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Alma and Lila Lévy was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 17 June 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Islamic scarf controversy in France. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RhysAJackson.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I created this page after seeing it in another editor's wish list.
I just now realized there is already an article on secularity in French schools, which is a featured article and has a much more comprehensive scope. My apologies for not looking more thoroughly before putting the article up. I'll go ahead and put a merge tag onto this article in case there's anything that can be used from this article for the secularity in French schools one.
D'oh!
JFHJr ( ㊟) 16:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we get a citation on the mother being banned from her sons school festival? 165.82.96.115 00:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The title of this article references the veil, which indicates a piece of cloth covering the nose and mouth. The actual controversy focused on 'le foulard' a french word for hajib, or scarf, covering the hair and sometimes the neck and ears. I'm going to change the title if you don't mind. (ADDED: Don't know how to change the title, but it should be changed for accuracy's sake.)--
Anotherpanacea (
talk)
22:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Oddly, in the English-speaking press, there is some confusion of the [head] scarf for the veil. They are quite different things:
The ban addressed the scarf. The veil is worn much less frequently in France.
I just noticed the above comment by anotherpanacea; as she/he addressed this half a year ago, and no on has sufficiently countered his/her points, I will rename the article, done by moving the page. Dogru144 ( talk) 19:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Editors need to understand that the context of veil in French apparently covers both what we would call veils and what we would call scarves in English. We need to carry forth in this article with this distinction in mind. The mass of religious-minded Muslim women in France are not advocating the wearing of niqabs, or actually veils (which cover the face), but, rather, are advocating the wearing of scarves that cover the hair and ears. Dogru144 ( talk) 21:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Note the actual veil, that covers the face (the first two pictures). Now, contrast those veils, which obscure the face, with the final picture, a scarf that leaves the nose, mouth, cheeks and chin visible, unveiled, this scarf being called a hijab:
-- Dogru144 ( talk) 21:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
This article entirely deals with the 2003 law banning veils/headscarves in schools. The French government is currently planning to introduce a law to ban face coverings in public (see [1]). Should this be mentioned on this article, or does it deserve a separate one? Robofish ( talk) 19:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is definately the place for updates on the controversy. I also would like to see one improvement... I came looking for references to Muslem groups that are actively trying to fight for their right to have the scarves, veils, burqas in France. The reference section only seems to point to those against the scarves which is a bit biased. 81.51.5.191 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC).
The need for updating laws in this article should also include the laws of other countries mentioned in it as examples. The article still states (in present tense) that a similar ban of the muslim headscarf applies to public schools in the mostly Muslim society of Indonesia as well - which it does not, and has not for quite a while. The headscarf (called "jilbab" there) has been perfectly legal to wear in national public schools in Indonesia since 1991. This was the end of a long running "headscarf controversy" in the Indonesian education system that started in the late 1970s, reached its highpoint in the late 1980s, and was officially ended with the SK 100/C/Kep/D/1991, allowing female muslim students in national public schools to wear it. 85.179.208.80 ( talk) 13:56, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
This page with French ban on full length Islamic veils. Neither page is too long to warrant a split off, and both are pertinent to each other whereas the scarf controversy is what led to the ban in the first place. Cant see why the need to two articles.
This is similar French ban on full length Islamic veils is similar to French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools as the law and the controversey are two sperate things. Another comparrison Health care reform debate in the United States and the actual law of Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. I see no difference, for this to be any different. My argument here is not WP:OTHERSTUFF but to put the topic in perspective.My suggested compromise is we have a section on it here but also a link to main article like can be seen here. I do believe the separate article is neseacary as this is has Wide implications and is already sizing up well BB7 ( talk) 19:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
If the decision is to keep French ban on full length Islamic veils, then it should be French ban on full-length Islamic veils. Ericoides ( talk) 06:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Please use secularism in place of laicité in this article. It is the proper English translation of the word and English readers can't be expected to understand laicité. Metal.lunchbox ( talk) 04:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
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For two reasons. One is that a scarf is ambiguous and can be worn around the neck etc. A hijab is more frequently called the "headscarf". Two, the "controversy" part doesn't add much to the article scope. Other aspects of the headscarf, like stats about how many women wear it etc also belong in this article. This would be similar to Islamic dress in Europe. VR talk 15:58, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I added to the section on French-Muslims motivations for wearing the scarf, citing a 2008 study by Stephen Croucher about Muslim concepts of the hijab/scarf. I also added to the Education section about the application of the law, describing a 2019 controversy about the hijab ban as it applies to mothers chaperoning school trips. I cited an article in The Guardian about the incident. Please review my edits and add or edit anywhere that needs it. RhysAJackson ( talk) 21:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)RHYS
It seems that there is some overlap between these two sections, and they could potentially be combined as two sub-headings under a single overarching category, such as "The Scarf to Muslims." RhysAJackson ( talk) 21:57, 10 November 2019 (UTC)Rhys
Should we lock the article preemptively before Islamophobes trash it? 16:59, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Alma and Lila Lévy was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 17 June 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Islamic scarf controversy in France. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RhysAJackson.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I created this page after seeing it in another editor's wish list.
I just now realized there is already an article on secularity in French schools, which is a featured article and has a much more comprehensive scope. My apologies for not looking more thoroughly before putting the article up. I'll go ahead and put a merge tag onto this article in case there's anything that can be used from this article for the secularity in French schools one.
D'oh!
JFHJr ( ㊟) 16:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Can we get a citation on the mother being banned from her sons school festival? 165.82.96.115 00:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The title of this article references the veil, which indicates a piece of cloth covering the nose and mouth. The actual controversy focused on 'le foulard' a french word for hajib, or scarf, covering the hair and sometimes the neck and ears. I'm going to change the title if you don't mind. (ADDED: Don't know how to change the title, but it should be changed for accuracy's sake.)--
Anotherpanacea (
talk)
22:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Oddly, in the English-speaking press, there is some confusion of the [head] scarf for the veil. They are quite different things:
The ban addressed the scarf. The veil is worn much less frequently in France.
I just noticed the above comment by anotherpanacea; as she/he addressed this half a year ago, and no on has sufficiently countered his/her points, I will rename the article, done by moving the page. Dogru144 ( talk) 19:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Editors need to understand that the context of veil in French apparently covers both what we would call veils and what we would call scarves in English. We need to carry forth in this article with this distinction in mind. The mass of religious-minded Muslim women in France are not advocating the wearing of niqabs, or actually veils (which cover the face), but, rather, are advocating the wearing of scarves that cover the hair and ears. Dogru144 ( talk) 21:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Note the actual veil, that covers the face (the first two pictures). Now, contrast those veils, which obscure the face, with the final picture, a scarf that leaves the nose, mouth, cheeks and chin visible, unveiled, this scarf being called a hijab:
-- Dogru144 ( talk) 21:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
This article entirely deals with the 2003 law banning veils/headscarves in schools. The French government is currently planning to introduce a law to ban face coverings in public (see [1]). Should this be mentioned on this article, or does it deserve a separate one? Robofish ( talk) 19:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is definately the place for updates on the controversy. I also would like to see one improvement... I came looking for references to Muslem groups that are actively trying to fight for their right to have the scarves, veils, burqas in France. The reference section only seems to point to those against the scarves which is a bit biased. 81.51.5.191 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC).
The need for updating laws in this article should also include the laws of other countries mentioned in it as examples. The article still states (in present tense) that a similar ban of the muslim headscarf applies to public schools in the mostly Muslim society of Indonesia as well - which it does not, and has not for quite a while. The headscarf (called "jilbab" there) has been perfectly legal to wear in national public schools in Indonesia since 1991. This was the end of a long running "headscarf controversy" in the Indonesian education system that started in the late 1970s, reached its highpoint in the late 1980s, and was officially ended with the SK 100/C/Kep/D/1991, allowing female muslim students in national public schools to wear it. 85.179.208.80 ( talk) 13:56, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
This page with French ban on full length Islamic veils. Neither page is too long to warrant a split off, and both are pertinent to each other whereas the scarf controversy is what led to the ban in the first place. Cant see why the need to two articles.
This is similar French ban on full length Islamic veils is similar to French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools as the law and the controversey are two sperate things. Another comparrison Health care reform debate in the United States and the actual law of Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. I see no difference, for this to be any different. My argument here is not WP:OTHERSTUFF but to put the topic in perspective.My suggested compromise is we have a section on it here but also a link to main article like can be seen here. I do believe the separate article is neseacary as this is has Wide implications and is already sizing up well BB7 ( talk) 19:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
If the decision is to keep French ban on full length Islamic veils, then it should be French ban on full-length Islamic veils. Ericoides ( talk) 06:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Please use secularism in place of laicité in this article. It is the proper English translation of the word and English readers can't be expected to understand laicité. Metal.lunchbox ( talk) 04:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
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For two reasons. One is that a scarf is ambiguous and can be worn around the neck etc. A hijab is more frequently called the "headscarf". Two, the "controversy" part doesn't add much to the article scope. Other aspects of the headscarf, like stats about how many women wear it etc also belong in this article. This would be similar to Islamic dress in Europe. VR talk 15:58, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I added to the section on French-Muslims motivations for wearing the scarf, citing a 2008 study by Stephen Croucher about Muslim concepts of the hijab/scarf. I also added to the Education section about the application of the law, describing a 2019 controversy about the hijab ban as it applies to mothers chaperoning school trips. I cited an article in The Guardian about the incident. Please review my edits and add or edit anywhere that needs it. RhysAJackson ( talk) 21:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)RHYS
It seems that there is some overlap between these two sections, and they could potentially be combined as two sub-headings under a single overarching category, such as "The Scarf to Muslims." RhysAJackson ( talk) 21:57, 10 November 2019 (UTC)Rhys
Should we lock the article preemptively before Islamophobes trash it? 16:59, 6 April 2021 (UTC)