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This is clearly the most unabashed, politically partisan article on wikipedia. I used to believe in this project until this article proved to me that this open source encyclopedia is the public washroom of scholarship. I'm finished here.
If Iraq War is a redirect to Iraq War (disambiguation) why does Iraq War (disambiguation) exist? Why isn't the disambiguation page here? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:21, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
Excellent idea to make the move, whoever it was. - St| eve 08:35, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree - much, much nicer article here at Iraq War than before at Invasion of Iraq.
OVER 2000 AMERICANS HAVE NOW DIED IN THIS WAR - END THE RETORIC AND BEGIN A REAL CONVERSATION. CALL YOUR SENATOR, YOUR CONGRESMEN, THE MEDIA EVERYONE DEMAND THAT THE ADMINISTRATION ANSWER FOR THE LIVES THEY HAVE THROWN AWAY. MAKE OCTOBER 26 A DAY OF PROTEST – STAY HOME FROM WORK, SCHOOL – WHAT EVER YOU CAN DO TO SEND A MESSAGE. THIS INSANITY HAS GOT TO END! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.59.70.22 ( talk • contribs) 25 Oct 2005. Note that this was interspersed before earlier comments
This conversation was on originally found on the Reference Desk and moved here. -- HappyCamper 11:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello does anyone know when it will end? -- Newsreporter 19:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC) I'am being serious.
Can't the Iraqi people try and get along? Shities, Sunni's and Kurds all fighting over what? -- Newsreporter 19:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Vietnam is it really going to be like that? -- Newsreporter 20:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC) I guess Vietnam was bad. Plus there is a lot of protesters around anyway like that woman that was staying near Crawford Texas. -- Newsreporter 20:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Is it that the Shities don't want the Sunni's and the Kurd's or what is the main reason for the invasion? -- Newsreporter 20:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC) Saddam Hussein was classified as a dictator but the americans have him why don't they leave?
On the matter of Sunnis vs. Shiites vs. Kurds... the Kurds want their own country, or a very seperate state, in the North of Iraq. They've wanted that for decades, actually. The Shiites want to be in charge of the country, more or less (a reasonable desire, given that they're easily the most populous group). The Sunni's also want to be in charge, and have subsequently boycotted the elections. The Americans don't want to leave until the Iraqi Army is built up enough to prevent some rogue dictator from pulling a Saddam and taking over the country. Unfortunately, the Islam militants don't realize that.
Saddam never declard Jihad. The Baath Party is largely secular and large opponents of islamists. -- Howrealisreal 15:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense. Please re-check your facts and if you do find that it is correct, please post it here cause I'd be very curious to see that. He might've called for his followers to war against the US, but that is very different from Jihad. -- Howrealisreal 00:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Good researching and I'm sorry for doubting you. It seemed very strange at first but I guess nothing is strange these days. -- Howrealisreal 03:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Trying to answer another question from Newsreporter ... Conflicts between Shites Sunnis Kurds, and other big groups in Iraq, such as organized crime which flourished under Saddam, all this is independent of the stated reasons for America invasion of Iraq. However, prior to the invasion, various Iraqi interest groups who wanted Saddam out, but did not have what it takes to get rid of him themselves, they allegedly conspired to feed phony intelligence to America, and to other nations, such as about WMD, in hopes of America invasion to oust Saddam, or some other equivalent results. So indirectly, conflicts between different groups in Iraq, could be said to have contributed to why the invasion occurred.
America cannot be policeman to the world, orchestrating regime change any place desired, such as North Korea. There has to be something to persuade Congress and Allies and UN that intervention is justfied. Look at Cuba. Many US administrations have wanted regime change there, America has the might to orchestrate it, but lacks the justification for invasion. AlMac| (talk) 07:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I moved this article back to Iraq War, because the conflict which the article covers is ongoing and did not take place exclusively in 2003. The initial invasion, which did take place only in 2003, has its own article at 2003 invasion of Iraq. This article is meant to cover both that initial invasion and the subsequent fighting. Plainsong 18:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the UK detainees recently held by Iraqi police, if they weren't in uniform or carrying their weapons openly, then they aren't protected as soldiers under the Geneva Conventions. These are the same standards used by the US and UK to classify their enemies as "unlawful combattants." For the sake of conformity, at least, the same language used to describe the insurgency should be used to describe these two ("British fighters," "British agents," etc.). Maybe "members of the British military." David Iwancio 02:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think you can compare Vietnam war to Iraqi war. Also remember that in Veitnam the US had thier ass kicked. We must not forget that the Vietnam war was mainly battling against communism and Iraqi is mainly gaining petrol. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.123.16.88 ( talk • contribs) 20 Sept 2005.
I'm curious, in what ways was the US's "ass kicked" in Vietnam? 71.133.115.162 12:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any reliable sources to verify "They were reported to having been planting bombs in a public place...". -- BeenBeren 11:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday (ca. 18:00, 19 September 2005 UTC), in a newspaper linked from news.google.com, I read aloud to my office mate that the English soldiers in Arab garb were planting bombs in public places. I cannot recall the newpaper's name and I've been going crazy trying to find it or any mention of the alleged bomb planting.
Here are two archived news sources...
http://www.bewareofthis.info/pagecache/page2902/19_basra.wmv - Two British soldiers have been arrested in the southern Iraqi city of Basra in a civilian car packed with explosives, now freed by British Commandos.
http://www.bewareofthis.info/pagecache/page2903/ - Iraqi police detained two British soldiers in civilian clothes in the southern city Basra for firing on a police station on Monday, police said. The British forces informed the Iraqi authorities that the two soldiers were performing an official duty.
I think the bomb planting claim should be removed unless we can find a source soon. -- BeenBeren 10:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bomb planting claim. -- BeenBeren 05:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Should this image be included? There is already an image from AFP and (from what is being reported) these two individuals appear to be from the SRR or SAS - both secretive units of the British Army. Their faces are usually pixelated (or whatever) to conceal their identity. Is it really appropriate to have this image? SoLando 02:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there a need to change it? In my opinion these two individuals cannot be considered as being of secret service or whatsoever, for their actions they have done. Good show thier heads, if I get a good sum of money for thier heads, they are mine. ;)
Didn't the Jazeera pic add something to the story? People can see the SAS is using Anglos for undercover, not Arabs. That adds information doesn't it? Illuminates tactics and whatnot. If the men were Arabs wouldn't the story change? After all, people throughout the Arab world (millions inside and outside Iraq) have seen this broadcast already. The pic has already been widely distributed on the Web and TV. You're only denying insight and information to Westerners. User:thadswanek
This was in the article ... but was commented out. JDR 18:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
The section below was removed wholesale from this article by User:Silverback after repeated deletions by him and subsequent reverts by various users. If information is not relevant to this article, please move it to an article where it is relevant, rather than simply deleting. There is a VfD protocol to follow for redundant information - otherwise you are taking a unilateral decision to sanitise the Wikipedia account, which is verging on vandalism. 195.157.197.108 10:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
On September 19, 2005, two British soldiers were arrested by Iraqi police in Basra following a car chase. Police officials accused them of firing at police while dressed in civilian clothes. After being approached by Iraqi police, the two soldiers reportedly fired on the police, after which they were apprehended, which sparked clashes in which UK armoured vehicles came under attack. Two civilians were reportedly killed and three UK soldiers were injured. The arrests followed the detention of two high-ranking officials of Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army
UK Ministry of Defence officials insist they have been talking to the Iraqi authorities to secure the release of the men, who were reported to be working undercover. British servicemen who were seen being injured in the graphic photographs are being treated for minor injuries only. But they do acknowledge a wall was demolished as UK forces tried to "collect" the men. However, sources in the Iraqi Interior Ministry say six tanks were used to smash down the wall in a rescue operation. Witnesses told the Associated Press around 150 prisoners escaped during the operation; Iraqi officials later denied any prisoners had escaped.
Earlier, two British Warrior AFVs, sent to the police station where the soldiers were being held, were hit by multiple petrol bombs in clashes. British officials would not say if the two men were working undercover. Crowds of angry protesters hurled petrol bombs and stones injuring three servicemen and several civilians. TV pictures showed soldiers in combat gear, clambering from one of the flaming AFVs and making their escape. In a statement, Defence Secretary John Reid said the soldiers who fled from the vehicles were being treated for minor injuries. Mr. Reid added that he was not certain what had caused the disturbances. "We remain committed to helping the Iraqi government for as long as they judge that a coalition presence is necessary to provide security," the statement said. Later British MoD reports suggested the soldiers were being handed to Iraqi insurgents by members of the Iraqi police, despite instructions from the Iraq Interior Ministry that they should be released.
Tim Collins, a former commander of troops in Iraq, described the incident with the crowd as like a "busy night in Belfast." [8]
Right now this article just looks like a condensed version of the "Invasion of Iraq" one. What's the difference between the two? In other words, what defines whether a fact should go here or there? Korny O'Near 17:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
What is the correct reference to Saddam Hussein beyond the complete name? Should he be referred to as "Saddam" or "Hussein"? Normally, Wikipedia articles have referred to the individual by their family name. ("Hussein", right?) Is that the correct method? We refer to Bill Clinton as "Clinton" and George W. Bush as "Bush" in the articles. We even use "Bush" but not merely "George" in this article. What is correct? - Tεx τ urε 19:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This article refers to the occupation in the past tense, claiming it ended on June 28th, 2004. This is not a neutral POV- international law, common sense, and the global consensus all hold that coalition forces are still occupying powers in Iraq. The article should be rephrased to make it clear that the occupation is ongoing. User:bugg42 01:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Reddi. I was looking at who rewrote the Iraq War article to a past-tense state, and found this diff which showed that you did it. The point of having an "Iraq War" article is to represent the current and ongoing war in Iraq, and to define the common term that everybody uses. While the 2003 invasion of Iraq was "mission accomplished," the "war" (according to popular consensus and terminology) continues. You even stated in the infobox "Occupation end: June 28, 2004!" Only a particular view considers the occupation over, and there are some basic facts (extended immunity for soliders, etc.) which contradict this and at the very least make the statement one of POV. There are some serious problems with the framework you rewrote it in, and there are going to have to be reverts. :( SinReg, - St| eve 04:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The Iraq War article should be in the past-tense state, as it is a finished war. The point of having an "Iraq War" article is to represent the war and other articles to delineate Iraqi insurgency. The "conflict in Iraq" as it stands now is the insurgency (some say Iraqi civil war).
Define the common term that everybody uses? Iraq insurgency does this (or more particularly Iraqi civil war does). The google results link (god results?) that you gave cover the war on terrorism, the finished iraq war, and the insurgency.
Now, after the occupation ended, a new sovereign took control of Iraq .... it's kinda telling that you bring up the banner thing .... after the 2003 invasion of Iraq there was "mission accomplished" (this, though, is a particularly misapplied event to the overall war (this was to the 'invasion of Iraq' only); it though has been disbelieved by many of the war's critics (aka. a vocal and non-neutral POV) and subsequently disputed by these critics) and the current conflict [or "war" (usually applied with an anti-war POV to "keep the war going")] is a miscategorized in reguards to the the "iraq insurgency" (that is why that article is there ...).
It is stated in the infobox "Occupation end: June 28, 2004". That is when the new Iraqi government took control of the country. This is view of UN ... who considers the occupation over. There may be a problems with the article's framework of the article if it contridicts a particular non-neutral stance. The insurgents are fighting the internationally recognized Iraqi government. The "Iraq War" article is to represent the 2003 war (and some of the "occupation") .... not the conflict concerning the insurgency and the new government (and it's allies). Sincerely, JDR 19:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
No, that is entirely a United States-based view of the situation, as dictated from POV sources. It is not even remotely the reality. For example the use of "sovereign" in reference to Iraq is often criticized as a mere propagandism. Even on its surface the article cannot take the bias you describe, because that would be deferential to only one view. Probing any deeper, we find a basic contradiction between the concepts of sovereignty and the existing state of a military occupation —which more closely resembles colonialism. As I said before, the extension of complete and total diplomatic immunity to foreign soldiers, as well as the existence and deference to legal codes established under the occupation, stand as facts in disagreement with the claim of "sovereignty." I will copy this discussion in full to the Talk:Iraq War page, and ask for further community input. - St| eve 21:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Ive been away, and will reorder some of your edits. Ive noted what youve said above, but indeed the definition of soverignty and even the UN are controversial. The UN, like other bodies often makes ceremonial degrees, in the interest of fostering consensus and progress. The links you point to were simply news stories, reporting loosely on terms used in ceremonial decrees "Security Council unanimously endorses formation of interim Iraqi government," "Security Council hails handover of authority to interim Iraqi Government," both are non-binding and non-authoritative: the UN merely "endorse[d]" and "[hail[ed]" major "landmarks" in progress which were still completely under US control. Those changes only marked the beginning of a process, said to bring Iraq to a state of sovereignty, but as it stands it is perhaps 90 percent run by a foreign government. This is all without dealing with the US' influence in the UNSC, or with the UN's use of soverignty. What do the official statements (not the news blurbs) say? Your linkage to military occupation doesnt help your case, as anyone who's looked at the article will know.
I would have been somewhat happy if you at least showed some of the nature of the basic disagreement in the footnote. Why you had not done so I dont know, I can only assume you dont understand the relevance of controversy in the context of a war --wars being known somewhat for their controversy. Instead you stand by "the war is over" because "the UN decreed Iraq a sovereign country..." If youre not simply a paid propagandist, one is forced to remember a Chomsky quote about how "it takes real dedication [to ignorance] not to perceive" (in this case) how disagreeable it is to attempt to base a free article on a controversial topic without mentioning the controversy (its a fucking war for Pete's sake) and offering merely a statist view along with flawed concepts and definitions. Anyway, I'll review your changes. - St| eve 04:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
By the way, even a cursory view of Google news searches on "Iraq sovereignty" shows the issue as an open question or otherwise simply a matter of continuing process. That definition of soverignty --as a work in process --is far more aggreeable than your preferred "UN version." Some links here, even Rush Fucking LimbauIraqi Regular Armygh says "Iraq sovereignty wasn't going to happen", Plan to Save Iraq or Break it Up? (SFGate), etc. Read for yourself. -SV
[Comment to Stevertigo's RfM]
The US Troops are there as guests of the sovereign Iraqi government, as are the US troops in Germany. So by your logic, the troops in Germany are occupying that country? Are you serious? BTW, see the main article on the occupation" According to Article 42 of the Hague Convention, "[t]erritory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army."" That's no longer true, so your opinion is wrong - the country is no longer occupied Done. NPOV. JG of Borg 00:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
This section is not a Debate Section. It is simply a listing of the "pro" position. There is a "criticism" section, but I note that there is a POV tag being placed on this. I have no strong feelings about the Iraq War, but I can detect propaganda, and feel that this whole article is becoming very very biased. A reader would think that it is a military manual glorifying a magnificent victory. If you hadn't noticed, the war is continuing... Wallie 08:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
The Iraq War or War in Iraq (compare: "Gulf War" of 1991) is the common term for the current and ongoing conflict in Iraq between the forces of the United States of America against native and foreign rebels (referred to by the U.S. as "insurgents"). All definitions of the term consider the "Iraq War" to have begun with the invasion of 2003, but beyond this beginning, definitions vary and may show aspects political shift, relative to public opinion.
Variance in the use of the "Iraq War" term is largely due to the basic differences in the operative definition for "war" and (military) "occupation." However in spite of any variance and shift —and perhaps attributable to simple linguistic economy —the use of the "Iraq War" term is prominent in current news and opinion reportsgn that deal with violence between (largely) native against (largely) foreign combatants.
The war has formally ended on May 1, 2003, when United Nations recognised the Iraqi goverment. The violence, however, did not end, and there is a public opposition to American involvement, both from a right and left perspective, evocing all the negative images in the 1960s of the Vietnam War.
What are we talking about in this article? About the "war" which ended in May 1, or beyond that? The first part of the intro infers that this war is still ongoing now. The second part indicates that it ended over two years ago. Which is true? And if the war is over, what is the fighting called now? Wallie 19:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
There are disagreements on the general use of the term "Iraq War." I dont see what the problem is in understanding this general ambiguity. I have laid out a basic framework by which the article can reflect and cite each particular definition, and this does so with an appropriately prominent but still limited reference to "current and ongoing" conflict one based in common liguistic economy/efficiency. This is not a definition, but merely a popular use for the term —heaven forbid that we should defer to or even recognize any general consensus in the use of the term. And who is to blame for the fact that this general usage, be generally similar (though not equivalent) to definition 1.
Comments by Reddi/JDR (and now someone else) seem to want to change the article to reflect only one particular variant —definition 2. They might debate between themselves on the definition of "occupation" etc, but IAC theirs is just one POV. Claims that the UN's ceremonial statements, or even decrees for that matter are likewise just one POV and though its preferable to reference a UN "statement of support" (not a UNSC resolution).
Look at any "war" article, and even these are controversial in terms of their scope and true origins. " The Civil War" of course is of course an elementary example of this relativism, and any "global" encyclopedia needs to qualify the term —American? Russian? English? (Is the Iraq War now a "civil war?" Even if one made a reasonable case for it, it would still only be one out of several theories.) Historical distance often doesnt really solve the problem, for example the Hundred Years' War is a later term to refer to an long-running campaign of battles between England and France. Some consider WW II to have begun with Japan's invasion of Manchuria, etc., and even a few Americentric writers think of that war as begun with Pearl Harbor. The Vietnam War likewise suffers from this POV-orientation problem —the Vietnamese consider the war as just another battle to liberate their country from foreign influence —they would even have to repel the Chinese ( ICW III) after the U.S. withdrew.
Somewhere in the mid-late 1960s U.S. general Westmoreland probably said things like "the insurgency is on the run" and the war is "in its last throes." These statements, as we now know, were not directly connected with reality, and therefore cannot be taken verbatim. The "war in Iraq", just like the "war in Vietnam" is an almost undefineable entity, and words are simply tokens —we must use and define the most common tokens used in current language. Despite any past differences in definition, most agree with two basic things about the Vietnam War the conflict began with slowly with a civil war and military buildups of North and U.S. forces. "The war," from the U.S. POV "ended" with the withdrawal of those U.S. forces. From the Vietnam POV, it "ended" with the defeat of the South government a couple years later.
Is this a "war", an "occupation" a "peacekeeping mission," or a "civil war?" It is simply an open question as long as the conflict(s) is a current event —as long as foreign forces are there en masse, and as long as there are open and severe hostilities between those same forces and a native opposition. "It" will not end until either of those conditions are met — if all foreign presence leaves and war continues between native entities, then that will be called a "civil war."
The intro appropriately states that differences in the definition come largely from differences in the definitions of "war" and "occupation." Recent and current peacekeeping missions and past peaceful occupations dont even closely resemble the current conflict in Iraq, and therefore the term "war" is (widely) used.
Reddi claims that not only is the conflict not a "war" it is also not an "occupation," (as that term carries connotation of a "belligerent occupation", as opposed to a peaceful occupation). The citation of the UN "support" of "sovereingnty" is far short of any proof that the country is in fact sovereign at this time, and though referendums and elections help improve this image, other facts hold this image in dispute. Hence the U.S. cannot refer to its occupation as a "peacekeeping" operation, for the simple reason that it began the conflict, there remains conflict now, and it (the U.S.) remains one side in the conflict. - St| eve 22:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo, please do not remove the dispute tag. You have ignored several parameters of Wikiquette (ignoring questions (see above); Being impolite; Being uncivil; etc ...) ... and are now ignoring several guidelines.
The fact that the inaccurate "general usage" characterizes "Iraq War" as beginning with the 2003 invasion, and continuous to the present should not be fostered in Wikipedia. It is a partisan view that is pushing a POV ... a direct violation of the NPOV policy. The so-called "disagreements" on the term "Iraq War" is clearly an attempt to push a POV. AND "if" there is a "general ambiguity" ... it should be taken care @ in a dsambig page not here in the article!!! This colloquial buzzword "Iraq War" refers to the insurgency and the brewing civil strife. The current environment is not a "war" ... it is a insurgency ... it is also not an "occupation", that ended @ the handover of sovergeinty! I and others have stated this and you have repeatedly said that "that's wrong" ... without any reason.
The "war in Iraq" is a defineable entity. WHO WERE THE MAJOR COMBATANTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE COMBATANTS? Please answer those two qestions and these .... where is the Iraqi Regular Army? Where is the Iraq command? Is the Iraqi Regular Army still out there fighting? Where is thier control structure and is still intact? .... did or did not the multinational forces win the war against the Iraqi Army? Sincerely, JDR 23:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Also ... as per the NPOV policy, an article should delineate the technical definition of a term/phrase. As to be used in articles, it should only be used in its technical sense (eg., one particular variant ... and the most neutral ... which is 2). It should to explain what is meant by this term in order to avoid: (a) causing unnecessary offense, and (b) misleading the reader (most people being unaware of how this word should be used; which the current article does.) There is also the UN's statements and resolutions ... which is from an authorative source ... and this a the UN "statement of support" (see the link above ... it was a _unanimous_ UNSC resolution). Sincerely, JDR
I have not been uncivil, and in fact I've been exceedingly reasonable and responsive. I removed the tag because its an annoyance, and because such should be used for specific criticism, not general malaise.
You say "the "war in Iraq" is a defineable entity." But you then use a limited definition of "war," and fail to connect the war with the "occupation." World War II didnt end for France just because Germany's invasion was "successful," France was annexed, and its occupation was largely peaceful. You even demand "WHO WERE THE MAJOR COMBATANTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE COMBATANTS?" which preemptively claims this is all an issue of the past, and leaves no opening for a reply which deals with the current conflict. Your using an outdated and particularly POV definition of "war" and talk about "Iraq command" and other irrelevant BS. War is a state of conflict between parties. Just as with the Vietnam War, this war is being characterized differently by the dominant military power as an ideological one. Westmorelandspeak or Rumsfeldian notwithstanding, the reality is not limited to ideology, and certainly not in accord with the terms dictated by the aggressor. That would not be NPOV for us.
Your comments are deliberately vague, for example you claim the "inaccurate "general usage" characterizes "Iraq War" as beginning with the 2003 invasion..." makes it seem like you disagree with that basic beginning. You dont really disagree with that, do you? And if not, then we can at least agree that we agree on something, and we can work from there. Is your point of view not represented in the listed definitions, or are you simply claiming that your POV is "proper" and should dominate the article and all reference to the term?
<opportunistic political comment>It is also rather odd that one such as yourself who apparently supports a segmentalist and particularly pro-war definition for the article is worried that my wording might: "(a) causing unnecessary offense, and (b) misleading the reader" It is ironic because (a) war itself is a far more offensive act and (b) the war in question owes its existence to largely misleading statements by the offender. You even claim "(most people being unaware of how this word should be used; which the current article does)" which (a) asserts that most people are stupid and (b) that you know best how the word (term actually) "should be used." </opc> - St| eve 00:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
A NPOV is the only "proper" one and should dominate the article and all reference to the term. As with other terms (such as fundemetalism), the limited (eg., technical) definition should be used.
Now ... World War II didnt end because the Allies were still fighting the Axis .... Where is the "axis" of the Iraq War? The Allies of the multinational forces are plainly seen ... Now .... the questions are not preemptive, just simple questions ....War is a state of conflict between parties but you still have not answered the questions!!! Who were the major combabtants? What happened to the major combatants? If you would answer this would would see the issue truely. BUT because th anti-war / anti-US POV cannot accept the plain facts ... so there is no reply ...
AND ... as been said repeatedly ... the proper way to deal with the current conflicts (insurgency and secterian violence) is to refere the reader to the appropriate article. This is not "outdated" ... it is more technical and impartial ... and is the more NPOV definition of "war".
[Ignores most of the mischaracterization of my position and the "the Vietnam War" fallacious analogy] Just to let you know, the Vietnamese Opposing the United States and the South had a control structure and a viable command (eg. the NV government).
Sincerely, JDR 00:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
You say:
I assume you mean "an NPOV definition is the only proper one." I may agree, but, in the case of multiple definitions, how does one define which is "proper?" Your definition is POV in the extreme, though you like to claim it is "a NPOV." The rest seems a bit incoherent to deal with. Please edit your comments for clarity. - St| eve 00:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's pretty valuable to look at the Wikipedia entry for Sovereignty which addresses some of the points, that I believe, are at the core of a lot of disagreement on this page. The government recognized by the United Nations, United States, and others in Iraq - the government that the US has "transferred sovereignty" to, has de jure sovereignty according to the United Nations, United States, and pretty much every state that has officially weighed in on it. While recognizing any authority of law as legitimate is inherently an opinion, the argument can easily be made that it is a NPOV.
That being said, from a human rights perspective the more useful definition of sovereignty to look at is that of de facto sovereignty. The United Nations, or United States, or really anyone is not in a position to say that the government of Iraq is de facto sovereign: while it may be the opinion of the United Nations or the United States that it is, there is a large number of people who disagree, and there are frankly solid legal arguments in favor of it. Namely, the record on the ground shows that coalition troops operate outside of the scope of Iraqi law. This is significant enough where the result is to question whether the Iraqi government is de facto sovereign. If the coalition troops are not in Iraq at the request of the de facto and de jure sovereign power, then they are an occupying force under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Bugg42 22:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
This article seems as though it was written by Fox News with help from the Department of Defense. I don't want it to slant in the other direction, but it needs some neutrality.
1) "Insurgents" - this term is inherently biased. Its wide use in the mainstream press doesn't mean it's neutral.
2) Lack of cites - this article is chock-full of citeless assertions. I removed something today to the extent of "Coalition forces suspected that the insurgents were being supplied by Syrian forces. And with the amount of resistance they encountered, they were proved right." No cite. That sort of thing is wildly inappropriate in a Wikipedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blackberrylaw ( talk • contribs) 24 Oct 2005.
I don't think the term "Insurgents" is inherently biased (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgents ,
http://www.answers.com/insurgent&r=67 ,
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=insurgent ), it seems acurate and NPOV to me; it's not as if they are being called "terrorists" or "freedom fighters". "Insurgents" is term that encompases the idea of orginised rebellion against an authority, and which does not imply that this rebellion is justified/unjustified or any other POV implication. -Greeny 02 Nov 2005
The term is not used exclusively from the Pentagon .... seems to be a bit hypocritical that you cite the mass media in earlier converstions and then ignore it here, Steve. Inaddition, he Iraqi government itself has used this term. Also, the various violent groups (native and forgein; militants, thugs, or terrorists) are fighting the established sovergein of the State (and that state's allies). Sincerely, JDR 16:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Why do we list the governments of countries that opposed the war in one section, while not the (far greater number of) governments of countries that supported it in the section right before it? JG of Borg 02:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
That is a good idea ... if the anti-war proponents would allow that, I'd be in favor of including it ... JDR 20:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I read some of the above, but don't have time now for the detailed wrangling, and anyway it seems pretty irrelevant to be arguing niceties about a blunt reality. Many people have claimed that the war is over, sometimes repeatedly at different successive dates. Plainly it is not or there would not be so many foreign troops still running the country, and dying. In the technical sense, the Iraqi army was defeated years ago. But only a complete idiot would have thought that was the end of the war. Sandpiper 03:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
At WikiEN-l, steve v posted a message " Reddi and me. Contrary to his opinion, "stating that Iraq is sovereign" is a not a violation of NPOV. As Alphax alluded to ... and Delirium stated .... "Wikipedians, are [not] here to decide whether Iraq is "sovereign" or not. We should report what prominent sources say on the matter". The United Nations Security Council passed unanimously a resolution that "endorsed [...] the assumption of full responsibility and authority by a fully sovereign and independent Interim Government of Iraq".
Steve also cited Bugg42 concerning the troops and the I will basically repeat what I said above ... the coalition personnel are subject to the jurisdiction of thier parent country and this is because of an agreement with the Iraqi government and the coalition commands. This covers the soldiers and contractors working in operations conducted by mutual consent of the Iraqi government and the commands of the coalition force. Let me be clear though ... the Iraqi government can request that they abide by any particular rules or laws ... they have done this (through this agreement) ...
Steve goes on to state that the situation in Iraq is a Suzerainty. This is untrue though .... as Iraq is not a tributary to any of the multinational forces (eg., Iraq is not paying any of the multinational forces a "tribute"). Iraq also does not have a limited domestic autonomy, but is fully sovereign and independent. The multinational forces are not controlling Iraq's foreign affairs (ie., Iraq has it own diplomats and conducts it's own negotiations with other nations).
Sincerely, JDR 21:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC) (PS., Do note that the agreement between the multinational forces and the Iraqi government can be considered a type of status of forces agreement [SOFA]).
Just a note ... it is telling of a POV when Steve state's the article Iraq disarmament crisis can be renamed to Pre-Iraq War fraud ... contrary tothe facts in the Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report on the Activities of the Iraq Survey Group and the Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq’s WMD. Sincerely, JDR 22:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Or it is hidden so well that I couldn't find it in 10 minutes of reading this article. I am reffering to Iraqis attititude and opinions towards the war and reconstruction efforts. Do they support it or not? Were there any surveys conducted? Sources, please. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
This is clearly the most unabashed, politically partisan article on wikipedia. I used to believe in this project until this article proved to me that this open source encyclopedia is the public washroom of scholarship. I'm finished here.
If Iraq War is a redirect to Iraq War (disambiguation) why does Iraq War (disambiguation) exist? Why isn't the disambiguation page here? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:21, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
Excellent idea to make the move, whoever it was. - St| eve 08:35, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree - much, much nicer article here at Iraq War than before at Invasion of Iraq.
OVER 2000 AMERICANS HAVE NOW DIED IN THIS WAR - END THE RETORIC AND BEGIN A REAL CONVERSATION. CALL YOUR SENATOR, YOUR CONGRESMEN, THE MEDIA EVERYONE DEMAND THAT THE ADMINISTRATION ANSWER FOR THE LIVES THEY HAVE THROWN AWAY. MAKE OCTOBER 26 A DAY OF PROTEST – STAY HOME FROM WORK, SCHOOL – WHAT EVER YOU CAN DO TO SEND A MESSAGE. THIS INSANITY HAS GOT TO END! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.59.70.22 ( talk • contribs) 25 Oct 2005. Note that this was interspersed before earlier comments
This conversation was on originally found on the Reference Desk and moved here. -- HappyCamper 11:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello does anyone know when it will end? -- Newsreporter 19:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC) I'am being serious.
Can't the Iraqi people try and get along? Shities, Sunni's and Kurds all fighting over what? -- Newsreporter 19:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Vietnam is it really going to be like that? -- Newsreporter 20:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC) I guess Vietnam was bad. Plus there is a lot of protesters around anyway like that woman that was staying near Crawford Texas. -- Newsreporter 20:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Is it that the Shities don't want the Sunni's and the Kurd's or what is the main reason for the invasion? -- Newsreporter 20:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC) Saddam Hussein was classified as a dictator but the americans have him why don't they leave?
On the matter of Sunnis vs. Shiites vs. Kurds... the Kurds want their own country, or a very seperate state, in the North of Iraq. They've wanted that for decades, actually. The Shiites want to be in charge of the country, more or less (a reasonable desire, given that they're easily the most populous group). The Sunni's also want to be in charge, and have subsequently boycotted the elections. The Americans don't want to leave until the Iraqi Army is built up enough to prevent some rogue dictator from pulling a Saddam and taking over the country. Unfortunately, the Islam militants don't realize that.
Saddam never declard Jihad. The Baath Party is largely secular and large opponents of islamists. -- Howrealisreal 15:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense. Please re-check your facts and if you do find that it is correct, please post it here cause I'd be very curious to see that. He might've called for his followers to war against the US, but that is very different from Jihad. -- Howrealisreal 00:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Good researching and I'm sorry for doubting you. It seemed very strange at first but I guess nothing is strange these days. -- Howrealisreal 03:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Trying to answer another question from Newsreporter ... Conflicts between Shites Sunnis Kurds, and other big groups in Iraq, such as organized crime which flourished under Saddam, all this is independent of the stated reasons for America invasion of Iraq. However, prior to the invasion, various Iraqi interest groups who wanted Saddam out, but did not have what it takes to get rid of him themselves, they allegedly conspired to feed phony intelligence to America, and to other nations, such as about WMD, in hopes of America invasion to oust Saddam, or some other equivalent results. So indirectly, conflicts between different groups in Iraq, could be said to have contributed to why the invasion occurred.
America cannot be policeman to the world, orchestrating regime change any place desired, such as North Korea. There has to be something to persuade Congress and Allies and UN that intervention is justfied. Look at Cuba. Many US administrations have wanted regime change there, America has the might to orchestrate it, but lacks the justification for invasion. AlMac| (talk) 07:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I moved this article back to Iraq War, because the conflict which the article covers is ongoing and did not take place exclusively in 2003. The initial invasion, which did take place only in 2003, has its own article at 2003 invasion of Iraq. This article is meant to cover both that initial invasion and the subsequent fighting. Plainsong 18:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the UK detainees recently held by Iraqi police, if they weren't in uniform or carrying their weapons openly, then they aren't protected as soldiers under the Geneva Conventions. These are the same standards used by the US and UK to classify their enemies as "unlawful combattants." For the sake of conformity, at least, the same language used to describe the insurgency should be used to describe these two ("British fighters," "British agents," etc.). Maybe "members of the British military." David Iwancio 02:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think you can compare Vietnam war to Iraqi war. Also remember that in Veitnam the US had thier ass kicked. We must not forget that the Vietnam war was mainly battling against communism and Iraqi is mainly gaining petrol. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.123.16.88 ( talk • contribs) 20 Sept 2005.
I'm curious, in what ways was the US's "ass kicked" in Vietnam? 71.133.115.162 12:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any reliable sources to verify "They were reported to having been planting bombs in a public place...". -- BeenBeren 11:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday (ca. 18:00, 19 September 2005 UTC), in a newspaper linked from news.google.com, I read aloud to my office mate that the English soldiers in Arab garb were planting bombs in public places. I cannot recall the newpaper's name and I've been going crazy trying to find it or any mention of the alleged bomb planting.
Here are two archived news sources...
http://www.bewareofthis.info/pagecache/page2902/19_basra.wmv - Two British soldiers have been arrested in the southern Iraqi city of Basra in a civilian car packed with explosives, now freed by British Commandos.
http://www.bewareofthis.info/pagecache/page2903/ - Iraqi police detained two British soldiers in civilian clothes in the southern city Basra for firing on a police station on Monday, police said. The British forces informed the Iraqi authorities that the two soldiers were performing an official duty.
I think the bomb planting claim should be removed unless we can find a source soon. -- BeenBeren 10:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bomb planting claim. -- BeenBeren 05:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Should this image be included? There is already an image from AFP and (from what is being reported) these two individuals appear to be from the SRR or SAS - both secretive units of the British Army. Their faces are usually pixelated (or whatever) to conceal their identity. Is it really appropriate to have this image? SoLando 02:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there a need to change it? In my opinion these two individuals cannot be considered as being of secret service or whatsoever, for their actions they have done. Good show thier heads, if I get a good sum of money for thier heads, they are mine. ;)
Didn't the Jazeera pic add something to the story? People can see the SAS is using Anglos for undercover, not Arabs. That adds information doesn't it? Illuminates tactics and whatnot. If the men were Arabs wouldn't the story change? After all, people throughout the Arab world (millions inside and outside Iraq) have seen this broadcast already. The pic has already been widely distributed on the Web and TV. You're only denying insight and information to Westerners. User:thadswanek
This was in the article ... but was commented out. JDR 18:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
The section below was removed wholesale from this article by User:Silverback after repeated deletions by him and subsequent reverts by various users. If information is not relevant to this article, please move it to an article where it is relevant, rather than simply deleting. There is a VfD protocol to follow for redundant information - otherwise you are taking a unilateral decision to sanitise the Wikipedia account, which is verging on vandalism. 195.157.197.108 10:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
On September 19, 2005, two British soldiers were arrested by Iraqi police in Basra following a car chase. Police officials accused them of firing at police while dressed in civilian clothes. After being approached by Iraqi police, the two soldiers reportedly fired on the police, after which they were apprehended, which sparked clashes in which UK armoured vehicles came under attack. Two civilians were reportedly killed and three UK soldiers were injured. The arrests followed the detention of two high-ranking officials of Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army
UK Ministry of Defence officials insist they have been talking to the Iraqi authorities to secure the release of the men, who were reported to be working undercover. British servicemen who were seen being injured in the graphic photographs are being treated for minor injuries only. But they do acknowledge a wall was demolished as UK forces tried to "collect" the men. However, sources in the Iraqi Interior Ministry say six tanks were used to smash down the wall in a rescue operation. Witnesses told the Associated Press around 150 prisoners escaped during the operation; Iraqi officials later denied any prisoners had escaped.
Earlier, two British Warrior AFVs, sent to the police station where the soldiers were being held, were hit by multiple petrol bombs in clashes. British officials would not say if the two men were working undercover. Crowds of angry protesters hurled petrol bombs and stones injuring three servicemen and several civilians. TV pictures showed soldiers in combat gear, clambering from one of the flaming AFVs and making their escape. In a statement, Defence Secretary John Reid said the soldiers who fled from the vehicles were being treated for minor injuries. Mr. Reid added that he was not certain what had caused the disturbances. "We remain committed to helping the Iraqi government for as long as they judge that a coalition presence is necessary to provide security," the statement said. Later British MoD reports suggested the soldiers were being handed to Iraqi insurgents by members of the Iraqi police, despite instructions from the Iraq Interior Ministry that they should be released.
Tim Collins, a former commander of troops in Iraq, described the incident with the crowd as like a "busy night in Belfast." [8]
Right now this article just looks like a condensed version of the "Invasion of Iraq" one. What's the difference between the two? In other words, what defines whether a fact should go here or there? Korny O'Near 17:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
What is the correct reference to Saddam Hussein beyond the complete name? Should he be referred to as "Saddam" or "Hussein"? Normally, Wikipedia articles have referred to the individual by their family name. ("Hussein", right?) Is that the correct method? We refer to Bill Clinton as "Clinton" and George W. Bush as "Bush" in the articles. We even use "Bush" but not merely "George" in this article. What is correct? - Tεx τ urε 19:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This article refers to the occupation in the past tense, claiming it ended on June 28th, 2004. This is not a neutral POV- international law, common sense, and the global consensus all hold that coalition forces are still occupying powers in Iraq. The article should be rephrased to make it clear that the occupation is ongoing. User:bugg42 01:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Reddi. I was looking at who rewrote the Iraq War article to a past-tense state, and found this diff which showed that you did it. The point of having an "Iraq War" article is to represent the current and ongoing war in Iraq, and to define the common term that everybody uses. While the 2003 invasion of Iraq was "mission accomplished," the "war" (according to popular consensus and terminology) continues. You even stated in the infobox "Occupation end: June 28, 2004!" Only a particular view considers the occupation over, and there are some basic facts (extended immunity for soliders, etc.) which contradict this and at the very least make the statement one of POV. There are some serious problems with the framework you rewrote it in, and there are going to have to be reverts. :( SinReg, - St| eve 04:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The Iraq War article should be in the past-tense state, as it is a finished war. The point of having an "Iraq War" article is to represent the war and other articles to delineate Iraqi insurgency. The "conflict in Iraq" as it stands now is the insurgency (some say Iraqi civil war).
Define the common term that everybody uses? Iraq insurgency does this (or more particularly Iraqi civil war does). The google results link (god results?) that you gave cover the war on terrorism, the finished iraq war, and the insurgency.
Now, after the occupation ended, a new sovereign took control of Iraq .... it's kinda telling that you bring up the banner thing .... after the 2003 invasion of Iraq there was "mission accomplished" (this, though, is a particularly misapplied event to the overall war (this was to the 'invasion of Iraq' only); it though has been disbelieved by many of the war's critics (aka. a vocal and non-neutral POV) and subsequently disputed by these critics) and the current conflict [or "war" (usually applied with an anti-war POV to "keep the war going")] is a miscategorized in reguards to the the "iraq insurgency" (that is why that article is there ...).
It is stated in the infobox "Occupation end: June 28, 2004". That is when the new Iraqi government took control of the country. This is view of UN ... who considers the occupation over. There may be a problems with the article's framework of the article if it contridicts a particular non-neutral stance. The insurgents are fighting the internationally recognized Iraqi government. The "Iraq War" article is to represent the 2003 war (and some of the "occupation") .... not the conflict concerning the insurgency and the new government (and it's allies). Sincerely, JDR 19:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
No, that is entirely a United States-based view of the situation, as dictated from POV sources. It is not even remotely the reality. For example the use of "sovereign" in reference to Iraq is often criticized as a mere propagandism. Even on its surface the article cannot take the bias you describe, because that would be deferential to only one view. Probing any deeper, we find a basic contradiction between the concepts of sovereignty and the existing state of a military occupation —which more closely resembles colonialism. As I said before, the extension of complete and total diplomatic immunity to foreign soldiers, as well as the existence and deference to legal codes established under the occupation, stand as facts in disagreement with the claim of "sovereignty." I will copy this discussion in full to the Talk:Iraq War page, and ask for further community input. - St| eve 21:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Ive been away, and will reorder some of your edits. Ive noted what youve said above, but indeed the definition of soverignty and even the UN are controversial. The UN, like other bodies often makes ceremonial degrees, in the interest of fostering consensus and progress. The links you point to were simply news stories, reporting loosely on terms used in ceremonial decrees "Security Council unanimously endorses formation of interim Iraqi government," "Security Council hails handover of authority to interim Iraqi Government," both are non-binding and non-authoritative: the UN merely "endorse[d]" and "[hail[ed]" major "landmarks" in progress which were still completely under US control. Those changes only marked the beginning of a process, said to bring Iraq to a state of sovereignty, but as it stands it is perhaps 90 percent run by a foreign government. This is all without dealing with the US' influence in the UNSC, or with the UN's use of soverignty. What do the official statements (not the news blurbs) say? Your linkage to military occupation doesnt help your case, as anyone who's looked at the article will know.
I would have been somewhat happy if you at least showed some of the nature of the basic disagreement in the footnote. Why you had not done so I dont know, I can only assume you dont understand the relevance of controversy in the context of a war --wars being known somewhat for their controversy. Instead you stand by "the war is over" because "the UN decreed Iraq a sovereign country..." If youre not simply a paid propagandist, one is forced to remember a Chomsky quote about how "it takes real dedication [to ignorance] not to perceive" (in this case) how disagreeable it is to attempt to base a free article on a controversial topic without mentioning the controversy (its a fucking war for Pete's sake) and offering merely a statist view along with flawed concepts and definitions. Anyway, I'll review your changes. - St| eve 04:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
By the way, even a cursory view of Google news searches on "Iraq sovereignty" shows the issue as an open question or otherwise simply a matter of continuing process. That definition of soverignty --as a work in process --is far more aggreeable than your preferred "UN version." Some links here, even Rush Fucking LimbauIraqi Regular Armygh says "Iraq sovereignty wasn't going to happen", Plan to Save Iraq or Break it Up? (SFGate), etc. Read for yourself. -SV
[Comment to Stevertigo's RfM]
The US Troops are there as guests of the sovereign Iraqi government, as are the US troops in Germany. So by your logic, the troops in Germany are occupying that country? Are you serious? BTW, see the main article on the occupation" According to Article 42 of the Hague Convention, "[t]erritory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army."" That's no longer true, so your opinion is wrong - the country is no longer occupied Done. NPOV. JG of Borg 00:51, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
This section is not a Debate Section. It is simply a listing of the "pro" position. There is a "criticism" section, but I note that there is a POV tag being placed on this. I have no strong feelings about the Iraq War, but I can detect propaganda, and feel that this whole article is becoming very very biased. A reader would think that it is a military manual glorifying a magnificent victory. If you hadn't noticed, the war is continuing... Wallie 08:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
The Iraq War or War in Iraq (compare: "Gulf War" of 1991) is the common term for the current and ongoing conflict in Iraq between the forces of the United States of America against native and foreign rebels (referred to by the U.S. as "insurgents"). All definitions of the term consider the "Iraq War" to have begun with the invasion of 2003, but beyond this beginning, definitions vary and may show aspects political shift, relative to public opinion.
Variance in the use of the "Iraq War" term is largely due to the basic differences in the operative definition for "war" and (military) "occupation." However in spite of any variance and shift —and perhaps attributable to simple linguistic economy —the use of the "Iraq War" term is prominent in current news and opinion reportsgn that deal with violence between (largely) native against (largely) foreign combatants.
The war has formally ended on May 1, 2003, when United Nations recognised the Iraqi goverment. The violence, however, did not end, and there is a public opposition to American involvement, both from a right and left perspective, evocing all the negative images in the 1960s of the Vietnam War.
What are we talking about in this article? About the "war" which ended in May 1, or beyond that? The first part of the intro infers that this war is still ongoing now. The second part indicates that it ended over two years ago. Which is true? And if the war is over, what is the fighting called now? Wallie 19:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
There are disagreements on the general use of the term "Iraq War." I dont see what the problem is in understanding this general ambiguity. I have laid out a basic framework by which the article can reflect and cite each particular definition, and this does so with an appropriately prominent but still limited reference to "current and ongoing" conflict one based in common liguistic economy/efficiency. This is not a definition, but merely a popular use for the term —heaven forbid that we should defer to or even recognize any general consensus in the use of the term. And who is to blame for the fact that this general usage, be generally similar (though not equivalent) to definition 1.
Comments by Reddi/JDR (and now someone else) seem to want to change the article to reflect only one particular variant —definition 2. They might debate between themselves on the definition of "occupation" etc, but IAC theirs is just one POV. Claims that the UN's ceremonial statements, or even decrees for that matter are likewise just one POV and though its preferable to reference a UN "statement of support" (not a UNSC resolution).
Look at any "war" article, and even these are controversial in terms of their scope and true origins. " The Civil War" of course is of course an elementary example of this relativism, and any "global" encyclopedia needs to qualify the term —American? Russian? English? (Is the Iraq War now a "civil war?" Even if one made a reasonable case for it, it would still only be one out of several theories.) Historical distance often doesnt really solve the problem, for example the Hundred Years' War is a later term to refer to an long-running campaign of battles between England and France. Some consider WW II to have begun with Japan's invasion of Manchuria, etc., and even a few Americentric writers think of that war as begun with Pearl Harbor. The Vietnam War likewise suffers from this POV-orientation problem —the Vietnamese consider the war as just another battle to liberate their country from foreign influence —they would even have to repel the Chinese ( ICW III) after the U.S. withdrew.
Somewhere in the mid-late 1960s U.S. general Westmoreland probably said things like "the insurgency is on the run" and the war is "in its last throes." These statements, as we now know, were not directly connected with reality, and therefore cannot be taken verbatim. The "war in Iraq", just like the "war in Vietnam" is an almost undefineable entity, and words are simply tokens —we must use and define the most common tokens used in current language. Despite any past differences in definition, most agree with two basic things about the Vietnam War the conflict began with slowly with a civil war and military buildups of North and U.S. forces. "The war," from the U.S. POV "ended" with the withdrawal of those U.S. forces. From the Vietnam POV, it "ended" with the defeat of the South government a couple years later.
Is this a "war", an "occupation" a "peacekeeping mission," or a "civil war?" It is simply an open question as long as the conflict(s) is a current event —as long as foreign forces are there en masse, and as long as there are open and severe hostilities between those same forces and a native opposition. "It" will not end until either of those conditions are met — if all foreign presence leaves and war continues between native entities, then that will be called a "civil war."
The intro appropriately states that differences in the definition come largely from differences in the definitions of "war" and "occupation." Recent and current peacekeeping missions and past peaceful occupations dont even closely resemble the current conflict in Iraq, and therefore the term "war" is (widely) used.
Reddi claims that not only is the conflict not a "war" it is also not an "occupation," (as that term carries connotation of a "belligerent occupation", as opposed to a peaceful occupation). The citation of the UN "support" of "sovereingnty" is far short of any proof that the country is in fact sovereign at this time, and though referendums and elections help improve this image, other facts hold this image in dispute. Hence the U.S. cannot refer to its occupation as a "peacekeeping" operation, for the simple reason that it began the conflict, there remains conflict now, and it (the U.S.) remains one side in the conflict. - St| eve 22:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo, please do not remove the dispute tag. You have ignored several parameters of Wikiquette (ignoring questions (see above); Being impolite; Being uncivil; etc ...) ... and are now ignoring several guidelines.
The fact that the inaccurate "general usage" characterizes "Iraq War" as beginning with the 2003 invasion, and continuous to the present should not be fostered in Wikipedia. It is a partisan view that is pushing a POV ... a direct violation of the NPOV policy. The so-called "disagreements" on the term "Iraq War" is clearly an attempt to push a POV. AND "if" there is a "general ambiguity" ... it should be taken care @ in a dsambig page not here in the article!!! This colloquial buzzword "Iraq War" refers to the insurgency and the brewing civil strife. The current environment is not a "war" ... it is a insurgency ... it is also not an "occupation", that ended @ the handover of sovergeinty! I and others have stated this and you have repeatedly said that "that's wrong" ... without any reason.
The "war in Iraq" is a defineable entity. WHO WERE THE MAJOR COMBATANTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE COMBATANTS? Please answer those two qestions and these .... where is the Iraqi Regular Army? Where is the Iraq command? Is the Iraqi Regular Army still out there fighting? Where is thier control structure and is still intact? .... did or did not the multinational forces win the war against the Iraqi Army? Sincerely, JDR 23:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Also ... as per the NPOV policy, an article should delineate the technical definition of a term/phrase. As to be used in articles, it should only be used in its technical sense (eg., one particular variant ... and the most neutral ... which is 2). It should to explain what is meant by this term in order to avoid: (a) causing unnecessary offense, and (b) misleading the reader (most people being unaware of how this word should be used; which the current article does.) There is also the UN's statements and resolutions ... which is from an authorative source ... and this a the UN "statement of support" (see the link above ... it was a _unanimous_ UNSC resolution). Sincerely, JDR
I have not been uncivil, and in fact I've been exceedingly reasonable and responsive. I removed the tag because its an annoyance, and because such should be used for specific criticism, not general malaise.
You say "the "war in Iraq" is a defineable entity." But you then use a limited definition of "war," and fail to connect the war with the "occupation." World War II didnt end for France just because Germany's invasion was "successful," France was annexed, and its occupation was largely peaceful. You even demand "WHO WERE THE MAJOR COMBATANTS? WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE COMBATANTS?" which preemptively claims this is all an issue of the past, and leaves no opening for a reply which deals with the current conflict. Your using an outdated and particularly POV definition of "war" and talk about "Iraq command" and other irrelevant BS. War is a state of conflict between parties. Just as with the Vietnam War, this war is being characterized differently by the dominant military power as an ideological one. Westmorelandspeak or Rumsfeldian notwithstanding, the reality is not limited to ideology, and certainly not in accord with the terms dictated by the aggressor. That would not be NPOV for us.
Your comments are deliberately vague, for example you claim the "inaccurate "general usage" characterizes "Iraq War" as beginning with the 2003 invasion..." makes it seem like you disagree with that basic beginning. You dont really disagree with that, do you? And if not, then we can at least agree that we agree on something, and we can work from there. Is your point of view not represented in the listed definitions, or are you simply claiming that your POV is "proper" and should dominate the article and all reference to the term?
<opportunistic political comment>It is also rather odd that one such as yourself who apparently supports a segmentalist and particularly pro-war definition for the article is worried that my wording might: "(a) causing unnecessary offense, and (b) misleading the reader" It is ironic because (a) war itself is a far more offensive act and (b) the war in question owes its existence to largely misleading statements by the offender. You even claim "(most people being unaware of how this word should be used; which the current article does)" which (a) asserts that most people are stupid and (b) that you know best how the word (term actually) "should be used." </opc> - St| eve 00:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
A NPOV is the only "proper" one and should dominate the article and all reference to the term. As with other terms (such as fundemetalism), the limited (eg., technical) definition should be used.
Now ... World War II didnt end because the Allies were still fighting the Axis .... Where is the "axis" of the Iraq War? The Allies of the multinational forces are plainly seen ... Now .... the questions are not preemptive, just simple questions ....War is a state of conflict between parties but you still have not answered the questions!!! Who were the major combabtants? What happened to the major combatants? If you would answer this would would see the issue truely. BUT because th anti-war / anti-US POV cannot accept the plain facts ... so there is no reply ...
AND ... as been said repeatedly ... the proper way to deal with the current conflicts (insurgency and secterian violence) is to refere the reader to the appropriate article. This is not "outdated" ... it is more technical and impartial ... and is the more NPOV definition of "war".
[Ignores most of the mischaracterization of my position and the "the Vietnam War" fallacious analogy] Just to let you know, the Vietnamese Opposing the United States and the South had a control structure and a viable command (eg. the NV government).
Sincerely, JDR 00:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
You say:
I assume you mean "an NPOV definition is the only proper one." I may agree, but, in the case of multiple definitions, how does one define which is "proper?" Your definition is POV in the extreme, though you like to claim it is "a NPOV." The rest seems a bit incoherent to deal with. Please edit your comments for clarity. - St| eve 00:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's pretty valuable to look at the Wikipedia entry for Sovereignty which addresses some of the points, that I believe, are at the core of a lot of disagreement on this page. The government recognized by the United Nations, United States, and others in Iraq - the government that the US has "transferred sovereignty" to, has de jure sovereignty according to the United Nations, United States, and pretty much every state that has officially weighed in on it. While recognizing any authority of law as legitimate is inherently an opinion, the argument can easily be made that it is a NPOV.
That being said, from a human rights perspective the more useful definition of sovereignty to look at is that of de facto sovereignty. The United Nations, or United States, or really anyone is not in a position to say that the government of Iraq is de facto sovereign: while it may be the opinion of the United Nations or the United States that it is, there is a large number of people who disagree, and there are frankly solid legal arguments in favor of it. Namely, the record on the ground shows that coalition troops operate outside of the scope of Iraqi law. This is significant enough where the result is to question whether the Iraqi government is de facto sovereign. If the coalition troops are not in Iraq at the request of the de facto and de jure sovereign power, then they are an occupying force under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Bugg42 22:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
This article seems as though it was written by Fox News with help from the Department of Defense. I don't want it to slant in the other direction, but it needs some neutrality.
1) "Insurgents" - this term is inherently biased. Its wide use in the mainstream press doesn't mean it's neutral.
2) Lack of cites - this article is chock-full of citeless assertions. I removed something today to the extent of "Coalition forces suspected that the insurgents were being supplied by Syrian forces. And with the amount of resistance they encountered, they were proved right." No cite. That sort of thing is wildly inappropriate in a Wikipedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blackberrylaw ( talk • contribs) 24 Oct 2005.
I don't think the term "Insurgents" is inherently biased (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgents ,
http://www.answers.com/insurgent&r=67 ,
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=insurgent ), it seems acurate and NPOV to me; it's not as if they are being called "terrorists" or "freedom fighters". "Insurgents" is term that encompases the idea of orginised rebellion against an authority, and which does not imply that this rebellion is justified/unjustified or any other POV implication. -Greeny 02 Nov 2005
The term is not used exclusively from the Pentagon .... seems to be a bit hypocritical that you cite the mass media in earlier converstions and then ignore it here, Steve. Inaddition, he Iraqi government itself has used this term. Also, the various violent groups (native and forgein; militants, thugs, or terrorists) are fighting the established sovergein of the State (and that state's allies). Sincerely, JDR 16:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Why do we list the governments of countries that opposed the war in one section, while not the (far greater number of) governments of countries that supported it in the section right before it? JG of Borg 02:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
That is a good idea ... if the anti-war proponents would allow that, I'd be in favor of including it ... JDR 20:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I read some of the above, but don't have time now for the detailed wrangling, and anyway it seems pretty irrelevant to be arguing niceties about a blunt reality. Many people have claimed that the war is over, sometimes repeatedly at different successive dates. Plainly it is not or there would not be so many foreign troops still running the country, and dying. In the technical sense, the Iraqi army was defeated years ago. But only a complete idiot would have thought that was the end of the war. Sandpiper 03:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
At WikiEN-l, steve v posted a message " Reddi and me. Contrary to his opinion, "stating that Iraq is sovereign" is a not a violation of NPOV. As Alphax alluded to ... and Delirium stated .... "Wikipedians, are [not] here to decide whether Iraq is "sovereign" or not. We should report what prominent sources say on the matter". The United Nations Security Council passed unanimously a resolution that "endorsed [...] the assumption of full responsibility and authority by a fully sovereign and independent Interim Government of Iraq".
Steve also cited Bugg42 concerning the troops and the I will basically repeat what I said above ... the coalition personnel are subject to the jurisdiction of thier parent country and this is because of an agreement with the Iraqi government and the coalition commands. This covers the soldiers and contractors working in operations conducted by mutual consent of the Iraqi government and the commands of the coalition force. Let me be clear though ... the Iraqi government can request that they abide by any particular rules or laws ... they have done this (through this agreement) ...
Steve goes on to state that the situation in Iraq is a Suzerainty. This is untrue though .... as Iraq is not a tributary to any of the multinational forces (eg., Iraq is not paying any of the multinational forces a "tribute"). Iraq also does not have a limited domestic autonomy, but is fully sovereign and independent. The multinational forces are not controlling Iraq's foreign affairs (ie., Iraq has it own diplomats and conducts it's own negotiations with other nations).
Sincerely, JDR 21:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC) (PS., Do note that the agreement between the multinational forces and the Iraqi government can be considered a type of status of forces agreement [SOFA]).
Just a note ... it is telling of a POV when Steve state's the article Iraq disarmament crisis can be renamed to Pre-Iraq War fraud ... contrary tothe facts in the Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report on the Activities of the Iraq Survey Group and the Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq’s WMD. Sincerely, JDR 22:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Or it is hidden so well that I couldn't find it in 10 minutes of reading this article. I am reffering to Iraqis attititude and opinions towards the war and reconstruction efforts. Do they support it or not? Were there any surveys conducted? Sources, please. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)