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All the citations above are included in the last version that I wrote. In the first footnotes there, it is clear from both Masica and Cardona/Jain's Indo Aryan Lanugages that the name Hindustani is not used any more. It is an obsolete name. It is archaic. It is only informally used for the common syntactic and lexical base of the Indo-Aryan vernaculars of the Upper Ganges Valley. All the quotes that you are repeating here for the ad nauseam are already there in that version. If you want to creat a new page on Hindi Urdu (which is not piped to Hindustani) be my guest. But the term Hindustani is not used for a living language. I will be putting POV templates on the page. Please do not remove it. I know what I'm doing. And I will purue other forms of dispute resolution on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Hindustani officially disappeared after 1947; neither Schedule VIII of the Constitution of India, which enumerates the languages of India, nor the official documents of Pakistan make even a cursory mention of it (G. C. Narang, personal communication). Unofficially, the Hindustani lingua franca is a fully functioning vernacular link language in India, Pakistan and among the South Asian diaspora." (p. 319) which basically means after the independence the term 'Hindustani' ceased to be used, and was replaced by "Hindi" and "Urdu" in India and Pakistan respectively, not that "Hindustani" ceased to exist but it just that people stopped using that term.
— page 319.
@ Fowler&fowler: You have on several occasions (e.g. [1]) implied with your comments that the other editors in this discussion lack the appropriate competence in the subject of this article. In this context, can you please explain the following two related statements which you have made earlier in the discussion:
More spefically I ask: 1. What has the genealogical classification of a language ("Central Indo-Aryan") to do with a "label of a normative language variety"? 2. Can you a provide source which classifies Hindustani anything other than "Central Indo-Aryan"? Thank you. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
@ Fowler&fowler::I understand your concern regarding Hindi-POV promoters, it can indeed be discussed here and I will definitely support a neutral POV provided it is backed by reliable sources. As for your claim that Hindustani is "dead" or "not a living language", it stands as a fallacy. Hindustani exists as a fully functioning living language except with a different nomenclature. If you think otherwise, I am absolutely sorry for you! - Sattvic7 ( talk) 16:45, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Really? I have made my arguments all backed by citations (with quotes). It is, my friend, you with your wishful theories beating about the bush. Here are the citations that I earlier provided to show you that Hindustani is "Central Indo-Aryan" [1] [2] and I also cited Cardona(2003) to prove that Hindustani is not dead language. But I should've know that I was beating a dead horse. In my opinion, the template should be removed as soon as possible, we all are just wasting our time. This discussion is gonna go nowhere from here. - Sattvic7 ( talk) 18:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
References
Here is a nice quote from a text in a tertiary source. It starts:
Hindustani language, lingua franca of northern India and Pakistan. Two variants of Hindustani, Urdu and Hindi, are official languages in Pakistan and India, respectively.
This is not really a far cry from the current version of the lede, which – among other things – is so vehemently contested by a single editor. Less elaborate maybe, but the "template" is the same: lemma is "Hindustani", a living language, with two standardized variants called "Hindi" and "Urdu". The same text ends as follows:
More than 100 million individuals, including more than 50 million people in India, speak Urdu; many of these individuals may actually use Hindustani for ordinary communication. Approximately 550 million people speak Hindi, and sizable portions of this group, especially those who live in cities, are known to use Hindustani rather than Sanskritized Hindi in ordinary speech. Thus, while Hindustani may not survive as a literary language, it continues to thrive as a vernacular.
These quotes are from Encyclopædia Britannica, entry "Hindustani language". @ Kautilya3: See, we actually can trust Britannica; less trustworthy, however, is Britannica + cherry picking. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:59, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Note:Please do not comment in this section; do so only in the subsection below.
Thesis: There is no living "Hindustani language."
I became interested in the page Hindustani language over a month ago when I began to think about polishing and updating a page Company rule in India for eventual submission as a Featured Article Candidate. I could see right away that the Hindustani language page had been subject to major OR, Synthesis, and POV promotion. Hindustani is a historical term. It was applied to a language, which was mostly identified with Urdu, during both Company rule in India and British Raj days. Although the term "Hindustani," had been used before occasionally, it began to see wider and more systematic use after the Anglo-Maratha wars when the Company acquired the Ceded and Conquered Provinces (the old United Provinces minus Oudh/Awadh). Lord Wellesley proposed that all Company civil servants should have basic tools of communication with the new and very large populations whose responsibility of governance now rested on their shoulders. Knowledgable people at the Company thought that a simplified version of the Urdu language of the Mughals would be that language. At Fort William College in Calcutta, a basic course in this simple language was created and Company officials were thereafter required to take the course and pass an exam. The term "Hindustani," was typically not applied to Urdu poetry (say, of Mir Taqi Mir, which was highly Persianized) but more for the proposed language of legal documents (wills, land sales, etc). It remained so until the British left. I have several such documents from the 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact, Urdu Prose, and later Hindi itself, both prose and poetry, in the form now defined, arose at Fort William College. In the first half of the 20th century, Gandhi and some other Indian nationalists—worrying about an eventual successor state to the British Raj, its languages of administration, and some way of accommodating Hindi—proposed that an even more simple version of the Hindustani that could either continue to be written in Perso-Arabic or in the rapidly but newly standardized Hindi in Devanagari. With that conviction, Gandhi began to learn the Perso-Arabic script (and by the early 1930s was writing simple letters in it) and also started the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha, an organization for promoting Hindi in South India (see the history of the page.) In the end, however, it was not Hindustani, but Hindi that became the official language of India, and the subject of major promotion by the state. That was it. Very rapidly the term "Hindustani" disappeared. (See David Lelyveld's brilliant article: Colonial Knowledge and the Fate of Hindustani, Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 665-682 (18 pages), JSTOR url.) Neither the governments of India nor Pakistan has made even a cursory reference to Hindustani after 1947. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Since @ Kautilya3: had mentioned Tariq Rahman, what Hindustani was is eloquently summed up in the conclusion of Tariq Rahman's article, "British Learning of Hindustani":
Hindustani was the name the British gave to Urdu in India. They imagined it as an India-wide language; a lingua franca which it probably was not before their arrival. They spread it all over the country by using it in the army, to talk to servants and subordinates. They also spread it wide by using it in the courts of law, the lower levels of administration and teaching it formally in schools all over north India. Moreover, they wrote primers, phrase books, dictionaries and grammars in it thus making it the most commonly known Indian language in their Indian empire. ... The second aspect of the British understanding of Hindustani is that they equated with Urdu and favoured the Perso-Arabic script for writing it. They did not favour the highly Persianized variety of it but, on the whole, their Hindustani was closer to easy, or commonly spoken, Urdu than it was to either the vernaculars of the Hindi belt or Sanskritized Hindi. This particular understanding was felt to favour Muslims, as Urdu was associated with Muslims, by Hindu nationalists who later opted for Hindi instead of Hindustani despite the widespread intelligibility of the latter.
Also pinging @ RegentsPark: @ Sattvic7: @ Uanfala: @ Anupam: @ Kwamikagami: @ Austronesier: @ Saqib:, @ Mar4d: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:36, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
There is no broad-field source, neither Colin P. Masica, in his book, The Indo-Aryan Languages, Cambridge University Press, 1993, nor George Cardona in his long Britannica article on Indo-Aryan Languages nor the articles on Hindi and Urdu respectively by Michael Shapiro and Ruth Laila Schmidt in Jain/Cardona edited Indo-Aryan Languages, Routledge, 2003, has anything on " Hindustani grammar," or " Hindustani phonology." Masica says in his glossary at the end of the book, p 430:
‘Hindustani’ - term referring to common colloquial base of HINDI and URDU and to its function as lingua franca over much of India, much in vogue during Independence movement as expression of national unity; after Partition in 1947 and subsequent linguistic polarization it fell into disfavor; census of 1951 registered an enormous decline (86-98 per cent) in no. of persons declaring it their mother tongue (the majority of HINDI speakers and many URDU speakers had done so in previous censuses); trend continued in subsequent censuses: only 11,053 returned it in 1971, mostly from S India; [see Khubchandani 1983: 90-1].
I have a very simple proposal.
At present the names of this ancient language are Urdu and Hindi. However, the term ‘Hindustani’—used mostly by the British for this language—is still used for the spoken language of the popular, urban culture of North India and Pakistan. George Grierson, the pioneer of the modern scientific study of the languages of South Asia, defines these terms as follows:... These definitions, coming from the British period, are as valid today as they were in the early twentieth century. However, the term Hindustani is not used much in either India or Pakistan. That was the middle ground which has been lost, and what has replaced it are the names for the opposite ends of the continuum: Hindi and Urdu....
Hindōstānī is primarily the language of the Upper Gangetic Doab, and is also the lingua franca of India, capable of being written in both Persian and Dēvanāgarī characters, and without purism, avoiding alike the excessive use of either Persian or Sanskrit words when employed for literature. The name ‘Urdu’ can then be confined to that special variety of Hindōstānī in which Persian words are of frequent occurrence, and which hence can only be written in the Persian character, and, similarly, ‘Hindi’ can be confined to the form of Hindōstānī in which Sanskrit words abound, and which hence can only be written in the Dēvanāgarī character.
In other words, we cannot use Hindustani in any major way for a "geographically defined dialect of Hindi;" instead, we should keep the term "Hindustani" for Urdu as promoted by the British during the period 1800 to 1947. We especially cannot use the term for the language of Bollywood songs, with an occasional smattering of Urdu words. The British manuals on Hindustani listed above make it abundantly clear that a Bollywood aficionado (not well-versed in the Urdu script) would be clueless in the face of their prospective use. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)"The earlier grammars and dictionaries made it possible for the British government to replace Persian with vernacular languages at the lower levels of judicial and revenue administration in 1837, that is, to standardize and index terminology for official use and provide for its translation to the language of the ultimate ruling authority, English. For such purposes, Hindustani was equated with Urdu, as opposed to any geographically defined dialect of Hindi and was given official status through large parts of north India. Written in the Persian script with a largely Persian and, via Persian, an Arabic vocabulary, Urdu stood at the shortest distance from the previous situation and was easily attainable by the same personnel. In the wake of this official transformation, the British government began to make its first significant efforts on behalf of vernacular education. The earliest controversies over Hindi versus Urdu apparently took place among the British because some officials were anxious to uproot the Mughal gentry by replacing Urdu with a still unformulated standard of Hindi."
Please do not comment in this section; please do so in the section below.
Samples of OR etc
|
---|
We have a page on Wikipedia Central Indo-Aryan languages. It is being referenced on this page to demonstrate that both Hindi and Urdu, Hindi-Urdu, and Hindustani are "Central Indo-Aryan Language." Here is how this page has been written:
Subject to subsequent revision, the following is the proposed list of eleven volumes for the Linguistic Survey of India.
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
References
books.google.co.uk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
All the citations above are included in the last version that I wrote. In the first footnotes there, it is clear from both Masica and Cardona/Jain's Indo Aryan Lanugages that the name Hindustani is not used any more. It is an obsolete name. It is archaic. It is only informally used for the common syntactic and lexical base of the Indo-Aryan vernaculars of the Upper Ganges Valley. All the quotes that you are repeating here for the ad nauseam are already there in that version. If you want to creat a new page on Hindi Urdu (which is not piped to Hindustani) be my guest. But the term Hindustani is not used for a living language. I will be putting POV templates on the page. Please do not remove it. I know what I'm doing. And I will purue other forms of dispute resolution on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Hindustani officially disappeared after 1947; neither Schedule VIII of the Constitution of India, which enumerates the languages of India, nor the official documents of Pakistan make even a cursory mention of it (G. C. Narang, personal communication). Unofficially, the Hindustani lingua franca is a fully functioning vernacular link language in India, Pakistan and among the South Asian diaspora." (p. 319) which basically means after the independence the term 'Hindustani' ceased to be used, and was replaced by "Hindi" and "Urdu" in India and Pakistan respectively, not that "Hindustani" ceased to exist but it just that people stopped using that term.
— page 319.
@ Fowler&fowler: You have on several occasions (e.g. [1]) implied with your comments that the other editors in this discussion lack the appropriate competence in the subject of this article. In this context, can you please explain the following two related statements which you have made earlier in the discussion:
More spefically I ask: 1. What has the genealogical classification of a language ("Central Indo-Aryan") to do with a "label of a normative language variety"? 2. Can you a provide source which classifies Hindustani anything other than "Central Indo-Aryan"? Thank you. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
@ Fowler&fowler::I understand your concern regarding Hindi-POV promoters, it can indeed be discussed here and I will definitely support a neutral POV provided it is backed by reliable sources. As for your claim that Hindustani is "dead" or "not a living language", it stands as a fallacy. Hindustani exists as a fully functioning living language except with a different nomenclature. If you think otherwise, I am absolutely sorry for you! - Sattvic7 ( talk) 16:45, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Really? I have made my arguments all backed by citations (with quotes). It is, my friend, you with your wishful theories beating about the bush. Here are the citations that I earlier provided to show you that Hindustani is "Central Indo-Aryan" [1] [2] and I also cited Cardona(2003) to prove that Hindustani is not dead language. But I should've know that I was beating a dead horse. In my opinion, the template should be removed as soon as possible, we all are just wasting our time. This discussion is gonna go nowhere from here. - Sattvic7 ( talk) 18:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
References
Here is a nice quote from a text in a tertiary source. It starts:
Hindustani language, lingua franca of northern India and Pakistan. Two variants of Hindustani, Urdu and Hindi, are official languages in Pakistan and India, respectively.
This is not really a far cry from the current version of the lede, which – among other things – is so vehemently contested by a single editor. Less elaborate maybe, but the "template" is the same: lemma is "Hindustani", a living language, with two standardized variants called "Hindi" and "Urdu". The same text ends as follows:
More than 100 million individuals, including more than 50 million people in India, speak Urdu; many of these individuals may actually use Hindustani for ordinary communication. Approximately 550 million people speak Hindi, and sizable portions of this group, especially those who live in cities, are known to use Hindustani rather than Sanskritized Hindi in ordinary speech. Thus, while Hindustani may not survive as a literary language, it continues to thrive as a vernacular.
These quotes are from Encyclopædia Britannica, entry "Hindustani language". @ Kautilya3: See, we actually can trust Britannica; less trustworthy, however, is Britannica + cherry picking. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:59, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Note:Please do not comment in this section; do so only in the subsection below.
Thesis: There is no living "Hindustani language."
I became interested in the page Hindustani language over a month ago when I began to think about polishing and updating a page Company rule in India for eventual submission as a Featured Article Candidate. I could see right away that the Hindustani language page had been subject to major OR, Synthesis, and POV promotion. Hindustani is a historical term. It was applied to a language, which was mostly identified with Urdu, during both Company rule in India and British Raj days. Although the term "Hindustani," had been used before occasionally, it began to see wider and more systematic use after the Anglo-Maratha wars when the Company acquired the Ceded and Conquered Provinces (the old United Provinces minus Oudh/Awadh). Lord Wellesley proposed that all Company civil servants should have basic tools of communication with the new and very large populations whose responsibility of governance now rested on their shoulders. Knowledgable people at the Company thought that a simplified version of the Urdu language of the Mughals would be that language. At Fort William College in Calcutta, a basic course in this simple language was created and Company officials were thereafter required to take the course and pass an exam. The term "Hindustani," was typically not applied to Urdu poetry (say, of Mir Taqi Mir, which was highly Persianized) but more for the proposed language of legal documents (wills, land sales, etc). It remained so until the British left. I have several such documents from the 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact, Urdu Prose, and later Hindi itself, both prose and poetry, in the form now defined, arose at Fort William College. In the first half of the 20th century, Gandhi and some other Indian nationalists—worrying about an eventual successor state to the British Raj, its languages of administration, and some way of accommodating Hindi—proposed that an even more simple version of the Hindustani that could either continue to be written in Perso-Arabic or in the rapidly but newly standardized Hindi in Devanagari. With that conviction, Gandhi began to learn the Perso-Arabic script (and by the early 1930s was writing simple letters in it) and also started the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha, an organization for promoting Hindi in South India (see the history of the page.) In the end, however, it was not Hindustani, but Hindi that became the official language of India, and the subject of major promotion by the state. That was it. Very rapidly the term "Hindustani" disappeared. (See David Lelyveld's brilliant article: Colonial Knowledge and the Fate of Hindustani, Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 665-682 (18 pages), JSTOR url.) Neither the governments of India nor Pakistan has made even a cursory reference to Hindustani after 1947. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Since @ Kautilya3: had mentioned Tariq Rahman, what Hindustani was is eloquently summed up in the conclusion of Tariq Rahman's article, "British Learning of Hindustani":
Hindustani was the name the British gave to Urdu in India. They imagined it as an India-wide language; a lingua franca which it probably was not before their arrival. They spread it all over the country by using it in the army, to talk to servants and subordinates. They also spread it wide by using it in the courts of law, the lower levels of administration and teaching it formally in schools all over north India. Moreover, they wrote primers, phrase books, dictionaries and grammars in it thus making it the most commonly known Indian language in their Indian empire. ... The second aspect of the British understanding of Hindustani is that they equated with Urdu and favoured the Perso-Arabic script for writing it. They did not favour the highly Persianized variety of it but, on the whole, their Hindustani was closer to easy, or commonly spoken, Urdu than it was to either the vernaculars of the Hindi belt or Sanskritized Hindi. This particular understanding was felt to favour Muslims, as Urdu was associated with Muslims, by Hindu nationalists who later opted for Hindi instead of Hindustani despite the widespread intelligibility of the latter.
Also pinging @ RegentsPark: @ Sattvic7: @ Uanfala: @ Anupam: @ Kwamikagami: @ Austronesier: @ Saqib:, @ Mar4d: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:36, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
There is no broad-field source, neither Colin P. Masica, in his book, The Indo-Aryan Languages, Cambridge University Press, 1993, nor George Cardona in his long Britannica article on Indo-Aryan Languages nor the articles on Hindi and Urdu respectively by Michael Shapiro and Ruth Laila Schmidt in Jain/Cardona edited Indo-Aryan Languages, Routledge, 2003, has anything on " Hindustani grammar," or " Hindustani phonology." Masica says in his glossary at the end of the book, p 430:
‘Hindustani’ - term referring to common colloquial base of HINDI and URDU and to its function as lingua franca over much of India, much in vogue during Independence movement as expression of national unity; after Partition in 1947 and subsequent linguistic polarization it fell into disfavor; census of 1951 registered an enormous decline (86-98 per cent) in no. of persons declaring it their mother tongue (the majority of HINDI speakers and many URDU speakers had done so in previous censuses); trend continued in subsequent censuses: only 11,053 returned it in 1971, mostly from S India; [see Khubchandani 1983: 90-1].
I have a very simple proposal.
At present the names of this ancient language are Urdu and Hindi. However, the term ‘Hindustani’—used mostly by the British for this language—is still used for the spoken language of the popular, urban culture of North India and Pakistan. George Grierson, the pioneer of the modern scientific study of the languages of South Asia, defines these terms as follows:... These definitions, coming from the British period, are as valid today as they were in the early twentieth century. However, the term Hindustani is not used much in either India or Pakistan. That was the middle ground which has been lost, and what has replaced it are the names for the opposite ends of the continuum: Hindi and Urdu....
Hindōstānī is primarily the language of the Upper Gangetic Doab, and is also the lingua franca of India, capable of being written in both Persian and Dēvanāgarī characters, and without purism, avoiding alike the excessive use of either Persian or Sanskrit words when employed for literature. The name ‘Urdu’ can then be confined to that special variety of Hindōstānī in which Persian words are of frequent occurrence, and which hence can only be written in the Persian character, and, similarly, ‘Hindi’ can be confined to the form of Hindōstānī in which Sanskrit words abound, and which hence can only be written in the Dēvanāgarī character.
In other words, we cannot use Hindustani in any major way for a "geographically defined dialect of Hindi;" instead, we should keep the term "Hindustani" for Urdu as promoted by the British during the period 1800 to 1947. We especially cannot use the term for the language of Bollywood songs, with an occasional smattering of Urdu words. The British manuals on Hindustani listed above make it abundantly clear that a Bollywood aficionado (not well-versed in the Urdu script) would be clueless in the face of their prospective use. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)"The earlier grammars and dictionaries made it possible for the British government to replace Persian with vernacular languages at the lower levels of judicial and revenue administration in 1837, that is, to standardize and index terminology for official use and provide for its translation to the language of the ultimate ruling authority, English. For such purposes, Hindustani was equated with Urdu, as opposed to any geographically defined dialect of Hindi and was given official status through large parts of north India. Written in the Persian script with a largely Persian and, via Persian, an Arabic vocabulary, Urdu stood at the shortest distance from the previous situation and was easily attainable by the same personnel. In the wake of this official transformation, the British government began to make its first significant efforts on behalf of vernacular education. The earliest controversies over Hindi versus Urdu apparently took place among the British because some officials were anxious to uproot the Mughal gentry by replacing Urdu with a still unformulated standard of Hindi."
Please do not comment in this section; please do so in the section below.
Samples of OR etc
|
---|
We have a page on Wikipedia Central Indo-Aryan languages. It is being referenced on this page to demonstrate that both Hindi and Urdu, Hindi-Urdu, and Hindustani are "Central Indo-Aryan Language." Here is how this page has been written:
Subject to subsequent revision, the following is the proposed list of eleven volumes for the Linguistic Survey of India.
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
References
books.google.co.uk
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).