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A discussion to work-up (or have) whether Dr. Kurbanov is "worthy of trust" on "History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire)" has been initiated at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard -> AYDOGDY KURBANOV on History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire) And, to neutrally have a firm decision on whether the source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) can be cited in the concerned WP Articles. Please note that at the present moment, this very source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) is cited as much as 6 times in this WP Article. Comments are Welcome :) ← Abstruce 18:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
This part is in shambles, at the moment. I think it would be best to, first of all state, what all the primary (anceint) sources say on the arrival of the Hephthalites, and then also then state what modern scholars favour/ interpret. I think that is the only way of dealing with what is otherwise a very mysterious origo gentis. TO be done soon . . . Slovenski Volk ( talk) 23:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
The article on Uar should be merged into this one, becuase it should not even exist. Simply, there is no scholarly concensus that the middle Chinese translation of Hua is even Var !! Whatever the case, the Hua were a subset of the Hephthalites, and having a separate article is redundant, duplicating and pointless. The uar article is moreover mostly of a stub quality. Slovenski Volk ( talk) 01:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
If right Iranian category, must right Turkic category. Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
You .. people categorize nations with genes? How come ? Because Europoid genes came from Western Asia.. ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.142.140.40 ( talk) 12:55, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 5 7 16:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – See this ngram. The people, not the empire, is what people usually speak of. --Relisted. George Ho ( talk) 05:27, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Srnec ( talk) 23:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
According to Procopius of Caesarea, Hephthalites lifed in cities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.244.39.199 ( talk) 14:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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Dont remove Afghanistan tempalte. Infact the only related template is the Afgghan one. Why would you remove that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 ( talk) 13:46, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move as proposed. Clear consensus with only one outlier objection that was countered and the counter was not refuted. ( non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 18:08, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – The name of this article is innaccurate, not to mention less common [5] (Hephthalites also has over 6000-7000 results than Hephthalite Empire in google books); the Hephthalite state was split into several minor kingdoms after the Battle of Bukhara in 557, which makes the term 'Hephthalites' much more accurate, since it wasn't a single entity all of its history. This is mentioned in several academic sources, such as Iranica and History of Civilizations of Central Asia, who favours the term 'Hephthalites' as well;
"Yet, though the power of the Hephthalites was destroyed in Transoxania, Hephthalite kingdoms remained in Afghanistan, of which fragments survived for some time even after the Arab invasions." [6]
"Small Hephthalite principalities continued to exist in southern Tajikistan and Afghanistan for a long time; some of them (in particular Kabul) remained independent" [7] -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 16:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
Just to clarify, B. A. Litvinsky in the History of Civilizations of Central Asia quoted above does title his overall chapter as ‘The Hephthalite Empire’.
Frantz Grenet, who also specializes in pre-Islamic Central Asian history, also refers to the polity under the Hephthalites as an empire:
“Earlier still, in the fifth century, the empire of the Hephthalite Huns whose aristocracy...” (Refocusing Central Asia, F. Grenet, Inaugural Lecture delivered on Thursday 7 November 2013)
EdenKZD ( talk) 21:13, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Ermenrich, HistoryofIran, Kansas Bear, KIENGIR, LouisAragon, PericlesofAthens, and Wikaviani: Your opinion? -- Wario-Man ( talk) 07:46, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
They seem to have been Iranized (Bactrianized?) Turks who immigrated from the Altaic Mountains to Bactria/Tokharistan, that is at least per the excellent, new and detailed information that ReOrienting the Sasanians: East Iran in Late Antiquity gives regarding them. The source also goes in depth about their relations with the Huns, and that unlike the traditional nomadic Huns, they seem to have been a generally settled people (or at least semi-nomadic). There is much more than that, but this article ultimately needs a heavy rewriting. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 16:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible that they are descents of the israelite tribe of Naftali? Ilanohsky ( talk) 23:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
In hebrew Naftali is also pronounced with an 'E' instead of an 'A', they are belived to have become a tribe in central asia, they were talking aramaic and iranian languages, as modern hebrew back then was aramaic and it fits with their culture and differences. Any scientific opinion on this. Ilanohsky ( talk) 23:21, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Should be neutralized just like Huns and some other similar articles. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 22:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Kami2018 I have given you clear reasons for the removal, your edit wars wont bring you anywhere. The part which I removed was a part about Rajputs having Hephtalite origins, however the basis for that theory, per the sources and per basic knowledge which is required if you are edit warring on a article like this, is that Nezaks are Hephtalites, as we know that view is outdated, the Nezaks and Hephtalites are not the same, hope User:पाटलिपुत्र can confirm this -- Xerxes931 ( talk) 16:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
According to I.072/A (Liangshu), I.072/B (Liang zhigongtu) (quoted and translated in Balogh, ed. (2020)Hunnic Peoples in Central and South Asia: Sources for their Origin and History) the Hephthalites' language had to be translated by Tuyuhun, whose language has been identified by Vovin (2015) as one of the Para-Mongolic languages.("Some notes on the Tuyuhun (吐谷渾) language: in the footsteps of Paul Pelliot". In Journal of Sino-Western Communications, Volume 7, Issue 2 (December 2015).). Also, on page 260 of his 1962 article "The Consonantal System of Old Chinese. Part II", linguist & Sinologist Pulleyblank wrote:
We are told that in the Liang-shu that the people of Hua (i.e. the Hephthalites) were illiterate and their language could only be understood when interpreted by the men of Ho-nan, (i.e. the T'u-yü-hun). This statement can be most easily understood if we suppose that the Hephthalites spoke a language which was the same as that of the T'u-yü-hun, or closely akin to it, therefore a Mongolian dialect (see Pelliot 1921).
Notwithstanding the connection among the Hephthalites, the Pannonian Avars, the Rouran, and the Wuhuan hypothesized by Pulleyblank, the thesis that at least some Hephthalites spoke a Para-Mongolic language, imho, is parsimonious: it requires the fewest assumptions (compared to, for example, the alternative thesis -that the Hephthalites spoke a Turkic lect- which requires one more assumption that the Tuyuhun interpreters, whose 1st language was a para-Monglic one, also spoke and understood a Turkic lect used by the Hephthalites so as to interpret for the latter).
What are your thoughts, User:पाटलिपुत्र, User:Xerxes931, User:HistoryofIran, User:Mann Mann, etc.? Erminwin ( talk) 14:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
the language spoken by the Yeda people was unique [...] there is a possibility that that the language of the Yeda [i.e. Hephthalites] was a hybrid or mixed language formed from frequent contact with languages such as Koguryo and Xianbei languages.
Yu suggests that the spoken language of the Hephthalites was unique and might have been a mixed variety of the Xianbei language and the Koguryǒ (高句麗) vernacular, considering their close proximity
@ Erminwin: Adding to Infobox: No, because it's not mainstream. Expanding/Adding to the relevant section: Yes. In my opinion, this articles needs a "Language" section just like many similar articles. -- Mann Mann ( talk) 02:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
The name of the Iranian Huns mentioned on this page is not mentioned in any historical article. While Huns is a general name given to nomadic peoples in the past, Iran is a geographical name and the geography of Iran has nothing to do with the hephthalite government. For this reason, the word Iranian Huns should be deleted. I tried to delete it but I encountered illogical behavior of Iranian History account. Atrmiles ( talk) 15:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
The name of the Iranian Huns mentioned on this page is not mentioned in any historical article. While Huns is a general name given to nomadic peoples in the past, Iran is a geographical name and the geography of Iran has nothing to do with the hephthalite government. For this reason, the word Iranian Huns should be deleted.
I tried to delete it but I encountered illogical behavior of Iranian History account.
Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not your personal feelings.
"Finally, even the name on the account is biased, how do you claim to be writing an unbiased article???"
I think it is very early to decide that hephthalites didnt went south of hindukush or into india. Still majority of sources consider alkons a part of hephthalites. Considering indian sources explicitly mentioned them by names such as " white huns" we still have much to learn. 84.210.149.236 ( talk) 16:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hephthalites article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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A graph should have been displayed here but
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A discussion to work-up (or have) whether Dr. Kurbanov is "worthy of trust" on "History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire)" has been initiated at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard -> AYDOGDY KURBANOV on History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire) And, to neutrally have a firm decision on whether the source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) can be cited in the concerned WP Articles. Please note that at the present moment, this very source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) is cited as much as 6 times in this WP Article. Comments are Welcome :) ← Abstruce 18:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
This part is in shambles, at the moment. I think it would be best to, first of all state, what all the primary (anceint) sources say on the arrival of the Hephthalites, and then also then state what modern scholars favour/ interpret. I think that is the only way of dealing with what is otherwise a very mysterious origo gentis. TO be done soon . . . Slovenski Volk ( talk) 23:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
The article on Uar should be merged into this one, becuase it should not even exist. Simply, there is no scholarly concensus that the middle Chinese translation of Hua is even Var !! Whatever the case, the Hua were a subset of the Hephthalites, and having a separate article is redundant, duplicating and pointless. The uar article is moreover mostly of a stub quality. Slovenski Volk ( talk) 01:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
If right Iranian category, must right Turkic category. Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
You .. people categorize nations with genes? How come ? Because Europoid genes came from Western Asia.. ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.142.140.40 ( talk) 12:55, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 5 7 16:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – See this ngram. The people, not the empire, is what people usually speak of. --Relisted. George Ho ( talk) 05:27, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Srnec ( talk) 23:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
According to Procopius of Caesarea, Hephthalites lifed in cities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.244.39.199 ( talk) 14:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Hephthalite Empire. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Dont remove Afghanistan tempalte. Infact the only related template is the Afgghan one. Why would you remove that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 ( talk) 13:46, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move as proposed. Clear consensus with only one outlier objection that was countered and the counter was not refuted. ( non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 18:08, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – The name of this article is innaccurate, not to mention less common [5] (Hephthalites also has over 6000-7000 results than Hephthalite Empire in google books); the Hephthalite state was split into several minor kingdoms after the Battle of Bukhara in 557, which makes the term 'Hephthalites' much more accurate, since it wasn't a single entity all of its history. This is mentioned in several academic sources, such as Iranica and History of Civilizations of Central Asia, who favours the term 'Hephthalites' as well;
"Yet, though the power of the Hephthalites was destroyed in Transoxania, Hephthalite kingdoms remained in Afghanistan, of which fragments survived for some time even after the Arab invasions." [6]
"Small Hephthalite principalities continued to exist in southern Tajikistan and Afghanistan for a long time; some of them (in particular Kabul) remained independent" [7] -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 16:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
Just to clarify, B. A. Litvinsky in the History of Civilizations of Central Asia quoted above does title his overall chapter as ‘The Hephthalite Empire’.
Frantz Grenet, who also specializes in pre-Islamic Central Asian history, also refers to the polity under the Hephthalites as an empire:
“Earlier still, in the fifth century, the empire of the Hephthalite Huns whose aristocracy...” (Refocusing Central Asia, F. Grenet, Inaugural Lecture delivered on Thursday 7 November 2013)
EdenKZD ( talk) 21:13, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Ermenrich, HistoryofIran, Kansas Bear, KIENGIR, LouisAragon, PericlesofAthens, and Wikaviani: Your opinion? -- Wario-Man ( talk) 07:46, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
They seem to have been Iranized (Bactrianized?) Turks who immigrated from the Altaic Mountains to Bactria/Tokharistan, that is at least per the excellent, new and detailed information that ReOrienting the Sasanians: East Iran in Late Antiquity gives regarding them. The source also goes in depth about their relations with the Huns, and that unlike the traditional nomadic Huns, they seem to have been a generally settled people (or at least semi-nomadic). There is much more than that, but this article ultimately needs a heavy rewriting. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 16:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible that they are descents of the israelite tribe of Naftali? Ilanohsky ( talk) 23:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
In hebrew Naftali is also pronounced with an 'E' instead of an 'A', they are belived to have become a tribe in central asia, they were talking aramaic and iranian languages, as modern hebrew back then was aramaic and it fits with their culture and differences. Any scientific opinion on this. Ilanohsky ( talk) 23:21, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Should be neutralized just like Huns and some other similar articles. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 22:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Kami2018 I have given you clear reasons for the removal, your edit wars wont bring you anywhere. The part which I removed was a part about Rajputs having Hephtalite origins, however the basis for that theory, per the sources and per basic knowledge which is required if you are edit warring on a article like this, is that Nezaks are Hephtalites, as we know that view is outdated, the Nezaks and Hephtalites are not the same, hope User:पाटलिपुत्र can confirm this -- Xerxes931 ( talk) 16:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
According to I.072/A (Liangshu), I.072/B (Liang zhigongtu) (quoted and translated in Balogh, ed. (2020)Hunnic Peoples in Central and South Asia: Sources for their Origin and History) the Hephthalites' language had to be translated by Tuyuhun, whose language has been identified by Vovin (2015) as one of the Para-Mongolic languages.("Some notes on the Tuyuhun (吐谷渾) language: in the footsteps of Paul Pelliot". In Journal of Sino-Western Communications, Volume 7, Issue 2 (December 2015).). Also, on page 260 of his 1962 article "The Consonantal System of Old Chinese. Part II", linguist & Sinologist Pulleyblank wrote:
We are told that in the Liang-shu that the people of Hua (i.e. the Hephthalites) were illiterate and their language could only be understood when interpreted by the men of Ho-nan, (i.e. the T'u-yü-hun). This statement can be most easily understood if we suppose that the Hephthalites spoke a language which was the same as that of the T'u-yü-hun, or closely akin to it, therefore a Mongolian dialect (see Pelliot 1921).
Notwithstanding the connection among the Hephthalites, the Pannonian Avars, the Rouran, and the Wuhuan hypothesized by Pulleyblank, the thesis that at least some Hephthalites spoke a Para-Mongolic language, imho, is parsimonious: it requires the fewest assumptions (compared to, for example, the alternative thesis -that the Hephthalites spoke a Turkic lect- which requires one more assumption that the Tuyuhun interpreters, whose 1st language was a para-Monglic one, also spoke and understood a Turkic lect used by the Hephthalites so as to interpret for the latter).
What are your thoughts, User:पाटलिपुत्र, User:Xerxes931, User:HistoryofIran, User:Mann Mann, etc.? Erminwin ( talk) 14:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
the language spoken by the Yeda people was unique [...] there is a possibility that that the language of the Yeda [i.e. Hephthalites] was a hybrid or mixed language formed from frequent contact with languages such as Koguryo and Xianbei languages.
Yu suggests that the spoken language of the Hephthalites was unique and might have been a mixed variety of the Xianbei language and the Koguryǒ (高句麗) vernacular, considering their close proximity
@ Erminwin: Adding to Infobox: No, because it's not mainstream. Expanding/Adding to the relevant section: Yes. In my opinion, this articles needs a "Language" section just like many similar articles. -- Mann Mann ( talk) 02:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
The name of the Iranian Huns mentioned on this page is not mentioned in any historical article. While Huns is a general name given to nomadic peoples in the past, Iran is a geographical name and the geography of Iran has nothing to do with the hephthalite government. For this reason, the word Iranian Huns should be deleted. I tried to delete it but I encountered illogical behavior of Iranian History account. Atrmiles ( talk) 15:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
The name of the Iranian Huns mentioned on this page is not mentioned in any historical article. While Huns is a general name given to nomadic peoples in the past, Iran is a geographical name and the geography of Iran has nothing to do with the hephthalite government. For this reason, the word Iranian Huns should be deleted.
I tried to delete it but I encountered illogical behavior of Iranian History account.
Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not your personal feelings.
"Finally, even the name on the account is biased, how do you claim to be writing an unbiased article???"
I think it is very early to decide that hephthalites didnt went south of hindukush or into india. Still majority of sources consider alkons a part of hephthalites. Considering indian sources explicitly mentioned them by names such as " white huns" we still have much to learn. 84.210.149.236 ( talk) 16:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)