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Hellenization and Hellenistic Culture are very different ideas and should be discussed in different articles.
As of right now, this page is nothing more than a definition, and it should be merged with Wiktionary. Does anyone have any objections? xxpor ( Talk | Contribs ) 17:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The origins of the Vlachs and Arvanites are irrelevant in here. The thing is that those peoples had distinct languages and cultures and they adopted/are adopting the Greek language and culture. bogdan 14:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
They do have a language, which is closer to Romanian than Modern Greek is to Ancient Greek.
Within this language, they have their own folklore: songs, poetry, stories and legends, which is an Aromanian culture. By Hellenization (and losing their language), all their Aromanian-language culture will be lost. bogdan 20:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Uiti, bogdan, ca nu vorbeste limba sa :) - FrancisTyers · 20:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have 2 questions: Is there a term "rehellenisation" used by the greek gouvernment ? are there sources attesting the modern use of the term "rehelenization" by the greek gvrnmnt ? Are there gvrnmnt institutions dealing with such a "rehellenisation" ? Criztu 15:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
bogdan 21:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Your question is answered by following the link above, "Oxford University Press (OUP) is a highly-respected publishing house and a department of the University of Oxford in England." - FrancisTyers · 22:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Strabo was writing three centuries after Alexander, long after any putative Hellenization would have taken place, so naturally Macedonia would be Greek to him. On the other hand, "Oxford University Press" facing the title page isn't a magical stamp of inarguable truth, either.
The simple fact is that there is plenty of evidence for a Macedonian ethnic Greek heritage going back to Mycenaean times and earlier, but also for the idea that "Greek culture" as practiced in the southern city-states was something a bit different that the Macedonian kings could choose to imitate. It doesn't help clarify matters to confuse these issues and keep talking past one another.-- Frippo ( talk) 17:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
At any rate you can always try the excavation reports on Aiane, Angelohori, Toumba in Thessaloniki... They all speak unequivocally about the presence of mycenean pottery and influences. The new evidence from Aiane is even more compelling. Two international symposia have already been organised on the subject and the proceedings have been published. Every decent "hellenist" with no axe to grind is well aware of all that... but then again there have been so many species of self styled "hellenists" going around lately...-- Giorgos Tzimas ( talk) 15:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing i never get my people claiming or trying to prove that the Macedonians were not Greek (although had the same language and believed in the same gods) is this: Have you ever seen in history a super power (which Macedonians were at the time compared to other city states and kingdoms) adopting the culture, language etc of its inferiors or its subjects?
[user: nefeligeretis] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nefeligeretis ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
István Vásáry's book is an excellent work, but it talks about the political and military development of the Cuman and/or Tatar tribes and their conflicts in the Balkans. It does not touch at all the subject of Greek/Slavic ethnology, so, I can't see how it is relevant in here. (It talks about some ethnological issues between the Romanians and Bulgarians, but that's because it's closely related to the subject) So, I'd like to know what chapter of it discusses about this Greek/Slavic issue. bogdan 19:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Hectorian 20:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've provided references for the existence of the term. -- Tēlex 11:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone's interested, I found a Greek book on the Vlachs [2]. They have put a few quotes on the website. Here are their translations:
I know that this is probably an unreliable source, but for general interest on how Greeks (and maybe Vlachs also if the author is a Vlach) view the Vlachs. -- Tēlex 21:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is by its nature an article about cultural assimilation (making something non-Greek to become Greek). It is presented as something very nice and smooth and noble: spreading the Greek culture among uneducated barbarians. Compare it with the similar articles Bulgarisation and Serbianization and you will see the difference. I have many sources, including neutral international ones (e.g. Carnegie commission) which show that Hellenization in most cases was forced and whole villages were killed by 'andanti'.
However, when I post this content on the page it is immediately deleted with personal threats to my talk page. Go easy, will you? I know that those facts are not pleasant for many Greek editors here and you try to hide them as well as you can but this is not Wikipedia policy. All views have to be presented. For persons who consistently delete such material, this is a most obvious disruptive editing WP:Vandalism. Lantonov 09:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The following talks were made in User:Lantonov talk page:
Hello, I have noticed a picture you have added in Hellenization article and I can not understand what it has to do with this article. It belongs to a series of propaganda posters published during the Balkan Wars by the Hellenic Army to annimate the soldiers, why put it here and not there? Should we add similar Serbian and Bulgarian posters? Kapnisma ? 07:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What more do you want? Yes the Hellenic Army DID use such posters for cruelty as the Bulgarian also did citation needed. Can't you see the Greek is wearing a military uniform? And so does the Bulgarian? And that this is supposed to be a battle? What this has to do with Hellenization? Just because the article from which you took the picture claims that this is supposed to be AFTER the Balkan Wars does not mean it is right Kapnisma ? 07:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Your neutral, reliable, and verified source is a Bulgarian site... And yes I DO doupt that Carnegie Commission used this poster to prove forced Hellenization these and similar posters were published during the Balkan Wars for propaganda reasons. Kapnisma ? 08:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What I see according to what you have written above is that instead of accusing me of disruptive editing the one who is trying to push his POV is you by altering the meaning and the contex of international reports. The one who has to prove his claims (that this poster is a proof of Hellenization provided by this commission) is you, not me. It's a sad thing when someone is doing what you do, breaking several Wiki policies, in order to establish your Bulgarian POV. And as long as you do not present us international sources for your claims this picture can not be placed there. And I will report it if you revert it. Kapnisma ? 08:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear greek, what would you say for that sentence from the artlicle Bulgariasation: "a reign of violence and terror was imposed in an effort to provoke a mass exodus of the inhabitants, those of refugee origin in particular"; is it not a Greek POV???
Or perhaps the Bulgarians were evil killing and descriminating the Greeks, while the Greek were always victims including during the mass massacres, persecution and helenization of Bulgarians following the Second Balkan War and WW1 on Greek territory in Macedonia and Thrace. Or the Greeks never persecuted Bulgarians??????? -- Gligan 09:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
As everyboby can see this particular user is trying to manipulate sources in order to confirm his claims (that this particular war poster was considered by Carnegie commission as a proof of Hellenization against Slavophone Greeks). When I asked him to provide a source in English, instead of Bulgarian, so that we can all verify his claims, he refused to do so and now he accuses me of vandalism and of personal threats against him.
Although calumniation is a pathetic way to act it is exactly what this user is doing here because he has no other way to verify his claims.
Kapnisma ? 11:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Carnegie Endowment for International peace (1993).
Other Balkan Wars: A 1913 Carnegie Endowment in Retrospect. 1779 Massachusetts Ave. NY-Washington DC 20036-2103, Phone:202.483.7600/Fax:202.483.1840, e-mail: info@CarnegieEndowment.org: Wasinhgton DC, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. pp. 413 pages.
ISBN
0-87003-032-9. {{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)CS1 maint: location (
link)
And a citation from the above book in which the picture is mentioned:
"Documents for Greek Macedonia that the Endowmen has, are not so detailed as those for Serbian Macedonia. But the data that we have, are enough to confirm the conclusion that in this case, too, even to the minute detail, is repeated everything that occurs in the assimilation of the Bulgarian population in South Macedonia (Voden, Kostur, Lerin). The procedure is very analogous to that applied to the assimilation of the population to the south. The only difference is in this that the two methods of assimilation and extermination in Greek Macedonia are applied more systemically and less humanely. "Are they a "human" race those "dirty" Slavs? They are not "anthropi" (humans). They are "arkoudi" (bears)." Such words are often found in the evidence given to us. They are connected in cruelty with the word that corresponds exactly to the term "Bulgarophagos" (Bulgarian-eater) - an emotion that is deliberately cultivated in the army and among the Greek population through patriotic verses and popular pictures (see Illustration). Some of those verses and pictures are found in the Appendix., etc"
Go on and find the book by the ISBN number, it is working.
And do not vandalize this page any more by deleting SOURCED, VERIFIABLE, and RELIABLE content. Lantonov 12:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Instead of providing this information from the beginning of our conversation you have choosen to do iy only after accusing me of being a vandal and of making personal attacks against you just because I wanted an English source...,
But still you and the above citation (IF it is exactly as you have presented it) fail to make to connection between a war poster and the Hellenization. My guess is that you are just trying to traffic on a source in order to present a good Bulgarian-bad Greek picture. Anyway I now have no objection in using this poster here until I found a source that proves what I say: not that Greeks did not tried to lingusticly assimilate Slavophone Greeks but that propaganda and war posters during the Balkan Wars have nothing to do with this article. Just a few weeks ago there was a greek newspaper article called Psycological and propaganda efforts during the Balkan Wars were it presented similar Greek, Bulgarian and Ottoman posters of that period. I will try to see if it includes this particular poster. Kapnisma ? 12:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
And please, stop that intimidatory altitude of yours this is your third warning, etc Kapnisma ? 12:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Again the same altitude... I do not have different views from you, man! My objection is the poster you have uploaded. It is a war poster not an example of Hellenization, you are only trying to create a good Bulgarian-bad Greek picture by trafficing on a source. Kapnisma ? 12:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Kapnisma ? 13:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not interested in nationalistic edit wars, so I am not going to deal with you any more. Hopefully, when someone else will read all these can easily inference what are your motives. Kapnisma ? 16:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Manipulate sources"? Weasel words again. First I "traffick" them, and now I "manipulate" them. How did I manipulate them? I painted the poster with Photoshop, and I composed the Carnegie report? How many words can you think about the act of citing sourced, verifiable, and reliable material? Instead of personal attacks, it is better to concentrate on the facts. The real problem is: Bulgarisation is very bad thing according to the article on it while Hellenization is a very good thing according to the article on it. I have stated this clearly in many places long before this discussion. Until this issue is solved, I, and everyone who likes the truth, feel uneasy. I am convinced that in this case, as in all others, it is best to follow the neutral point of view, stating the facts from reliable and neutral sources (not Greek, not Bulgarian) with a minimal comment or no comment at all (as I have done here).
Something else about this discussion strikes me as odd. Kapnisma ( talk · contribs) alleges above that those posters are issued by the "Hellenic Army". If this is so, since the army is under direct orders of the Greek government, it comes out that the Greek government at the time (1913) is responsible for instigating a genocide. Because in the Carnegie report there is nothing about who issued those posters, I prefer to disagree with the opinion that the Greek government is directly responsible for them and I suppose that they are ordered and published by some group or party in Greece with nationalistic agenda who may or may not be connected to the Greek government. Lantonov 05:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no international consensus on a definition of hellenisation in the modern era, partly because the issue is so charged with competing and partial views from various countries in the region ( and a single web source for the first). The same applies to the equally poorly evidenced concepts of 'de-hellenisation' and 're-hellenisation', and this subsection is clearly being used to promote various POVs.
Rd76767r 12:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the only solution to this POV-pushing is the removal of the hellenisation, bulgarisation and albanisation pages.
Rd76767r 22:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your motives and my opinion is that all (nation)ization pages be removed as they are a gate for POV pushing. However, I disapprove of your means (blanking pages) because this destroys efforts of other editors. Removing a page is done by an administrator, after reaching a consensus for doing so. Lantonov 06:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I added the expert tag -- please discuss at Talk:Hellenism#reorganization and foreign-language articles. Joriki ( talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a very interesting topic and must be treated accordingly, but copying verbatim, sentences and a whole paragraph from the sources is not the way to do it. Please rewrite. Additional references would be more than welcome. Have a look for instance at Victor Roudometof, "From Rum Millet to Greek Nation: Enlightenment, Secularization, and National Identity in Ottoman Balkan Society, 1453–1821" or even Shashko, Philip "Greece and the Intellectual Bases of the Bulgarian Renaissance" -if you are looking for supporting literature- and Zakythinos, Dionysios A. "The Making of Modern Greece From Byzantium to Independence" for a different view. For the role of the church you can try Runciman, Steven The Great Church in Captivity amongst others.-- Giorgos Tzimas ( talk) 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
""Hellenistic" is also, of course, still used to refer to the religion of the people who follow this religion today."
What religion this refers to is unclear: Greek Orthodox? Neo-Pagan reconstructions of Ancient Greek religion?
In addition, what this religion followed today has to do with hellenization is equally unclear. The line seems to have just been stuck in for no particular reason.
Winter Maiden ( talk) 19:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. As Cuchullain points out, WP:RETAIN is the relevant guideline and, for better or worse, it uses the first non-stub version as the marker. The analysis that the article has been at the "z" ever since the first non-stub version has not been refuted, hence there is a consensus in favour of the present title. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:26, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Hellenization →
Hellenisation – -izes and -ises both abound in this article. The article was first created at
Hellenisation with this page as a redirect,
[6]
[7] and one day later this page was created as a copy-paste content-fork of the other page but with the -ise spelling still prioritized in-line, and the original article made to redirect here.
[8]
[9] This means that an argument could be made that
WP:PRESERVE is on the side of the non-Oxford British spelling, and the page should be moved with all American spellings changed for internal consistency. However, an argument could also be made that since, for virtually all of this page's history, the -ize spelling has had pride of place as the title of the article (even if it has always been used sparingly within the article text) and so that we should give it priority. I'm neutral on whether the page actually should be moved (I generally prefer -ize spellings, but the mess that happened here makes me slightly inclined to favour moving the page back to its original title). Neither of the original two editors responsible for the mess is still active 11 years later.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや)
23:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
used -ize almost since the beginning; the article that used -ise was copy-pasted in here with -ise still prioritized, and apparently the text of the page has preferred -ise ever since. It's only the title that prioritizes -ize. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 21:29, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
this page has used -ize almost since the beginning, which appeared to be referring to the text of the article rather than just the title, but the text of the article has used both spellings interchangeably since almost the beginning, which means we need to choose one either way. The rest of your comment looked like you didn't understand ENGVAR and were assuming that the redirects will be deleted, but I decided not to point that out. Anyway, let's just drop it. We're both neutral, slightly leaning support. 'Nuff said. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
The statement "There exist Aromanians in Greece who claim that they have an Aromanian national identity rather than a Hellenic national identity and also claim that the Metaxas regime violently forced them to speak the Hellenic language and abandon their Aromanian language." is highly ambiguous, poor written and biased. Firstly, the phrase "There exist" could be interpreted in many ways: how many are these group of people that espouse this idea in Greece, are they a considerable portion of the Greek Aromanian group or a non-significant one but present? The phrase "forced them to speak the hellenic language" is historically non-based, the Aromanians were bilingual and they used the greek language in their ecclesiastic liturgy, trade and literature, the Aromanian language was mostly used in home and among kinsmen. The metaxas government simply forbade the use of Aromanian entirely in all aspects of life, this should be noted since it implies that the Aromanians were not a group that greatly distanced themselves from their neighbors during the ottoman era. Plus the syntax is wrong making the statement seem angrily promoting a singular view. As for the source it is based on, this site "newsbomb" which is in greek is not trustworthy, the article does not mention the author or the person or group that gave this interview as such it could be easily have been fabricated. I hope that the phrase been re-written as such: "While Greek Aromanians as a group have endorsed the Greek national identity contributing at the Greek War of Independence and providing to the Greek cause notable figures such as Ioannis Kolletis (Prime Minister Of Greece, founder of the concept of "The Great Idea"),Georgios Averoff and Evangelos Zappas (both of whom were national benefactors of early Greek Kingdom) there historically existed Aromanians of Greece who promoted a distict Aromanian identity fueled also by the enforcement of the Hellenic language in all aspects of life by the Metaxa Regime. Though there presence today is not high or influential to the whole group". — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiogenesLaertios ( talk • contribs) 13:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
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Hellenization and Hellenistic Culture are very different ideas and should be discussed in different articles.
As of right now, this page is nothing more than a definition, and it should be merged with Wiktionary. Does anyone have any objections? xxpor ( Talk | Contribs ) 17:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The origins of the Vlachs and Arvanites are irrelevant in here. The thing is that those peoples had distinct languages and cultures and they adopted/are adopting the Greek language and culture. bogdan 14:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
They do have a language, which is closer to Romanian than Modern Greek is to Ancient Greek.
Within this language, they have their own folklore: songs, poetry, stories and legends, which is an Aromanian culture. By Hellenization (and losing their language), all their Aromanian-language culture will be lost. bogdan 20:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Uiti, bogdan, ca nu vorbeste limba sa :) - FrancisTyers · 20:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have 2 questions: Is there a term "rehellenisation" used by the greek gouvernment ? are there sources attesting the modern use of the term "rehelenization" by the greek gvrnmnt ? Are there gvrnmnt institutions dealing with such a "rehellenisation" ? Criztu 15:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
bogdan 21:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Your question is answered by following the link above, "Oxford University Press (OUP) is a highly-respected publishing house and a department of the University of Oxford in England." - FrancisTyers · 22:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Strabo was writing three centuries after Alexander, long after any putative Hellenization would have taken place, so naturally Macedonia would be Greek to him. On the other hand, "Oxford University Press" facing the title page isn't a magical stamp of inarguable truth, either.
The simple fact is that there is plenty of evidence for a Macedonian ethnic Greek heritage going back to Mycenaean times and earlier, but also for the idea that "Greek culture" as practiced in the southern city-states was something a bit different that the Macedonian kings could choose to imitate. It doesn't help clarify matters to confuse these issues and keep talking past one another.-- Frippo ( talk) 17:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
At any rate you can always try the excavation reports on Aiane, Angelohori, Toumba in Thessaloniki... They all speak unequivocally about the presence of mycenean pottery and influences. The new evidence from Aiane is even more compelling. Two international symposia have already been organised on the subject and the proceedings have been published. Every decent "hellenist" with no axe to grind is well aware of all that... but then again there have been so many species of self styled "hellenists" going around lately...-- Giorgos Tzimas ( talk) 15:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing i never get my people claiming or trying to prove that the Macedonians were not Greek (although had the same language and believed in the same gods) is this: Have you ever seen in history a super power (which Macedonians were at the time compared to other city states and kingdoms) adopting the culture, language etc of its inferiors or its subjects?
[user: nefeligeretis] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nefeligeretis ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
István Vásáry's book is an excellent work, but it talks about the political and military development of the Cuman and/or Tatar tribes and their conflicts in the Balkans. It does not touch at all the subject of Greek/Slavic ethnology, so, I can't see how it is relevant in here. (It talks about some ethnological issues between the Romanians and Bulgarians, but that's because it's closely related to the subject) So, I'd like to know what chapter of it discusses about this Greek/Slavic issue. bogdan 19:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Hectorian 20:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've provided references for the existence of the term. -- Tēlex 11:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone's interested, I found a Greek book on the Vlachs [2]. They have put a few quotes on the website. Here are their translations:
I know that this is probably an unreliable source, but for general interest on how Greeks (and maybe Vlachs also if the author is a Vlach) view the Vlachs. -- Tēlex 21:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is by its nature an article about cultural assimilation (making something non-Greek to become Greek). It is presented as something very nice and smooth and noble: spreading the Greek culture among uneducated barbarians. Compare it with the similar articles Bulgarisation and Serbianization and you will see the difference. I have many sources, including neutral international ones (e.g. Carnegie commission) which show that Hellenization in most cases was forced and whole villages were killed by 'andanti'.
However, when I post this content on the page it is immediately deleted with personal threats to my talk page. Go easy, will you? I know that those facts are not pleasant for many Greek editors here and you try to hide them as well as you can but this is not Wikipedia policy. All views have to be presented. For persons who consistently delete such material, this is a most obvious disruptive editing WP:Vandalism. Lantonov 09:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The following talks were made in User:Lantonov talk page:
Hello, I have noticed a picture you have added in Hellenization article and I can not understand what it has to do with this article. It belongs to a series of propaganda posters published during the Balkan Wars by the Hellenic Army to annimate the soldiers, why put it here and not there? Should we add similar Serbian and Bulgarian posters? Kapnisma ? 07:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What more do you want? Yes the Hellenic Army DID use such posters for cruelty as the Bulgarian also did citation needed. Can't you see the Greek is wearing a military uniform? And so does the Bulgarian? And that this is supposed to be a battle? What this has to do with Hellenization? Just because the article from which you took the picture claims that this is supposed to be AFTER the Balkan Wars does not mean it is right Kapnisma ? 07:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Your neutral, reliable, and verified source is a Bulgarian site... And yes I DO doupt that Carnegie Commission used this poster to prove forced Hellenization these and similar posters were published during the Balkan Wars for propaganda reasons. Kapnisma ? 08:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
What I see according to what you have written above is that instead of accusing me of disruptive editing the one who is trying to push his POV is you by altering the meaning and the contex of international reports. The one who has to prove his claims (that this poster is a proof of Hellenization provided by this commission) is you, not me. It's a sad thing when someone is doing what you do, breaking several Wiki policies, in order to establish your Bulgarian POV. And as long as you do not present us international sources for your claims this picture can not be placed there. And I will report it if you revert it. Kapnisma ? 08:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear greek, what would you say for that sentence from the artlicle Bulgariasation: "a reign of violence and terror was imposed in an effort to provoke a mass exodus of the inhabitants, those of refugee origin in particular"; is it not a Greek POV???
Or perhaps the Bulgarians were evil killing and descriminating the Greeks, while the Greek were always victims including during the mass massacres, persecution and helenization of Bulgarians following the Second Balkan War and WW1 on Greek territory in Macedonia and Thrace. Or the Greeks never persecuted Bulgarians??????? -- Gligan 09:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
As everyboby can see this particular user is trying to manipulate sources in order to confirm his claims (that this particular war poster was considered by Carnegie commission as a proof of Hellenization against Slavophone Greeks). When I asked him to provide a source in English, instead of Bulgarian, so that we can all verify his claims, he refused to do so and now he accuses me of vandalism and of personal threats against him.
Although calumniation is a pathetic way to act it is exactly what this user is doing here because he has no other way to verify his claims.
Kapnisma ? 11:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Carnegie Endowment for International peace (1993).
Other Balkan Wars: A 1913 Carnegie Endowment in Retrospect. 1779 Massachusetts Ave. NY-Washington DC 20036-2103, Phone:202.483.7600/Fax:202.483.1840, e-mail: info@CarnegieEndowment.org: Wasinhgton DC, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. pp. 413 pages.
ISBN
0-87003-032-9. {{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)CS1 maint: location (
link)
And a citation from the above book in which the picture is mentioned:
"Documents for Greek Macedonia that the Endowmen has, are not so detailed as those for Serbian Macedonia. But the data that we have, are enough to confirm the conclusion that in this case, too, even to the minute detail, is repeated everything that occurs in the assimilation of the Bulgarian population in South Macedonia (Voden, Kostur, Lerin). The procedure is very analogous to that applied to the assimilation of the population to the south. The only difference is in this that the two methods of assimilation and extermination in Greek Macedonia are applied more systemically and less humanely. "Are they a "human" race those "dirty" Slavs? They are not "anthropi" (humans). They are "arkoudi" (bears)." Such words are often found in the evidence given to us. They are connected in cruelty with the word that corresponds exactly to the term "Bulgarophagos" (Bulgarian-eater) - an emotion that is deliberately cultivated in the army and among the Greek population through patriotic verses and popular pictures (see Illustration). Some of those verses and pictures are found in the Appendix., etc"
Go on and find the book by the ISBN number, it is working.
And do not vandalize this page any more by deleting SOURCED, VERIFIABLE, and RELIABLE content. Lantonov 12:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Instead of providing this information from the beginning of our conversation you have choosen to do iy only after accusing me of being a vandal and of making personal attacks against you just because I wanted an English source...,
But still you and the above citation (IF it is exactly as you have presented it) fail to make to connection between a war poster and the Hellenization. My guess is that you are just trying to traffic on a source in order to present a good Bulgarian-bad Greek picture. Anyway I now have no objection in using this poster here until I found a source that proves what I say: not that Greeks did not tried to lingusticly assimilate Slavophone Greeks but that propaganda and war posters during the Balkan Wars have nothing to do with this article. Just a few weeks ago there was a greek newspaper article called Psycological and propaganda efforts during the Balkan Wars were it presented similar Greek, Bulgarian and Ottoman posters of that period. I will try to see if it includes this particular poster. Kapnisma ? 12:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
And please, stop that intimidatory altitude of yours this is your third warning, etc Kapnisma ? 12:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Again the same altitude... I do not have different views from you, man! My objection is the poster you have uploaded. It is a war poster not an example of Hellenization, you are only trying to create a good Bulgarian-bad Greek picture by trafficing on a source. Kapnisma ? 12:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Kapnisma ? 13:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not interested in nationalistic edit wars, so I am not going to deal with you any more. Hopefully, when someone else will read all these can easily inference what are your motives. Kapnisma ? 16:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Manipulate sources"? Weasel words again. First I "traffick" them, and now I "manipulate" them. How did I manipulate them? I painted the poster with Photoshop, and I composed the Carnegie report? How many words can you think about the act of citing sourced, verifiable, and reliable material? Instead of personal attacks, it is better to concentrate on the facts. The real problem is: Bulgarisation is very bad thing according to the article on it while Hellenization is a very good thing according to the article on it. I have stated this clearly in many places long before this discussion. Until this issue is solved, I, and everyone who likes the truth, feel uneasy. I am convinced that in this case, as in all others, it is best to follow the neutral point of view, stating the facts from reliable and neutral sources (not Greek, not Bulgarian) with a minimal comment or no comment at all (as I have done here).
Something else about this discussion strikes me as odd. Kapnisma ( talk · contribs) alleges above that those posters are issued by the "Hellenic Army". If this is so, since the army is under direct orders of the Greek government, it comes out that the Greek government at the time (1913) is responsible for instigating a genocide. Because in the Carnegie report there is nothing about who issued those posters, I prefer to disagree with the opinion that the Greek government is directly responsible for them and I suppose that they are ordered and published by some group or party in Greece with nationalistic agenda who may or may not be connected to the Greek government. Lantonov 05:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no international consensus on a definition of hellenisation in the modern era, partly because the issue is so charged with competing and partial views from various countries in the region ( and a single web source for the first). The same applies to the equally poorly evidenced concepts of 'de-hellenisation' and 're-hellenisation', and this subsection is clearly being used to promote various POVs.
Rd76767r 12:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the only solution to this POV-pushing is the removal of the hellenisation, bulgarisation and albanisation pages.
Rd76767r 22:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your motives and my opinion is that all (nation)ization pages be removed as they are a gate for POV pushing. However, I disapprove of your means (blanking pages) because this destroys efforts of other editors. Removing a page is done by an administrator, after reaching a consensus for doing so. Lantonov 06:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I added the expert tag -- please discuss at Talk:Hellenism#reorganization and foreign-language articles. Joriki ( talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a very interesting topic and must be treated accordingly, but copying verbatim, sentences and a whole paragraph from the sources is not the way to do it. Please rewrite. Additional references would be more than welcome. Have a look for instance at Victor Roudometof, "From Rum Millet to Greek Nation: Enlightenment, Secularization, and National Identity in Ottoman Balkan Society, 1453–1821" or even Shashko, Philip "Greece and the Intellectual Bases of the Bulgarian Renaissance" -if you are looking for supporting literature- and Zakythinos, Dionysios A. "The Making of Modern Greece From Byzantium to Independence" for a different view. For the role of the church you can try Runciman, Steven The Great Church in Captivity amongst others.-- Giorgos Tzimas ( talk) 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
""Hellenistic" is also, of course, still used to refer to the religion of the people who follow this religion today."
What religion this refers to is unclear: Greek Orthodox? Neo-Pagan reconstructions of Ancient Greek religion?
In addition, what this religion followed today has to do with hellenization is equally unclear. The line seems to have just been stuck in for no particular reason.
Winter Maiden ( talk) 19:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. As Cuchullain points out, WP:RETAIN is the relevant guideline and, for better or worse, it uses the first non-stub version as the marker. The analysis that the article has been at the "z" ever since the first non-stub version has not been refuted, hence there is a consensus in favour of the present title. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:26, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Hellenization →
Hellenisation – -izes and -ises both abound in this article. The article was first created at
Hellenisation with this page as a redirect,
[6]
[7] and one day later this page was created as a copy-paste content-fork of the other page but with the -ise spelling still prioritized in-line, and the original article made to redirect here.
[8]
[9] This means that an argument could be made that
WP:PRESERVE is on the side of the non-Oxford British spelling, and the page should be moved with all American spellings changed for internal consistency. However, an argument could also be made that since, for virtually all of this page's history, the -ize spelling has had pride of place as the title of the article (even if it has always been used sparingly within the article text) and so that we should give it priority. I'm neutral on whether the page actually should be moved (I generally prefer -ize spellings, but the mess that happened here makes me slightly inclined to favour moving the page back to its original title). Neither of the original two editors responsible for the mess is still active 11 years later.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや)
23:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
used -ize almost since the beginning; the article that used -ise was copy-pasted in here with -ise still prioritized, and apparently the text of the page has preferred -ise ever since. It's only the title that prioritizes -ize. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 21:29, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
this page has used -ize almost since the beginning, which appeared to be referring to the text of the article rather than just the title, but the text of the article has used both spellings interchangeably since almost the beginning, which means we need to choose one either way. The rest of your comment looked like you didn't understand ENGVAR and were assuming that the redirects will be deleted, but I decided not to point that out. Anyway, let's just drop it. We're both neutral, slightly leaning support. 'Nuff said. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
The statement "There exist Aromanians in Greece who claim that they have an Aromanian national identity rather than a Hellenic national identity and also claim that the Metaxas regime violently forced them to speak the Hellenic language and abandon their Aromanian language." is highly ambiguous, poor written and biased. Firstly, the phrase "There exist" could be interpreted in many ways: how many are these group of people that espouse this idea in Greece, are they a considerable portion of the Greek Aromanian group or a non-significant one but present? The phrase "forced them to speak the hellenic language" is historically non-based, the Aromanians were bilingual and they used the greek language in their ecclesiastic liturgy, trade and literature, the Aromanian language was mostly used in home and among kinsmen. The metaxas government simply forbade the use of Aromanian entirely in all aspects of life, this should be noted since it implies that the Aromanians were not a group that greatly distanced themselves from their neighbors during the ottoman era. Plus the syntax is wrong making the statement seem angrily promoting a singular view. As for the source it is based on, this site "newsbomb" which is in greek is not trustworthy, the article does not mention the author or the person or group that gave this interview as such it could be easily have been fabricated. I hope that the phrase been re-written as such: "While Greek Aromanians as a group have endorsed the Greek national identity contributing at the Greek War of Independence and providing to the Greek cause notable figures such as Ioannis Kolletis (Prime Minister Of Greece, founder of the concept of "The Great Idea"),Georgios Averoff and Evangelos Zappas (both of whom were national benefactors of early Greek Kingdom) there historically existed Aromanians of Greece who promoted a distict Aromanian identity fueled also by the enforcement of the Hellenic language in all aspects of life by the Metaxa Regime. Though there presence today is not high or influential to the whole group". — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiogenesLaertios ( talk • contribs) 13:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
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