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I see that the former Polish clans page was merged into here. And interesting article, but unfortunately unsupported by references. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest to intermix this article with " Polish heraldry", removing overlaps, with Heraldic family being a sub-article. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The names of Scottish clans, e.g. " Clan Donald", do not contain the preposition "of"? Why, on Wikipedia, do the names of " Polish clans", e.g., " Clan of Ostoja"?
It should be simply "Clan Ostoja".
I propose that "of" be deleted, on Wikipedia, from the names of "Polish clans".
I further suggest that the individual Polish "clans" be renamed to " heraldic families", consistent with the title of the present article. As this article explains, "Membership in a Polish clan does not always connote consanguinity or even territoriality, as do[es membership in a] Scottish clan... For this reason, rather than being parallel to the Scottish-clan model, the Polish clan system may be considered as being more akin to the Scandinavian ætt and the Germanic sippia."
Thus, use of the Scottish term "clan" is misleading, and it should be replaced by "heraldic family", which is an accurate rendering of the Polish term, "ród herbowy".
"Clan of Ostoja", for example, would then be rendered as "Heraldic Family Ostoja". Nihil novi ( talk) 07:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Membership in a Scottish or other kind of clan was not a mark of noble status. Any Scot might—and generally did—belong to a clan.
By contrast, membership in a Polish or, later, Polish-Lithuanian heraldic family ("herb") was a mark of noble status that was shared with only some 10% of the general population of the country.
Therefore I think we shouldn't confuse things by referring to a Polish "heraldic family" ("herb"), e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja", as a "clan", e.g., " clan Ostoja".
I therefore propose that, in the article " Heraldic family", we delete the expression "heraldic clan" as a synonym for "heraldic family"; and that each heraldic family be called a "heraldic family", e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja" (rather than " clan Ostoja").
Nihil novi ( talk) 00:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Somebody created a confusion by changing the article content. Heralidic family was a unique Polish concept in Europe and page move was meaningless. the term :Polish heraldic families" implies thre we non-polish heraaldic families, which is not true. I am going to undo inappropriate change of the lede. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Dear >t, this is an encyclopaedia and the majority of readers are neither Polish nor Polish speakers, therefore it is helpful for the interested reader to know that the subject concerns Polish heraldry. It would be helpful not to re-introduce poor English grammar after it has been corrected. Regards, -- Po Kadzieli ( talk) 11:15, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
This section contains useful material but is badly in need of editing for clarity. Nihil novi ( talk) 07:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello t. If it's patently a 'war of editions' what is there further to say? Regards, -- Po Kadzieli ( talk) 15:55, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Heraldic clan per overwhelming consensus. No such user ( talk) 09:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Heraldic family →
Polish clans – Rename back to "
Polish clans" as it was before and more correct. There is no source or publication that ever use "Heraldic family", not even in Polish since it would be translated into "Heraldic clan". The article is of very poor quality and missleading, sources cannot be concidered as reliable or of any value. This article deserve to be delated since it do more harm than good. However, it is possible to improve or completely rewrite adding recent sources and publications on subject. If so, article name should be proper because nobody understand what "Heraldic family" is, since such term simply does not exist. It is possible to use term "Heraldic Clan" inside the article and explain its origin
camdan (
talk) 10:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.
Andrewa (
talk)
13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Polish dictionary for Klan ( http://sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/klan.html):
1. «skonsolidowana, wielopokoleniowa rodzina» - this is for Polish families, bloodrelated since generations 2. «hermetyczna grupa ludzi wzajemnie się popierających» - Hermetic group of people that support each other 3. «w Irlandii i Szkocji: patriarchalna wspólnota rodowa z silną władzą naczelnika» - In Ireland and Scottland...
Second apply on Polish Clans perfectly. Why? I give two simple examples. House of Odrowąż is a family with family nest, not a Clan. In 14th and 15th century, family members created names that refer to their properties and around year 1500 there is now have a family with almost 100 different names - still a family. Family adopt some members through marriage or of some other reason and its not just family anymore, it turned to a Clan. As in all the Clans, You see that members live in groups, always ready to support each other military, or ecomnomically - now You have "Hermetic group of people that support each other". You have a Clan, not family! Much later, during Partitions of Poland lot of families that where not Clan members, started to use Odrowąż CoA. Many reasons but the most important is that Clan is not a Clan anymore but "Heraldic Clan". Heraldic, because only thing what relate some families with the clan is the CoA.
Second example is Ostoja where Ostoja is a Battle Cry for military group, maybe 30-40 knights. So its not a family. Is it a Clan? Yes, because like in Clan of Odrowąż, families settled down in groups making very similar Clan structure. Those 30-40 families become over 150 families with different names after their properties. in 15th century, Clan invited several families of Russian origin, all from Novgorod and they joined the Clan, settled down in Lithuania. Question now, is it still a Clan or is it now "Heraldic Clan"? Yes it is still a clan, Russian or Ruthenian group closely cooperated with other Clan groups. Then from the time of partition, we see some 80 families that have no connection to the Clan, only that documents tell that they sign with Ostoja CoA. Now its clearly "Heraldic Clan". In almost all the cases where some families sign a CoA without having any earlier connection to the Clan, there is a question of mistake or falsery. camdan ( talk) 23:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology#Polish_heraldry_and_genealogy initiated by Camdan about how to correctly handle historical Polish concepts "ród", "ród herbowy" vs. "House" & "Clan", etc. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I am relisting because I think we may have a valid consensus to move. But it is very difficult to tell when so much (not all) of the material in the long posts above is completely irrelevant. The closer doesn't just count the votes. We assess the arguments. See wp:closing instructions which, while less authoritative than the policy at wp:consensus, explains its application quite clearly, in my opinion.
Please all read WP:AT and, if you still think there is a valid case for a move based on this policy, I would appreciate you making that below. Similarly any objections based on this policy. The closer will then be able to assess consensus. TIA Andrewa ( talk) 13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
After reading the article several times I am still not the wiser about _what_ exactly constitutes such a clan and what's it's purpose.
From my layman's PoV a CoA serves to distinguish a certain family both in status and common ancestry from other families. Marriages, splits into several branches may result in new, derived CoAs. This is obviously not the case here, but the differences, reasons and consequences are hardly, if at all explained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CC:3F40:2500:3C4F:94F6:E316:7D98 ( talk) 13:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
I see that the former Polish clans page was merged into here. And interesting article, but unfortunately unsupported by references. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest to intermix this article with " Polish heraldry", removing overlaps, with Heraldic family being a sub-article. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The names of Scottish clans, e.g. " Clan Donald", do not contain the preposition "of"? Why, on Wikipedia, do the names of " Polish clans", e.g., " Clan of Ostoja"?
It should be simply "Clan Ostoja".
I propose that "of" be deleted, on Wikipedia, from the names of "Polish clans".
I further suggest that the individual Polish "clans" be renamed to " heraldic families", consistent with the title of the present article. As this article explains, "Membership in a Polish clan does not always connote consanguinity or even territoriality, as do[es membership in a] Scottish clan... For this reason, rather than being parallel to the Scottish-clan model, the Polish clan system may be considered as being more akin to the Scandinavian ætt and the Germanic sippia."
Thus, use of the Scottish term "clan" is misleading, and it should be replaced by "heraldic family", which is an accurate rendering of the Polish term, "ród herbowy".
"Clan of Ostoja", for example, would then be rendered as "Heraldic Family Ostoja". Nihil novi ( talk) 07:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Membership in a Scottish or other kind of clan was not a mark of noble status. Any Scot might—and generally did—belong to a clan.
By contrast, membership in a Polish or, later, Polish-Lithuanian heraldic family ("herb") was a mark of noble status that was shared with only some 10% of the general population of the country.
Therefore I think we shouldn't confuse things by referring to a Polish "heraldic family" ("herb"), e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja", as a "clan", e.g., " clan Ostoja".
I therefore propose that, in the article " Heraldic family", we delete the expression "heraldic clan" as a synonym for "heraldic family"; and that each heraldic family be called a "heraldic family", e.g., "heraldic family Ostoja" (rather than " clan Ostoja").
Nihil novi ( talk) 00:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Somebody created a confusion by changing the article content. Heralidic family was a unique Polish concept in Europe and page move was meaningless. the term :Polish heraldic families" implies thre we non-polish heraaldic families, which is not true. I am going to undo inappropriate change of the lede. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Dear >t, this is an encyclopaedia and the majority of readers are neither Polish nor Polish speakers, therefore it is helpful for the interested reader to know that the subject concerns Polish heraldry. It would be helpful not to re-introduce poor English grammar after it has been corrected. Regards, -- Po Kadzieli ( talk) 11:15, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
This section contains useful material but is badly in need of editing for clarity. Nihil novi ( talk) 07:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello t. If it's patently a 'war of editions' what is there further to say? Regards, -- Po Kadzieli ( talk) 15:55, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Heraldic clan per overwhelming consensus. No such user ( talk) 09:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Heraldic family →
Polish clans – Rename back to "
Polish clans" as it was before and more correct. There is no source or publication that ever use "Heraldic family", not even in Polish since it would be translated into "Heraldic clan". The article is of very poor quality and missleading, sources cannot be concidered as reliable or of any value. This article deserve to be delated since it do more harm than good. However, it is possible to improve or completely rewrite adding recent sources and publications on subject. If so, article name should be proper because nobody understand what "Heraldic family" is, since such term simply does not exist. It is possible to use term "Heraldic Clan" inside the article and explain its origin
camdan (
talk) 10:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.
Andrewa (
talk)
13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Polish dictionary for Klan ( http://sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/klan.html):
1. «skonsolidowana, wielopokoleniowa rodzina» - this is for Polish families, bloodrelated since generations 2. «hermetyczna grupa ludzi wzajemnie się popierających» - Hermetic group of people that support each other 3. «w Irlandii i Szkocji: patriarchalna wspólnota rodowa z silną władzą naczelnika» - In Ireland and Scottland...
Second apply on Polish Clans perfectly. Why? I give two simple examples. House of Odrowąż is a family with family nest, not a Clan. In 14th and 15th century, family members created names that refer to their properties and around year 1500 there is now have a family with almost 100 different names - still a family. Family adopt some members through marriage or of some other reason and its not just family anymore, it turned to a Clan. As in all the Clans, You see that members live in groups, always ready to support each other military, or ecomnomically - now You have "Hermetic group of people that support each other". You have a Clan, not family! Much later, during Partitions of Poland lot of families that where not Clan members, started to use Odrowąż CoA. Many reasons but the most important is that Clan is not a Clan anymore but "Heraldic Clan". Heraldic, because only thing what relate some families with the clan is the CoA.
Second example is Ostoja where Ostoja is a Battle Cry for military group, maybe 30-40 knights. So its not a family. Is it a Clan? Yes, because like in Clan of Odrowąż, families settled down in groups making very similar Clan structure. Those 30-40 families become over 150 families with different names after their properties. in 15th century, Clan invited several families of Russian origin, all from Novgorod and they joined the Clan, settled down in Lithuania. Question now, is it still a Clan or is it now "Heraldic Clan"? Yes it is still a clan, Russian or Ruthenian group closely cooperated with other Clan groups. Then from the time of partition, we see some 80 families that have no connection to the Clan, only that documents tell that they sign with Ostoja CoA. Now its clearly "Heraldic Clan". In almost all the cases where some families sign a CoA without having any earlier connection to the Clan, there is a question of mistake or falsery. camdan ( talk) 23:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology#Polish_heraldry_and_genealogy initiated by Camdan about how to correctly handle historical Polish concepts "ród", "ród herbowy" vs. "House" & "Clan", etc. Staszek Lem ( talk) 18:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I am relisting because I think we may have a valid consensus to move. But it is very difficult to tell when so much (not all) of the material in the long posts above is completely irrelevant. The closer doesn't just count the votes. We assess the arguments. See wp:closing instructions which, while less authoritative than the policy at wp:consensus, explains its application quite clearly, in my opinion.
Please all read WP:AT and, if you still think there is a valid case for a move based on this policy, I would appreciate you making that below. Similarly any objections based on this policy. The closer will then be able to assess consensus. TIA Andrewa ( talk) 13:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
After reading the article several times I am still not the wiser about _what_ exactly constitutes such a clan and what's it's purpose.
From my layman's PoV a CoA serves to distinguish a certain family both in status and common ancestry from other families. Marriages, splits into several branches may result in new, derived CoAs. This is obviously not the case here, but the differences, reasons and consequences are hardly, if at all explained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CC:3F40:2500:3C4F:94F6:E316:7D98 ( talk) 13:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)