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In Early life Yuri was spelled two ways Yuri and lurii, is that a mistake or is it just spelled differently because of translation? Oʞ eanose ✎ 12:56, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Ivan Grozniy was Tsar of Rus' not Russia ! Rus' was until 1721 and became Russia in 1721(Petr Great). U can read this date and about Petr Great in wiki. Serega(27.01.2016)
p.s. and he was Grozniy, not terrible. You can mean this as stern. Too many mistakes in article. Serega(20.02.2016)
Wrong you are. Moskovia, not Rus. Those Asian despots had no connections to Rus. Arkony ( talk) 13:46, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
LOL !!!! Article was edited after my words. And now absent word Russia because was Rus'. It is funny. Now appear word Grozniy - more better ! But article was stupid and it is now for fools. I am not going to say true more here. It was so funny to read english wiki. I asked about mistakes many people for fun. Serega(12.08.2016) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.242.129.237 ( talk) 20:04, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
From the article:
Question: Was he born in 1534 or 1533? Sources talk I believe he was the czar in 1533, but i'm not sure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bobadeba ( talk • contribs) 15 February 2007.
Exact translation of Ivan Grozny's nickname and toning down of his presumably "mad" character, as well as the commentary about the goal of Oprichina was supplemented by G.N.Boiko-Slastion on Nov.30,2003.
Considering that many historians do indeed judge Ivan to have been deranged, I think this article should consider this view as well as the view that Ivan was a farsighted, sane statesman. As is the article is learning towards the sane side more than is appropriate.
A link to the Eisenstein films (or to Eisenstein himself until the articles are written) would be appropriate.
He was not born on janurary 18 1993
Ivan IV certainly WAS born on 18 Jan, 1993. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 ( talk) 02:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Dude, where's this dude's library? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.158.136 ( talk) 21:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Ivan IV officially and publicly abandoned the title of tsar in 1547following the destruction of Moscow by Devlet Girey, the han of Tatars, and a Tatar Sain-Bulat, or Semen Bekbulatovich was proclaimed tsar (Muscove tsars were vassals of Cimean Tatars, who were heirs of the Khans of the Golden Horde). Does anyone have information about this event? Compay 00:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why does the first picture have the caption "Tsar Ioann IV the Terrible"? In what relevant language is he Ioann? Is this Latin? I can't think what else it would be. In both English and Russian he is "Ivan", though of course the vowels have different values and the accent falls differently.
And for the second one: "In imitation of Henry VIII of England, Ivan married 7 times…" "In imitation of…" seems very unlikely, is there a citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Why are both used in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harris0 ( talk • contribs) 16 Dec 2006.
What else?
The overall impression of this article – it written by someone who neglect to read books.
I wonder if this article is being edited by non-native english speakers. The sentence "Upon his father's death, he formally came to the throne at the age of three, but his minority was dominated by the strong personality of his mother Elena Glinskaya" is just horrible. I have tried to edit some of the mangled writing in this article, only to see it reverted back to the previous rubbish. Cwiki 11:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Remove all the garbage and the sentence is changed to - "His father died when Ivan was only three. He ascended the throne however a regency was required during his minority. His mother, Elena Glinskaya assumed power."
I'm glad you agree with my basic point. I enjoyed our debate about the sentence I used as an example but that was a sideshow. You're right about the semicolon. I don't normally use semicolons in informal communications such as this; however, given that I'm banging on about stilted writing, I should have been more careful. You're also right about the use of the word "formally". The sentence was so badly written that I didn't get that the author was trying to say "He formally came to the throne at the age of three, but during his minority, the country was ruled by his mother". Also, I explained how I would reword the sentence as stated. I didn't necessarily say that's how I would write it in the first place.
Cwiki
12:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The page is definitely edited by non-native English speakers, which I find annoying. I myself is non-native English speaker and refrain from writing or editing anything on English language pages.
However I had to delete this sentence here: "Anna Glinsky (Jakšić) had a very significant role in the upbringing of little Ivan Vasilyevich. Since he left early without parents, Vasili III and Elenа, grandma Anna Jakšić of Serbia she took care of her grandson, it is certain, she met with the Serbian tradition."
What I find highly irritating is that the contributor, surely a Serbian, keeps adding this sentence back. I can understand he may want to underline his country's contribution to shaping Ivan's character and therefore shaping Russian history, but either he should do it in correct English or should stick to the pages written in Serbo-Croat, or whatever language it is they speak in Serbia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Bianconeri78 (
talk •
contribs)
11:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
An anonymous user wants links to St. Basil's Cathedral to redirect to the nonexistent link St. Vasili. I do not think this should be the case, but am not going to keep reverting it. I think the argument is that the cathedral is called "St. Vasili" by local people, but this is English Wikipedia. Blue Rasberry 20:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Why would a drunken Boyar putting his dirty boots on Ivan's bed contribute to his mental instability? Cwiki 10:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I refer to a passage in this article- "In one letter, he painfully recalls an episode when one drunken boyar put his dirty boots on Ivan's bed. These traumatic experiences doubtlessly contributed to his hatred of the boyars and to his mental instability." I'm trying to rid this article of garbage but it keeps on getting reverted. What do you mean by saying "Ivan's brains were sharper than ours". More garbage. Cwiki 10:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon, these are typical secondary sources. They were written in the 20th or 21st centuries. Primary sources should date to the 16th century. Are you sure that your additions are not an urban legend? -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I found an article about Andrey Kurbsky, doing a random article search. There is no mention of Andrey Kurbsky in the Ivan IV article. I added a link under SEE ALSO, but someone who is more knowledgable than me may wish to add it in to the main article. -- KVox 20:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
At Talk:Jan I Olbracht it's been suggested that perhaps the easiest way to enforce the wiki conventions on naming of rulers would be to move all articles to the proper title and this one was given as an example. Any ideas on John IV of Muscovy? // Halibu tt 20:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Overall really badly edited. "What had been by far the richest area of Russia became the poorest" - What area are we talking about?
"In a dispute with Novgorod Republic, Ivan ordered the Oprichniks to murder the inhabitants of this city. Between thirty and forty thousand were killed. Yet the official death toll named 1,500 of Novgorod big people (nobility) and only mentioned about the same number of smaller people." -- It is not fact-based. First of all, "murder of inhabitants" needs to be re-worded. I was not the exact mission. 30-40 thousand is way too high. Estimates at Novgorod population of this time are about 20-30 thousand total and number of victims 2-3 thousand of which nobility stands at few hundred. Can someone double check this with reputable source (Skrynnikov?)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.226.231.199 ( talk • contribs) 22 June 2006.
Is it possible to get a higher-resolution image of the Ilya Repin painting (Ivan the Terrible killing his son)? The particularly haunting expression on Ivan's face doesn't come through in the current small version. Robotman1974 09:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Also i do suggest remove the image of painting named "Tsar Ivan IV mourns Anastasia Romanovna. 1875 painting by Grigory Semyonovich Sedov (1836-1886)" cause it is completely misleading showing a guy in his 60's or 70's while Ivan was young lad in his 30's when Anastasia died. I know that it is probably intentionally made by artistic means but on site like wikipedia that is also educational it is unhistorical and misleading...So not good.
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It is very frustrating to see a rather neutral article ruined by tendentious editing... :( -- Ghirla -трёп- 18:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
1.
Previous text: """ In a dispute with the wealthy city of Novgorod, Ivan ordered the Oprichniks to murder inhabitants of this city, which was never to regain its former prosperity. Between thirty and forty thousand might have been killed during the infamous Massacre of Novgorod in 1570 """
This paragraph contains a lot of mistakes.
2.
It is incorrect to declare famine and the devastation of Russia as result of the Oprichnina only. Authors of this opnion forget the Big Drought and the epidemics of plague in 1560s, the Polish-Lithuanian and Swedish raids on Russian territory (devastation of region Smolensk, Pskov, Novgorod, Yaroslavl, South-West etc), attacks of Tatars of Crimea (They even burnt down Moscow), the trading blockade carried out by Swedes, Poles and Hanseatic League.
In 1560s the grain prices have grown ten times. Epidemic of the plague killed 10,000 in Novgorod. In 1570 the plague killed 600-1000 in Moscow daily. (R.Skrynnikov, "Ivan Grosny", M., AST, 2001)
3.
Ivan realized objective centralization tendencies. In Europe these tendencies conducted to overcoming of the feudal privileges and dissociation and to the building of the absolutistic state. It is necessary to remember the bloody acts of Henry VIII (England), Charles IX (France), Erik XIV (Sweden) and Spanish kings.
The Oprichnina was not the product of Ivan's paranoia. In the regions of Oprichnina (the Northeast of Russia) the number of large noble landowners was small. Basing on the Oprichnina, tsar wanted to suppress the nobility of the Southwest and the West of Russia, who did not support his struggle against Poland, Lithuania and Sweden.
4. My text: "In 1552 tsar won Kazan Khanate, whose armies repeatedly devastated the Northeast of Russia (ref), and annexed its territory. 1556 he annexed Astrakhan Khanate and destroyed the largest slave market on the river Volga. These gains of tsar complicated the migration of aggressive nomadic hordes from Asia to Europe through Volga and transformed Russia into a multinational and multiconfessional state."... "He introduced the local self-management in rural regions, mainly in the Northeast of Russia, populated by the state peasantry. What in this versions frustrate my opponent?
Ben-Velvel 18:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Now that section says that there were up to 60,000 killed - in a town of 10-20,000. What the hell? Somebody fix it! I don't know enough to, but I can sure recognize an error like that when I see it! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.226.52.221 (
talk)
03:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
In looking at the massacre in 1570, you could look at the sources in the Wikipedia article specificially on the massacre; The casualty figures are not just for the town, but for the whole district, and it is unclear what the population was - I would say most population figures for the medieval and early modern periods are guesses, as there aren't very good records. There was no census and the land cadastres (pistsovye knigi) are incomplete).
Ruslan Skryinnikov argued that perhaps only about 6,000 were killed, based on prayer lists the tsar sent to the Kirillov Monastery and Skryatov, but those may be only the most important people (boyars, middle-servicemen, clergymen) and not the peasantry; The figure of 60,000 is from German accounts at the time.
No one really understands why Ivan implemented the Oprichnina. There is the argument that it was to suppress the boyars, but then a lot of boyars were in the Oprichnina and most of the victims appear to be peasants. Skrynnikov, Zimin, and others who have studied it aren't really sure why Ivan implemented it, so it very well might be Ivan's paranoia. There was an article a few years back that argued Ivan was just another renaissance prince (I believe it was by Michael Cherniavsky, but I don't know how well that claim has been accepted. Ivan liked to thow animals off of towers, he scalded peasants with hot wine when they came to petition him, and he found ways to kill people beyond the normal execution of traitors and criminals - he is reported to have sewn Archbishop Pimen of Novgorod up in a bearskin and set dogs on him. It seems there were some mental problems, if not paranoia, something else. When his sarcophagus was opened in the Soviet period, his spine was fused and it is thought that may have put pressure on the spinal column and caused nervous or mental disorders. So it seems it was more than the harsh realities of rule in the sixteenth century that made Ivan do what he did.
--
Mcpaul1998 (
talk)
00:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Ivan IV(Ivan the Terrible) was born in Kolomenskoye NEAR Moscow not actually there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by L 2 Da U ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
It is true that Kolomenskoe was near Moscow in 1530; it is now well within the city of Moscow, four stops on the Metro from Teatralnaya on the Second Line, four miles or so from the Kremlin. -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I have a map here published by Rand McNally & Company that indicates that Siberia was acquired by Russia between 1598 and 1689. Since Ivan dies before 1598, his reign could not have seen the conquest of Siberia as indicated in the first paragraph of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.93.39 ( talk • contribs) 25 March 2007.
As far as I know Ermak and his cossaks defeated the khanate of Siberia in 1581 near the place where the city of Tobolsk currently stands. So you can say Ivan conquered Siberia, even though Russian troops reached the Pacific shores much later due to the vastness of Siberia. Bianconeri78 ( talk) 12:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Ivan Grozny is the Russian name given to Ivan IV, almost invariably translated as "Ivan the Terrible" into English, but a reference should be made to its literal Russian meaning; "Ivan the Threatening". While a minor point from a historical point of view, it should perhaps be mentioned as it does illustrate the subtle, but definetly different takes on the character from the West and in English-speaking countries. Eddie max 23:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Threatening doesn't quite do it justice either. It means 'terrible' in the old sense of the word, mighty and awe-inspiring. A russian friend said 'inspiring reverential dread' is an excellent phrase to describe the adjective. English just doesn't have the particular vocabulary for a direct translation. While a few people still know the old usage of 'terrible' its very unlikely that succeeding generations will, so perhaps a better translation is in order. My Russian professor suggested 'thunderous' but that doesn't quite sound correct in english.(S.L)
I think "Formidable" (as in "formidable foe") may be a better translation. Terrible translates as "Страшный" or "Ужасный", first one means "awe-inspiring", and second one can have two different meangings - "awe-inspiring" and "very bad", so it's not the best choice of a word. ( Ellestar ( talk) 14:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC))
THIS HELPED ME A LOT IN MY ASSINGMENT. THANKS. ♠ŚиíþéЯ♠ 03:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I've heard (not knowing Russian myself) that in the name "Peter the Great", the "Great" represents "grozny" in the original Russian. So can't we call the earlier tsar Ivan the Great?
Note: I once heard of a lecture in which a historian started by explaining that "terrible" was not a good translation. After subsequently summarizing Ivan's career he concluded: "Now that I think about it, he really WAS pretty terrible". CharlesTheBold 04:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter the Great is Pyotr Velikii. Ivan the Terrible is Ivan Grozny. Different words with very different meanings.
I don't speak Russian, but in context, perhaps "Ivan the Terrifying" best gets the point across? - CronoDAS 05:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Ivan III (r. 1462-1505)was "Ivan the Great".
Grozny implies awe-inspiring and demanding respect, that he is harsh toward the wicked and good to the just - there is an aspect of justice in the term in the 1500s; Similarly Russians spoke of Jesus as the Terrible or Fearful Judge and of the Last Judgment as "The Fearful Judgment" (Strashnyi Sud); not that Jesus is terrible; he is good to just and good people but justly punishes the wicked. There is an icon know as "The Savior of the Terrible Eyes" now in the Tretiakov Gallery in Moscow. The _Domostroi_, written by Metropolitan Makary, a main advisor to Ivan in his early reign, also refers to a father being "grozen" in his household. See Maureen Perrie's book _The Image of Ivan the Terrible in Folklore_, pp. 62-3; Cherniavsky, "Ivan the Terrible as Renaissance Prince."; Domostroi Section 14: How to teach Children and Save them through Fear.
That said, I would argue that he is known to the English-speaking world as Ivan the Terrible, and calling him Ivan the Dread or Ivan the Awesome, or Ivan the Fear Inspiring but Orthodoxy Tsar confuses rather than elucidates. A point should be made to define his sobriquet, but he should not be "renamed". -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
As someone who is new to researching Ivan, I find the addition of the "Terrible" misleading. I assumed the English translation of Terrible and preventing others from knowing its true nature does a disservice to Wikepedia users like myself. My 2 cents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 ( talk) 06:22, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
"Grozny" had been "formidable" in Russian since the 16th century up to now, but no to my knowledge source before the 18th century actually calls Ivan IV "Grozny". Vladimir Dahl is of little relevance here, since he lived in the 19th century and described later folklore (which he believed to be archaic, but which wasn't necessarily that). I would like to know when the English epithet "Terrible" first appeared. I would be happy if some native English speaker made any reference to the first attestation of it. As of present, the sobriquet section is very amateurish. 176.15.77.168 ( talk) 19:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Not suggesting an edit, but my hobby in philology compels me to wonder if "intimidating" would be a valid interpretation of "грозный" 2601:98A:4000:C980:0:0:0:6E24 ( talk) 15:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC) InitHello ( talk) 15:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
UPDATE: Slavic language speaker here. I can confirm that the term "grozny" translates almost directly to "fearsome" I am surprised this translation is not used more consistently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.94.101.154 ( talk) 16:00, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The abstract notes that Terrible in this context is its archaic form of 'inspiring fear.' Perhaps it should, for clarity, give an alternate translation to exemplify this, "Ivan the Awesome" or "Ivan the Fearsome."
I think failing to describe the archaic nature of the adjective "Terrible" is confusing. I'd like to expand the sentence in the introduction
by replacing it with
71.41.210.146 ( talk) 18:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"Terrible", "dread" etc. What's the difference? LOL. He was a horrible person and a crappy ruler and anyone with any sense knows it. Russians excluded, of course.
I've been unable to detect a single reasonable edit made in the main body of this article since last year. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
"Degradation of Wikipedia"? - wouldn't that imply that Wikipedia was some respectable, august, or honorable institution in order for it to be debased? Isn't it just a mass of people writing what they want on any subject under the sun? :) -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm unregistered so I can't. Someone remove the broken BBC link at the bottom. 88.114.251.167 13:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
If you have an argument with someone, and strike him in the head with a staff, how exactly does that constitute an "accident"? Manslaughter rather than murder, by modern evaluation, but hardly an accident. Mapjc ( talk) 16:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#IvanT Looks like a blog source, which list references. Not reliable. Tyrenius ( talk) 02:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The infobox mentions only Feodor I as his offspring and only Anastasia of Russia as his wife.
But he had 6 children with Anastasia - Anna, Maria, Dmitri (1), Ivan, Evodokia, and Feodor. And he married 6 more times (people talk of the 6 wives of Henry VIII, but never about the 7 wives of Ivan the Terrible) and produced 2 more children.
There was Maria Cherkasskaya (1561), who produced a son Vassily. Then came Maria Sobakina (1571), Anna Koltoskaya (1574), Anna Vasilshchikov (1576), Vassilisa Malentieva (1577), and finally Maria Nagaya (1580), who produced a final child, Dmitri (2). [3]
In the article we mention his son Ivan, whom he killed on 16 November 1581. But there’s some suggestion that he also killed Dmitri (1), on 3 July 1583 (or maybe they were getting confused with Ivan). Dmitri (2) supposedly died aged 9, in 1591, but False Dmitri I claimed that he had survived and that he was him.
These details all need to get into the article. -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Ivan married a Kabard princess [4]. What was her name? -- 71.108.3.62 ( talk) 11:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Did Ivan at any time have more than one wife at the same time?-- 71.108.3.62 ( talk) 11:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
No he did not, but he had innumerable mistresses.
In the early reign section, it reads "According to his own letters, Ivan customarily felt neglected and offended by the mighty boyars from the Shuisky and Belsky families. (These traumatic experiences may have contributed to his hatred of the boyars and to his mental instability. Alternatively, the negative feelings revealed in his letters may have been a reflection of his disagreeable temperament.)"
Isn't the part inside the parinthesis just speculation? Shouldn't that part be removed?
GBizzle ( talk) 05:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
The source is an article from Rodina magazine. The web version only provides the beginning of the article but the material is reasonably clear (and a public knowledge anyway). I will add another sources over recognition of Ivan IV claims Alex Bakharev ( talk) 07:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article shows a photo of Ivan looking over a woman: "Tsar Ivan IV admires his sixth wife Vasilisa Melentyevna (while sleeping)." However, if you click on the link to his first wife, Anastasia, you see the same picture with a different caption: "Ivan the Terrible at the deathbed of his first and most-beloved wife, Anastasia Romanovna." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.231.179 ( talk) 20:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I was looking up Ivan the Terrible after playing AoEIII, thinking who exactly was this guy... This page scared me. I believe the introduction section needs to be redone. It seems really messy and the thoughts seem rather scattered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.36.75.51 ( talk) 17:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mention that he opened Archangelsk as a major port? That was pretty significant, he opened up trade with the English. 149.152.191.3 ( talk) 21:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, should we mention how the English got there in the first place? 149.152.191.3 ( talk) 21:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I have no idea who keeps putting on this article that Ivan IV was murdered, but the sources they use either are about something else entirely or state that the idea is very unlikely. If you're going to make a statement like that it needs to be backed up with real sources.
possible? Louboi ( talk) 23:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
"The English mistranslation of the historical name of Ivan IV stems from traditional American propaganda's intention to distort and demonize Russian history."
LOL. The Russians are pros at distorting their own history. Half of which they don't know themselves b/c anyone who told the truth was murdered, jailed, banished or all of the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.95.24 ( talk) 10:25, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the sort of rhetoric that wiki editors should avoid. There is no reason such a proposition should be given credence as historians as far back as the 19th century have called Ivan “The Terrible” or “The Mad”. The opening line should be re-written to avoid the inaccuracy and bias reflected therein.
This opening appears biased, however, your point about it being mentioned "as far back as the 19th century" in no way debunks the original claim. Just thought I'd point that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 ( talk) 06:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
DeusImperator ( talk) 05:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved per consensus below that, in this case, the common name should be used rather than the MOS regnal number style.-- rgpk ( comment) 23:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Ivan IV of Russia → Ivan the Terrible — The deficiencies of the translation to "terrible" aside, this is by far the most common name by which Ivan is known in English. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it's what should be used (until, perhaps, a better translation takes hold in the English speaking world). -- Powers T 16:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Only about roughly 6 editors took part in this RM & there's a 4-2 in favour of moving. I'd hardly call this a consensus to move to Ivan the Terrible. GoodDay ( talk) 23:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that this move succeeded, I've proposed that Catherine II of Russia be moved Catherine the Great by the same reasoning. See: Talk:Catherine II of Russia#Requested move. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry but I am unable to understand the following line:
One billion acres making 130 km2 while this all express Russian state of Khanates of Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberia included. Any explanation will be appreciated.-- قیصرانی ( talk) 13:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
This comment was hidden within the article. I thought it would be better to bring it to the fore on the talk page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 07:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Please don't justify tyranism by mental problems. Modern researchers, basing on the analysis of the remains of Ivan, assume the mercury poisoning of tsar (as well as at his mother Helena Glinskaya). The mercury poisoning destroyed his mental health.
Notice that "the" is sometimes left out when it should be there in Russian articles. Just saying. English avoids overuse but it's still used or it sounds like a Russian speaking English, or a Yorkshire person "put kettle on". Manytexts ( talk) 13:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The article is chaotic, pathetically emotional, and lacks any structure.
A good example is that formation Oprichnina and Crimean raids are mentioned TWICE, as if these parts were written by different editors. At the same time article does not tell how and why Ivan launched Oprichnina (it completely misses the story of his staged abdication), and lacks any mention of Battle of Molodi.
We need it to be completely re-arranged. Russian article has a good structure to copy:
So the first sentences gives his name twice, as something in cyrillic which apparently transliterates as "Ivan Chetvyorty" and then another in cyrillic which transliterates as "Ivan Grozny". And the OGG soundbite for these BOTH comes out as "Ivan Grozny". Now I know there are issues with Russian transliteration, but you can't get "Chetvyorty" from "Grozny". Now we all know what "Grozny" means, what does "Chetyvorty" mean ? Eregli bob ( talk) 06:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I think "Четвёртый-Chetvyorty-Fourth" must be deleted. I've never seen similar things in other articles. Who needs the transcription of russian numerals? BTW he was Ivan I until 19 century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.136.201 ( talk) 15:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
At birth, he received the name of Iona, baptized by Ioann Vasilievich. When diplomats mistakenly called him Ivan arose international conflicts and about it all who were interested in History known. See Talk Marfa Sobakina. АСмуров ( talk) 04:36, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Ivan the Terrible - означает Иван Ужасный, это не верно!!!(Terrible - страшный, ужасный, грозный, жуткий, ужасающий, чудовищный, кошмарный, отвратительный, убийственный), "Грозный"(Grozny) - означает, грозящий, угрожающий, тот у кого грозный вид, который пугает окружающих, Menacing (in some states known as brandishing) is a violent crime in most state jurisdictions of the United States. Although the wording and degrees of offense vary slightly from state to state, the criminal act of menacing generally consists of displaying a weapon to a person with the intention of threatening them with bodily harm from said weapon. - это близкое по значению определение!)) Поясняю еще раз, это не значит что он был страшным или уродливым или пугающим, это значит что один его вид грозил всем окружающим и вселял в сердца страх перед Царем, который был 180 см роста, имел атлетическое сложение, это значит что по тем временам он был великаном, был умен и суров! Смотрите реконструкцию Mikhail Gerasimov! Grozny - означает выражение его лица, содержащее в себе угрозу, грозный взгляд. SpecialAdviser ( talk) 08:53, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Пусть перевод будет популярным, но мы как носители языка не вкладываем в слово "Грозный" отрицательной коннотации. И не имеем в виду "ужас-ужас", слово родственно слову "гроза" и по смыслу должно переводиться как "строгий", "бескопромиссный", в плоть до "громовержца". Предлагаю это озвучить! 80.78.120.89 ( talk) 02:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Leo I, King of Armenia > Isabella, Queen of Armenia > Leo II, King of Armenia > Rita of Armenia > Andronikos III Palaiologos > John V Palaiologos > Manuel II Palaiologos > Thomas Palaiologos > Sophia Palaiologina > Vasili III of Russia > Ivan the Terrible
Michael VIII Palaiologos > Andronikos II Palaiologos > Michael IX Palaiologos > Andronikos III Palaiologos > John V Palaiologos > Manuel II Palaiologos > Thomas Palaiologos > Sophia Palaiologina > Vasili III of Russia > Ivan the Terrible
Ivan is descended from the last Armenian King and the last Greek Emperor. Isn't this worthy of noting? -- Steverci ( talk) 17:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Ivan the allegedly "terrible" is a totally TERRIBLY wrong and ignorant translation, this includes also the western lies about his "terrible" leadership... Ivan the dreadful is the right translation of his name, not "terrible". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.239.105 ( talk) 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
It's not the wrong translation. The lies aren't western either. They're yours. He was a horrible man no matter what you choose to call him. LOL. "Ivan the Wonderful" right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.156 ( talk) 00:58, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ivan the Terrible/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article does not cite its sources. Kaldari 00:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC) |
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On the assumption that Czar is the equivalent of Caesar and a claim to be a Roman Empire ruler, would it not be better to spell it Czar instead of Tsar, since Czar looks more like Caesar? ( PeacePeace ( talk) 01:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC))
When in category, Ivan the Terrible is under T
Is there a specific reason he's under T and not I? Cinefan Cinefan ( talk) 01:11, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Someone added a default template which used "Ivan" as a first name and Terrible as a surname. I removed it. Thanks for noticing. Dimadick ( talk) 21:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Actually "terrible" aptly applies to every*single*Russian ruler since day one including the current putz. Why mince words? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.95.24 ( talk) 10:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Anyone know if Ivan had a signature when writing his name? 81.108.244.153 ( talk) 22:07, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
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In Early life Yuri was spelled two ways Yuri and lurii, is that a mistake or is it just spelled differently because of translation? Oʞ eanose ✎ 12:56, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Ivan Grozniy was Tsar of Rus' not Russia ! Rus' was until 1721 and became Russia in 1721(Petr Great). U can read this date and about Petr Great in wiki. Serega(27.01.2016)
p.s. and he was Grozniy, not terrible. You can mean this as stern. Too many mistakes in article. Serega(20.02.2016)
Wrong you are. Moskovia, not Rus. Those Asian despots had no connections to Rus. Arkony ( talk) 13:46, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
LOL !!!! Article was edited after my words. And now absent word Russia because was Rus'. It is funny. Now appear word Grozniy - more better ! But article was stupid and it is now for fools. I am not going to say true more here. It was so funny to read english wiki. I asked about mistakes many people for fun. Serega(12.08.2016) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.242.129.237 ( talk) 20:04, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
From the article:
Question: Was he born in 1534 or 1533? Sources talk I believe he was the czar in 1533, but i'm not sure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bobadeba ( talk • contribs) 15 February 2007.
Exact translation of Ivan Grozny's nickname and toning down of his presumably "mad" character, as well as the commentary about the goal of Oprichina was supplemented by G.N.Boiko-Slastion on Nov.30,2003.
Considering that many historians do indeed judge Ivan to have been deranged, I think this article should consider this view as well as the view that Ivan was a farsighted, sane statesman. As is the article is learning towards the sane side more than is appropriate.
A link to the Eisenstein films (or to Eisenstein himself until the articles are written) would be appropriate.
He was not born on janurary 18 1993
Ivan IV certainly WAS born on 18 Jan, 1993. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 ( talk) 02:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Dude, where's this dude's library? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.158.136 ( talk) 21:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Ivan IV officially and publicly abandoned the title of tsar in 1547following the destruction of Moscow by Devlet Girey, the han of Tatars, and a Tatar Sain-Bulat, or Semen Bekbulatovich was proclaimed tsar (Muscove tsars were vassals of Cimean Tatars, who were heirs of the Khans of the Golden Horde). Does anyone have information about this event? Compay 00:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why does the first picture have the caption "Tsar Ioann IV the Terrible"? In what relevant language is he Ioann? Is this Latin? I can't think what else it would be. In both English and Russian he is "Ivan", though of course the vowels have different values and the accent falls differently.
And for the second one: "In imitation of Henry VIII of England, Ivan married 7 times…" "In imitation of…" seems very unlikely, is there a citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Why are both used in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harris0 ( talk • contribs) 16 Dec 2006.
What else?
The overall impression of this article – it written by someone who neglect to read books.
I wonder if this article is being edited by non-native english speakers. The sentence "Upon his father's death, he formally came to the throne at the age of three, but his minority was dominated by the strong personality of his mother Elena Glinskaya" is just horrible. I have tried to edit some of the mangled writing in this article, only to see it reverted back to the previous rubbish. Cwiki 11:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Remove all the garbage and the sentence is changed to - "His father died when Ivan was only three. He ascended the throne however a regency was required during his minority. His mother, Elena Glinskaya assumed power."
I'm glad you agree with my basic point. I enjoyed our debate about the sentence I used as an example but that was a sideshow. You're right about the semicolon. I don't normally use semicolons in informal communications such as this; however, given that I'm banging on about stilted writing, I should have been more careful. You're also right about the use of the word "formally". The sentence was so badly written that I didn't get that the author was trying to say "He formally came to the throne at the age of three, but during his minority, the country was ruled by his mother". Also, I explained how I would reword the sentence as stated. I didn't necessarily say that's how I would write it in the first place.
Cwiki
12:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The page is definitely edited by non-native English speakers, which I find annoying. I myself is non-native English speaker and refrain from writing or editing anything on English language pages.
However I had to delete this sentence here: "Anna Glinsky (Jakšić) had a very significant role in the upbringing of little Ivan Vasilyevich. Since he left early without parents, Vasili III and Elenа, grandma Anna Jakšić of Serbia she took care of her grandson, it is certain, she met with the Serbian tradition."
What I find highly irritating is that the contributor, surely a Serbian, keeps adding this sentence back. I can understand he may want to underline his country's contribution to shaping Ivan's character and therefore shaping Russian history, but either he should do it in correct English or should stick to the pages written in Serbo-Croat, or whatever language it is they speak in Serbia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Bianconeri78 (
talk •
contribs)
11:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
An anonymous user wants links to St. Basil's Cathedral to redirect to the nonexistent link St. Vasili. I do not think this should be the case, but am not going to keep reverting it. I think the argument is that the cathedral is called "St. Vasili" by local people, but this is English Wikipedia. Blue Rasberry 20:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Why would a drunken Boyar putting his dirty boots on Ivan's bed contribute to his mental instability? Cwiki 10:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I refer to a passage in this article- "In one letter, he painfully recalls an episode when one drunken boyar put his dirty boots on Ivan's bed. These traumatic experiences doubtlessly contributed to his hatred of the boyars and to his mental instability." I'm trying to rid this article of garbage but it keeps on getting reverted. What do you mean by saying "Ivan's brains were sharper than ours". More garbage. Cwiki 10:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon, these are typical secondary sources. They were written in the 20th or 21st centuries. Primary sources should date to the 16th century. Are you sure that your additions are not an urban legend? -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I found an article about Andrey Kurbsky, doing a random article search. There is no mention of Andrey Kurbsky in the Ivan IV article. I added a link under SEE ALSO, but someone who is more knowledgable than me may wish to add it in to the main article. -- KVox 20:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
At Talk:Jan I Olbracht it's been suggested that perhaps the easiest way to enforce the wiki conventions on naming of rulers would be to move all articles to the proper title and this one was given as an example. Any ideas on John IV of Muscovy? // Halibu tt 20:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Overall really badly edited. "What had been by far the richest area of Russia became the poorest" - What area are we talking about?
"In a dispute with Novgorod Republic, Ivan ordered the Oprichniks to murder the inhabitants of this city. Between thirty and forty thousand were killed. Yet the official death toll named 1,500 of Novgorod big people (nobility) and only mentioned about the same number of smaller people." -- It is not fact-based. First of all, "murder of inhabitants" needs to be re-worded. I was not the exact mission. 30-40 thousand is way too high. Estimates at Novgorod population of this time are about 20-30 thousand total and number of victims 2-3 thousand of which nobility stands at few hundred. Can someone double check this with reputable source (Skrynnikov?)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.226.231.199 ( talk • contribs) 22 June 2006.
Is it possible to get a higher-resolution image of the Ilya Repin painting (Ivan the Terrible killing his son)? The particularly haunting expression on Ivan's face doesn't come through in the current small version. Robotman1974 09:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Also i do suggest remove the image of painting named "Tsar Ivan IV mourns Anastasia Romanovna. 1875 painting by Grigory Semyonovich Sedov (1836-1886)" cause it is completely misleading showing a guy in his 60's or 70's while Ivan was young lad in his 30's when Anastasia died. I know that it is probably intentionally made by artistic means but on site like wikipedia that is also educational it is unhistorical and misleading...So not good.
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It is very frustrating to see a rather neutral article ruined by tendentious editing... :( -- Ghirla -трёп- 18:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
1.
Previous text: """ In a dispute with the wealthy city of Novgorod, Ivan ordered the Oprichniks to murder inhabitants of this city, which was never to regain its former prosperity. Between thirty and forty thousand might have been killed during the infamous Massacre of Novgorod in 1570 """
This paragraph contains a lot of mistakes.
2.
It is incorrect to declare famine and the devastation of Russia as result of the Oprichnina only. Authors of this opnion forget the Big Drought and the epidemics of plague in 1560s, the Polish-Lithuanian and Swedish raids on Russian territory (devastation of region Smolensk, Pskov, Novgorod, Yaroslavl, South-West etc), attacks of Tatars of Crimea (They even burnt down Moscow), the trading blockade carried out by Swedes, Poles and Hanseatic League.
In 1560s the grain prices have grown ten times. Epidemic of the plague killed 10,000 in Novgorod. In 1570 the plague killed 600-1000 in Moscow daily. (R.Skrynnikov, "Ivan Grosny", M., AST, 2001)
3.
Ivan realized objective centralization tendencies. In Europe these tendencies conducted to overcoming of the feudal privileges and dissociation and to the building of the absolutistic state. It is necessary to remember the bloody acts of Henry VIII (England), Charles IX (France), Erik XIV (Sweden) and Spanish kings.
The Oprichnina was not the product of Ivan's paranoia. In the regions of Oprichnina (the Northeast of Russia) the number of large noble landowners was small. Basing on the Oprichnina, tsar wanted to suppress the nobility of the Southwest and the West of Russia, who did not support his struggle against Poland, Lithuania and Sweden.
4. My text: "In 1552 tsar won Kazan Khanate, whose armies repeatedly devastated the Northeast of Russia (ref), and annexed its territory. 1556 he annexed Astrakhan Khanate and destroyed the largest slave market on the river Volga. These gains of tsar complicated the migration of aggressive nomadic hordes from Asia to Europe through Volga and transformed Russia into a multinational and multiconfessional state."... "He introduced the local self-management in rural regions, mainly in the Northeast of Russia, populated by the state peasantry. What in this versions frustrate my opponent?
Ben-Velvel 18:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Now that section says that there were up to 60,000 killed - in a town of 10-20,000. What the hell? Somebody fix it! I don't know enough to, but I can sure recognize an error like that when I see it! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.226.52.221 (
talk)
03:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
In looking at the massacre in 1570, you could look at the sources in the Wikipedia article specificially on the massacre; The casualty figures are not just for the town, but for the whole district, and it is unclear what the population was - I would say most population figures for the medieval and early modern periods are guesses, as there aren't very good records. There was no census and the land cadastres (pistsovye knigi) are incomplete).
Ruslan Skryinnikov argued that perhaps only about 6,000 were killed, based on prayer lists the tsar sent to the Kirillov Monastery and Skryatov, but those may be only the most important people (boyars, middle-servicemen, clergymen) and not the peasantry; The figure of 60,000 is from German accounts at the time.
No one really understands why Ivan implemented the Oprichnina. There is the argument that it was to suppress the boyars, but then a lot of boyars were in the Oprichnina and most of the victims appear to be peasants. Skrynnikov, Zimin, and others who have studied it aren't really sure why Ivan implemented it, so it very well might be Ivan's paranoia. There was an article a few years back that argued Ivan was just another renaissance prince (I believe it was by Michael Cherniavsky, but I don't know how well that claim has been accepted. Ivan liked to thow animals off of towers, he scalded peasants with hot wine when they came to petition him, and he found ways to kill people beyond the normal execution of traitors and criminals - he is reported to have sewn Archbishop Pimen of Novgorod up in a bearskin and set dogs on him. It seems there were some mental problems, if not paranoia, something else. When his sarcophagus was opened in the Soviet period, his spine was fused and it is thought that may have put pressure on the spinal column and caused nervous or mental disorders. So it seems it was more than the harsh realities of rule in the sixteenth century that made Ivan do what he did.
--
Mcpaul1998 (
talk)
00:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Ivan IV(Ivan the Terrible) was born in Kolomenskoye NEAR Moscow not actually there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by L 2 Da U ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
It is true that Kolomenskoe was near Moscow in 1530; it is now well within the city of Moscow, four stops on the Metro from Teatralnaya on the Second Line, four miles or so from the Kremlin. -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I have a map here published by Rand McNally & Company that indicates that Siberia was acquired by Russia between 1598 and 1689. Since Ivan dies before 1598, his reign could not have seen the conquest of Siberia as indicated in the first paragraph of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.93.39 ( talk • contribs) 25 March 2007.
As far as I know Ermak and his cossaks defeated the khanate of Siberia in 1581 near the place where the city of Tobolsk currently stands. So you can say Ivan conquered Siberia, even though Russian troops reached the Pacific shores much later due to the vastness of Siberia. Bianconeri78 ( talk) 12:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Ivan Grozny is the Russian name given to Ivan IV, almost invariably translated as "Ivan the Terrible" into English, but a reference should be made to its literal Russian meaning; "Ivan the Threatening". While a minor point from a historical point of view, it should perhaps be mentioned as it does illustrate the subtle, but definetly different takes on the character from the West and in English-speaking countries. Eddie max 23:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Threatening doesn't quite do it justice either. It means 'terrible' in the old sense of the word, mighty and awe-inspiring. A russian friend said 'inspiring reverential dread' is an excellent phrase to describe the adjective. English just doesn't have the particular vocabulary for a direct translation. While a few people still know the old usage of 'terrible' its very unlikely that succeeding generations will, so perhaps a better translation is in order. My Russian professor suggested 'thunderous' but that doesn't quite sound correct in english.(S.L)
I think "Formidable" (as in "formidable foe") may be a better translation. Terrible translates as "Страшный" or "Ужасный", first one means "awe-inspiring", and second one can have two different meangings - "awe-inspiring" and "very bad", so it's not the best choice of a word. ( Ellestar ( talk) 14:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC))
THIS HELPED ME A LOT IN MY ASSINGMENT. THANKS. ♠ŚиíþéЯ♠ 03:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I've heard (not knowing Russian myself) that in the name "Peter the Great", the "Great" represents "grozny" in the original Russian. So can't we call the earlier tsar Ivan the Great?
Note: I once heard of a lecture in which a historian started by explaining that "terrible" was not a good translation. After subsequently summarizing Ivan's career he concluded: "Now that I think about it, he really WAS pretty terrible". CharlesTheBold 04:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Peter the Great is Pyotr Velikii. Ivan the Terrible is Ivan Grozny. Different words with very different meanings.
I don't speak Russian, but in context, perhaps "Ivan the Terrifying" best gets the point across? - CronoDAS 05:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Ivan III (r. 1462-1505)was "Ivan the Great".
Grozny implies awe-inspiring and demanding respect, that he is harsh toward the wicked and good to the just - there is an aspect of justice in the term in the 1500s; Similarly Russians spoke of Jesus as the Terrible or Fearful Judge and of the Last Judgment as "The Fearful Judgment" (Strashnyi Sud); not that Jesus is terrible; he is good to just and good people but justly punishes the wicked. There is an icon know as "The Savior of the Terrible Eyes" now in the Tretiakov Gallery in Moscow. The _Domostroi_, written by Metropolitan Makary, a main advisor to Ivan in his early reign, also refers to a father being "grozen" in his household. See Maureen Perrie's book _The Image of Ivan the Terrible in Folklore_, pp. 62-3; Cherniavsky, "Ivan the Terrible as Renaissance Prince."; Domostroi Section 14: How to teach Children and Save them through Fear.
That said, I would argue that he is known to the English-speaking world as Ivan the Terrible, and calling him Ivan the Dread or Ivan the Awesome, or Ivan the Fear Inspiring but Orthodoxy Tsar confuses rather than elucidates. A point should be made to define his sobriquet, but he should not be "renamed". -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
As someone who is new to researching Ivan, I find the addition of the "Terrible" misleading. I assumed the English translation of Terrible and preventing others from knowing its true nature does a disservice to Wikepedia users like myself. My 2 cents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 ( talk) 06:22, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
"Grozny" had been "formidable" in Russian since the 16th century up to now, but no to my knowledge source before the 18th century actually calls Ivan IV "Grozny". Vladimir Dahl is of little relevance here, since he lived in the 19th century and described later folklore (which he believed to be archaic, but which wasn't necessarily that). I would like to know when the English epithet "Terrible" first appeared. I would be happy if some native English speaker made any reference to the first attestation of it. As of present, the sobriquet section is very amateurish. 176.15.77.168 ( talk) 19:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Not suggesting an edit, but my hobby in philology compels me to wonder if "intimidating" would be a valid interpretation of "грозный" 2601:98A:4000:C980:0:0:0:6E24 ( talk) 15:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC) InitHello ( talk) 15:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
UPDATE: Slavic language speaker here. I can confirm that the term "grozny" translates almost directly to "fearsome" I am surprised this translation is not used more consistently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.94.101.154 ( talk) 16:00, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The abstract notes that Terrible in this context is its archaic form of 'inspiring fear.' Perhaps it should, for clarity, give an alternate translation to exemplify this, "Ivan the Awesome" or "Ivan the Fearsome."
I think failing to describe the archaic nature of the adjective "Terrible" is confusing. I'd like to expand the sentence in the introduction
by replacing it with
71.41.210.146 ( talk) 18:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"Terrible", "dread" etc. What's the difference? LOL. He was a horrible person and a crappy ruler and anyone with any sense knows it. Russians excluded, of course.
I've been unable to detect a single reasonable edit made in the main body of this article since last year. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
"Degradation of Wikipedia"? - wouldn't that imply that Wikipedia was some respectable, august, or honorable institution in order for it to be debased? Isn't it just a mass of people writing what they want on any subject under the sun? :) -- Mcpaul1998 ( talk) 00:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm unregistered so I can't. Someone remove the broken BBC link at the bottom. 88.114.251.167 13:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
If you have an argument with someone, and strike him in the head with a staff, how exactly does that constitute an "accident"? Manslaughter rather than murder, by modern evaluation, but hardly an accident. Mapjc ( talk) 16:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#IvanT Looks like a blog source, which list references. Not reliable. Tyrenius ( talk) 02:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The infobox mentions only Feodor I as his offspring and only Anastasia of Russia as his wife.
But he had 6 children with Anastasia - Anna, Maria, Dmitri (1), Ivan, Evodokia, and Feodor. And he married 6 more times (people talk of the 6 wives of Henry VIII, but never about the 7 wives of Ivan the Terrible) and produced 2 more children.
There was Maria Cherkasskaya (1561), who produced a son Vassily. Then came Maria Sobakina (1571), Anna Koltoskaya (1574), Anna Vasilshchikov (1576), Vassilisa Malentieva (1577), and finally Maria Nagaya (1580), who produced a final child, Dmitri (2). [3]
In the article we mention his son Ivan, whom he killed on 16 November 1581. But there’s some suggestion that he also killed Dmitri (1), on 3 July 1583 (or maybe they were getting confused with Ivan). Dmitri (2) supposedly died aged 9, in 1591, but False Dmitri I claimed that he had survived and that he was him.
These details all need to get into the article. -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Ivan married a Kabard princess [4]. What was her name? -- 71.108.3.62 ( talk) 11:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Did Ivan at any time have more than one wife at the same time?-- 71.108.3.62 ( talk) 11:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
No he did not, but he had innumerable mistresses.
In the early reign section, it reads "According to his own letters, Ivan customarily felt neglected and offended by the mighty boyars from the Shuisky and Belsky families. (These traumatic experiences may have contributed to his hatred of the boyars and to his mental instability. Alternatively, the negative feelings revealed in his letters may have been a reflection of his disagreeable temperament.)"
Isn't the part inside the parinthesis just speculation? Shouldn't that part be removed?
GBizzle ( talk) 05:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
The source is an article from Rodina magazine. The web version only provides the beginning of the article but the material is reasonably clear (and a public knowledge anyway). I will add another sources over recognition of Ivan IV claims Alex Bakharev ( talk) 07:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article shows a photo of Ivan looking over a woman: "Tsar Ivan IV admires his sixth wife Vasilisa Melentyevna (while sleeping)." However, if you click on the link to his first wife, Anastasia, you see the same picture with a different caption: "Ivan the Terrible at the deathbed of his first and most-beloved wife, Anastasia Romanovna." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.231.179 ( talk) 20:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I was looking up Ivan the Terrible after playing AoEIII, thinking who exactly was this guy... This page scared me. I believe the introduction section needs to be redone. It seems really messy and the thoughts seem rather scattered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.36.75.51 ( talk) 17:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mention that he opened Archangelsk as a major port? That was pretty significant, he opened up trade with the English. 149.152.191.3 ( talk) 21:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, should we mention how the English got there in the first place? 149.152.191.3 ( talk) 21:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I have no idea who keeps putting on this article that Ivan IV was murdered, but the sources they use either are about something else entirely or state that the idea is very unlikely. If you're going to make a statement like that it needs to be backed up with real sources.
possible? Louboi ( talk) 23:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
"The English mistranslation of the historical name of Ivan IV stems from traditional American propaganda's intention to distort and demonize Russian history."
LOL. The Russians are pros at distorting their own history. Half of which they don't know themselves b/c anyone who told the truth was murdered, jailed, banished or all of the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.95.24 ( talk) 10:25, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the sort of rhetoric that wiki editors should avoid. There is no reason such a proposition should be given credence as historians as far back as the 19th century have called Ivan “The Terrible” or “The Mad”. The opening line should be re-written to avoid the inaccuracy and bias reflected therein.
This opening appears biased, however, your point about it being mentioned "as far back as the 19th century" in no way debunks the original claim. Just thought I'd point that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.105.187 ( talk) 06:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
DeusImperator ( talk) 05:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved per consensus below that, in this case, the common name should be used rather than the MOS regnal number style.-- rgpk ( comment) 23:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Ivan IV of Russia → Ivan the Terrible — The deficiencies of the translation to "terrible" aside, this is by far the most common name by which Ivan is known in English. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it's what should be used (until, perhaps, a better translation takes hold in the English speaking world). -- Powers T 16:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Only about roughly 6 editors took part in this RM & there's a 4-2 in favour of moving. I'd hardly call this a consensus to move to Ivan the Terrible. GoodDay ( talk) 23:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that this move succeeded, I've proposed that Catherine II of Russia be moved Catherine the Great by the same reasoning. See: Talk:Catherine II of Russia#Requested move. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry but I am unable to understand the following line:
One billion acres making 130 km2 while this all express Russian state of Khanates of Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberia included. Any explanation will be appreciated.-- قیصرانی ( talk) 13:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
This comment was hidden within the article. I thought it would be better to bring it to the fore on the talk page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 07:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Please don't justify tyranism by mental problems. Modern researchers, basing on the analysis of the remains of Ivan, assume the mercury poisoning of tsar (as well as at his mother Helena Glinskaya). The mercury poisoning destroyed his mental health.
Notice that "the" is sometimes left out when it should be there in Russian articles. Just saying. English avoids overuse but it's still used or it sounds like a Russian speaking English, or a Yorkshire person "put kettle on". Manytexts ( talk) 13:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The article is chaotic, pathetically emotional, and lacks any structure.
A good example is that formation Oprichnina and Crimean raids are mentioned TWICE, as if these parts were written by different editors. At the same time article does not tell how and why Ivan launched Oprichnina (it completely misses the story of his staged abdication), and lacks any mention of Battle of Molodi.
We need it to be completely re-arranged. Russian article has a good structure to copy:
So the first sentences gives his name twice, as something in cyrillic which apparently transliterates as "Ivan Chetvyorty" and then another in cyrillic which transliterates as "Ivan Grozny". And the OGG soundbite for these BOTH comes out as "Ivan Grozny". Now I know there are issues with Russian transliteration, but you can't get "Chetvyorty" from "Grozny". Now we all know what "Grozny" means, what does "Chetyvorty" mean ? Eregli bob ( talk) 06:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I think "Четвёртый-Chetvyorty-Fourth" must be deleted. I've never seen similar things in other articles. Who needs the transcription of russian numerals? BTW he was Ivan I until 19 century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.136.201 ( talk) 15:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
At birth, he received the name of Iona, baptized by Ioann Vasilievich. When diplomats mistakenly called him Ivan arose international conflicts and about it all who were interested in History known. See Talk Marfa Sobakina. АСмуров ( talk) 04:36, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Ivan the Terrible - означает Иван Ужасный, это не верно!!!(Terrible - страшный, ужасный, грозный, жуткий, ужасающий, чудовищный, кошмарный, отвратительный, убийственный), "Грозный"(Grozny) - означает, грозящий, угрожающий, тот у кого грозный вид, который пугает окружающих, Menacing (in some states known as brandishing) is a violent crime in most state jurisdictions of the United States. Although the wording and degrees of offense vary slightly from state to state, the criminal act of menacing generally consists of displaying a weapon to a person with the intention of threatening them with bodily harm from said weapon. - это близкое по значению определение!)) Поясняю еще раз, это не значит что он был страшным или уродливым или пугающим, это значит что один его вид грозил всем окружающим и вселял в сердца страх перед Царем, который был 180 см роста, имел атлетическое сложение, это значит что по тем временам он был великаном, был умен и суров! Смотрите реконструкцию Mikhail Gerasimov! Grozny - означает выражение его лица, содержащее в себе угрозу, грозный взгляд. SpecialAdviser ( talk) 08:53, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Пусть перевод будет популярным, но мы как носители языка не вкладываем в слово "Грозный" отрицательной коннотации. И не имеем в виду "ужас-ужас", слово родственно слову "гроза" и по смыслу должно переводиться как "строгий", "бескопромиссный", в плоть до "громовержца". Предлагаю это озвучить! 80.78.120.89 ( talk) 02:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Leo I, King of Armenia > Isabella, Queen of Armenia > Leo II, King of Armenia > Rita of Armenia > Andronikos III Palaiologos > John V Palaiologos > Manuel II Palaiologos > Thomas Palaiologos > Sophia Palaiologina > Vasili III of Russia > Ivan the Terrible
Michael VIII Palaiologos > Andronikos II Palaiologos > Michael IX Palaiologos > Andronikos III Palaiologos > John V Palaiologos > Manuel II Palaiologos > Thomas Palaiologos > Sophia Palaiologina > Vasili III of Russia > Ivan the Terrible
Ivan is descended from the last Armenian King and the last Greek Emperor. Isn't this worthy of noting? -- Steverci ( talk) 17:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Ivan the allegedly "terrible" is a totally TERRIBLY wrong and ignorant translation, this includes also the western lies about his "terrible" leadership... Ivan the dreadful is the right translation of his name, not "terrible". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.239.105 ( talk) 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
It's not the wrong translation. The lies aren't western either. They're yours. He was a horrible man no matter what you choose to call him. LOL. "Ivan the Wonderful" right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.156 ( talk) 00:58, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ivan the Terrible/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article does not cite its sources. Kaldari 00:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:55, 14 January 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 19:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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On the assumption that Czar is the equivalent of Caesar and a claim to be a Roman Empire ruler, would it not be better to spell it Czar instead of Tsar, since Czar looks more like Caesar? ( PeacePeace ( talk) 01:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC))
When in category, Ivan the Terrible is under T
Is there a specific reason he's under T and not I? Cinefan Cinefan ( talk) 01:11, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Someone added a default template which used "Ivan" as a first name and Terrible as a surname. I removed it. Thanks for noticing. Dimadick ( talk) 21:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Actually "terrible" aptly applies to every*single*Russian ruler since day one including the current putz. Why mince words? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.95.24 ( talk) 10:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Anyone know if Ivan had a signature when writing his name? 81.108.244.153 ( talk) 22:07, 6 February 2022 (UTC)