a strict hierarchical classification system, or tree structure, parents control the child entities. That is, the constraints and characteristics are inherited from the parent entity. One of the best examples is the biological taxonomy system. Or a typical company organizational chart.
However there are other types of classification systems that are not hierarchical or tree structured. Categories in Wikipedia is one such system. In WP, subcategories can have more than one parent category, for example. It's more like a network system, with some hierarchical elements, in that categories are lumped together based on a common characteristic, in this case, LGBT.
I can't find anything that says that WP subcategories must inherit their criteria for inclusion from the parent category. In other words, my interpretation is that each category is free to determine criteria separate from other categories, as well as from their parent or parents. If Category:LGBT royalty was a strict hierarchical child of Category:LGBT people, then your argument would have validity, as the child category could not relax the requirements for inclusion. Can you find some policy that states that child categories must follow the parent criteria? I couldn't, and I've done a lot of reading in the last few days.
I believe that you are arguing from a good faith interpretation of the category structure in WP, although I think it's a misunderstanding. However, I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments, and if they are sufficiently compelling, to follow them. I'm encouraged that you don't find the article itself to be an issue, which indicates that it's not the subject matter that is your concern.
I like to believe that we are all here to improve WP, and to make it easier for readers to find useful information, not to waste time and energy debating a category. I was rather astonished to see the amount of debate on this particular issue, especially after having expended much energy of the question of James's sexuality last month. I hope that clarifies my rationale for keeping the category. Regards — Becksguy ( talk) 11:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, that is because vague categories are frowned upon in wikipedia, and you may be correct. I think it would stand a decent chance actually, if we could think of a good snappy title. Since there are other people like this, other kings and prinecs and so on, who were rumored to have been into boys. And there is rarely any consenus, which is why the category is so empty as it stands. There were 100s of major historical figures who likely gay, but there is rarely any concrete evidence, so if you tried adding this cat to any of those people it would be reverted by the people who watch those pages (rightly too). A list would really be the best option in my view, it really would be exelent and interesting. I feel that the category isn't really adding anything here. The people in the category are all very obscure, and some of them are not gay at all - two of them are merely pedophiles who forcibly raped underaged boys, Alexander was "gay" but so was everyone around him, and "royal" isn't really approriate for anyone who lived before the fall of Rome. In short the category doesn't really list any clear cut major figues who were certainly gay only these ones (James, but it shouldn't), some minor princes, and 2 pedophiles. Let us Listify this category, it could have 100s of annotaed entries and provide a intesting history dataset, unlike this anemic category. Lobojo ( talk) 13:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
If I might add my two cents worth. Yes, speaking as a guy who bats for the other team myself, I find this modern labelling very tiresome. LGBT, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual (I came across the term a little while ago); the terms are all trying to put people into boxes. And quite frankly, they don't all fit in the same box. Personally I don't call myself gay, because that's someone else's label for me. Now James produced a swag of kids. I don't know if he enjoyed it all that much, but he did his royal duty particular well. And he had his male 'favourites'. And he was probably in the sack with some, or many, of them. I don't know if that makes him what we would call gay or bisexual? Who knows? And in the end, does it really matter?-- Gazzster ( talk) 01:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, scrap the category altogether. -- Gazzster ( talk) 03:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
For clarification: Is it the royalty that is being disputed in this discussion of the category or the LGBT part? If the LGBT part for the term bisexual because it's a common term to describe an age-old characteristic?
I think the category as LGBT royalty is appropriate for James I for two reasons: 1) Multiple sources allude to James' relationships with men. To exclude him because a source says unequivocally he never had relationships with men calls more into question about that source than it does James' qualification for the category. 2) I find it difficult to follow the category rules being as strict as they are in an area such as sexual orientation when historians, librarians, and relatives of historical subjects have altered documents to hide details about subjects due to generational attitudes about homosexuality. To follow that rule to the letter would mean to eradicate all categories regarding sexual orientation, since these would almost always be disputed. And that, simply, is unacceptable. If the rules are strict, I do not think the responsibility should be placed on the category or upon the article for James I, but the rule itself. It should be amended or changed. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No, we can't agree that the category needs to go. It's entirely appropriate, referenced, consistent with the definition, does not violate any rules, and it previously passed consensus. I am working on a long list of references and quotes to show James's bisexuality and homoerotic nature, despite the sanitizing of, or silence on the issue from some other sources. I have 16 books so far (including those from Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, NYU) and a large number of quotes. The hard part is typing them all in, so it's not ready for prime time quite yet. But here are a couple of samples:
— Becksguy ( talk) 16:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no requirement that we "prove" that James was gay, that would be unreasonable and constitute OR anyway. People cannot come into the category LBGT and it subs by people saying they are gay unless that is undisputed among historians. The issue is murky, at best we can say that many people say that he was probably gay. I suggest listify, this cateogory will end up deleted if the rules are relaxed on inclusion. Lobojo ( talk) 00:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's messy and unseemly. If we have to scrutinise the life of a dead man just to put him in a box, how about when we come to living people? And like Qp10qp says, we shouldn't stereotype. Those terms were invented by WASPs anyway in order to categorise the rest of the world according to their own views.-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
F****, you got me there! (lol) Touche! You got me there, but I just don't like it.-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I found James I because I was looking for royalty suspected of being less than completely straight. Certainly, in my view, it is quite reasonable to characterize James I as such and to thus have him in the Category:LGBT royalty category. Since the article clearly states his homosexual tendencies, the category seems very reasonable and that anybody would waste the time of so many people arguing otherwise is what might prove the greatest challenge to the Wikipedia concept. Not everyone's opinion has the same value ... -- Law Lord ( talk) 02:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It's general guideline that unless something is proven not to be true, yet that same something has enough evidence to support that most likely it is true, it can be categorized appropriately. That is the case with James I. -- ALLSTAR echo 08:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
To answer Lobojo's question, of course someone objects or we wouldn't be having this ridiculously long conversation about it, and that someone apparently isn't just me or a single person. -- ALLSTAR echo 15:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the consensus for this category is now "Articles about notable lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people who have publicly declared their sexual orientation or gender identity, or whose sexual orientation or gender identity is known and not debated by historians." Everyone agrees that James does not fit this description, and hence, he no longer fits the category as currently defined. To include him, you would need to redefine the category. DrKiernan ( talk) 09:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but not "everyone" agrees. There are more than a few editors that believe James I does fit the criteria for the LGBT royalty cat. Have you read the extensive previous discussions about that exact issue? And even very recently, there are several editors that disagree. — Becksguy ( talk) 10:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, the phrase "not debated by historians" was in the Category:LGBT royalty category for less than one hour on 29 December 2007. The description for Category:LGBT royalty currently reads: This category includes both monarchs and members of royal families who are shown by a verifiable, reliable source to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. There is nothing in the category, or category talk page that changes that. — Becksguy ( talk) 11:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Since no one has said anything, I'm restoring the Category:LGBT royalty category per previous consensus. And, no, it is not a requirement that there be no debate among historians that he was homosexual, or had homoerotic attractions with his admirers, as previously discussed extensively. Here, reposted, are two reliable sources from several available that establish his sexuality:
There are more references available on his sexuality, but two from well regarded university presses are sufficient for the category. — Becksguy ( talk) 11:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The last part of the last sentence in the "Personal relationships" section says "his marriage to Anne of Denmark, with whom he fathered his children." The word "his" is redundant, but removing it sounds like both he and Anne were fathers. I'm having trouble copyediting that to make sense... Help? :) -- SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 06:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
James was King of Scotland prior to becoming King of England, and was King of Scotland much longer. Therefore he should be listed as James VI of Scotland rather than James I of England. This site demonstrates a definite pro-English bias at the expense of other nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.146.173.34 ( talk) 05:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that the genius pointing out this is EN wiki isn't educated enough to realize they speak English in Scotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.146.173.34 ( talk) 10:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's a non-issue. It's a case of politicising an issue unecessarily.-- Gazzster ( talk) 13:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You know, all this talk of "needless politicisation" makes me wonder.
Now, stop me if this doesn't make sense, and maybe this is a bit revolutionary, but couldn't we call the article by his name rather than his title, because while he had more than one title, he only had one name?
OK, so there were several men by the name of James Stewart in history, so maybe we'd need an additional identifier, like James Stewart (1566-1625), but although England was more important internationally than Scotland at the time, Scotland is still more important to Scottish people than English is. Ergo, the current title reflects the non-neutral POV of most of the world in favour to the non-neutral POV of the Scots.
The only other way to guarantee NPOV is to fork the article into one for Scotland and one for England -- which would just be silly. Prof Wrong ( talk) 14:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
James I of England is the most common usage, thus the article's name. Philip III of France and Henry IV of France are also most common usage titles. GoodDay ( talk) 16:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC) Wouldnt a vote be a good idea here? -- Camaeron ( talk) 13:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The title is wrong as well, it should reflect the main agreement that he was James VI first. Let's get something straight. He's nearly always called James VI in Scotland, if not, then James VI and 1. If you go to Linthigow Palace, there is no mention of him being called by Historic Scotland (on the wall engraving) anything else as other than 'James VI'. It does come up in conversation, I've a friend whose sixth child was called James for that very reason. Ok, maybe I keep strange company, but there are a lot like me. With a new Scottish parliament, one cannot argue that Scotland has been absorbed into England. With the contribution to the British Empire the Scots made (and I won't bore you with the huge disproportionate list) and the Scottish Enlightment, we were not an unimportant country. Perhaps we were not wealthy in money but intellectual property we had in a vast amount. It doesn't need Napier to work out the logarithmic contribution the Scots made to the world. Supermack-mar08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.109.37 ( talk) 01:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Just thought I'd put it another note here. His style, as noted in the article was "His Majesty, James VI, by the Grace of God, King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.". Perhaps therefore, since he was known at the time as "James VI, King of..", the article should be known as "James VI of England", since his style is what determines the reginal number, not the location. He wasn't King James I, King of Ireland. He was James VI, King of Ireland, even though there were no previous Kings called James of that Kingdom. The obvious bias against the fact he was James VI of Scotland prior to also becoming King of England is evident in the comments here, but nonetheless, he was and is King James VI first, and according to the laws of the now United Kingdom, the reginal style takes it's numeral from the higher figure; hence Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, even though neither Scotland nor the United Kingdom have had a monarch of that name before. Although the Union of Parliaments that established that system was still a hundred years away, nonetheless, might we not take precedence from that and declare that he is James VI, King of England, Scotland France and Ireland, just as was done at the time. If, for brevity's sake shorten that, then "James VI" would be more correct, but failing that, "James VI of England, Scotland", or even just "James VI of England" is still correct. His style was James VI. No mention of James I was made. The title is quite clearly incorrect. The irrelevant bleatings of those who seem to have an pro-English anti-Scottish bias aside, there is no reason to not correct this mistake. That severa other articles will need cleanup is also irrelevant; right is right, and this title, as it stands is not. He was not styled as "James I King of England, Scotland" etc. It was"James VI King of England, Scotland" etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizard Drongo ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I think as this monarch represented the merger of the crowns, it is important to list both his titles in this specific case. The heading of James I of England makes the article more confusing. -- Stephend01 ( talk) 22:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
While I don't think the name shuold be changed to something more cumbersome, I think that the first line should give both his main roles clearly, so I changed it to James I of England, James VI of Scotland referred to as James VI and I (19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) was King of Scots, King of England and King of Ireland. What do people think of this change?
Lobojo (
talk)
18:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I am re posting this note to try to focus discussion on the change I made rather that on the personal attacks made against me.While I don't think the name should be changed to something more cumbersome, I think that the first line should give both his main roles clearly, so I changed it to James I of England, James VI of Scotland referred to as James VI and I (19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) was King of Scots, King of England and King of Ireland. What do people think of this change? Lobojo ( talk) 18:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I like the present version. The titleit w should remain, because that's how he's most commonly known. And the first lines explains his two reigns in chronology order, which lists Scotland first. Nicely done.-- Gazzster ( talk) 22:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep it the way it is. -- Law Lord ( talk) 16:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Agreed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.109.37 ( talk) 01:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the current version is inaccurate, misleading, and extremely rascist. To suggest that James VI should, and is only known by the title James I of England is really quite english nationalistic jingoism, and reading the comments in this talk page it is obvious that the majority are aware of this and find delight in it. The guy was scottish, King of Scots, who by accident of birth happened to inherit the crown of a small neighbouring country. Had that country been Ireland, Wales, Afghanistan or India I dont think we woud be seeing this discussion. It seems the 'little englanders' (and there seem to be a hell of a lot of them on wikipedia) are trying to hide the fact that he was, and remained, James VI of Scots. If we take as an example Carlos V Holy Roman Emperor, his page makes it quite clear where he was first king of and where he came from, whereas the commentary on this page appears to suggest that he should magically appear, fully formed, on his ascencion to the english throne. I'm sure Aragones and Castillian people would like that page to be called 'Carlos V of Aragon' or 'Carlos V of Castille'. However in his case before he was Holy Roman Emperor and king of half the european countries he was just 'Carlos'. This is not the case with James VI. And yeah I know there is a wikipedia convention, but it appears to be in a shambles wrt kings of scots. They man's name was James Stewart, James VI of Scotland, that should be the name of the article. The rest is part of the article. You can link James I of England to it, or even have your own wee article about when he was in england, fine by me. 193.153.22.222 ( talk) 18:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The link to Daemonologie leads to Demonology. This doesn't seem appropriate. I don't know much about this, but I assume the book was on this topic. However, it seems like it would be more appropriate to link to an article about the book. I'd like to propose one of two options: somebody who knows about this stuff can create a stub article for the book and link to that, or remove the link. BlearySpecs ( talk) 00:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a vague memory that James I was an epilepsy sufferer. Can anybody confirm whether there is any substance to this notion? Thank you -- Lil Miss Picky ( talk) 17:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
James's "Royal Coat" image removed from the "Regencies" section.
Removed this intrusive template. It doesn't actually show the House of Stuart: and relevant details of the House of Stuart are already included in the infobox, in the article text, and in the boxes at the foot of the article.
Scottish and English Royalty |
House of Stuart |
---|
James VI and I |
Removed the stuff below. Apart from the duplicated shield, I've never seen anything like it in any history books or scholarly articles on James; besides which, it is not sourced. If someone wishes to see this material on Wikipedia, they should in my view dedicate a special article to it, devoted to heraldry. Either that or find a way of including elements of it where appropriate in the form of prose, not notes, and with scholarly references.
As King of England and Scots, James's full style was His Majesty, James VI, by the Grace of God, King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.
Prior to his ascension in Scotland, his full style was Prince James Stuart, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Albany, Earl of Carrick, Earl of Ross, Lord Renfrew, Lord Ardmannoch, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland
Royal styles of King James I of England | |
---|---|
Reference style | His Majesty |
Spoken style | Your Majesty |
Alternative style | Sire |
I've also removed the following gallery.
And I've removed this: Of James's great-great-grandparents, seven were Scottish, four were English (though the same two people), three were French, one Danish and one Dutch. This can be taken as a rough indication of his background.
I present the material here for appraisal. It might appear that my reasons are simply a matter of taste; and it's true that I do not like to see all this agglomeration interfering with a clean and logical article design. But, more importantly, the people who have added this material have not sourced it. This is a featured article, and the featured principle is that everything should be fully referenced. I see no reason why some of the portraits in the gallery should not be added to the article; but no need for a whole gallery in a history article. May I point out out that a separate article exists for dynastic material and supplementary images: Descendants of James I of England. Too much incidental stuff has accumulated in the infobox too, which I also propose should be cut down. qp10qp ( talk) 18:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the following laboriously titled section that was added after the section on James's accession. This material is concisely mentioned earlier; in this depth, it should become a new article, in my opinion; but I would point out that such over-quoting is not good encyclopedic style, for which summary is the appropriate mode. qp10qp ( talk) 19:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
(Start of removed section)===James's perspective of Elizabeth I of England and Mary, Queen of Scots===
The succession of James as King of England continues to pose some ironies. Elizabeth I, who consented to the succession before her death, had also refused to intervene when James's mother, Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded for treason. James's perspective can be seen in a letter which he wrote to Elizabeth I, which states:
What thing, madame, can greatlier touch me in honour that is a king and a son than that my nearest neighbor, being in straitest friendship with me, shall rigorously put to death a free sovereign prince and my natural mother, alike in estate and sex to her that so uses her, albeit subject (I grant) to a harder fortune, and touching her nearly in proximity of blood? What law of God can permit that justice shall strike upon them whom He has appointed supreme dispensators of the same under Him, whom He hath called gods and therefore subjected to the censure of none in earth, whose anointing by God cannot be defiled by man, . . . Honour were it to you to spare when it is least looked for; honour were it to you...to take me and all other princes in Europe eternally beholden unto you in granting this my so reasonable request, and not (appardon, I pray you, my free speaking) to put princes to straits of honour wherethrough your general reputation and the universal (almost) misliking of you may dangerously peril both in honor and utility your person and estate. [1]
Elizabeth referred to Mary's execution as a "miserable accident." In another letter, Elizabeth reassured James of her positive intentions towards him, writing, "For your part, think you have not in the world a more loving kinswoman nor a more dear friend than myself, nor any that will watch more carefully to preserve you and your estate" [2] .
In another letter, James responded to Elizabeth:
Madame and dearest sister, Whereas by your letter . . . ye purge yourself of your unhappy fact, . . . together with your many and solemn attestations of your innocency -- I dare not wrong you so far as not to judge honourably of your unspotted part therein; so on the other side, I wish that your honourable behavior in all times hereafter may fully persuade the whole world of the same. And as for my part I look that ye will give me at this time such a full satisfaction in all respects as shall be a mean to strengthen and unite this isle, establish and maintain the true religion, and oblige me to be as of before I was, your most loving . . ." [3]
Some might question James's sincerity, but regardless of his true thoughts on Elizabeth, he became the undisputed monarch of both England and Scotland. In 1612, James had his mother's body exhumed from its original place of burial at Peterborough Cathedral and reinterred at Westminster Abbey.(End of removed section)
Although a Scottish Republican, the name of this article MUST be JAMES VI not James I. James I he is, but not first. He was primarily JAMES VI. If disputed he should be James I of GB not of England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fernsehturmaufzug ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the title should be James VI and I. This is the convention used by professional historians, etc. It reflects the order of succession to the Scottish and English/British thrones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fladdabister ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Offensive anti scottish bigot. He was scottish not english. This is just england trying to the fact a scot took over england. Loads of British people who ran India lived there for a long time it did not make them Indian. He was scottish and ran England. Calling him James the first, above james of Scotland ia arrogant and offensive and it a pile of rubbish. He was king of scotland first. You English canot take that so try and hide the facts.
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but really this article should be James VI and I, not James I of England. While England was more powerful, that is no reason to ignore the fact that this was a Scottish king, referred to in official sources and by modern historians as James VI and I of Scotland and England. I would ask most strongly that the editors see their way to retitling this article. Some of the reasons given for not changing it seem almost racist or at the very least merely ignorant and inconsiderate. The size of Scotland means nothing. A Scottish king inherited the English crown. There is no reason to place his English title more highly than his original (and continuing) Scottish one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.134.71 ( talk) 00:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
All scholarly references that I had to study referred to him as James VI and I. If more people know him as James I (through anglo-centric history books perhaps) then redirect from James I to James VI and I, it would be more accurate and a lot less offensive. Even leaving aside political nationalism, James VI and I is more accurate. Strattera ( talk) 01:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Whilst not so splenic as some of the above, I find it intolerable that the "wisest fool" who 'kent weel' the prize of England and enjoyed her riches but never lost his Scots 'tung', is referred to by his later acquisition. Exempli gratia Victoria of the United Kingdom, secondarily known as the Empress of India. An Empress is certainly senior to a mere Queen, and this one certainly didn't speak Hindoostani as her first language. Double standards......? Brendandh
Why isn't the Gunpowder plot mentioned in the article? While doing research on King James on of the assignments was his relation to the gunpowder plot which is somehow not mentioned here at all. Please add this to the article -- Diaa abdelmoneim ( talk) 19:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Here is a quote from a web page that I found on the internet which asserts that King James I was the founding Monarch of America. I want to edit the original article. However, I want this same assertion to be fully discussed such that said posting and correction is both correct and appropriate.
"King James is the founding Monarch of the United States. Under his reign, we have the first successful colonies planted on the American mainland--Virginia, Massachsetts and Nova Scotia. King James ordered, wrote and authorized this Evangelistic Grant Charter to settle the Colony of Virginia: "To make habitation...and to deduce a colony of sundry of our people into that part of America, commonly called Virginia...in propogating of Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness...to bring a settled and quiet government."" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.186.208.99 ( talk) 01:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Number 2 may have been vandalized. Satan was not the sister's name and the link obviously must also be updated. PhoneMistress ( talk) 20:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)PhoneMistress
I've recently uploaded several new images of James I. Although this article already has many images, I hope some of them may be helpful. Dcoetzee 11:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Footnote 7 is a quotation, which goes:
Why are we directly quoting such a large amount of text, when we could make most of the same points by paraphrasing? When we do paraphrase it, can we ensure we don't refer to him as a "writerly" monarch (ugh!)? What's wrong with saying he wrote more than any other monarch and was also the patron of many writers, then name them. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. No consensus for move. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 21:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
James I of England → James VI and I — The current title is incomplete and possibly misleading. He should be quoted with his proper titles. Certainly his title of James VI of Scotland was both the first and longest of his regnal titles. Some of the editors are using spurious reasoning by trying to subjectively analyse James VI and I to discern his feelings on his Scottish title. This seems flawed in an encyclopaedia. Factually he was James VI and I, whatever James or anyone else believe(d). 81.99.134.71 ( talk) 00:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Evidence for move: Examples of academic usage of "VI and I" formulation:
I know this does fall under WP:NCNT and I realise consistancy is important for Wikipedia, and that moving this page could create an awkward precedent. But James VI and I is a special case - he is always much more identified with Scotland than England, and Wikipedia's conventions state we should use the most commonly identified titles, which is not always the larger and wealthier country. I would oppose, for example, the move of James II of England to "James VII and II" for the reason that the later Jacobean king is much more identified with England and the Glorious Revolution. I respect Wikipedia's naming conventions, but James VI and I is almost always identified with the joint titles of England and Scotland, and the page name should reflect this. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 16:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Evidence against move:
The length, and the fact that your proposal has extremely limited usage, is why I suggest it should be "James VI and I" - "James I of England" is preferable to such an uncommon and wieldy name. "James VI and I" ndoes not have an advantage because it is "equal" with regard to Scotland and England, but because it is the most used form, for reasons listed above. Also note "James VI and I" is shorter than the current title. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
1. I'm not saying anything is "superior" to anything else, merely establish popular usage. And while it's not directly relevent, how do you respond to Wikipedia's usage of "Diana, Princess of Wales"? 2. I'm sure most books will use "James I" and "James I of England" interchangably. 3. The official website of the British Monarchy doesn't say the UK was formed in 1603 anyway, and its use of "United Kingdom Monarchs" is presumably analogous to "British monarchs". Template:British monarchs, which I and other editors have been developing, considers James and his successors to have been British monarchs. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 16:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Individual works which refer to him as James I of England:
Surtsicna ( talk) 15:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As I said three days ago, it's time to close this discussion. We aren't really doing much more than reiterating our respective positions, although it's been a pleasure discussing this in a nice civil and congenial way, and I've learned much. I don't disagree that there is support for James I and James VI in various permutations (and a bit for James VI of Scotland). But as QP says, Wikipedia naming conventions really should control in these cases, especially when the reliable sources are inconsistent. So I believe consensus is fairly clear on the side of keeping the article title as it is. This discussion has been ongoing for eight days, longer than an AfD or RfA. Please, lets move on to something else. Therefore I'm asking an uninvolved admin to close this discussion. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
As we have to keep this awful title because of silly Wikipedia naming conventions, would it be possible to point out more clearly in the introduction that he was Scottish? By having "Of England" in the title rightly or wrongly, we are confusing some people into thinking he is from England. It doest even say where he was born in the infobox.. Why is that? BritishWatcher ( talk) 12:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the opening sentence, back to James VI & I. It's a fair compromise, considering the article title. Also, James was King of Scotland, longer then King of England & Ireland. GoodDay ( talk) 18:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
As mentioned in the above discussion. James was King of Scotland before & longer then King of England & Ireland. GoodDay ( talk) 18:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
From the article On 24 March 1603, as James I, he succeeded the last Tudor monarch of England and Ireland, Elizabeth I, who died without issue. Which year does this actually mean? Specifically, what was the second day of his reign? Was it 25 March 1603 or 25 March 1604?
Until 1752 in England and Wales, years conventionally ran from 25 March to 24 March; in Scotland it had changed to the modern convention of 1 Jan to 31 Dec during 1600. See Old Style and New Style dates. This means that the year of his accession to the English throne would have been written differently in contemporary English and Scottish records. I'm assuming that the year of his succession, 1603, is a New Style date, but if someone can confirm this, it would be good to put some form of explanatory footnote. — ras52 ( talk) 13:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
The convention among British historians is to quote dates with the year starting on 1 January (because people today do not know about the year starting on 25 March). "NS" and "OS" are widely misused terms. They do not refer to the year start (or did not at the time), but were a measn of bridging the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars. This is only relevant to diplomatic correspondence and foreign trade, between people writing letters between countries using different systems of dates. Hecne a letter might be dated 1/12 March or 28 February/10 March. I take this from the "instructions to authors" stylesheet of various journals to whcih I have contributed. Some historians will quote the date as 1602/3, but the better practice is to correct the date to modern form. Personally I will sometimes use this form in drafting academic articles, with a view to deleting "2/" at a later stage. I have no doubt there is something on this in the WP styleinstructions. In any event, 24 March 1602/3 was the date of Elizabeth's death, and of James' proclamation. Some one took the message to James with remarkable speed, but even so it took some days, and must have taken some days more for James to arrive in England and actually take up rule. I was always taught that Henry VIII died in 1547, but it was in fact January 1546/7. Examples might be multiplied. Peterkingiron ( talk) 11:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Just wondering if he has said: "A custom loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and the black stinking fume thereof ..." .
This is credited to James Charles Stuart of 1604. Does this mean that the worldmapper.com has forgotten to title him as a King, or is this some different bloke who was called James Charles Stuart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.69.144 ( talk) 23:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)