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A fact from Hypothetical partition of Belgium appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 30 September 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
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On 25 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Potential breakup of Belgium. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Perhaps we should try to add a section on the possible consequences of Flemish independence or the partition of Belgium in the current context. A number of newspapers published articles on what the consequences of an independent Flanders would be with regard to EU membership, etc. I think we can use those articles as a source of information.-- Ganchelkas 10:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
--Has anything been said about Brussels, and its officially-bilingual status (as well as its rather-unique status in EU affairs)? Right now this is just speculation on my part, but should Flanders and Wallonia become independent countries in the European Union --or part of the Netherlands and France, respectively--, could Brussels become sort-of a modern day Danzig? Could it cease being the seat of government of any particular country, and assume a full-time role as the seat of government for Europe as a whole? (Like the "Distrito Federal" of either Brazil or Mexico, or the "District of Columbia" in America?) --At any rate, I agree that only relevant information should be included, and NO original research. Pine 00:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The number needs a reference. I heard about 10% or so. SA mtm ( talk) 16:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
While I agree with Karna's opinion that the former section on political parties was more a bullet list than a correct article section, I think it should not have been deleted but expanded. The relative weights of these parties shows qualitatively the importance of the topic in the current political debatre. Their opinion with respect to the practical realization of an hypothetical partition of Belgium (e.g. whether Brussels should belong to Walonia or to Flanders) give an idea of the current possible alternatives. I think also a short description of the reasons why those parties promote or not the partition of Belgium should be included as well as an historical analysis of their electoral success. The opinion of the parties which do not have a clear position with respect to an eventual partitioning should also be analyzed and references with extracts of their manifestos or political programms. Vb 11:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit worried by the tone of the article. This could be just my impression, but I think it contains certain statements that aren't entirely NPOV and that may be biased towards Flemish nationalism. This may be due to the fact that a lot of articles on the English Wikipedia have the same or similar problems. Some examples: Saying that it was the Walloons who revolted against the Dutch is not neutral. For every historian who claims so, you can find one who claims the opposite, it's a controversial issue. Saying that there's historical continuity with, respectively, France and the Netherlands, in my view, implies that the north of Belgium was ruled by the Dutch and the south by the French, which isn't the case. The whole of the Southern Netherlands (with the exception of the Prince-Bishopric of Liège) have been ruled by the the same leader since Philip the Good. I also don't think it's a good idea to rely on the Brussels Journal, an openly separatist website, for information as the information provided by it is likely to be POV. These are just some concerns I have.-- Ganchelkas ( talk) 17:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should expand the section on parties opposed to the partition of Belgium to also include, for instance, parties that don't want the end of Belgium, but want more autonomy for the regions. I've taken the liberty of drafting a small bit on the stance of SP.A, Open Vld and Groen!:
The Socialist Party – Different (SP.A), the Flemish socialist party, states on its website that it believes an independent Flanders is not necessary. It does support the devolution of a number of additional responsibilities, such as the railways or the policy of employment. SP.A currently has 20 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 14 seats in the Belgian Chamber of Representatives and 4 seats in the Belgian Senate.
Open Vld, the Flemish liberals, wants more socio-economic and financial autonomy for Flanders, a homogenous division of responsibilities, more cooperation between the communities and regions and a strong federal state. Open Vld currently has 25 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 18 seats in the Chamber of Representatives and 9 seats in the Senate.
Groen!, the Flemish green party, wants another round in the state reform, but only if it leads to more solidarity, a better functioning of the institutions and more democracy. It states on its website that it doesn’t want to reform for the purpose of reforming. Groen! wants Belgium to remain a federal state and considers the cooperation between different communities within one state to be a challenge rather than a problem. It also pleas for federal loyalty and respect for the rulings of the Constitutional Court and wants to realise a more homogenous division of responsibilities. Groen! currently has 6 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 4 seats in the Chamber of Representatives and 2 seats in the Senate.
This still needs some work, improvement and elaborating though.-- Ganchelkas ( talk) 14:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Il faudra notamment répéter ensemble, entre francophones, que nous sommes opposés à toute scission de la sécurité sociale dans toutes ses branches (soins de santé, allocations familiales, etc.). Il faudra aussi répéter notre volonté d’élargir la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale afin notamment de donner un territoire qui relie directement la Wallonie à Bruxelles.[Transl:We, the Francophones, will all together have to insist on the fact that we are opposed to any regionalization of the welfare state in all of its components (healthcare, child benefit, etc.). We will also have to reiterate our will to expand the territory of the Brussels-Capital Region, in order to obtain among other things a territorial link between Walonia and Brussels.]
url= http://www.ps.be/Source/PageContent.aspx?ParentID=1282&MenID=4833&EntID=1 title=Communiqué de presse - 26.11.2007 publisher=Parti Socialist
Vb16:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Might be useful to include how the Netherlands and France react to all this. Are there polticians there in favour of annexing areas speaking their language? Or do they tend to stay neutral? Indisciplined ( talk) 18:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the Netherlands, but in France the official line is to support Belgian unity, not secession (for either group). See here (I'm afraid it's in French):
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/298169.FR.php "Sarkozy soutient l'unité"
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/made_in_belgique/294272.FR.php "L'inquiétude des voisins français"
There is also an interesting article here where a deputy from Brussels advocates reunion with France on a partnership basis akin to the relationship between France and French Polynesia. I don't know how seriously this man's ideas are taken in Belgium, however it says at the end of the article that he is heading to Paris to discuss this project with French politicians. In any case this article could be useful for the "citations needed" paragraph right at the beginning of this wikipedia article.
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/298173.FR.php "L’appel à une Belgique française"
I hope these can be of help. Jarby ( talk) 12:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect for the hard work done by the editors, some parts of this article seem either a bit POV or in any case, unclear.
While being aware of my own language imperfection, I do notice that the English in the text contains numerous mistakes and that the spelling is inconsistent (UK-US). But, I repeat: a very good attempt to describe this chaos. Hopefully these remarks will help to make the article a bit more neutral than it already is. Kind regards, -- Hooiwind ( talk) 19:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This article contains almost only primary sources, there is no real academic research behind that page. This is just an original research ( WP:NOR). And the title is some product of cristal ball ( WP:NOT). Surely, Wikipedia can talk about linguistic problems in Belgium, but hardly about an hypothetical partition of Belgium. Speculoos ( talk) 11:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The German-speaking Community is made up of 73,000 people in the east of Wallonia; around 10,000 German and 60,000 Belgian nationals are speakers of German. Roughly 23,000 more of German speakers live in municipalities near the official Community.[13
I simply don't understand this sentence? How can around 10,000 Germans be German speakers?? What does this actually try to say? And has there been any official word from Germany or the German Belgian community regrading the proposed split? I don't think they would want to join Wallonia as an independent nation.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.84.182.95 ( talk) 10:19, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
There is little to no info in the media regarding the German speaking communities desires? Can anyone help. The most logically step would be readmission to Germany and the North-Rhein Westphalia federal-state or perhaps as a new federal state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.24.119 ( talk) 14:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
"The partition of Belgium, or the dissolution of the Belgian state through the separation of the Dutch-speaking people of the Flanders region and Brussels from the French-speaking people of the Walloon region and Brussels, granting them either independence or respective accession to the Netherlands and France, is currently being discussed in the Belgian and international media." How unencyclopaedic! Please fix that to "has been discussed since..." (I don't know when). Belgium has been apparently "falling apart" longer than I'm alive! -- = ? 15:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
The edits of 10/9/2013 to "Belgian Nationalism" require sources. Also, if and when sources are provided, the chronology of there use needs to be ascertained. Currently, they only muddle the partition conversation. ``` Buster Seven Talk 14:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
To me, it seems that this section is bordering on POV. To my understanding, "Flanders" and "Wallonia", as defined currently, did not exist before 1840 (i.e. there was no tension between the two pre-independence). Plus, it's worth noting that only a tiny minority of people (mostly the urban bourgeois) actually spoke "French" (as opposed to Walloon, Gaumais, Picard etc.) before the 1850s. It was not unusual in C19 states to have an elite language, spoken by a few, and a "common" language, spoken by all including the elite as a colloquial language. Compare with Russia, Germany etc. where the nobility spoke French. This only became a "problem" from the 1860s with the rise of the Flemish Movement, based on romanticizing and rejuvenating the Flemish language, and the accompanying Walloon Movement. And, to pose some kind of cultural border argument between totally homogenous Germanic and Romance culture is really outdated... — Brigade Piron ( talk) 10:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I've managed to track down Deam and Hasquin, see ref 20 (very end of the §) and shoehorn them in here, and take out the citation needed tag that was in the middle of the last sentence. Hopefully later I'll manage to fix up the reference formatting. -- Thnidu ( talk) 06:46, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it's symptomatic of the preferences on the two main sides of the argument - as well as possible pro-Flemish bias in the article, but who am I to judge? - that there's a Dutch version of this article (as well as versions in Catalan, Korean, the Lombard dialect of Italy, Portuguese and Spanish), but no French version. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 14:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
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I made some hypothetical illustrative maps out of curiosity, based mostly on what I've read in this article.:
Not covering every scenario regarding Wallonia, but both extremes (remaining whole vs disintegrating into three neighbouring countries). Also just ignored Brussels.
Rob984 ( talk) 17:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
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As stated in the title I'd like to propose changing the dating format of the article. The page has a clear strong national tie to Belgium, since the article is exclusively detailing events and movements within that country. Belgium uses the dmy date format (please see - Date format by country). Your input would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time. Helper201 ( talk) 17:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 11:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Hypothetical partition of Belgium → Potential breakup of Belgium – Consistency with Potential breakup of the United Kingdom see Talk:Hypothetical_dissolution_of_the_Russian_Federation#Requested_move_25_June_2023 which is based on the same logic Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 09:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hypothetical partition of Belgium article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hypothetical partition of Belgium received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
Hypothetical partition of Belgium received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
A fact from Hypothetical partition of Belgium appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 30 September 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
On 25 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Potential breakup of Belgium. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Perhaps we should try to add a section on the possible consequences of Flemish independence or the partition of Belgium in the current context. A number of newspapers published articles on what the consequences of an independent Flanders would be with regard to EU membership, etc. I think we can use those articles as a source of information.-- Ganchelkas 10:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
--Has anything been said about Brussels, and its officially-bilingual status (as well as its rather-unique status in EU affairs)? Right now this is just speculation on my part, but should Flanders and Wallonia become independent countries in the European Union --or part of the Netherlands and France, respectively--, could Brussels become sort-of a modern day Danzig? Could it cease being the seat of government of any particular country, and assume a full-time role as the seat of government for Europe as a whole? (Like the "Distrito Federal" of either Brazil or Mexico, or the "District of Columbia" in America?) --At any rate, I agree that only relevant information should be included, and NO original research. Pine 00:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The number needs a reference. I heard about 10% or so. SA mtm ( talk) 16:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
While I agree with Karna's opinion that the former section on political parties was more a bullet list than a correct article section, I think it should not have been deleted but expanded. The relative weights of these parties shows qualitatively the importance of the topic in the current political debatre. Their opinion with respect to the practical realization of an hypothetical partition of Belgium (e.g. whether Brussels should belong to Walonia or to Flanders) give an idea of the current possible alternatives. I think also a short description of the reasons why those parties promote or not the partition of Belgium should be included as well as an historical analysis of their electoral success. The opinion of the parties which do not have a clear position with respect to an eventual partitioning should also be analyzed and references with extracts of their manifestos or political programms. Vb 11:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit worried by the tone of the article. This could be just my impression, but I think it contains certain statements that aren't entirely NPOV and that may be biased towards Flemish nationalism. This may be due to the fact that a lot of articles on the English Wikipedia have the same or similar problems. Some examples: Saying that it was the Walloons who revolted against the Dutch is not neutral. For every historian who claims so, you can find one who claims the opposite, it's a controversial issue. Saying that there's historical continuity with, respectively, France and the Netherlands, in my view, implies that the north of Belgium was ruled by the Dutch and the south by the French, which isn't the case. The whole of the Southern Netherlands (with the exception of the Prince-Bishopric of Liège) have been ruled by the the same leader since Philip the Good. I also don't think it's a good idea to rely on the Brussels Journal, an openly separatist website, for information as the information provided by it is likely to be POV. These are just some concerns I have.-- Ganchelkas ( talk) 17:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should expand the section on parties opposed to the partition of Belgium to also include, for instance, parties that don't want the end of Belgium, but want more autonomy for the regions. I've taken the liberty of drafting a small bit on the stance of SP.A, Open Vld and Groen!:
The Socialist Party – Different (SP.A), the Flemish socialist party, states on its website that it believes an independent Flanders is not necessary. It does support the devolution of a number of additional responsibilities, such as the railways or the policy of employment. SP.A currently has 20 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 14 seats in the Belgian Chamber of Representatives and 4 seats in the Belgian Senate.
Open Vld, the Flemish liberals, wants more socio-economic and financial autonomy for Flanders, a homogenous division of responsibilities, more cooperation between the communities and regions and a strong federal state. Open Vld currently has 25 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 18 seats in the Chamber of Representatives and 9 seats in the Senate.
Groen!, the Flemish green party, wants another round in the state reform, but only if it leads to more solidarity, a better functioning of the institutions and more democracy. It states on its website that it doesn’t want to reform for the purpose of reforming. Groen! wants Belgium to remain a federal state and considers the cooperation between different communities within one state to be a challenge rather than a problem. It also pleas for federal loyalty and respect for the rulings of the Constitutional Court and wants to realise a more homogenous division of responsibilities. Groen! currently has 6 seats in the Flemish Parliament, 4 seats in the Chamber of Representatives and 2 seats in the Senate.
This still needs some work, improvement and elaborating though.-- Ganchelkas ( talk) 14:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Il faudra notamment répéter ensemble, entre francophones, que nous sommes opposés à toute scission de la sécurité sociale dans toutes ses branches (soins de santé, allocations familiales, etc.). Il faudra aussi répéter notre volonté d’élargir la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale afin notamment de donner un territoire qui relie directement la Wallonie à Bruxelles.[Transl:We, the Francophones, will all together have to insist on the fact that we are opposed to any regionalization of the welfare state in all of its components (healthcare, child benefit, etc.). We will also have to reiterate our will to expand the territory of the Brussels-Capital Region, in order to obtain among other things a territorial link between Walonia and Brussels.]
url= http://www.ps.be/Source/PageContent.aspx?ParentID=1282&MenID=4833&EntID=1 title=Communiqué de presse - 26.11.2007 publisher=Parti Socialist
Vb16:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Might be useful to include how the Netherlands and France react to all this. Are there polticians there in favour of annexing areas speaking their language? Or do they tend to stay neutral? Indisciplined ( talk) 18:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the Netherlands, but in France the official line is to support Belgian unity, not secession (for either group). See here (I'm afraid it's in French):
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/298169.FR.php "Sarkozy soutient l'unité"
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/made_in_belgique/294272.FR.php "L'inquiétude des voisins français"
There is also an interesting article here where a deputy from Brussels advocates reunion with France on a partnership basis akin to the relationship between France and French Polynesia. I don't know how seriously this man's ideas are taken in Belgium, however it says at the end of the article that he is heading to Paris to discuss this project with French politicians. In any case this article could be useful for the "citations needed" paragraph right at the beginning of this wikipedia article.
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/298173.FR.php "L’appel à une Belgique française"
I hope these can be of help. Jarby ( talk) 12:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect for the hard work done by the editors, some parts of this article seem either a bit POV or in any case, unclear.
While being aware of my own language imperfection, I do notice that the English in the text contains numerous mistakes and that the spelling is inconsistent (UK-US). But, I repeat: a very good attempt to describe this chaos. Hopefully these remarks will help to make the article a bit more neutral than it already is. Kind regards, -- Hooiwind ( talk) 19:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This article contains almost only primary sources, there is no real academic research behind that page. This is just an original research ( WP:NOR). And the title is some product of cristal ball ( WP:NOT). Surely, Wikipedia can talk about linguistic problems in Belgium, but hardly about an hypothetical partition of Belgium. Speculoos ( talk) 11:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The German-speaking Community is made up of 73,000 people in the east of Wallonia; around 10,000 German and 60,000 Belgian nationals are speakers of German. Roughly 23,000 more of German speakers live in municipalities near the official Community.[13
I simply don't understand this sentence? How can around 10,000 Germans be German speakers?? What does this actually try to say? And has there been any official word from Germany or the German Belgian community regrading the proposed split? I don't think they would want to join Wallonia as an independent nation.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.84.182.95 ( talk) 10:19, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
There is little to no info in the media regarding the German speaking communities desires? Can anyone help. The most logically step would be readmission to Germany and the North-Rhein Westphalia federal-state or perhaps as a new federal state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.24.119 ( talk) 14:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
"The partition of Belgium, or the dissolution of the Belgian state through the separation of the Dutch-speaking people of the Flanders region and Brussels from the French-speaking people of the Walloon region and Brussels, granting them either independence or respective accession to the Netherlands and France, is currently being discussed in the Belgian and international media." How unencyclopaedic! Please fix that to "has been discussed since..." (I don't know when). Belgium has been apparently "falling apart" longer than I'm alive! -- = ? 15:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
The edits of 10/9/2013 to "Belgian Nationalism" require sources. Also, if and when sources are provided, the chronology of there use needs to be ascertained. Currently, they only muddle the partition conversation. ``` Buster Seven Talk 14:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
To me, it seems that this section is bordering on POV. To my understanding, "Flanders" and "Wallonia", as defined currently, did not exist before 1840 (i.e. there was no tension between the two pre-independence). Plus, it's worth noting that only a tiny minority of people (mostly the urban bourgeois) actually spoke "French" (as opposed to Walloon, Gaumais, Picard etc.) before the 1850s. It was not unusual in C19 states to have an elite language, spoken by a few, and a "common" language, spoken by all including the elite as a colloquial language. Compare with Russia, Germany etc. where the nobility spoke French. This only became a "problem" from the 1860s with the rise of the Flemish Movement, based on romanticizing and rejuvenating the Flemish language, and the accompanying Walloon Movement. And, to pose some kind of cultural border argument between totally homogenous Germanic and Romance culture is really outdated... — Brigade Piron ( talk) 10:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I've managed to track down Deam and Hasquin, see ref 20 (very end of the §) and shoehorn them in here, and take out the citation needed tag that was in the middle of the last sentence. Hopefully later I'll manage to fix up the reference formatting. -- Thnidu ( talk) 06:46, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it's symptomatic of the preferences on the two main sides of the argument - as well as possible pro-Flemish bias in the article, but who am I to judge? - that there's a Dutch version of this article (as well as versions in Catalan, Korean, the Lombard dialect of Italy, Portuguese and Spanish), but no French version. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 14:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 16:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I made some hypothetical illustrative maps out of curiosity, based mostly on what I've read in this article.:
Not covering every scenario regarding Wallonia, but both extremes (remaining whole vs disintegrating into three neighbouring countries). Also just ignored Brussels.
Rob984 ( talk) 17:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:58, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
As stated in the title I'd like to propose changing the dating format of the article. The page has a clear strong national tie to Belgium, since the article is exclusively detailing events and movements within that country. Belgium uses the dmy date format (please see - Date format by country). Your input would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time. Helper201 ( talk) 17:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 11:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Hypothetical partition of Belgium → Potential breakup of Belgium – Consistency with Potential breakup of the United Kingdom see Talk:Hypothetical_dissolution_of_the_Russian_Federation#Requested_move_25_June_2023 which is based on the same logic Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 09:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)