This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This article must be updated to reflect this. He's dead and the Saudi government is responsible. That's a fact.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainBemused ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I revised "During that period, he was employed by Saudi Arabian intelligence agencies to try and influence..." to "During that period, he was employed by Saudi Arabian intelligence agencies to try to influence..." to correct the grammar flaw. Please advise if any concerns arise. -- H Bruce Campbell ( talk) 15:55, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
As'ad AbuKhalil, (mentioned above, under "Muslim Brotherhood") a Lebanes American professor who has written several books on Saudi Arabia, has written about Khashoggi here:
I suggest we add much of that to the article. (Basically: Khashoggi's "crime" was that he was aligned with the "wrong" Saudi prince), Huldra ( talk) 23:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
"Journalist Jamal Khashoggi died after a fight in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, the country's state TV reported quoting an initial probe. A fight?? Hardly convincing, some 17 days later? But enough at least to put the article into past tense, it seems. Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello. I have been recently following the news regarding Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance and supposed death. I am currently watching ABC World News and they are saying that the Saudi Arabian government has officially acknowledged that Khashoggi is indeed dead. I have not heard what they have said regarding his cause of death. I have heard from others that some say he was sawed to death, some say he was killed in a fistfight. There are many conflicting accounts of what happened but I suggest that some of you watch the ABC World News or check official news websites to find out what really happened, in order to keep the information on this Wikipedia article up to date and factual. Thanks. WIKIswagmaster842 t@lk 22:38, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
CONSENSUS as discussed above Talk:Jamal_Khashoggi#Dedicated_article_for_disappearance/assassination? is to create a separate article, there is no consensus to strip this article of all the death related information, as being done here repeatedly [2] [3] by User:Ammarpad. Don't misconstrue consensus. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 07:41, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
100kb where it must be split" where is this new rule coming from, ? please guide me to this WikiPolicy.
Whatever you want to do with regards to keeping a summary-style section in this article, DO NOT just have two identical pages, copied and pasted from here to there! There are already different edits being made to each respective article, creating inconsistencies. If you cut and paste whole sections to the subarticle, it should immediately be removed from the main article otherwise there is no point of splitting it in the first place. If you want the content in the subarticle, do this right the first time or it will miss out on the changes being continuously made to the main article. Reywas92 Talk 10:02, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Martinevans123 ignore the recrimination, Any comments/opinion on the Actual topic i.e. the plan ahead for this article ? -- DBig Xrayᗙ 16:39, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi is currently featured at Ongoing in ITN on the Main page. Now that his death has been officially "confirmed" should he be nominated to be moved to Recent Deaths or even go into ITN with a blurb? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 09:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Do you have a source that Hatice Cengiz was his partner? She was his fiance. -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The pronunciation of “ Arabic: (ج م ا ل خ ا ش ق ج ي) جمال خاشقجي” is given as “ Hejazi: [ʒaˈmaːl χaːˈʃoɡʒi]”. I see at least these problems:
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Khashoggi was killed 11 days before what would have been his 60th birthday. 2600:8801:B001:2700:CC23:F63F:2112:901B ( talk) 23:30, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
There is no doubt that Jamal Khashoggi had sympathy with Wahhabism and the Muslim Brotherhood in various ways.
In one of his own blogs he argued for Muslim Brotherhood, and wrote that “there can be no political reform and democracy in any Arab country without accepting that political Islam is a part of it.” [1]
In order to how Saudi Arabia should confront Iran, Khashoggi stated that Saudi Arabia “must re-embrace its proper religious identity as a Wahhabi Islamic revivalist state and build alliances with organisations rooted in political Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood”, and that it is a “big mistake” if Saudi Arabia and Muslim Brotherhood cannot be friendly. [2]
He has admitted that: “Yes, I joined the Muslim Brotherhood organization when I was at university. And, I was not alone. Some of the current ministers and deputies did but later every one of us developed their own political tendencies and views.” [3]
References
The sources are provided, both primary and secondary ones.
Why do Midgetman433 delete this sourced text?
En historiker ( talk) 00:31, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I dont know about the Al Jazeera interview, its in arabic, but his washington post column he writes.
"I agree with MBS that the nation should return to its pre-1979 climate, when the government restricted hard-line Wahhabi traditions. Women today should have the same rights as men. And all citizens should have the right to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment. But replacing old tactics of intolerance with new ways of repression is not the answer."
This does not sound like an endorsement of Wahhabism, it sounds quite contrary to that. In addition If you follow the record of the Al Watan publication which he was the editor for, it has a reputation of being a very liberal publication in Saudi Arabia, in fact it was where he was fired multiple times for approving articles criticizing the Wahhabi clergy of Saudi Arabia. Here is the source to the Washington Post article, it actually also cited in this very same page, by another user. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/10/06/read-jamal-khashoggis-columns-for-the-washington-post/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b592f885c652
I feel like that element at the very least, as its multiple contradicting elements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
In addition CNN is reporting on a smear campaign effort, suspected on part of the saudi govt, perhaps there are some elements that should be discussed more extensively before a consensus is reached. Midgetman433 ( talk) 00:52, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
But that Jamal think women should have same rights as men or that citizens should have the right to speak without fear of imprisonment doesn't mean he has no sympathy for Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. All the text was sourced, even from his own mouth.
En historiker (
talk) 00:55, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
this article is from 2017, and its difficult to figure out the exact words he said, as its in arabic, it would be nice to get a transcript of the arabic. also this was from a time, when he was seen as loyal to the saudi state, and im a bit suspicious of Al Jazeera's characterization of him, given the conflict between saudi and Qatar, and Khashoggi at the time being seen as loyal to Saudi. it would be nice to receive a transcript of the interview so we can put his exact words in. the Washington post article is from 2018, and written in english, and he seems to be endorsing the reversion back to pre 1979 norms, and supporting the agenda of the crown prince, just disagreeing with the ways its brought about. In addition I have a difficult time subscribing to the narrative, b/c he used to be the editor for Al Watan /info/en/?search=Al_Watan_(Saudi_Arabia) which is known in saudi arabia as one of its most liberal papers, and he was fired multiple times from his job as editor there for approving article critical of the Wahhabi clergy and establishment there.
Here is some quote from the wikipedia article for the paper.
"Al Watan became a forum for reformist issues in the early 2003. Columnists initiated a discussion regarding whether the teachings of strict Muslim scholars were granted too much credence within Saudi society. They also began to challenge the authority of the mutaween, the religious police force. "
"May 2003 attacks in Saudi Arabia led to the liberals' attack against Wahhabi ideas that financially support salafism. Such criticisms were openly expressed through articles published in Al Watan. Specifically, after a week of intense debate following the bombings of three Riyadh housing complexes in May 2003, an Al Watan journalist asked the minister of interior, Nayef, if the attacks meant that the mutaween would be restructured. Prince Nayef replied, “As a Saudi, you should be ashamed to be asking this question.” One week later, the government fired the editor-in-chief of the paper, Jamal Khashoggi."
this was the first time he was fired.
the second time.
"Khashoggi resigned from his post for a second time in May 2010.[27] Al Watan announced that Khashoggi resigned "to focus on his personal projects". This statement was published on the website of the paper and in its Sunday edition. His resignation came three days after a column by poet Ibrahim al Almaee criticising Salafism was published. The column by al Almaee challenged the Salafists' rejection of popular religious traditions such as patronising shrines and graves of important Islamic figures. It is speculated that his resignation was related to official displeasure with articles critical of the state's harsh Islamic rules." Midgetman433 ( talk) 01:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
"Complete Slander, and twisting of facts, Khashoggi was forced to resign as editor for publishing Ibrahim al-Almaee's article challenging the basic Salafi premises in Al WatanPlease remember, or read up. Khashoggi did not publishing Ibrahim al-Almaee. Khashoggi said he was abroad when the decision was made to publish the article, and he did not agree with the points made by Mr Almaee. ... "the censor was not in tha house" ... as As'ad AbuKhalil explained: " Khashoggi admitted... that in Saudi Arabia he had been both editor and censor. Editors of Saudi regime papers... enforce government rules and eliminate objectionable material.". And again: " He was close to Prince Turki al-Faisal, who was chief of foreign intelligence and the sponsor patron of bin Laden and the fanatical Islamists around the world. ... he spoke about how his role was not only as an editor, but he was a censor. He was enforcer of the rigid dogmas of the Saudi government in the paper... He never wrote a word, never spoke a word against the wishes of the Saudi government. He got in trouble because some people in the paper were courageous, unlike him, and dared to challenge the orthodoxy of the government. That was the career of Jamal Khashoggi." That episode was then explained as follows: " Saudi Arabia: Misunderstanders of Islam force Understander of Islam to resign for publishing correct understanding of Islam" ;-) -- 87.170.205.223 ( talk) 09:32, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
That Khashoggi had another interpretation of Wahhabism and disagreed with the Saud house do not mean that he did not have sympathy for Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. Even Leon Trotsky disagreed with Stalin, but that doesn’t imply that Trotsky did not have sympathy with a communistic society.
And no, it is not smear campaign that Khashoggi had sympathy with Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. It is even confirmed from his own mouth in that blogs in Washington Post.
I will return the text with the 3 sources in the Wikipedia-page sooner or later. En historiker ( talk) 13:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
To say that he is sympathetic to a politically-charged group is to immediately bias his views without explaining why! And this is further amplified when it is put into the summary, as
En historiker did. I also read through the three citations in the summary sentence and couldn't find anything to indicate he was sympathetic towards Wahhabism. So I retained the summary sentence made by
En historiker, moved it out of the summary and into its proper section, omitted any claims of Wahhabism support, and changed it from "sympathetic" to "support of .... as an exercise in democracy".
Fshafique (
talk) 15:49, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi stated that Saudi Arabia “must re-embrace its proper religious identity as a Wahhabi Islamic revivalist state and build alliances with organisations rooted in political Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood”.
Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/jamal-khashoggi-saudis-religious-roots-171123161746247.html
Khashoggi's view is NOT "in direct contrast to Wahhabism".
En historiker ( talk) 18:53, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
This deserves a mention since there are efforts from the right wing and Saudis to paint him as a Jihadist. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 16:38, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
What is wrong with this edit? It was reverted twice alleging that it's "unsourced". -- Mhhossein talk 17:20, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Is Khashoggi member of the Muslim Brotherhood or he is only close to them? -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:11, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I believe that there has to be a section in the article for his political views,but for a Muslim Brotherhood membership,i doubt it,he was very close to the Saudi Monarchy. Alhanuty ( talk) 22:39, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Who fathered him? Some sources expressly say it is kind of a family secret. Perhaps the article should say as much. For it is mind-boggling that a well-known contemporary Middle-Eastern personality′s male parent is unknown. One source (arguably non-RS) says this: ″His [Dodi Fayed′s] mother was Samira Khashoggi, the sister of the Saudi billionaire Adnan Khashoggi. Adnan was Jamal’s father" ( [7]). For what it′s worth. Anyhow, something ought to be said on his father. Axxxion ( talk) 15:41, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
His birth date is disputed, source: https://www.metabunk.org/when-was-jamal-khashoggi-born-and-when-was-his-birthday.t10047/ 219.79.96.206 ( talk) 16:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Please protect the following info, it is not intended for discussion on a speculative killing page or talkpage, ; further reading
Hello @ Huldra:
Can you explain why you deleted the official view of the Saudi government? -- صالح ( talk) 21:55, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi was detained in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018. According to Turkish sources, they believe that Khashoggi was then brutally tortured […]
We have been criticized for the murder of a Saudi-born Saudi man who was abducted in the country on 2/8/2018 Suggest an edit See also an, edit waxaan canbaareynaynaa falkii lagu la kacay warihiyii weynaa ee u dhashay dalka sacuudiga ee lagu afduubtay dalka turki maalintii bishu aheyd 2/10/2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.72.27.18 ( talk) 09:01, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
We suspect that the Saudi government was seeking a diplomatic post because he wanted to get married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.72.27.18 ( talk) 09:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi all, I know this page has been full protected on ar.wiki: I'm just noting at on en.wiki, living and recently deceased people fall under special rules. If these rules are broken, the page here can be locked and sanctions can be applied to individuals. There haven't been issues on this page yet on en.wiki, but in case we get users coming over from ar.wiki, I wanted to leave a note about our conduct expectations. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
How about mentioning what these rules are, TonyBallioni? So as to avoid confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.100.84.247 ( talk) 01:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Is this tense form banned from this article? Throughout Wikipedia mainspace? What does MoS say? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 16:50, 20 October 2018 (UTC) p.s. to which variety of English should this article conform?
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
At the time of his death, Khashoggi was planning to marry Hatice Cengiz, a 36-year-old PhD candidate at a university in Istanbul. The two had met in May 2018, during a conference in the city. Khashoggi, a Saudi national, visited the Saudi consulate on 2 October to get paperwork that would allow him to marry Cengiz.[70] Khashoggi was married and divorced three times. His first marriage was to Rawia al-Tunisi by whom he had two sons and two daughters.
Khashoggi was married and divorced three times. His first marriage was to Rawia al-Tunisi by whom he had two sons and two daughters.Cite error: The <ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page). By 2017, Khashoggi met Hatice Cengiz, a Turkish political scientist and researcher, at a conference hosted by the
Al Sharq Forum in London. Hatice Cengiz wrote analysis on the crisis at
Gulf Cooperation Council, and some of her papers were published by the Humanitarian and Social Research Center (INSAMER), the think tank of
IHH, a Turkish NGO active in more than 100 countries, close to the Muslim Brothers. The IHH is known for coordinating the
Gaza Freedom Flotilla in 2010. Khashoggi and Cengiz became engaged in 2018. He had bought an apartment in Istanbul and the furniture had already been ordered when Khashoggi entered the Saudi consulate on 2 October 2018 to retrieve his divorce papers - a prerequisite for their wedding planned for 3 October 2018 in Istanbul.
[1]
[2]
87.170.206.21 (
talk) 05:17, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
References
This was discussed (prior to Snowdon`s comments), diverted, disrupted, and eventually included in the `see also` of https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Killing_of_Jamal_Khashoggi&action§ion=29 . This should be included in Jamal Khasoggi`s article most certainly, please do. Replacing previous talk, see below; 126.3.54.112 ( talk) 15:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Early reports in the news when Khashoggi was reported missing, and commentary by news "experts", made mention of third-parties listening in on his fate by way of his Apple I-Watch (connects to his I-Phone), but those lines fizzled out after a week or so. There were at least 10 reports mentioning the I-Watch. Doubtful that the average reader of wikipedia knows the technical aspects of "smartphone sensor arrays", but perhaps do grasp the cybercrime of spyware, should the article be mentioning and linking to widespread illegal phonetapping by the Israelis, including inside embassies and consulates? 126.3.20.194 ( talk) 22:25, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
As of Tuesday the 23rd, there has been mention of a third cyber-related system, bringing it to I-Phone, Skype, and Israeli bugging of both.
126.3.20.194 (
talk) 08:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
A question about using middleeastmonitor pegasus article of April 2018 in Khasoggi-linked wikipedia articles; there shouldn`t be any objections to referring to it? 6 months before the killing they knew, and the timesofisrael newspaper article published on 2 October about pegasus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.3.54.112 ( talk) 15:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This article must be updated to reflect this. He's dead and the Saudi government is responsible. That's a fact.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainBemused ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I revised "During that period, he was employed by Saudi Arabian intelligence agencies to try and influence..." to "During that period, he was employed by Saudi Arabian intelligence agencies to try to influence..." to correct the grammar flaw. Please advise if any concerns arise. -- H Bruce Campbell ( talk) 15:55, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
As'ad AbuKhalil, (mentioned above, under "Muslim Brotherhood") a Lebanes American professor who has written several books on Saudi Arabia, has written about Khashoggi here:
I suggest we add much of that to the article. (Basically: Khashoggi's "crime" was that he was aligned with the "wrong" Saudi prince), Huldra ( talk) 23:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
"Journalist Jamal Khashoggi died after a fight in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, the country's state TV reported quoting an initial probe. A fight?? Hardly convincing, some 17 days later? But enough at least to put the article into past tense, it seems. Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello. I have been recently following the news regarding Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance and supposed death. I am currently watching ABC World News and they are saying that the Saudi Arabian government has officially acknowledged that Khashoggi is indeed dead. I have not heard what they have said regarding his cause of death. I have heard from others that some say he was sawed to death, some say he was killed in a fistfight. There are many conflicting accounts of what happened but I suggest that some of you watch the ABC World News or check official news websites to find out what really happened, in order to keep the information on this Wikipedia article up to date and factual. Thanks. WIKIswagmaster842 t@lk 22:38, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
CONSENSUS as discussed above Talk:Jamal_Khashoggi#Dedicated_article_for_disappearance/assassination? is to create a separate article, there is no consensus to strip this article of all the death related information, as being done here repeatedly [2] [3] by User:Ammarpad. Don't misconstrue consensus. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 07:41, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
100kb where it must be split" where is this new rule coming from, ? please guide me to this WikiPolicy.
Whatever you want to do with regards to keeping a summary-style section in this article, DO NOT just have two identical pages, copied and pasted from here to there! There are already different edits being made to each respective article, creating inconsistencies. If you cut and paste whole sections to the subarticle, it should immediately be removed from the main article otherwise there is no point of splitting it in the first place. If you want the content in the subarticle, do this right the first time or it will miss out on the changes being continuously made to the main article. Reywas92 Talk 10:02, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Martinevans123 ignore the recrimination, Any comments/opinion on the Actual topic i.e. the plan ahead for this article ? -- DBig Xrayᗙ 16:39, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi is currently featured at Ongoing in ITN on the Main page. Now that his death has been officially "confirmed" should he be nominated to be moved to Recent Deaths or even go into ITN with a blurb? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 09:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Do you have a source that Hatice Cengiz was his partner? She was his fiance. -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The pronunciation of “ Arabic: (ج م ا ل خ ا ش ق ج ي) جمال خاشقجي” is given as “ Hejazi: [ʒaˈmaːl χaːˈʃoɡʒi]”. I see at least these problems:
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Khashoggi was killed 11 days before what would have been his 60th birthday. 2600:8801:B001:2700:CC23:F63F:2112:901B ( talk) 23:30, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
There is no doubt that Jamal Khashoggi had sympathy with Wahhabism and the Muslim Brotherhood in various ways.
In one of his own blogs he argued for Muslim Brotherhood, and wrote that “there can be no political reform and democracy in any Arab country without accepting that political Islam is a part of it.” [1]
In order to how Saudi Arabia should confront Iran, Khashoggi stated that Saudi Arabia “must re-embrace its proper religious identity as a Wahhabi Islamic revivalist state and build alliances with organisations rooted in political Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood”, and that it is a “big mistake” if Saudi Arabia and Muslim Brotherhood cannot be friendly. [2]
He has admitted that: “Yes, I joined the Muslim Brotherhood organization when I was at university. And, I was not alone. Some of the current ministers and deputies did but later every one of us developed their own political tendencies and views.” [3]
References
The sources are provided, both primary and secondary ones.
Why do Midgetman433 delete this sourced text?
En historiker ( talk) 00:31, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I dont know about the Al Jazeera interview, its in arabic, but his washington post column he writes.
"I agree with MBS that the nation should return to its pre-1979 climate, when the government restricted hard-line Wahhabi traditions. Women today should have the same rights as men. And all citizens should have the right to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment. But replacing old tactics of intolerance with new ways of repression is not the answer."
This does not sound like an endorsement of Wahhabism, it sounds quite contrary to that. In addition If you follow the record of the Al Watan publication which he was the editor for, it has a reputation of being a very liberal publication in Saudi Arabia, in fact it was where he was fired multiple times for approving articles criticizing the Wahhabi clergy of Saudi Arabia. Here is the source to the Washington Post article, it actually also cited in this very same page, by another user. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/10/06/read-jamal-khashoggis-columns-for-the-washington-post/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b592f885c652
I feel like that element at the very least, as its multiple contradicting elements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
In addition CNN is reporting on a smear campaign effort, suspected on part of the saudi govt, perhaps there are some elements that should be discussed more extensively before a consensus is reached. Midgetman433 ( talk) 00:52, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
But that Jamal think women should have same rights as men or that citizens should have the right to speak without fear of imprisonment doesn't mean he has no sympathy for Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. All the text was sourced, even from his own mouth.
En historiker (
talk) 00:55, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
this article is from 2017, and its difficult to figure out the exact words he said, as its in arabic, it would be nice to get a transcript of the arabic. also this was from a time, when he was seen as loyal to the saudi state, and im a bit suspicious of Al Jazeera's characterization of him, given the conflict between saudi and Qatar, and Khashoggi at the time being seen as loyal to Saudi. it would be nice to receive a transcript of the interview so we can put his exact words in. the Washington post article is from 2018, and written in english, and he seems to be endorsing the reversion back to pre 1979 norms, and supporting the agenda of the crown prince, just disagreeing with the ways its brought about. In addition I have a difficult time subscribing to the narrative, b/c he used to be the editor for Al Watan /info/en/?search=Al_Watan_(Saudi_Arabia) which is known in saudi arabia as one of its most liberal papers, and he was fired multiple times from his job as editor there for approving article critical of the Wahhabi clergy and establishment there.
Here is some quote from the wikipedia article for the paper.
"Al Watan became a forum for reformist issues in the early 2003. Columnists initiated a discussion regarding whether the teachings of strict Muslim scholars were granted too much credence within Saudi society. They also began to challenge the authority of the mutaween, the religious police force. "
"May 2003 attacks in Saudi Arabia led to the liberals' attack against Wahhabi ideas that financially support salafism. Such criticisms were openly expressed through articles published in Al Watan. Specifically, after a week of intense debate following the bombings of three Riyadh housing complexes in May 2003, an Al Watan journalist asked the minister of interior, Nayef, if the attacks meant that the mutaween would be restructured. Prince Nayef replied, “As a Saudi, you should be ashamed to be asking this question.” One week later, the government fired the editor-in-chief of the paper, Jamal Khashoggi."
this was the first time he was fired.
the second time.
"Khashoggi resigned from his post for a second time in May 2010.[27] Al Watan announced that Khashoggi resigned "to focus on his personal projects". This statement was published on the website of the paper and in its Sunday edition. His resignation came three days after a column by poet Ibrahim al Almaee criticising Salafism was published. The column by al Almaee challenged the Salafists' rejection of popular religious traditions such as patronising shrines and graves of important Islamic figures. It is speculated that his resignation was related to official displeasure with articles critical of the state's harsh Islamic rules." Midgetman433 ( talk) 01:08, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
"Complete Slander, and twisting of facts, Khashoggi was forced to resign as editor for publishing Ibrahim al-Almaee's article challenging the basic Salafi premises in Al WatanPlease remember, or read up. Khashoggi did not publishing Ibrahim al-Almaee. Khashoggi said he was abroad when the decision was made to publish the article, and he did not agree with the points made by Mr Almaee. ... "the censor was not in tha house" ... as As'ad AbuKhalil explained: " Khashoggi admitted... that in Saudi Arabia he had been both editor and censor. Editors of Saudi regime papers... enforce government rules and eliminate objectionable material.". And again: " He was close to Prince Turki al-Faisal, who was chief of foreign intelligence and the sponsor patron of bin Laden and the fanatical Islamists around the world. ... he spoke about how his role was not only as an editor, but he was a censor. He was enforcer of the rigid dogmas of the Saudi government in the paper... He never wrote a word, never spoke a word against the wishes of the Saudi government. He got in trouble because some people in the paper were courageous, unlike him, and dared to challenge the orthodoxy of the government. That was the career of Jamal Khashoggi." That episode was then explained as follows: " Saudi Arabia: Misunderstanders of Islam force Understander of Islam to resign for publishing correct understanding of Islam" ;-) -- 87.170.205.223 ( talk) 09:32, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
That Khashoggi had another interpretation of Wahhabism and disagreed with the Saud house do not mean that he did not have sympathy for Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. Even Leon Trotsky disagreed with Stalin, but that doesn’t imply that Trotsky did not have sympathy with a communistic society.
And no, it is not smear campaign that Khashoggi had sympathy with Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. It is even confirmed from his own mouth in that blogs in Washington Post.
I will return the text with the 3 sources in the Wikipedia-page sooner or later. En historiker ( talk) 13:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
To say that he is sympathetic to a politically-charged group is to immediately bias his views without explaining why! And this is further amplified when it is put into the summary, as
En historiker did. I also read through the three citations in the summary sentence and couldn't find anything to indicate he was sympathetic towards Wahhabism. So I retained the summary sentence made by
En historiker, moved it out of the summary and into its proper section, omitted any claims of Wahhabism support, and changed it from "sympathetic" to "support of .... as an exercise in democracy".
Fshafique (
talk) 15:49, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi stated that Saudi Arabia “must re-embrace its proper religious identity as a Wahhabi Islamic revivalist state and build alliances with organisations rooted in political Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood”.
Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/jamal-khashoggi-saudis-religious-roots-171123161746247.html
Khashoggi's view is NOT "in direct contrast to Wahhabism".
En historiker ( talk) 18:53, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
This deserves a mention since there are efforts from the right wing and Saudis to paint him as a Jihadist. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 16:38, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
What is wrong with this edit? It was reverted twice alleging that it's "unsourced". -- Mhhossein talk 17:20, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi Is Khashoggi member of the Muslim Brotherhood or he is only close to them? -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:11, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I believe that there has to be a section in the article for his political views,but for a Muslim Brotherhood membership,i doubt it,he was very close to the Saudi Monarchy. Alhanuty ( talk) 22:39, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Who fathered him? Some sources expressly say it is kind of a family secret. Perhaps the article should say as much. For it is mind-boggling that a well-known contemporary Middle-Eastern personality′s male parent is unknown. One source (arguably non-RS) says this: ″His [Dodi Fayed′s] mother was Samira Khashoggi, the sister of the Saudi billionaire Adnan Khashoggi. Adnan was Jamal’s father" ( [7]). For what it′s worth. Anyhow, something ought to be said on his father. Axxxion ( talk) 15:41, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
His birth date is disputed, source: https://www.metabunk.org/when-was-jamal-khashoggi-born-and-when-was-his-birthday.t10047/ 219.79.96.206 ( talk) 16:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Please protect the following info, it is not intended for discussion on a speculative killing page or talkpage, ; further reading
Hello @ Huldra:
Can you explain why you deleted the official view of the Saudi government? -- صالح ( talk) 21:55, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Khashoggi was detained in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October 2018. According to Turkish sources, they believe that Khashoggi was then brutally tortured […]
We have been criticized for the murder of a Saudi-born Saudi man who was abducted in the country on 2/8/2018 Suggest an edit See also an, edit waxaan canbaareynaynaa falkii lagu la kacay warihiyii weynaa ee u dhashay dalka sacuudiga ee lagu afduubtay dalka turki maalintii bishu aheyd 2/10/2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.72.27.18 ( talk) 09:01, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
We suspect that the Saudi government was seeking a diplomatic post because he wanted to get married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.72.27.18 ( talk) 09:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi all, I know this page has been full protected on ar.wiki: I'm just noting at on en.wiki, living and recently deceased people fall under special rules. If these rules are broken, the page here can be locked and sanctions can be applied to individuals. There haven't been issues on this page yet on en.wiki, but in case we get users coming over from ar.wiki, I wanted to leave a note about our conduct expectations. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
How about mentioning what these rules are, TonyBallioni? So as to avoid confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.100.84.247 ( talk) 01:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Is this tense form banned from this article? Throughout Wikipedia mainspace? What does MoS say? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 16:50, 20 October 2018 (UTC) p.s. to which variety of English should this article conform?
This
edit request to
Jamal Khashoggi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
At the time of his death, Khashoggi was planning to marry Hatice Cengiz, a 36-year-old PhD candidate at a university in Istanbul. The two had met in May 2018, during a conference in the city. Khashoggi, a Saudi national, visited the Saudi consulate on 2 October to get paperwork that would allow him to marry Cengiz.[70] Khashoggi was married and divorced three times. His first marriage was to Rawia al-Tunisi by whom he had two sons and two daughters.
Khashoggi was married and divorced three times. His first marriage was to Rawia al-Tunisi by whom he had two sons and two daughters.Cite error: The <ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page). By 2017, Khashoggi met Hatice Cengiz, a Turkish political scientist and researcher, at a conference hosted by the
Al Sharq Forum in London. Hatice Cengiz wrote analysis on the crisis at
Gulf Cooperation Council, and some of her papers were published by the Humanitarian and Social Research Center (INSAMER), the think tank of
IHH, a Turkish NGO active in more than 100 countries, close to the Muslim Brothers. The IHH is known for coordinating the
Gaza Freedom Flotilla in 2010. Khashoggi and Cengiz became engaged in 2018. He had bought an apartment in Istanbul and the furniture had already been ordered when Khashoggi entered the Saudi consulate on 2 October 2018 to retrieve his divorce papers - a prerequisite for their wedding planned for 3 October 2018 in Istanbul.
[1]
[2]
87.170.206.21 (
talk) 05:17, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
References
This was discussed (prior to Snowdon`s comments), diverted, disrupted, and eventually included in the `see also` of https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Killing_of_Jamal_Khashoggi&action§ion=29 . This should be included in Jamal Khasoggi`s article most certainly, please do. Replacing previous talk, see below; 126.3.54.112 ( talk) 15:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Early reports in the news when Khashoggi was reported missing, and commentary by news "experts", made mention of third-parties listening in on his fate by way of his Apple I-Watch (connects to his I-Phone), but those lines fizzled out after a week or so. There were at least 10 reports mentioning the I-Watch. Doubtful that the average reader of wikipedia knows the technical aspects of "smartphone sensor arrays", but perhaps do grasp the cybercrime of spyware, should the article be mentioning and linking to widespread illegal phonetapping by the Israelis, including inside embassies and consulates? 126.3.20.194 ( talk) 22:25, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
As of Tuesday the 23rd, there has been mention of a third cyber-related system, bringing it to I-Phone, Skype, and Israeli bugging of both.
126.3.20.194 (
talk) 08:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
A question about using middleeastmonitor pegasus article of April 2018 in Khasoggi-linked wikipedia articles; there shouldn`t be any objections to referring to it? 6 months before the killing they knew, and the timesofisrael newspaper article published on 2 October about pegasus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.3.54.112 ( talk) 15:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)