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It seems to me that the title of this article should be Jacob sheep, rather than Jacob (sheep). Does anyone else have an opinion on this? DiverDave ( talk) 19:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi, DiverDave. I'll be updating this page with my comments as I go along and will fill out the checklist at the end; please let me know if you have any comments or concerns. – anna 10:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Please don't be intimidated by the quantity — many are simple wording suggestions or queries.
You're free to ignore everything from here on out since Wizardman is wrapping this up, but see below -- I'll leave comments anyway; do what you like with them. Just suggestions! (Also applies to husbandry, Tay-Sachs, and lead.)
Otherwise it's quite an extensive article. Keep up the good work. Lightmouse ( talk) 20:25, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
What's the status of this review? Started well but it's been a couple weeks since any comments. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Are we still making progress on this review? WP:There is no deadline, but this review is #2 at WP:GAN/R#Old reviews, so it seems to be going more slowly than average. Sometimes that indicates only that the people are busy in real life (and there really is no deadline), but if you need help, please leave a note at WT:WikiProject Good articles. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I'll wrap up the review since it seems to have been abandoned. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Here are the issues I found:
I'll put the article on hold for a couple days and will pass it once these few issues are fixed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Putting this down here so as to avoid interfering -- DiverDave and Wizardman, I sincerely apologize for not finishing this up much sooner. I had absolutely intended to do so but was dealing with a variety of real life issues this month (and part of last) that prevented me from spending time on Wikipedia. Thank you for picking up where I left off.
I think I'll post all of my other comments under the above headings as a sort of peer review; hopefully neither of you mind. Once again, I apologize -- never intended to let this hang for so long! Anna talk 01:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, new to the commenting and not sure I have this right. I added a link to owner reviews of Jacob Sheep but it was removed as spam. http://www.rightpet.com/Livestock-poultryDetail/jacob-sheep Site is an educational site where owners do numerical and written reviews of the breeds/ species of animals they own. [[User:bretthodges| —Preceding undated comment added 19:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC).
I've made a few small changes to this page over the last few days, but thought I'd start a bit of discussion here before making too many more. I think there a number of problems here, of which the most glaring is WP:Weight: there's a huge section on Tay-Sachs disease, far larger than the section on the sheep in our page on that disease, but no discussion of the (rather interesting) genetic causes for the spotted coat and extra horns; there's a lot of Biblical mythology about other sheep in a far-away place and a long-ago time, but very little on the history of this sheep in Britain in the last few hundred years; there's a large and over-detailed section on the export of a small herd to Israel, but no discussion of other countries where these sheep are reared (Germany, Holland, where else?); there's a lot about Jacobs in the United States, where there are rather few of them, and very little about them in the UK, where there are rather a lot. There's fairly extended discussion of Fat-tailed sheep and Northern European short-tailed sheep, two breed groups that this sheep doesn't belong to. There's no mention of the origin given by the breed society (yes, not necessarily a reliable source) – imports from Spain by landowners as park animals – or of the supposed origin of the use of the "Jacob" name (I'll have to search for that, I forget now where I read it and whether it was a useable source).
I'm also uncomfortable about the identification of the four-horned ram skull in Bordeaux as belonging to this breed, as I see nothing in the original Flickr posting to suggest that it does. FunkMonk, your name is on that upload, can you remember why you chose that filename? And while we're at it, that's a nice Rubens, but those sheep are not this sheep – why is it relevant here?
Unless anyone offers any objection, I plan to prune the Tay-Sachs and Israel sections fairly drastically; but I'm fully open to reasons as to why I should not. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 21:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the text:
A [[breed society]], the Jacob Sheep Society, was formed in July 1969.{{r|jsc}}
to:
A [[breed society]], the Jacob Sheep Society, was formed in July 1969.{{r|jsc2}}
in order to fix the reference error I've created. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 12:47, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
<POV neutrality issues>
It has come to my attention that a Wikipedia user has consistently eliminating the section connecting the Jacob Sheep breed to Israel. Indeed there was a Jacob Sheep flock that made it to Israel, drawing national and international headlines in 2016, and the development is noteworthy to an encyclopedia article. The reason why the whole section has to be wiped out and any mention of Israel removed does not portray a fair description of developments regarding the breed.
The Jacob Sheep arrival in Israel has started a movement with many wanting the animals to eventually be the "national animal" and is an ongoing current event. The breed is linked to Israel whether Wiki user likes it or not and an attempt should be made to be factually correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 12:00, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Dear User, thanks for the feedback. There needs to be a way to accurately portray the developments that is happening. In Israel, the Jacob Sheep are a big deal and in fact the Hebrew Wiki has a section on Jacob Sheep in Israel. The article should make it clear that there are Jews that legitimately believe these are the flock of the Patriarch Jacob. How this is portrayed can be discussed, but should not be dismissed.
In addition, saying the Jacob Sheep originate in the United Kingdom is not an accurate depiction of the breed. The Jacob Sheep Society of the United Kingdom themselves suggest a Middle Eastern origin of the breed as does (to a lesser degree but still) the American Jacob Sheep Breeders Association. There are multiple verifiable facts and the article should not portray one over the other.
Further discussion and changes as to a more neutral article that depicts all the facts is welcome.
Dear User Theroadislong, there was a section with full references on the site but was continuously deleted. If I will reconstruct a section, I want guarantees hat the section will not be continuously deleted but rather discussed here to cover all relevant issues.
A new condensed section is being added on Israel. It will be backed by references.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
The new changes, in the form of a sentence is insubstantive. It is not simply a couple that thinks the sheep are from Genesis, but is a movement in the country. It should be its own section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
This is now the second time this section has been deleted from the talk section. The article is not neutral because only one point of view regarding origin (United Kingdom) is presented when both the Jacob Sheep Society of the UK and the Jacob Sheep Breeders Association suggest other origin.
In addition, the article minimizes any connection the animal has both to the Jewish people and Israel, and shutting this out by deleting is not going to change the truth behind the subject matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
The editing is locked (due to intermediate edits) for this article, making visual editing very difficult. Can the user that locked the editing please disable it allowing visual editing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 08:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm disturbed to find just how much the phrasing in this article resembles the phrasing of the sources. An example:
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Piebald sheep have been described throughout history, appearing in works of art from the Far East, Middle East, and Mediterranean regions. | Sheep with spots have been described in many cultures throughout history, appearing in works of art from the Far East, Middle East, and Mediterranean regions. |
In my opinion that goes well beyond close paraphrasing – I'll remove it in a moment. It was added with this edit in 2010. DiverDave, would you care to comment? Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:31, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Using retroviruses as genetic markers, the authors found that sheep dispersed across Eurasia and Africa via at least two separate migratory episodes. Descendants of the first migrations include the Mouflon, as well as ... A later migratory episode shaped the great majority of present-day breeds. | By using endogenous retroviruses as genetic markers, we found that sheep differentiated on the basis of their “retrotype” and morphological traits, dispersed across Eurasia and Africa via separate migratory episodes. Relicts of the first migrations include the Mouflon, as well as ... A later migratory episode, involving sheep with improved production traits, shaped the vast majority of present-day breeds. |
There's been a lot of adding and removing of maintenance tags to and from this article. Some of that was me – I added {{ disputed}} and {{ close paraphrasing}} a few days ago. Personally, I'd like those, and the {{ POV}} placed by someone else, to stay on the page until there's agreement here that those issues have been dealt with. Until the previous content has all been checked against the sources, I won't be confident that all the copyvio problems have been removed; the alternative is to blank the page and list it at WP:CP, but that seems a bit like overkill. And I certainly dispute the inclusion of a story from a religious text in a way that suggests that it might be factual. Beland has added a good paragraph, "Some believe …" (thank you, Beland!). But why do we need that here? This encyclopaedia should be repository of knowledge, not a repository of unfounded and misguided beliefs. I note, for example, that our article on the History of Earth does not contain any discussion at all of the many mythical explanations of the creation; that seems to me a good example which would we do well to follow here – except that here, a reference to the biblical story is needed to explain the modern name of the breed. I have made a request at WP:RX for some sources that might help improve the page. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 09:52, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
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There are a few sections above regarding weight, neutrality, copyvio and other issues. There have also been a lot of editing and discussion of editing of the article since then. So I was wondering where we stand with the article currently? Can we remove the tags or does it need to be delisted. @ DiverDave, Anna, Justlettersandnumbers, FunkMonk, ZionistLantern, Theroadislong, and Beland:. AIRcorn (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
A Pokémon named Dubwool is based on the Jacob sheep. Can you mention it on this article? 174.24.112.230 ( talk) 02:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jacob sheep article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | Jacob sheep has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
It seems to me that the title of this article should be Jacob sheep, rather than Jacob (sheep). Does anyone else have an opinion on this? DiverDave ( talk) 19:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi, DiverDave. I'll be updating this page with my comments as I go along and will fill out the checklist at the end; please let me know if you have any comments or concerns. – anna 10:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Please don't be intimidated by the quantity — many are simple wording suggestions or queries.
You're free to ignore everything from here on out since Wizardman is wrapping this up, but see below -- I'll leave comments anyway; do what you like with them. Just suggestions! (Also applies to husbandry, Tay-Sachs, and lead.)
Otherwise it's quite an extensive article. Keep up the good work. Lightmouse ( talk) 20:25, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
What's the status of this review? Started well but it's been a couple weeks since any comments. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Are we still making progress on this review? WP:There is no deadline, but this review is #2 at WP:GAN/R#Old reviews, so it seems to be going more slowly than average. Sometimes that indicates only that the people are busy in real life (and there really is no deadline), but if you need help, please leave a note at WT:WikiProject Good articles. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I'll wrap up the review since it seems to have been abandoned. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Here are the issues I found:
I'll put the article on hold for a couple days and will pass it once these few issues are fixed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Putting this down here so as to avoid interfering -- DiverDave and Wizardman, I sincerely apologize for not finishing this up much sooner. I had absolutely intended to do so but was dealing with a variety of real life issues this month (and part of last) that prevented me from spending time on Wikipedia. Thank you for picking up where I left off.
I think I'll post all of my other comments under the above headings as a sort of peer review; hopefully neither of you mind. Once again, I apologize -- never intended to let this hang for so long! Anna talk 01:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, new to the commenting and not sure I have this right. I added a link to owner reviews of Jacob Sheep but it was removed as spam. http://www.rightpet.com/Livestock-poultryDetail/jacob-sheep Site is an educational site where owners do numerical and written reviews of the breeds/ species of animals they own. [[User:bretthodges| —Preceding undated comment added 19:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC).
I've made a few small changes to this page over the last few days, but thought I'd start a bit of discussion here before making too many more. I think there a number of problems here, of which the most glaring is WP:Weight: there's a huge section on Tay-Sachs disease, far larger than the section on the sheep in our page on that disease, but no discussion of the (rather interesting) genetic causes for the spotted coat and extra horns; there's a lot of Biblical mythology about other sheep in a far-away place and a long-ago time, but very little on the history of this sheep in Britain in the last few hundred years; there's a large and over-detailed section on the export of a small herd to Israel, but no discussion of other countries where these sheep are reared (Germany, Holland, where else?); there's a lot about Jacobs in the United States, where there are rather few of them, and very little about them in the UK, where there are rather a lot. There's fairly extended discussion of Fat-tailed sheep and Northern European short-tailed sheep, two breed groups that this sheep doesn't belong to. There's no mention of the origin given by the breed society (yes, not necessarily a reliable source) – imports from Spain by landowners as park animals – or of the supposed origin of the use of the "Jacob" name (I'll have to search for that, I forget now where I read it and whether it was a useable source).
I'm also uncomfortable about the identification of the four-horned ram skull in Bordeaux as belonging to this breed, as I see nothing in the original Flickr posting to suggest that it does. FunkMonk, your name is on that upload, can you remember why you chose that filename? And while we're at it, that's a nice Rubens, but those sheep are not this sheep – why is it relevant here?
Unless anyone offers any objection, I plan to prune the Tay-Sachs and Israel sections fairly drastically; but I'm fully open to reasons as to why I should not. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 21:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the text:
A [[breed society]], the Jacob Sheep Society, was formed in July 1969.{{r|jsc}}
to:
A [[breed society]], the Jacob Sheep Society, was formed in July 1969.{{r|jsc2}}
in order to fix the reference error I've created. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 12:47, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
<POV neutrality issues>
It has come to my attention that a Wikipedia user has consistently eliminating the section connecting the Jacob Sheep breed to Israel. Indeed there was a Jacob Sheep flock that made it to Israel, drawing national and international headlines in 2016, and the development is noteworthy to an encyclopedia article. The reason why the whole section has to be wiped out and any mention of Israel removed does not portray a fair description of developments regarding the breed.
The Jacob Sheep arrival in Israel has started a movement with many wanting the animals to eventually be the "national animal" and is an ongoing current event. The breed is linked to Israel whether Wiki user likes it or not and an attempt should be made to be factually correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 12:00, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Dear User, thanks for the feedback. There needs to be a way to accurately portray the developments that is happening. In Israel, the Jacob Sheep are a big deal and in fact the Hebrew Wiki has a section on Jacob Sheep in Israel. The article should make it clear that there are Jews that legitimately believe these are the flock of the Patriarch Jacob. How this is portrayed can be discussed, but should not be dismissed.
In addition, saying the Jacob Sheep originate in the United Kingdom is not an accurate depiction of the breed. The Jacob Sheep Society of the United Kingdom themselves suggest a Middle Eastern origin of the breed as does (to a lesser degree but still) the American Jacob Sheep Breeders Association. There are multiple verifiable facts and the article should not portray one over the other.
Further discussion and changes as to a more neutral article that depicts all the facts is welcome.
Dear User Theroadislong, there was a section with full references on the site but was continuously deleted. If I will reconstruct a section, I want guarantees hat the section will not be continuously deleted but rather discussed here to cover all relevant issues.
A new condensed section is being added on Israel. It will be backed by references.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
The new changes, in the form of a sentence is insubstantive. It is not simply a couple that thinks the sheep are from Genesis, but is a movement in the country. It should be its own section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
This is now the second time this section has been deleted from the talk section. The article is not neutral because only one point of view regarding origin (United Kingdom) is presented when both the Jacob Sheep Society of the UK and the Jacob Sheep Breeders Association suggest other origin.
In addition, the article minimizes any connection the animal has both to the Jewish people and Israel, and shutting this out by deleting is not going to change the truth behind the subject matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
The editing is locked (due to intermediate edits) for this article, making visual editing very difficult. Can the user that locked the editing please disable it allowing visual editing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZionistLantern ( talk • contribs) 08:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm disturbed to find just how much the phrasing in this article resembles the phrasing of the sources. An example:
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Piebald sheep have been described throughout history, appearing in works of art from the Far East, Middle East, and Mediterranean regions. | Sheep with spots have been described in many cultures throughout history, appearing in works of art from the Far East, Middle East, and Mediterranean regions. |
In my opinion that goes well beyond close paraphrasing – I'll remove it in a moment. It was added with this edit in 2010. DiverDave, would you care to comment? Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:31, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Using retroviruses as genetic markers, the authors found that sheep dispersed across Eurasia and Africa via at least two separate migratory episodes. Descendants of the first migrations include the Mouflon, as well as ... A later migratory episode shaped the great majority of present-day breeds. | By using endogenous retroviruses as genetic markers, we found that sheep differentiated on the basis of their “retrotype” and morphological traits, dispersed across Eurasia and Africa via separate migratory episodes. Relicts of the first migrations include the Mouflon, as well as ... A later migratory episode, involving sheep with improved production traits, shaped the vast majority of present-day breeds. |
There's been a lot of adding and removing of maintenance tags to and from this article. Some of that was me – I added {{ disputed}} and {{ close paraphrasing}} a few days ago. Personally, I'd like those, and the {{ POV}} placed by someone else, to stay on the page until there's agreement here that those issues have been dealt with. Until the previous content has all been checked against the sources, I won't be confident that all the copyvio problems have been removed; the alternative is to blank the page and list it at WP:CP, but that seems a bit like overkill. And I certainly dispute the inclusion of a story from a religious text in a way that suggests that it might be factual. Beland has added a good paragraph, "Some believe …" (thank you, Beland!). But why do we need that here? This encyclopaedia should be repository of knowledge, not a repository of unfounded and misguided beliefs. I note, for example, that our article on the History of Earth does not contain any discussion at all of the many mythical explanations of the creation; that seems to me a good example which would we do well to follow here – except that here, a reference to the biblical story is needed to explain the modern name of the breed. I have made a request at WP:RX for some sources that might help improve the page. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 09:52, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jacob sheep. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:11, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
There are a few sections above regarding weight, neutrality, copyvio and other issues. There have also been a lot of editing and discussion of editing of the article since then. So I was wondering where we stand with the article currently? Can we remove the tags or does it need to be delisted. @ DiverDave, Anna, Justlettersandnumbers, FunkMonk, ZionistLantern, Theroadislong, and Beland:. AIRcorn (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
A Pokémon named Dubwool is based on the Jacob sheep. Can you mention it on this article? 174.24.112.230 ( talk) 02:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)