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As requested, quotes following: b uidh e 11:23, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
For example, following one such collective deliberation in the winter of 1943, Wenkart allowed a group of Jewish partisans to enter the camp to seek refuge from persecution by the Armia Krajowa (AK). (Farkash p. 67)
... there were several escape attempts by camp residents, even though those planning them could not be certain they would survive outside its walls. Most fell into the hands of the AK, the local population or the gendarmerie, were murdered or even returned to the camp. (Farkash p. 74)
During the course of the evacuation and the loading of belongings, about 50 Jews escaped from the camp and made their way to the forest. Most were murdered by the AK, while others retraced their steps and were sent to Częstochowa. (Farkash, p. 76; also discussed in Museum of the Jewish People source)
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Shouldn't we use historical map (WWII/SPR) instead of the current one? I am not sure if using modern one is a good idea (I notice no maps are used in other ghetto articles I checked). It creates the impression that the ghetto was build and run by modern Polish state (see Polish concentration camps controversy). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
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@ Piotrus: This is what it says in the source:
In various work-places at the airfield and beyond it, troops supervised the Jewish laborers, and according to survivors, they, too, generally treated them reasonably well. By contrast, some of the Polish supervisors abused and beat Jews, and the Ukrainian guards who supervised Jewish laborers on the railway were particularly cruel. While certain functionaries were remembered as being overtly hostile, in general within the camp itself, the Jewish laborers received relatively decent treatment. (Farkash, p. 70)
b uidh e 08:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
pl: Dęblin Synagogue refs [3] which shows a modern day shop there. Has the old building been demolished and replaced, or is it the old building restored? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
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One more minor concern about the claim from Rubin, Arnon (who is he btw? Can't find an academic bio of him). About the postwar claim that Jews where denied the right to return homes by some "commandant of the local militia". Is there any more info on this? After Soviet take over (liberation...) there was, AFAIK, no militias, just regular government, with some military elements. This is a rather dubious claim that some area would be controlled by militia; and in either case, the militia would soon be suppressed by the government. What did the government said when the locals appealed to it? Bottom line is that we can assume, based on common sense, that even if some locals where denied something by some militia, the situation would return to normal, since I am not aware of any large scale problems caused by some militia, nor that people where mass evicted. There were some issues related to property restitution and nationalization, but we would need more information on that, and in either case, those where not problems at 'local militia' level. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:26, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Because they were the inhabitants of the town Irena (Deblin), they went there with the purpose of resettling there. The commandant of the militia refused them the right of staying in Irena, maintaining that the Jews have no right to live there, without permission of Lublin.
b uidh e 22:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Another letter of complaint sent to the MAP from the Lublin area concerns the MO chief in Irena (Dęblin). In January 1945, he denied returning Jews the right to settle down in the city until they were able to produce a special permit.
In the villages and towns surrounding Radom, at least several Jews were killed during the first few months after the liberation. Many of those crimes were never reported. Even if they were, most of the murderers were never tried for their crimes. This was sometimes due to the fact that some local policemen were involved in these murders, as in the case with the murder of three Jewish women – Łaja, Gitla and Fryda Luksemburg, in March 1945 in Irena-Dęblin, a town located 65 km east of Radom. (Krzyżanowski 2013, free access here)
I think Anna Cichopek also discusses this incident on page 37 of Pogrom Żydów w Krakowie: 11 sierpnia 1945, but can't confirm without a copy of the book. b uidh e 10:15, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Ester Kaminska suffered repeated harassment and extortion from local Poles, one of whom had obtained her family's bakery from the Nazis, which led to her departure to Palestine in 1947. (Rice pp. 119–120)
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers:“In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands. (Zimmerman 2015 p. 213)
One exampleis the Polish Underground report from the Lublin district on the period endingDecember1,1943. Rather than sympathy, it expressed concern about the supposedcommunist orientation of Jewish partisans, condemning their actions. At the end of1942, it stated, the presence of communists in the region was minimal. That hadsignificantly changed with the creation, it continued, of“Bolshevik and Jewishbands”in such places as Lubertów,15miles north of Lublin, and in Włodawa,some62miles northeast of Lublin as well as in Puławy,30miles northwest ofLublin. In these locations, the report maintained, the leaders of Jewish bands madeevery effort to become subordinated to the Bolsheviks,“robbing, along with them,and beginning to cultivate communist agitation.” Zimmerman 2015 p. 361
Despite the relatively good conditions, some Jews tried to escape because they feared that the camp would be liquidated. The Luftwaffe camp command imposed collective punishment to deter escapees. [1] According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The organization itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from Polish peasants. [2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured and others returned to the camp. [1] Several members of the Kowalczyk family were honored as Righteous Among the Nations for sheltering Jews who had escaped from the camp. [3] Árpád Szabó, a Hungarian military doctor, was similarly recognized for smuggling a Slovak Jewish couple to Hungary. [4]
References
I've tried to implement some of the suggestions and address the concerns made above since it looked like consensus was reached but the corresponding change was never made. However I was reverted by Buidhe with the usual "get consensus" edit summary.
BTW, the Zimmerman source in the article was not ... represented correctly. Volunteer Marek 05:35, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Buidhe. Please stop edit warring - it took you less than 45 minutes to jump in and start with the reverts! Please stop using aggressive edit summaries like "Go take it up with the FAC source reviewer." (no, I'm not going to "take it up" with a "FAC source reviewer" - who? - nor do I have to. I'm taking it up with the person who put the misrepresentation of the source in the article in the first place. You. AFAICT no one ever checked that source), or "Your claims (...) are baseless" (I have Zimmerman in front of me right now and he says nothing about "Jewish fugitives" on the pages given. In fact page 361 doesn't even mention Deblin or Irena!). Please stop claiming "no consensus! no consensus!" when very clearly in the discussion above the very same concerns have already been raised (use of graduate student's work for WP:REDFLAG claims. In fact you yourself acknowledged these concerns in a positive manner in your comments from December! So why are you reverting now?). And please try discussing on talk. Volunteer Marek 07:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Harrias ( talk · contribs) 11:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
I'll take a look at this shortly.
Harrias
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11:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
"Modrzyc" is a neighborhood in Dęblin.
Overall, good work as always, mostly minor prose points to resolve. Harrias talk 16:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a discrepancy when referring to Jewish versus AK/Polish partisans as "bandits". Past discussions on this issue include Talk:Home_Army/Archive_5#Attitude_towards_refugees. Zimmerman states in The Polish Underground and the Jews:
The use of the term “bandit groups” to describe Jewish fugitives from the ghettos during the liquidation campaigns began to be more pronounced. To many Jewish historians, the appearance of this term in underground reports revealed a gross lack of sympathy for the predicament of Jews in hiding.
In the summer of 1943, the Polish Underground’s reports on banditry routinely named Jews as important players but rarely expressed sympathy or understanding for them as objects of ruthless, unmasked genocide on the part of the occupation regime.
Having fled from ghettos and camps to the forests, where Jews were being hunted down like wild animals, and being forced to seize food from farmers to stay alive, Gen. Komorowski described these same people as “criminal and subversive elements. No communication from the commander was ever disseminated to the rural population calling upon them to aid their fellow citizens in dire straits.”
That's why Jews should be called partisans or refugees (or perhaps fugitives) but not "bands". ( t · c) buidhe 03:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
one person's terrorist is another person's freedomfighterand
the "fugitives" were stealing resources from the peasants- is WP:FORUM at best. François Robere ( talk) 09:28, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The Yad Vashem source never says that this family's effort was at all related to the local attitude towards Jews, so this sentence is entirely WP:SYNTH. [12] Remember, none of these individuals credited with rescuing Jews get a mention in any of the secondary sources on the town, so I have to conclude that expanding at all would be WP:UNDUE. (Removing entirely would be fine by me.) As for this, [13] it's hardly a trivial detail. ( t · c) buidhe 04:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I also oppose the addition of this text in the article, as it is unnecessary detail which causes bloating in the article. The article doesn't need to be specific on the socio-economic status of this family or how many people they saved because the article is not about the family; it's about the Jewish people in this area during WWII. Z1720 ( talk) 20:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
re: [17]
Please provide quotations to support the statement made that are being disputed. TIA. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:07, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Disputed text for clarity below - GizzyCatBella 🍁 08:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from ethnic Polish peasants. [2] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp. [3] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
Buidhe, could you clarify the major concern VM raised rather than reverting [18]. Such a reaction is not what's expected. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
"Bands" is just a pejorative word used to describe Jews who were on the run from German authorities and trying to survive"? (For clarity, I'm talking about Jewish fugitives in general, not Communist groups, which they are referring to as "bands.") - GizzyCatBella 🍁 03:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
No, no, no.. and I'm completely puzzled by your ( Z1720 and CMD) analysis of the given sources. So, according to you, this quote from the source -
"In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands"
Supports this text in our article?
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from ethnic Polish peasants.
Am I understanding you correctly? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 09:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll write exactly what this particular quote says. You are welcome to include that in the article if that source is to be used. See below:
In 1943, the Home Army reported the presence of communist groups mainly consisting of Jews who, according to the report, stole food and resources from peasants. The report noted that the local population, somehow favorable to communism in general, was intensely hostile to these Jewish communist groups.
I believe this will solve the first portion; I'll move to the next later. GizzyCatBella 🍁 15:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
So in an effort to come to a resolution, how is the text below?
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.[1] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp.[2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
This changes "local ethnic Polish population" to "the local non-Jewish population", "hostile to Jewish fugitives" to "hostile to Jewish people,", "stealing from ethnic Polish peasants." to "stealing from local peasants." I don't see text in the source that supports that Jewish bands were fugitives, as the text doesn't specify where the Jewish people in the bands came from. If there is text the describes the people's origins, please provide a quote below and we can include it as a reference. Is this an acceptable change? Z1720 ( talk) 23:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
... the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish peoplethe source says ...hostile to the Jewish communist bands. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Could you please quote what part you are referring to that justified the removal of the tag? Thanks - GizzyCatBella 🍁 03:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jews.
Using the source text:
"In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.”"
I can propose the content:
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division said communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He says that according to a Home Army report, while the local population had rather favorable relations with communism, they were hostile to these groups who took their food and resources.
Two points for context. (i) Elsewhere Zimmerman shows that Jews were barred from some units of the Home Army, indicating that joining or forming communist partisan groups was the obvious alternative. I would add a line of sourced content showing there were very good reasons why Jews joined communist groups; the place of the Antisemitism is not the depiction of the communist groups as heavily Jewish, it's the barring of Jews from some elements of the Home Army that was Antisemitic. (ii) Zimmerman is treating the Home Army as an inevitably biased primary source, not a source that cannot be used because it 'lacks credibility'. Both in academia and at Wikipedia, one expects bias in primary sources and this does not mean they lack credibility. Note that 48% of all reports received by the British secret services from continental Europe in WWII came from Polish sources, mainly the Home Army. The total number of those reports is estimated about 80,000, of which 85% of them were "high or better quality". [4] As a primary source, the Home Army is just as unreliable and as credible as any other Allied force. -- Chumchum7 ( talk) 05:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
How about we use “said” instead of “accused” (since the second is WP:OR) and “groups” instead of “bands” or “fugitives”? Wouldn’t that solve the issues? Volunteer Marek 05:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Unlike in most other German-occupied countries, where fines or imprisonment was the normal penalty, in Poland, the death penalty was prescribed for rendering assistance (even a cup of water) to the Jews. In Poland, this penalty was routinely and summarily imposed on the offenders and their entire family.
Page 141 if you need to confirm [20] By the way, I'm always happy to help with information, so if you need anything else, don't hesitate to ask. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 10:00, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
@ buidhe In working towards WP:CONS, do you have any proposed adjustment to my above attempt to achieve consensus content? Your needs are as important as everyone else's. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 18:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.[1] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp.[2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
@ Z1720 - First, you write in your comment above - "If we are describing that the local population was favourable to communist bands, we need to list that the locals were not favourable to Jewish bands". The source does not say that locals were favorable to communist bands but favorable to communism. Second, the text you are posting is identical to what you already posted in this thread, and it was rejected. What's the point of posting it twice?
Here is the text I'm proposing, which is comparable to Chumchum7's proposal with a little tweak:
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division reported communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He writes that according to a Home Army report, the local population had relatively favorable views of communism but some were hostile to communist Jewish groups who seized their food and resources.
The above captured form RS quote:
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.
In my judgment, both Chumchum7's and mine are accurate descriptions of what the quote says. Yours is way off, and that was discussed already. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 23:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Okay, so lets editors select.
We are going to break your proposal into two parts; Zimmerman's book first. As of now, we are ONLY discussing that part. The second part we will do later since it's a different author and different quote.
Question:
Which text matches the below quote more accurately?
Quote from the Zimmerman’s book:
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.
Proposed text A
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division reported communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He writes that according to a Home Army report, the local rural population had relatively favorable views of communism but some were hostile to communist Jewish groups who stole their food and resources.
OR
Proposed text B
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.
Please choose below A or B only without any with a brief comment if nessesary.
@ GizzyCatBella: This proposal is a great start but it needs some edits before it is ready for comments. First of all, there are many quotes from Zimmerman's book I sourced in my proposal and these additional quotes need to be included. Also, I noticed that you did not include the second sentence from my proposal, sourced to Farkash. Why was that excluded?
I would also like the choice of texts to be set up as a request for comment. This would allow new editors, who have not been following this discussion, to evaluate the text and give new perspectives. The more voices that participate, the more likely (hopefully) that a consensus will be reached. I also want to encourage editors to give feedback on why they selected their preference so I want to remove the stipulation that editors only provide a brief comment. The RFC will also create a new section on the talk page, so that editors are not intimidated by the large amount of discussion this topic has already produced. A draft text for the RFC will be posted as a new section below. Once the language of the proposal is finalised, I will either post the RFC myself or have another editor set up the RFC. Z1720 ( talk) 21:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Our article in the Aftermath section reads:
Some of the Jewish survivors, who attempted to return home in January 1945, were told by the local Milicja Obywatelska police chief that it was illegal for them to settle in the town.
First
Milicja Obywatelska translates to Citizen's Militia, so it's not police. It should be - chief of local Milicja Obywatelska, not Milicja Obywatelska police chief.
Second
Source one reads (Kopciowski, Adam 2008 page 202)
In February 1945 ... Citizens Militia made it difficult for Jews returning to Dęblin-Irena to obtain residence permits.
Source two reads (Rice 2017 page 29):
In Dęblin Irena (near Krakow) Jews were informed that they could legally settle in only three cities, Lublin, Włodawa, and Żelechów.
Source three reads (Koźmińska-Frejlak, Ewa 2014 page 154):
... MO chief in Irena (Dęblin). In January 1945, he denied returning Jews the right to settle down in the city until they were able to produce a special permit.
The source that talks about MO chief in Dęblin don't say that he told Jewish survivors that it's illegal to settle. It says that he told them to obtain a permit before being allowed to settle. The sources don't say that some Jews had difficulties. Then if not some, then all faced a similar difficulty.
So taking these three sources provided as a base, the information should be recorded something like this:
In January 1945, Jewish survivors who attempted to return home to Dęblin-Irena were informed that they could settle legally only in other towns and that they need a special permit before settling in Dęblin-Irena. Milicja Obywatelska made it challenging for returning Jews to acquire residency permits.
- GizzyCatBella 🍁 08:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Jewish survivors who attempted to return home in early 1945 found that the local Milicja Obywatelska (police) obstructed them from obtaining residence permits.( t · c) buidhe 08:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
As requested, quotes following: b uidh e 11:23, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
For example, following one such collective deliberation in the winter of 1943, Wenkart allowed a group of Jewish partisans to enter the camp to seek refuge from persecution by the Armia Krajowa (AK). (Farkash p. 67)
... there were several escape attempts by camp residents, even though those planning them could not be certain they would survive outside its walls. Most fell into the hands of the AK, the local population or the gendarmerie, were murdered or even returned to the camp. (Farkash p. 74)
During the course of the evacuation and the loading of belongings, about 50 Jews escaped from the camp and made their way to the forest. Most were murdered by the AK, while others retraced their steps and were sent to Częstochowa. (Farkash, p. 76; also discussed in Museum of the Jewish People source)
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Shouldn't we use historical map (WWII/SPR) instead of the current one? I am not sure if using modern one is a good idea (I notice no maps are used in other ghetto articles I checked). It creates the impression that the ghetto was build and run by modern Polish state (see Polish concentration camps controversy). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
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@ Piotrus: This is what it says in the source:
In various work-places at the airfield and beyond it, troops supervised the Jewish laborers, and according to survivors, they, too, generally treated them reasonably well. By contrast, some of the Polish supervisors abused and beat Jews, and the Ukrainian guards who supervised Jewish laborers on the railway were particularly cruel. While certain functionaries were remembered as being overtly hostile, in general within the camp itself, the Jewish laborers received relatively decent treatment. (Farkash, p. 70)
b uidh e 08:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
pl: Dęblin Synagogue refs [3] which shows a modern day shop there. Has the old building been demolished and replaced, or is it the old building restored? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
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One more minor concern about the claim from Rubin, Arnon (who is he btw? Can't find an academic bio of him). About the postwar claim that Jews where denied the right to return homes by some "commandant of the local militia". Is there any more info on this? After Soviet take over (liberation...) there was, AFAIK, no militias, just regular government, with some military elements. This is a rather dubious claim that some area would be controlled by militia; and in either case, the militia would soon be suppressed by the government. What did the government said when the locals appealed to it? Bottom line is that we can assume, based on common sense, that even if some locals where denied something by some militia, the situation would return to normal, since I am not aware of any large scale problems caused by some militia, nor that people where mass evicted. There were some issues related to property restitution and nationalization, but we would need more information on that, and in either case, those where not problems at 'local militia' level. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:26, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Because they were the inhabitants of the town Irena (Deblin), they went there with the purpose of resettling there. The commandant of the militia refused them the right of staying in Irena, maintaining that the Jews have no right to live there, without permission of Lublin.
b uidh e 22:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Another letter of complaint sent to the MAP from the Lublin area concerns the MO chief in Irena (Dęblin). In January 1945, he denied returning Jews the right to settle down in the city until they were able to produce a special permit.
In the villages and towns surrounding Radom, at least several Jews were killed during the first few months after the liberation. Many of those crimes were never reported. Even if they were, most of the murderers were never tried for their crimes. This was sometimes due to the fact that some local policemen were involved in these murders, as in the case with the murder of three Jewish women – Łaja, Gitla and Fryda Luksemburg, in March 1945 in Irena-Dęblin, a town located 65 km east of Radom. (Krzyżanowski 2013, free access here)
I think Anna Cichopek also discusses this incident on page 37 of Pogrom Żydów w Krakowie: 11 sierpnia 1945, but can't confirm without a copy of the book. b uidh e 10:15, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Ester Kaminska suffered repeated harassment and extortion from local Poles, one of whom had obtained her family's bakery from the Nazis, which led to her departure to Palestine in 1947. (Rice pp. 119–120)
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers:“In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands. (Zimmerman 2015 p. 213)
One exampleis the Polish Underground report from the Lublin district on the period endingDecember1,1943. Rather than sympathy, it expressed concern about the supposedcommunist orientation of Jewish partisans, condemning their actions. At the end of1942, it stated, the presence of communists in the region was minimal. That hadsignificantly changed with the creation, it continued, of“Bolshevik and Jewishbands”in such places as Lubertów,15miles north of Lublin, and in Włodawa,some62miles northeast of Lublin as well as in Puławy,30miles northwest ofLublin. In these locations, the report maintained, the leaders of Jewish bands madeevery effort to become subordinated to the Bolsheviks,“robbing, along with them,and beginning to cultivate communist agitation.” Zimmerman 2015 p. 361
Despite the relatively good conditions, some Jews tried to escape because they feared that the camp would be liquidated. The Luftwaffe camp command imposed collective punishment to deter escapees. [1] According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The organization itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from Polish peasants. [2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured and others returned to the camp. [1] Several members of the Kowalczyk family were honored as Righteous Among the Nations for sheltering Jews who had escaped from the camp. [3] Árpád Szabó, a Hungarian military doctor, was similarly recognized for smuggling a Slovak Jewish couple to Hungary. [4]
References
I've tried to implement some of the suggestions and address the concerns made above since it looked like consensus was reached but the corresponding change was never made. However I was reverted by Buidhe with the usual "get consensus" edit summary.
BTW, the Zimmerman source in the article was not ... represented correctly. Volunteer Marek 05:35, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Buidhe. Please stop edit warring - it took you less than 45 minutes to jump in and start with the reverts! Please stop using aggressive edit summaries like "Go take it up with the FAC source reviewer." (no, I'm not going to "take it up" with a "FAC source reviewer" - who? - nor do I have to. I'm taking it up with the person who put the misrepresentation of the source in the article in the first place. You. AFAICT no one ever checked that source), or "Your claims (...) are baseless" (I have Zimmerman in front of me right now and he says nothing about "Jewish fugitives" on the pages given. In fact page 361 doesn't even mention Deblin or Irena!). Please stop claiming "no consensus! no consensus!" when very clearly in the discussion above the very same concerns have already been raised (use of graduate student's work for WP:REDFLAG claims. In fact you yourself acknowledged these concerns in a positive manner in your comments from December! So why are you reverting now?). And please try discussing on talk. Volunteer Marek 07:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Harrias ( talk · contribs) 11:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
I'll take a look at this shortly.
Harrias
talk
11:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
"Modrzyc" is a neighborhood in Dęblin.
Overall, good work as always, mostly minor prose points to resolve. Harrias talk 16:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a discrepancy when referring to Jewish versus AK/Polish partisans as "bandits". Past discussions on this issue include Talk:Home_Army/Archive_5#Attitude_towards_refugees. Zimmerman states in The Polish Underground and the Jews:
The use of the term “bandit groups” to describe Jewish fugitives from the ghettos during the liquidation campaigns began to be more pronounced. To many Jewish historians, the appearance of this term in underground reports revealed a gross lack of sympathy for the predicament of Jews in hiding.
In the summer of 1943, the Polish Underground’s reports on banditry routinely named Jews as important players but rarely expressed sympathy or understanding for them as objects of ruthless, unmasked genocide on the part of the occupation regime.
Having fled from ghettos and camps to the forests, where Jews were being hunted down like wild animals, and being forced to seize food from farmers to stay alive, Gen. Komorowski described these same people as “criminal and subversive elements. No communication from the commander was ever disseminated to the rural population calling upon them to aid their fellow citizens in dire straits.”
That's why Jews should be called partisans or refugees (or perhaps fugitives) but not "bands". ( t · c) buidhe 03:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
one person's terrorist is another person's freedomfighterand
the "fugitives" were stealing resources from the peasants- is WP:FORUM at best. François Robere ( talk) 09:28, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The Yad Vashem source never says that this family's effort was at all related to the local attitude towards Jews, so this sentence is entirely WP:SYNTH. [12] Remember, none of these individuals credited with rescuing Jews get a mention in any of the secondary sources on the town, so I have to conclude that expanding at all would be WP:UNDUE. (Removing entirely would be fine by me.) As for this, [13] it's hardly a trivial detail. ( t · c) buidhe 04:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I also oppose the addition of this text in the article, as it is unnecessary detail which causes bloating in the article. The article doesn't need to be specific on the socio-economic status of this family or how many people they saved because the article is not about the family; it's about the Jewish people in this area during WWII. Z1720 ( talk) 20:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
re: [17]
Please provide quotations to support the statement made that are being disputed. TIA. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:07, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Disputed text for clarity below - GizzyCatBella 🍁 08:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from ethnic Polish peasants. [2] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp. [3] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
Buidhe, could you clarify the major concern VM raised rather than reverting [18]. Such a reaction is not what's expected. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
"Bands" is just a pejorative word used to describe Jews who were on the run from German authorities and trying to survive"? (For clarity, I'm talking about Jewish fugitives in general, not Communist groups, which they are referring to as "bands.") - GizzyCatBella 🍁 03:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
No, no, no.. and I'm completely puzzled by your ( Z1720 and CMD) analysis of the given sources. So, according to you, this quote from the source -
"In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands"
Supports this text in our article?
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jewish fugitives. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from ethnic Polish peasants.
Am I understanding you correctly? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 09:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll write exactly what this particular quote says. You are welcome to include that in the article if that source is to be used. See below:
In 1943, the Home Army reported the presence of communist groups mainly consisting of Jews who, according to the report, stole food and resources from peasants. The report noted that the local population, somehow favorable to communism in general, was intensely hostile to these Jewish communist groups.
I believe this will solve the first portion; I'll move to the next later. GizzyCatBella 🍁 15:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
So in an effort to come to a resolution, how is the text below?
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.[1] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp.[2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
This changes "local ethnic Polish population" to "the local non-Jewish population", "hostile to Jewish fugitives" to "hostile to Jewish people,", "stealing from ethnic Polish peasants." to "stealing from local peasants." I don't see text in the source that supports that Jewish bands were fugitives, as the text doesn't specify where the Jewish people in the bands came from. If there is text the describes the people's origins, please provide a quote below and we can include it as a reference. Is this an acceptable change? Z1720 ( talk) 23:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
... the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish peoplethe source says ...hostile to the Jewish communist bands. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Could you please quote what part you are referring to that justified the removal of the tag? Thanks - GizzyCatBella 🍁 03:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local ethnic Polish population was hostile to Jews.
Using the source text:
"In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.”"
I can propose the content:
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division said communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He says that according to a Home Army report, while the local population had rather favorable relations with communism, they were hostile to these groups who took their food and resources.
Two points for context. (i) Elsewhere Zimmerman shows that Jews were barred from some units of the Home Army, indicating that joining or forming communist partisan groups was the obvious alternative. I would add a line of sourced content showing there were very good reasons why Jews joined communist groups; the place of the Antisemitism is not the depiction of the communist groups as heavily Jewish, it's the barring of Jews from some elements of the Home Army that was Antisemitic. (ii) Zimmerman is treating the Home Army as an inevitably biased primary source, not a source that cannot be used because it 'lacks credibility'. Both in academia and at Wikipedia, one expects bias in primary sources and this does not mean they lack credibility. Note that 48% of all reports received by the British secret services from continental Europe in WWII came from Polish sources, mainly the Home Army. The total number of those reports is estimated about 80,000, of which 85% of them were "high or better quality". [4] As a primary source, the Home Army is just as unreliable and as credible as any other Allied force. -- Chumchum7 ( talk) 05:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
How about we use “said” instead of “accused” (since the second is WP:OR) and “groups” instead of “bands” or “fugitives”? Wouldn’t that solve the issues? Volunteer Marek 05:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Unlike in most other German-occupied countries, where fines or imprisonment was the normal penalty, in Poland, the death penalty was prescribed for rendering assistance (even a cup of water) to the Jews. In Poland, this penalty was routinely and summarily imposed on the offenders and their entire family.
Page 141 if you need to confirm [20] By the way, I'm always happy to help with information, so if you need anything else, don't hesitate to ask. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 10:00, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
@ buidhe In working towards WP:CONS, do you have any proposed adjustment to my above attempt to achieve consensus content? Your needs are as important as everyone else's. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 18:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.[1] According to Farkash, in 1943, Wenkert allowed a group of Jewish partisans seeking refuge from a hostile unit of the Polish Home Army resistance group into the camp.[2] Most Jews who tried to escape were captured, and others returned to the camp.
@ Z1720 - First, you write in your comment above - "If we are describing that the local population was favourable to communist bands, we need to list that the locals were not favourable to Jewish bands". The source does not say that locals were favorable to communist bands but favorable to communism. Second, the text you are posting is identical to what you already posted in this thread, and it was rejected. What's the point of posting it twice?
Here is the text I'm proposing, which is comparable to Chumchum7's proposal with a little tweak:
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division reported communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He writes that according to a Home Army report, the local population had relatively favorable views of communism but some were hostile to communist Jewish groups who seized their food and resources.
The above captured form RS quote:
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.
In my judgment, both Chumchum7's and mine are accurate descriptions of what the quote says. Yours is way off, and that was discussed already. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 23:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Okay, so lets editors select.
We are going to break your proposal into two parts; Zimmerman's book first. As of now, we are ONLY discussing that part. The second part we will do later since it's a different author and different quote.
Question:
Which text matches the below quote more accurately?
Quote from the Zimmerman’s book:
In Dęblin, a town 43 miles northwest of Lublin, the Home Army anticommunist division noted the presence of communist bands that it claimed consisted primarily of Jews. These bands, according to the report, stole food and resources from farmers: “In general, relations of the local population to communism is [sic] rather favorable. But the same people are decidedly hostile to the Jewish bands.
Proposed text A
According to Zimmerman, a Home Army anti-communist division reported communist groups around Dęblin primarily consisted of Jews. He writes that according to a Home Army report, the local rural population had relatively favorable views of communism but some were hostile to communist Jewish groups who stole their food and resources.
OR
Proposed text B
According to a 1943 Home Army report, the local non-Jewish population was hostile to Jewish people. The Home Army itself accused Jews of joining Communist partisan groups and stealing from local peasants.
Please choose below A or B only without any with a brief comment if nessesary.
@ GizzyCatBella: This proposal is a great start but it needs some edits before it is ready for comments. First of all, there are many quotes from Zimmerman's book I sourced in my proposal and these additional quotes need to be included. Also, I noticed that you did not include the second sentence from my proposal, sourced to Farkash. Why was that excluded?
I would also like the choice of texts to be set up as a request for comment. This would allow new editors, who have not been following this discussion, to evaluate the text and give new perspectives. The more voices that participate, the more likely (hopefully) that a consensus will be reached. I also want to encourage editors to give feedback on why they selected their preference so I want to remove the stipulation that editors only provide a brief comment. The RFC will also create a new section on the talk page, so that editors are not intimidated by the large amount of discussion this topic has already produced. A draft text for the RFC will be posted as a new section below. Once the language of the proposal is finalised, I will either post the RFC myself or have another editor set up the RFC. Z1720 ( talk) 21:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Our article in the Aftermath section reads:
Some of the Jewish survivors, who attempted to return home in January 1945, were told by the local Milicja Obywatelska police chief that it was illegal for them to settle in the town.
First
Milicja Obywatelska translates to Citizen's Militia, so it's not police. It should be - chief of local Milicja Obywatelska, not Milicja Obywatelska police chief.
Second
Source one reads (Kopciowski, Adam 2008 page 202)
In February 1945 ... Citizens Militia made it difficult for Jews returning to Dęblin-Irena to obtain residence permits.
Source two reads (Rice 2017 page 29):
In Dęblin Irena (near Krakow) Jews were informed that they could legally settle in only three cities, Lublin, Włodawa, and Żelechów.
Source three reads (Koźmińska-Frejlak, Ewa 2014 page 154):
... MO chief in Irena (Dęblin). In January 1945, he denied returning Jews the right to settle down in the city until they were able to produce a special permit.
The source that talks about MO chief in Dęblin don't say that he told Jewish survivors that it's illegal to settle. It says that he told them to obtain a permit before being allowed to settle. The sources don't say that some Jews had difficulties. Then if not some, then all faced a similar difficulty.
So taking these three sources provided as a base, the information should be recorded something like this:
In January 1945, Jewish survivors who attempted to return home to Dęblin-Irena were informed that they could settle legally only in other towns and that they need a special permit before settling in Dęblin-Irena. Milicja Obywatelska made it challenging for returning Jews to acquire residency permits.
- GizzyCatBella 🍁 08:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Jewish survivors who attempted to return home in early 1945 found that the local Milicja Obywatelska (police) obstructed them from obtaining residence permits.( t · c) buidhe 08:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)